26 réponses à ce sujet

[D.C.]

First off, I'd like to say hello to everyone...I'm new to forums and I love the Mass Effect series.  I just finished the trilogy and decided to come on here for information on the new game and see all the controversy with the ending of ME 3 lol so it got me thinking and developed this theory (aka the devil's advocate). Warning this is gonna be long winded lol.

 

The ending with ME 3- The Indoctrination theory makes absolute sense (if you allow it, bare with me on this and I'll explain).  The final sequence of the game takes place in Sheppard's mind and everyone is mad because they see it as a cheap cop out by whomever you choose to blame because you didn't get the gratification right then and there you wanted.....but what if they are planning on bringing Sheppard back down the road?

 

Let me explain: If you played the game on Xbox 360 or PS3 there is no way to transfer everything you have ever done in the trilogy to PS4 or Xbox 1 as of now due to system compatibility.  Hence the new crew on the new game on the new platform.  Until they can figure out a way to bring Sheppard and all the choices you made to the next level we are stuck with this and I am ok with that.

 

But what about the "last breathe scene"- It's natual everyone makes "assumptions" but I present you this counter arguement: In the movie The Negotiator Kevin Spacey and Samuel L. Jackson's character have a discussion over the ending of the movie Shane Where the hero rides off into the sunset shot with kid yelling for Shane to come back but doesn't because Kevin Spacey says he's dead Which Jackson retorts slumped don't mean dead which later on plays on a scene in the movie.(Sound familar??)

 

To sum up, we want closure with the Sheppard and the developers have a chance to give it to us if the can figure out the technology to make it happen. (remember they have to stay with the new technology if they want to stay in the business).  They could have giving it to us through DLC but haven't gotten it which leaves a possibility of a future game.  I am just throwing an idea out there but then again if you chose the other endings you kind of have your fate sealed.  I am really curious on thoughts on this idea and gives something to think about.  Thanks for your time in reading this.

[fraggle]

First of all, welcome to the forum

I think the devs stated somewhere already that the Shepard Trilogy is definitely done and they don't want to bring him back.

Personally, I wouldn't want them to either. I was satisfied with the ending, if you got the breathe scene you can shape your own ending, like if Shep actually makes it, if he/she will be rescued, will be reunited with his/her team and loved ones etc. I kinda liked that. If Shep died then he/she died. A sacrifice to end the Reapers once and for all. I was ok with that as well (but I'm a sucker for non-happy ends, so there's that ).

You already stated the problem with bringing Shepard back anyway. This would only work for High EMS Destroy ending, and I don't think the devs would ever do this to the fans. They would need to make this ending canon, and this would p*ss off a lot of people, so I guess the chances to see Shep again are really zero.

[D.C.]

I agree people will be mad at everything when it comes to entertainment I had nights as a professional D.J. i could play the same set list 2 nights in a row they were happy one night and complained the next vice versa.  I learned people are gonna complain no matter what.

 

I still believe the ending is brilliant if you really think about it, because of the simple principle of (from a marketing prespective) it's been 3 years and people are still arguing over the ending.  Probably gonna be the arguement till the end of time lol.  Yes I know the devs said that it was over, in terms of sheppard story, but they left a chance writing wise "to be able to if they wanted" is where i was trying to go with this.  I was just looking at the fact real world technologically there is no way to continue the story for us on ps3 or xbox 360 unless they did a remaster on the newer console but then it would be a constant cycle of that as games systems progress.

[fraggle]

I agree people will be mad at everything when it comes to entertainment I had nights as a professional D.J. i could play the same set list 2 nights in a row they were happy one night and complained the next vice versa.  I learned people are gonna complain no matter what.

 

I still believe the ending is brilliant if you really think about it, because of the simple principle of (from a marketing prespective) it's been 3 years and people are still arguing over the ending.  Probably gonna be the arguement till the end of time lol.  Yes I know the devs said that it was over, in terms of sheppard story, but they left a chance writing wise "to be able to if they wanted" is where i was trying to go with this.  I was just looking at the fact real world technologically there is no way to continue the story for us on ps3 or xbox 360 unless they did a remaster on the newer console but then it would be a constant cycle of that as games systems progress.

