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Bringing back a "voiced" Hero of Ferelden NPC: Yes, or No?


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#376
In Exile

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The problem is, the DR became largely insignificant, mostly due to the uproar about it. There was uproar back then about Alistair showing up and taking the killing blow, denying people that played for it the chance, because they romanced him. While, as we can see, not everyone will agree with me, the US ending was the most satisfying one I played. In hindsight, they'd have been better off just making that the only possible ending, getting the backlash over with then, and moving on.

 

It wasn't insignificant. People built up a fantasy about it that was unrelated to anything other than mistrust and, like ME choices, about punishing players and vindicating their US choice. Having your fan fiction dashed is not the same as a choice not being significant.



#377
Dai Grepher

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I'd say I'd be fine with a voiced Warden cameo provided it isn't Jennifer Hale (Female Hawke).

 

The woman just doesn't ever change her voice, nor her tone.  I find it jarring that both my Inquisitor and Hawke have identical voices because I'm not big on the US one... If they were to bring the warden back, even briefly, I'd prefer a different voice actress to represent her, just so that it sets her apart from constant "same-voice-every-game" acting.

 

Female Hawke is Jo Wyatt. Jennifer Hale voiced Krem.



#378
robertthebard

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It wasn't insignificant. People built up a fantasy about it that was unrelated to anything other than mistrust and, like ME choices, about punishing players and vindicating their US choice. Having your fan fiction dashed is not the same as a choice not being significant.


It was insignificant, and had to be, since it was so hotly contested here, and probably else where. The OGB didn't suddenly turn up in everyone's game with "Mwahahahahaha, it doesn't matter that you didn't do the Ritual, I'm here anyway". It wasn't the big bad of the game, it wasn't the Inquisitor, despite all the claims that it would be, and all the "logic" used to reach those claims. The problem with fanfiction is that it's fanfiction. It exists outside the realm of canon lore to begin with. How it's even relevant to what happened with the DR is a mystery, to me, and how the existing lore can dash something that exists outside of it is also a mystery. So events overrode what you wrote? No, they didn't, because they really can't. The fanfic exists outside the lore anyway, so nothing post where the fiction starts can affect it, one way or another.

This does go a long way to proving that BW would have been better off w/out it. There'd have been some really angry people, but the rage would have subsided by now, wouldn't have carried in to DA 2, and certainly not into DA I. We wouldn't be able to set our calendars by forum posts; "Yep, must be Tuesday, there's a new 'Bring the Warden back' thread".

#379
AlanC9

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We shoukd probably work on our definition of "insignificant" a bit before proceeding with this.

#380
robertthebard

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We shoukd probably work on our definition of "insignificant" a bit before proceeding with this.


In the end, it didn't matter if you did it or not, if Kieran was there or not, even. It has no bearing on the actual storyline.

#381
Han Shot First

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...or, they could just leave the Warden alone.

I made a choice at the end of Origins to allow my Warden to make the Ultimate Sacrifice. I do not want them bringing my Warden back from the dead to satisfy people that can't let them go. They're not ignoring the Warden to spite the community. They're dropping them because they read the ME 3 forums, and the DA 2 forums, and, despite the rose colored glasses used here quite frequently, they read the Origins forums as well. Ultimately, they would have been better off not writing the DR.

 

I had my Warden choose the dark ritual, but I agree.

 

It was an odd choice by the writers to have the fact that Wardens die slaying archdemons come as a late game twist, only to soon after have Morrigan provide an easy out. The Dark Ritual lessened the impact of that reveal. And for my character the Dark Ritual was an easy out, because he had already been sleeping with Morrigan for the entire game. The Dark Ritual only becomes a tough choice if it is a Female Warden paired with Alistair.

 

I had my character choose the DR because it was entirely in character for him to do so, but I thought it was one of the few mistakes Bioware made with Dragon Age: Origins. The game probably should have ended with one of the Wardens sacrificing himself. Or alternatively, the Dark Ritual should have been something with some actual consequences and not just "have sex with Morrigan." 



#382
Heimdall

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I had my Warden choose the dark ritual, but I agree.

 

It was an odd choice by the writers to have the fact that Wardens die slaying archdemons come as a late game twist, only to soon after have Morrigan provide an easy out. The Dark Ritual lessened the impact of that reveal. And for my character the Dark Ritual was an easy out, because he had already been sleeping with Morrigan for the entire game. The Dark Ritual only becomes a tough choice if it is a Female Warden paired with Alistair.

