155 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

What is believable in the obligatory Dire Rat ™ from the starting zone suddenly levelling up to level 18 when you come back after having gained 20 levels yourself?

Does it gain class levels in Cleric and get renamed to "Dire Rat ™ of Doom +5"?

Can I play the Dire Rat ™ in my next playthrough? or at least recruit it as a companion? It would make for one hell of a party support.

 

What is believable about the Dire Rat from the third zone eating our band of heroes for breakfast because they didn't grind enough beforehand?

 

With level scaling the Dire Rat will always play it's appropriate role in the narrative - that of a very minor adversary that the heroes can defeat pretty easily.  Without level scaling, you end up with Avvar Dire Rats that people who kill Dragons must flee from.

[Terodil]

Well, they aren't doing our quests and grinding for our XP. They're doing bandit quests, Venatori quests, Red Templar quests, Hessarian blades quests and gaining their own XP.

... and Dire Rat ™ quests. Which involves invading the larder of some random noble's castle.

Level scaling is terrible. If something actually happened in the zones to make stronger enemies believable (e.g. invasion by another force, corruption by a demon, etc.) -- fine, that would at least provide a point.

[DomeWing333]

... and Dire Rat ™ quests. Which involves invading the larder of some random noble's castle.

Level scaling is terrible. If something actually happened in the zones to make stronger enemies believable (e.g. invasion by another force, corruption by a demon, etc.) -- fine, that would at least provide a point.

Nothing happens to your party that makes them getting stronger believable. Iron Bull, a seasoned mercenary captain who's fought and killed countless venatori, fog warriors, giants, and possibly dragons can suddenly get 10 times more powerful than he was after a few months of doing exactly what he's been doing for the past however many years of his life? Vivienne, former First Enchanter and arcane advisor to the Orlesian Imperial Court has a fraction of her skill set until she kills a few more bandits? Cassandra? Varric? Your own Inquisitor to an extent?

[Commander Michael]

Agreed.

 

The game was just boring because of how easy it was. And don't tell me to raise the difficulty - I was playing on Nightmare + friendly fire on since day one.

 

Origins had level scaling, yet nobody complained about feeling equal or less powerful than they did when they first started. You get access to new and more powerful abilities as the game progresses, not to mention gear. In Origins, I always felt like I was becoming more powerful because I was getting more talents and spells with every level up, not to mention the better gear one can obtain. Yet the combat was still challanging.

 

But then again, that's just my idea of fun. Some people like facerolling through a game, mashing just 1 button to achieve victory.

[KaiserShep]

All's I can say is good riddance to level scaling. I don't need to return to Bloody Terrible Forest to discover that filthy mook-bandit #86 decided to eat his Wheaties. 

[Duelist]

Agreed.

The game was just boring because of how easy it was. And don't tell me to raise the difficulty - I was playing on Nightmare + friendly fire on since day one.

Origins had level scaling, yet nobody complained about feeling equal or less powerful than they did when they first started. You get access to new and more powerful abilities as the game progresses, not to mention gear. In Origins, I always felt like I was becoming more powerful because I was getting more talents and spells with every level up, not to mention the better gear one can obtain. Yet the combat was still challanging.

But then again, that's just my idea of fun. Some people like facerolling through a game, mashing just 1 button to achieve victory.

Origins was the easiest of all three to faceroll though.
Hell, playing as a dexterity based rogue, you could even faceroll pushing one button once or roll with three mages (even two works) and you can clear entire rooms without even entering them so level scaling was irrelevant anyway.
Slow does not mean tactical.

On topic: personally I would like to have seen an optional, non DLC area with OP enemies preferably capable of cutting through guard and barrier like butter.
And an enemy archer with the full Assassin tree capable of using Full Draw and Long Shot from Stealth.

[DanteYoda]

Nope, completely disagree. Level scaling is awful and makes no sense. Why should random wolves get stronger because I killed some extra giants in a different country? What's the point in levelling up if everything else levels up? I may as well stay level 1 so the enemies are weaker too.

To actually keep the game fun and not face roll every time you enter a zone three levels too high?

 

How on earth are there so many people agreeing with you, are they all so scared of a little challenge that you can't have scaled enemies to fight which by the way would drop Gear and Weapons at your correct level instead of 5 - 10 levels too low....