 

Oh yes, you're very right about that! I never experienced anything like that personally, but well. Internet is the place where you can see and experience everything

 

Also very true. I already heard a lot about the ending controversy before, but I've only started playing ME last year. The fact that people are still arguing about it is actually really fascinating. The fanbase is passionate, I'll give em that. I'm not really sure it's what BW wanted with their ending, but now it is what it is.

 

You mean something like transfering savefiles then if they decide to make references to the Trilogy?

There's another discussion thread going on (here), and maybe we'll get something like the Dragon Age Keep, if they decide that your previous choices matter in the new game

[D.C.]

well what i meant this...

 

with the new consoles coming out continuing the sheppard story arc would be difficult with the whole being able to save transfer to the new platform.

 

i might be mistaken in this reference but Knights of the Old Republic series, I believe 1 was on the old xbox and the second one was on 360, so they changed the story because you couldn't transfer the old character over.  In a way, I believe we are seeing this again.  While we are expanding the universe of mass effect, with the new crew and new story on the new platform.  Writing wise if they technology ever figures out how they can move back to the shepard story arc (i feel this is why they left it open in a way with the destroy ending).

 

I read the thread you posted and totally agree this is gonna have to bring in a cannonical ending to 3 because where does it go from there if shep chose the synthesis ending lol (everyone is a organic/synthetic and everyone lives happily ever after we assume)

 

If you chose the control ending shep becomes master of the universe hypotheticlly potential villian for the new generation.

 

with the destroy ending the final breathe scene it opens the possibility to a new sheppard story but we don't have the means to make all the choices to make that happen available for new platform yet. hence unless they do a remaster for new console.  And I get it with the dev saying the sheppard arc is done (I was in total agreement when him and Garrus before the final charge saying when this is done we are gonna find a beach somewhere and retire lol.  My sheppard got married to ashley they live on a beach with Garrus and Tali next door hang out all the time reflecting on the past drinking margaritas lol).

 

think devs ran into this problem of what if and to stay on top of this issue just start another story until they can figure out how but i think will be interesting because how does someone make a cameo appearance in the new story arc if they didn't survive in the sheppard story arc? The only way i can think of this happening is the 2 years Sheppard is presumed dead while cerberus is working on him the story takes place there..that way it keeps anything from majorly conflicting with sheppard story arc out. and avoids the ending of 3 all together then don't have to worry about the ending ordeal. just a thought and i could be completely wrong lol.

[fraggle]

They could also just let it play in the same universe, but with a fresh start (like Shep's story didn't happen). Currently there are many speculations going on, and while I find them interesting, I try not to go into this too deeply. I prefer the facts when we get the new game. Maybe we'll even get a few glimpses of the new game soon, who knows!

I still do not think they will in any way continue Shepard's story, because as you say it would be difficult. The only way I think this would work out is if there would be a portion of the galaxy that wasn't affected by neither Destroy, Synthesis or Control and people are still the same. And I'm not sure this would be a good idea on their end.

 

And about you living on a beach with Ash, Garrus and Tali - see, that's the beauty about the ending. Everyone can shape their own personal ending

[Berit]

No, no no ... NO! Indoctrination theory is garbage, it was Planck Length thin to begin with, and was completely debunked by the EC Ending.

 

Shepard's Tale is over! Finished! Caput! Done with! MOVE ON!

 

Having the next game in the Mass Effect Universe is quite feasible, after all "The Universe is an awfully big place". I could see "some" of the decisions from the "Shepard Story" being transferred over into the game, perhaps which races survived, or how many planets are populated depending on how many ME Relays were still/newly functional and so on, but that would be the LIMIT of what would carry over.

[Abelas Forever!]

I haven't seen any evidence that the ending couldn't happen in Shepard's mind.  Actually I hope that IT is true because it makes everything even more interesting. However I believe that Shepard's story is over and I don't think it's because of  issues in importing Shepard to new consoles. They could use something similar like Dragon age keep where you could choose your decisions and in game you could customize your Shepard. I believe that Shepard's story is over because there isn't much more to tell so it's better to move on to different PC.

[SwobyJ]

I think Bioware keeps their options open, at the very least.

 

ME1 - Anything could happen! New scifi world to do whatever we want with!

ME2 - The Reaper stuff could mean anything! Lets put plot threads everywhere and decide which ones to follow!

ME3 - Was it real or not? What of what we faced was legit? Was it a conclusion, or a new beginning?