 

I had my character choose the DR because it was entirely in character for him to do so, but I thought it was one of the few mistakes Bioware made with Dragon Age: Origins. The game probably should have ended with one of the Wardens sacrificing himself. Or alternatively, the Dark Ritual should have been something with some actual consequences and not just "have sex with Morrigan." 

To be fair, it wasn't an easy choice when the long term consequences were unclear.  Afterall, not only would you survive, but so would the old god behind the Blight.  And all this comes at the word of someone who just revealed they had been lying to you about their true motivations since you first met.  I actually thought it was pretty well done.


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#383
DarkKnightHolmes

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I had my Warden choose the dark ritual, but I agree.

 

It was an odd choice by the writers to have the fact that Wardens die slaying archdemons come as a late game twist, only to soon after have Morrigan provide an easy out. The Dark Ritual lessened the impact of that reveal. And for my character the Dark Ritual was an easy out, because he had already been sleeping with Morrigan for the entire game. The Dark Ritual only becomes a tough choice if it is a Female Warden paired with Alistair.

 

I had my character choose the DR because it was entirely in character for him to do so, but I thought it was one of the few mistakes Bioware made with Dragon Age: Origins. The game probably should have ended with one of the Wardens sacrificing himself. Or alternatively, the Dark Ritual should have been something with some actual consequences and not just "have sex with Morrigan." 

Well, I'm sure back when DAO actually came out and no one knew DA would become a big series, I'm sure it was a more tougher and exciting choice because we truly didn't know if we would meet Morrigan again after she takes the OGB or if there was some big secret Flemeth hadn't told Morrigan about the ritual that would bite everyone in the ass.

 

Now that we have so much knowledge thanks to Witch Hunt, DA2 and DAI, it seems like an easy choice... though I would still never give Morrigan the baby.



#384
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Right. It's why I don't quite understand the sentiment I've heard from Weekes and some of the other developers on how they think the Warden was able to walk off into the sunset with their romance and thus, their story is done. That would be all well and true except for the fact that 3 of the 4 Origins romances showed back up again in Inquisition and all can get embroiled in the main plot and have significant things happen to each of them without any reactivity from their respective romances. All the while they have the Warden off on some life or death quest. None of that screams of closure to me.

 

Like with Leliana, its doubly annoying since her whole character development arc in Origins is basically played out in reverse in Inquisition and potentially overwritten by the Inquisitor. Add in how the whole Divine election process has no reactivity towards her being in a romance and that kind of sucks.

 

I just have the feeling it will really suck with Morrigan's romance if BioWare is so beholden to the idea of the Warden forever being mysteriously absent and offscreen because I'm guessing they're going deep with some godhood plotline for her. So she'll inevitably get tossed back into the main story beats with some new PC and conveniently develop amnesia regarding the HoF and Kieran when it comes to big plot moments or choices.

 

Actually kind of envious of Zevranmancers at the moment, they're the only Wardens for whom the 'ride of into the sunset' ending Weekes was going on about is actually true for. 



#385
robertthebard

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This kind of goes to all three, so I'll just not quote:

My first US was because FWarden won the coin toss at roll up, and so did Alistair when it came to the romance toss. Then, on the road to Redcliffe, Alistair had the audacity to hit me with a ton of negative affection because I was surprised to learn who he was. BTW, it's interesting to note that not only my Warden was surprised, but so was I. I do Redcliffe last, so it was an easy choice with her still stinging from Alistair's rant. When Morrigan offered it, I had already made up my mind that I was going to die, so I told her no. It was the funeral afterwards that got me hooked on the ending, and how poignant it really was.

That's what makes me believe that it's the best ending, and YMMV, and I'm cool with that. I just think that, in the long run, and for the sake of the health of the game, we'd have been better off w/out it, especially knowing what I know now.

#386
Bunny

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So, uh... *stares at feet* Confession time. 

 

I knew everything that was going to happen to Alistair and my first Warden because I looked it up before playing. I wanted to get max approval from Alistair because my first Warden and I are both just that kind of person. So I don't have a clue what the heartbreak must have felt like for those of you who went into the Landsmeet and Dark Ritual spoiler-free. I agonized about it too... just earlier than I was supposed to. It was a spoiler-flavored gut punch that ached for half the game.