[D.C.]

How is IT debunked by the EC?? i have yet to see any evidence to disprove it

[Farangbaa]

Leave this place before you lose your sanity.

Oh wait, you're talking IT.

Nevermind.

[Farangbaa]

I haven't seen any evidence that the ending couldn't happen in Shepard's mind.  Actually I hope that IT is true because it makes everything even more interesting. However I believe that Shepard's story is over and I don't think it's because of  issues in importing Shepard to new consoles. They could use something similar like Dragon age keep where you could choose your decisions and in game you could customize your Shepard. I believe that Shepard's story is over because there isn't much more to tell so it's better to move on to different PC.

Ok.. one last time.

How can you disprove a theory that explains everything as a sign of something that's never properly explained? A weird pixel? MUST BE IT. Reused texture? IT!!!

Seriously, it's like trying to prove God exists, or doesn't. You can't, cause God only exists in the gaps. Therefore it's not relevant, you might as well ignore it all together and nothing will change, the world will still go round, the sun will still rise. For all intents and purposes, God doesn't exist.

Swap God for IT. Same story. It only exists in the gaps you don't understand, but that doesn't mean it has any merit whatsoever.

Yeah yeah, I probably kicked some fundamentalist in the face now. At least I know the face exists.

[Berit]

How is IT debunked by the EC?? i have yet to see any evidence to disprove it

It's by using a principal called "Ockham's Razor"

 

e.g - Shepard is Indoctrinated because his eyes have the same glow pattern as husks = He's Indoctrinated, therefor it's all in his mind.

 

Or

 

BW re-used a texture.

 

Which one is the simplest and most realistic interpretation? Apply the same philosophy of "simplest solution is usually the correct one" to every other supposed "fact" in IT and you'll find it has less validity than those "earn $10000000 in 5 minutes" internet ads.

 

Before EC, some of the IT "facts" had a very small advantage, but after the EC and Leviathan were released, it was over.

 

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with creating your own "head canon" (or 'fanon') and believing what you will. the MEHEM is a perfect example of this, personally, I won't use it because I believe the EC and Leviathan closed the book on BW's ending.

 

I would have started the re-write from WAY earlier in the game to avoid the inconsistencies and the quite simply "bad writing" that make the ending so undesirable, but that's just me.

[Fyrebane]

At first, I didn't like the ending either. I was at the tail end of a semi-long vacation playing ME3 the whole time and the ending baffled me. Even slightly depressed me - at first. I simply misunderstood it probably from playing through it too fast. The second play through I ended up getting pretty much all teh DLC for it including Leviathon which really opened my eyes up a lot to the reasons they made the ending the way they did. Now, I still get EXTREMELY sad at endgame, but at least I understand it.

 

About ME4... I have my theories and suggestions. My theory is that there is no way they can make any part of it a prequel to the series. Humanity has only been a part of the galaxy for... what, 26 years? I'm not very sure about that but I think it's close. Anyway, there wasn't much brought up in the series about anything worth while during that time. If there was then it would have been a big deal. I think that the best way to start off 4 is a time ~100 years after shepards death. This allows a tremendous amount of room for creativity. The cycle has ended and not only has it ended, but everyone now understands that it was happening in the past and now a new era is underway and they are a part of it. 100 years gives plenty of time for all the races of the galaxy time to rebuild and get into the new groove so to speak. New everything but already routine. Well, most things will be, but others will not. It's a perfect foundation for their creative thinking to dazzle us like they did with the series.

 

Oh and I have mixed feelings about the film. I want it, but I'm terrified I'll be scarred from it's failure. So then I don't want it. =/

[D.C.]

It's by using a principal called "Ockham's Razor"

 

e.g - Shepard is Indoctrinated because his eyes have the same glow pattern as husks = He's Indoctrinated, therefor it's all in his mind.

 

Or

 

BW re-used a texture.

 

Which one is the simplest and most realistic interpretation? Apply the same philosophy of "simplest solution is usually the correct one" to every other supposed "fact" in IT and you'll find it has less validity than those "earn $10000000 in 5 minutes" internet ads.

 

Before EC, some of the IT "facts" had a very small advantage, but after the EC and Leviathan were released, it was over.

 

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with creating your own "head canon" (or 'fanon') and believing what you will. the MEHEM is a perfect example of this, personally, I won't use it because I believe the EC and Leviathan closed the book on BW's ending.