#387
kingkonig

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Keep in mind that it has been 10 years since the events of the Fifth Blight.  Assuming the Hero of Ferelden/Warden Commander lives as long as he is supposed to, we have a maximum of 10 years left before the Calling.  If the next game is to occur in the North, it is highly unlikely that we will hear about him for a long time.  Maybe some mention of the character if we ever get to see Weisshaupt, but other than that...



#388
AlanC9

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And for my character the Dark Ritual was an easy out, because he had already been sleeping with Morrigan for the entire game. The Dark Ritual only becomes a tough choice if it is a Female Warden paired with Alistair.


That's only true if your Warden is highly confident that Morrigan knows what the hell she's doing.
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#389
Steppenwolf

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That's only true if your Warden is highly confident that Morrigan knows what the hell she's doing.

 

"Your options are definitely die, or maybe die. So what's it gonna be: kill a dragon and then die, or get nasty with me then fight a dragon and maybe live?"

 

My confidence in her would be through the roof.



#390
Dai Grepher

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Regarding the Dark Ritual, old god soul, and things of significance...

 

I think the Dark Ritual choice presents moral conflict with severity that is based on your own Hero's moral compass. My main Hero, a male Cousland engaged to Anora, refused the Dark Ritual for numerous reasons. He wasn't going to do it himself because he was loyal to Anora. He would not ask Loghain to do it either because he fully intended on Loghain making the final blow if Riordan could not. The old god's soul did not deserve a second chance at life anyway. Above all, he would never force an evil entity on an innocent child. None of these things would he do, even at the cost of his own life. He is a Cousland, and as his father always said, they do what must be done. No moral conflict at all.

 

My secondary Hero was greedy and selfish. He was a blood mage. He desired power. He had slept with Morrigan (and Leliana) many times before this. So of course he had no problem with the Dark Ritual. He wanted to live, and he needed Alistair alive to act as his puppet on Ferelden's throne. No moral conflict at all.

 

Compare that to some other character, like a City Elf who might not want to die, but can't let Alistair die either for fear of what Anora might do to the elves out of retribution for the City Elf killing her father in the duel. But at the same time, can he really force an evil old god soul on an innocent child? He'd be no better than the humans in that case, always controlling other people's lives. Or hey, maybe Alistair was just your friend and you didn't want to see him die. Moral conflict.

 

As for the Dark Ritual's significance. Of course it was significant. Aside from saving the lives of the Wardens involved with the final blow, it also presented extra storyline for Inquisition. Now the problem here, why some see this as insignificant, is because we don't see the final purpose of the old god soul. Flemeth takes it away somewhere and what happens to it after Solas shows up is unknown, but the bottom line is we still don't know what role it plays yet. I will agree that BioWare could have made this more epic by say... having Kieran transform into a dragon at Skyhold, and then the Inquisitor having to defeat him before he tears the place apart, after which Kieran would have to be taken somewhere to harness his power or else have someone else take the soul from him. But having a story that showed the power of the soul would have been better. In fact, they should have made him the dragon you call on to fight Corypheus' dragon, else Morrigan learns it from Flemeth, or takes the old god soul into herself to become the dragon. Still, I'm sure we will see how important an old god soul is in following games, even if the Dark Ritual was not performed. Remember there are still two old gods left.

 

As for the Dark Ritual's relevance to the Hero's survival and return to the scene, there is none. In my first example above, my Hero lives not because of the Dark Ritual, but because Loghain did the right thing in the end. So the Ritual was never the cause of the Hero surviving past the end of the game. This is how it was written by BioWare from the start. The option of having the Hero live was always part of the series. As such, doing something with the Hero is now BioWare's responsibility, and doing something GOOD with the Hero is BioWare's test. Will they pass or fail? I think their success will depend on how willing they are to listen to the fans and take our advice, and I see much good advice in every topic here that talks about bringing the Hero back.

 

Again, I agree it had little bearing on the storyline of Inquisition, but it still might in future installments as we learn what the old god souls are. I saw a theory on YouTube that the old god souls are keys to the eluvians, but I think that's just wrong. I think it's clear that they are just powerful spirits who are capable of wielding powerful magic. That's how Kieran activated and redirected the eluvian to the Fade. I think Flemeth was interested in the old god soul for the reason of amassing great magical power to fuel her reckoning. Maybe she plans/planned to use it to free the other elven "gods". Or maybe it would be used to restore Mythal's fragmented and weakened soul. Wish we could have seen more in Inquisition, but we didn't. I'm sure there will be more in the near future.