 

I would have started the re-write from WAY earlier in the game to avoid the inconsistencies and the quite simply "bad writing" that make the ending so undesirable, but that's just me.

Occham's razor because there can only be one answer nice and neat problem with that is that doesn't cover everything which remind me of the House M.D. episode titled the same where there was more than one cause to the illness.

 

ok let's go with the eyes theory if you chose the destroy ending his eyes are perfectly fine the other ending his eyes are husk-like?? so what it's a graphics error now??

 

but wait the developers are saying his on the citadel during the last breath scene that has to disprove IT?? I can tell you i started the great chicago fire doesn't make it so..... 1st rule of enterainment keep them talking and they will come back for more, The developers have done exactly that it's been 3 years and people are still arguing over the ending.  They throw out whatever they want to keep people talking EC really didn't cover anything just more fluff to quiet the masses.

 

it's called misdirection 

[Berit]

Occham's razor because there can only be one answer nice and neat problem with that is that doesn't cover everything which remind me of the House M.D. episode titled the same where there was more than one cause to the illness.

 

ok let's go with the eyes theory if you chose the destroy ending his eyes are perfectly fine the other ending his eyes are husk-like?? so what it's a graphics error now??

 

but wait the developers are saying his on the citadel during the last breath scene that has to disprove IT?? I can tell you i started the great chicago fire doesn't make it so..... 1st rule of enterainment keep them talking and they will come back for more, The developers have done exactly that it's been 3 years and people are still arguing over the ending.  They throw out whatever they want to keep people talking EC really didn't cover anything just more fluff to quiet the masses.

 

it's called misdirection 

Apparently you don't fully understand what the term "Ockhams Razor" implies.

It doesn't mean there is only one answer, and it doesn't mean that only the simplest answer is the correct one.

What it means is that when there are several possible answers to a question that all have equally valid results, the one with the fewest number of variables is usually the correct one.

 

To re-use the glowing eyes phenomenon - Shep's eyes "glow" when he's watching the video's (memories implanted into tech) on Eden Prime to learn how to free Javik. Sheps' eyes "glow" when he puts in the occular implants (contact lenses) on the Citadel, so he can see the power conduits an "safe" zones in the Casino. Does that mean Shep is being/has been indoctrinated both those times as well?

 

In both the Control and Synthesis endings, Shep is "interfacing" with Reaper Tech, so yes Sheps's eyes will glow, and BW may even have selected that particular texture because it is Reaper Tech being interfaced with, but that in no way suggests that Shep is indoctrinated, and in fact in both those cases, being indoctrinated would completely and utterly invalidate the entire premise for either of those choices.

 

The infamous "breath scene" <sigh> How do we even know it's Shep? How do we know it's on Earth? It's a piece of armor with the N7 logo on it amongst some rubble.

 

How many N7's are still out there? James Vega is now an N7 recruit, so maybe it was him? Maybe it's one of the few/dozens/hundreds of N7's that fought on Earth or elsewhere in the Galaxy, and the breath scene is merely showing that despite everything, despite all the death and destruction, one of these human tough guys survived.

 

Maybe, the breath taker is none other than the new hero for ME4?

 

Misdirection? Seriously? You think BW purposely did all this to "keep audiences talking"? Keep audiences talking about how they'll never trust BW/EA again, and never buy another BW game because of the poor way they handled the ending of the ME series, yep, that sounds reasonable.

...

 

Oh, and it's called "flogging a dead horse"

[Abelas Forever!]

The theory could be disproved if the devs say that it's false or it could no longer explain the ending. I think IT still explains the ending and it still answers to many questions which the actual ending leaves unanswered.

[AlanC9]

The theory could be disproved if the devs say that it's false or it could no longer explain the ending. I think IT still explains the ending and it still answers to many questions which the actual ending leaves unanswered.

What question did IT actually answer that IT didn't introduce in the first place?

[Berit]

What question did IT actually answer that IT didn't introduce in the first place?

^ This. Please give an example of an un-answered question that only IT can answer.

[Abelas Forever!]

What question did IT actually answer that IT didn't introduce in the first place?