 

I don't think the Dark Ritual lessened the impact of the reveal that a Warden must die to slay an archdemon. I had suspected it for a while before that while playing anyway. Besides, my Hero had Riordan and Loghain to take the final blow before him. So he was pretty safe, and he didn't have that strong of a bond with Loghain as he would have had with Alistair. Even so, I played a Cousland, who seemed to have that "sacrifice" theme following him around since Highever. So ending up sacrificing himself to save Ferelden would have been not such a stretch. Theoretically, he would have died defending his mother and father had Duncan not been there to conscript him. So I would have seen it as him having been living on borrowed time. I think the impact would only hit hard if the Warden were a female who romanced Alistair. It would mean one of them might have to die.

 

I agree with Heimdall about the long term consequences being unclear. That was the major catch for most players. But it's impossible to see the consequences in the present. Whatever happens won't happen for many years. All you know is something bad might happen some time down the road, and with an old god involved, that likelihood becomes much greater.

 

I don't think Weeks' sunset ending applies to any Hero. Isn't every living Hero on the quest for the cure? Even those who romanced Zevran are still said to be on the quest thanks to Witch Hunt being mandatory, right? And while Zevran doesn't make an appearance, he does in DA2 and sends letters in DA:I regarding some chore table missions. In any case, the sunset ending will never apply to most Heroes. My main Hero is the King of Ferelden, so he will always be in a position of great influence and importance. And to this point, BioWare set the game up this way. If they didn't want the Hero being accounted for in each following game, then this option should not have been available. Same goes for anyone who romanced Morrigan, Leliana, or Alistair. Or in that case, don't bring any of those characters back. Let them actually ride off into the sunset with their Hero/Heroine.

 

At present, the Hero should have about 17 years left before the Calling. 30 years to live, you start to hear the Calling near the end. So it's at about the 27 year mark, give or take depending on your Hero. Or if your Hero drank the Power of Blood concoction, he has about what... 400 years to live? And of course when the Hero finds the cure, he or she will have their natural lifespan restored, or at least they won't die because of the taint in that 17 year range.

 

Basically it all boils down to this. If your Hero made the ultimate sacrifice, then your Hero is the odd one out and you probably won't get to see them again except maybe in statue form at Weissaupt. The general rule is that the Hero survived and went on to do more great things. The Orlesian Warden in Awakening is just a placeholder for your Hero whom you were supposed to keep alive. Evidenced by the fact that the Orlesian Warden gets a default world state where Alistair is the king and Morrigan treats you basically the same even though she doesn't know you at all. The US Heroes are the minority. Future Dragon Age games will continue to feature our Heroes.


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#391
KaiserShep

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One thought I had about the OGB was that it would be tantamount to some kind of Blight remote control that Morrigan or Flemeth would use to their own ends, but it wasn't an idea I could put a great deal of stock in, and a straight up death is not nearly as interesting as sticking around to see how it turns out. So naturally, my Warden got Al to do the deed and get everyone the get-out-of-death card.


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#392
Robert Trevelyan

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It's tricky.

 

Because, there was a 'Voice' for your Warden in Origins. Allbeit only in Combat. You picked the voice type from a list of many options.

 

There's no way Bioware are bringing back all those Voice Actors to cover all the bases. For one, Robin Sachs voice one Male voice. So that's not going to be possible. Cullen's Voice actor voiced others - which could get confusing.

 

I'd personally like the option, because I want to see my Wardens return. But at the same point I also remember how hacked off I was that my joyful sarcastic Hawke turned up here, only to snarl and grimace in DAI in a way which seemed so completely out of character. So it's tough.

 

I think if you introduced The Warden you'd need Bioware to offer several different Voice actors, based on personality, in order to convey what was needed. That's probably a bit difficult to offer.



#393
AngelOfOutlaws

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Again, just saying, have a mission where the DA4 Protagonist goes to help the Warden that is trying to cure the calling. If your HoF is dead it's a Stroud-type replacement, the HoF's protegee perhaps? You don't actually make it in time to help so you have a badass fighting/puzzle mission where you get info on the Calling and curing it. At the end of the mission you get a cutscene of the HoF/Warden doing the thing to stop the calling. You can't actually have a conversation, just watching, maybe yelling things at the Warden. Then the HoF/Warden will cure the Calling and die, cure it and survive, not cure it, etc, this can be a set event or an event based on your choices.

 

And because people love the LI scene's (myself included), have an LI scene either prior to the cure attempt or after it. 

 

Bippy bobbity boom, a mission that Bioware can't screw up with dialogue that doesn't fit the HoF's personality or a voice that doesn't match everyone's HoF and we get an answer to if it's possible to cure the calling.       



#394
Toasted Llama

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The Dark Ritual only becomes a tough choice if it is a Female Warden paired with Alistair.

Actually, it was an easy choice for me/my main Warden despite not even knowing the consequences, while she was romancing Alistair.

I've been careful to get Morrigan's approval to +100 and been trying to be as friendly as I could with her, to the point where my Warden saw her as a sister and Morrigan's platonic feelings seemed very genuine.

Because of that the DR felt more like a "Either one of you dies and lives the rest of your lives with a broken heart or we try to save you and give you a happy ever after" rather than a "GIEV OLD GOD BABE NOA ME WANTZ 2 DESTROY TEH EARTH" secret plot for Morrigan.

And if my Warden had to choose between losing the love of her life or dooming the love of her life with that fate versus the love of her life having 1 "disastrous" night with a person she trusts to get some sort of a 'happily ever after' and considers as close as family, then her choice was made.

Bonus points if Alistair is King: who would want their Landsmeet choice to be nullified or have a king rule with potential depression? I wouldn't, so neither would my Warden.


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#395
AngelOfOutlaws

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Actually, it was an easy choice for me/my main Warden despite not even knowing the consequences, while she was romancing Alistair.

 

Ditto. Well sort of. The second my HoF was given the option she knew she was going to take it because she would do anything if would even give her a chance of keeping both her and Alistair safe. My HoF was young and just had her parents murdered, she had found safety and love and she wasn't about to let that go. However, she knew what she was asking Alistair to do was going to be hard on the both of them, which is quite upsetting that the game didn't really allow for an emotional conversation on that, just a passing joke. 



#396
Bunny

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Ditto. Well sort of. The second my HoF was given the option she knew she was going to take it because she would do anything if would even give her a chance of keeping both her and Alistair safe. My HoF was young and just had her parents murdered, she had found safety and love and she wasn't about to let that go. However, she knew what she was asking Alistair to do was going to be hard on the both of them, which is quite upsetting that the game didn't really allow for an emotional conversation on that, just a passing joke. 

 

It's true. Alistair never speaks of it until you make it back to the throne room, but it's possible to confront Morrigan during/after Denerim (and thank her, if you want).



#397
AlanC9

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"Your options are definitely die, or maybe die. So what's it gonna be: kill a dragon and then die, or get nasty with me then fight a dragon and maybe live?"

My confidence in her would be through the roof.

I was being unclear. The question isn't whether the ritual will actually preserve the life of the Warden who strikes down the Archdemon; I agree that those dice are always worth rolling unless you want someone to die there for some reason. The question is whether you think mucking around with this stuff is safe for everyone else. The magisters thought that entering the Golden City was a great idea.
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#398
Bunny

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*wonders if playing a Chaotic-Evil Warden is possible*

 

HoF returns as a villain. Yeesh.

 

*hides*



#399
Dai Grepher

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Yes, it is. Especially for a blood mage. He might even be able to use red lyrium with no side-effects. Also, he maybe able to survive the taint in the Black City and gain the power there, as Corypheus planned to do.



#400
berelinde

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Origins was, according to a statement from Gaider a long while back, not terribly profitable. Yet here we are. As I recall, DAI has already outsold DA2's lifetime sales, and that happened a while ago. I can't speak for the other platforms, but DAI is still in the top selling games section of the Playstation Store.

Alright, I'm firmly in the "Don't bring back the Warden" camp, but I do feel the need to mention one thing.

 

Origins had something like a 10-year development cycle. All that time, it was racking up expenses (I doubt BioWare employees work for free), but it wasn't earning them a single penny. So yes, of course it was less profitable than more recent releases. A long development cycle is expensive.

 

That said, I loved Origins, but it wasn't the perfect icon of which all other games are a pale reflection. It had its flaws just like DA2 and DAI had. And you know what? If I listed the things I loved about DAO and the things I didn't like, my list would look like no one else's. And that's one of the reasons why we need a new protagonist for every game. It's always something new to look forward to.