  I can't answer to that because I read about the IT just after I had finished my first playthrough. I didn't suspect anything and I was devastated that my Shepard died. I tried to find some information is it possible to survive the ending and then I found IT. I was very skeptical about it at first but after playing the game for a second time it made sense. Anyway It doesn't prove anything were the questions first or was the theory first. If you want to disprove it you'll have to ask questions that the theory couldn't answer or make arguments that disproves it.

 

From time to time I think about is IT true or not but I haven't found any proof that it couldn't be true. I have been thinking about the catalyst and I think I understand what it is and why it was created. I think it's clear that Leviathans created it to preserve life at all cost and it come up with a solution where life is preserved in reaper form. However after Harbinger it hasn't been able to create a reaper who has a mind of that species. So its solution isn't perfect. The AI has tried to speed up things by leaving mass relays and Citadel for organics to find so that they could evolve more rapidly. After the organics have evolved enough the reapers will come and try to create that perfect reaper again. I don't think that this cycle is any different what comes to creating that reaper. It's already known that reapers are creating a human reaper so it has to have human mind. So I think it makes sense that the Catalyst is trying to find that mind to that reaper and I think Shepard is a very good candidate for that so I think that the ending is Shepards's struggle against becoming a human reaper. I think IT only suggests that the ending is Shepard's struggle against indoctrination unless there are other ITs or theories about the ending. But anyway what I believe is very close to IT with the exception that reapers aren't trying to indoctrinate Shepard but instead they are trying to make her/him the mind of a reaper. Because I know what Catalyst is it's very hard for me to take the endings as they are.

Modifié par SilentShadows, 22 avril 2015 - 05:39 .

[SwobyJ]

"but instead they are trying to make her/him the mind of a reaper" Yep.

 

And you're not a useful tool, or especially partner, if you're a lockstep husk.

 

Could be that actual 'effective' indoctrination doesn't create blunt fodder, but is a communication method to try to get a specific organic mind to fully accept synthetic minds. It could fail many times just like in the creation of Grunt, but just because something has failed, doesn't mean that variables can't change and there can't be a success. That's experiments.

 

One similar (but dissimilar in other respects, I know) thing is the example given when Shepard enters the Geth Consensus and Legion/Geth VI can lead/push Shepard along probably legit memories of the  Morning War. Don't tell me that's not propaganda, whether for a good cause or not. Its all virtual, but Shepard sure experienced it.

 

There's a lot of evil in the Reapers, but I do tend to think that matters themselves are more complicated than that. And to explain it will take a lot of .. not just forum posts, but Bioware possibly addressing this matter in future games - and I'm aware that 'Commander Shepard's' and the 'Reapers'' story is done. But I also wonder if both of those are relatively useless labels in whatever the next game's context may be. (again, RELATIVELY)

 

 

EDIT: In the end, the Reapers probably do deserve revenge. In the world of the games, we've been actively fighting them off, slaying them and their servants in what is effectively a galactic scale self-defense. But I do wonder what the outcomes, negative but maybe also positive, could be if we are seemingly handed all the power in the galaxy and decide to actually show mercy with it, even a sort of compassion. And I think that given Bioware's track record with writing, I find it hard to imagine that even in an IT future, Bioware wouldn't take advantage of such a concept.

My Shepard Destroyed. Some of it was for revenge and to 'strike fear' in the Reapers even if IT is happening, but most of it was just because my Shepard wasn't the self-sacrificial sort if he could help it, and somehow he may be aware that there's a much greater conflict to come that he may want to participate in as-he-is-as-much-as-possible. There's always another mission, right Garrus? 

[Farangbaa]

I can't answer to that because I read about the IT just after I had finished my first playthrough. I didn't suspect anything and I was devastated that my Shepard died.

Grief is a really bad motivator.

It leads you to believe in things like an afterlife, God and apparanly, Indoctrination Theory.

Shepard is dead. That's it. IT is just mental gymnastics to have Shepard survive

...and afterwards be destroyed by the Reapers. So he's still dead.

That's the mental gymnastics of delusion.

[Abelas Forever!]

Grief isn't my motivator and I don't believe in IT because that is the only way for Shepard to survive. Shepard will survive in high EMS destroy ending so IT or not Shepard can be alive and that's what matters to me.

[Abelas Forever!]

@Swobyj That is an interesting point of view.

[SwobyJ]

@Swobyj That is an interesting point of view.

 

It lets me continue to have fun with the games at least, for now.