 

BSN people are so in awe of their gods Bioware they actually cheer on insane and useless mechanics it boggles my mind...

 

I'm seriously starting to believe what that EA CEO said is true...

[Abyss108]

To actually keep the game fun and not face roll every time you enter a zone three levels too high?

 

How on earth are there so many people agreeing with you, are they all so scared of a little challenge that you can't have scaled enemies to fight which by the way would drop Gear and Weapons at your correct level instead of 5 - 10 levels too low....

 

BSN people are so in awe of their gods Bioware they actually cheer on insane and useless mechanics it boggles my mind...

 

I'm seriously starting to believe what that EA CEO said is true...

 

Well, now you just made up a bunch of stuff to dismiss the opposite side. Level scaling has nothing to do with difficulty, and nobody here has said they want an easy game. Plenty of older games have no scaling and are regarded are much harder than their modern counterparts.

 

If the game is too easy without scaling, that's a completely different issue that needs to be fixed in some other way.

[DanteYoda]

Well, now you just made up a bunch of stuff to dismiss the opposite side. Level scaling has nothing to do with difficulty, and nobody here has said they want an easy game. Plenty of older games have no scaling and are regarded are much harder than their modern counterparts.

 

If the game is too easy without scaling, that's a completely different issue that needs to be fixed in some other way.

Level scaling has everything to do with difficulty if i go to hissing wastes at level 10 i'm dead if i go to Hinterlands at level 20 everything is massacred, the loot is useless and i'm wasting my time being there..

 

Level scaling would just add enemies at my level in any of the zones which in turn would then drop items of my level in any of the zones..

 

I'd then have the correct difficulty all the way through the game..

[DomeWing333]

Well, now you just made up a bunch of stuff to dismiss the opposite side. Level scaling has nothing to do with difficulty, and nobody here has said they want an easy game. Plenty of older games have no scaling and are regarded are much harder than their modern counterparts.

 

If the game is too easy without scaling, that's a completely different issue that needs to be fixed in some other way.

The older games that don't have scaling generally don't have as much of an open-world, sand box-y designs to them, which definitely seems like what Inquisition is going for.

 

In a game where you allow the player to go anywhere they want and do anything they want as much as they want, you need a system to account for that. Inquisition already does a bit of this by scaling its enemies to a limited extent but, in my opinion, it doesn't go far enough to account for the level of freedom and lack of direction it gives to the player.

 

Exploring most of the Hinterlands before moving onto the Storm Coast might seem like a logical progression path for a new player, but they'll quickly find that this results in the vast majority of the Storm Coast being pretty pointless for them due to the level discrepancy when they get there. 

[AlexiaRevan]

In a normal RPG where you are following the Story and mobs don't respawn , you wouldn't even think about ennemies scaling . But this game make you grind alot !! 

 

In MMO where you must grind to Level up , ennemies level up with you . (well unless it's GW2 where they go both way) . 

 

So while many don't agree with the OP . I do , so when I reach X Map I don't feel like 'Crap...I shoud've come here sooner' . 

[9TailsFox]

What is believable in the obligatory Dire Rat ™ from the starting zone suddenly levelling up to level 18 when you come back after having gained 20 levels yourself?

Does it gain class levels in Cleric and get renamed to "Dire Rat ™ of Doom +5"?

Can I play the Dire Rat ™ in my next playthrough? or at least recruit it as a companion? It would make for one hell of a party support.

What is believable in the killing 10000 Dire Rats somehow makes you strong enough to kill Dire dragon? And somehow our Mabari in DA:O killing dark spawns become Dire Mabari. In Dragon age gamplay and story is separate just few exeptions mostly in DA:O like "If you lost battle vs Loghains second in command forget her name, you go to jail". And just walking and killing trash mobs is boring, they have no importance to the story, and don't even give exp or useful items. So why have them at all?

[Fast Jimmy]

What is believable about the Dire Rat from the third zone eating our band of heroes for breakfast because they didn't grind enough beforehand?

With level scaling the Dire Rat will always play it's appropriate role in the narrative - that of a very minor adversary that the heroes can defeat pretty easily. Without level scaling, you end up with Avvar Dire Rats that people who kill Dragons must flee from.

That's not an argument for implementing level scaling. That's an argument about poor encounter design.

If someone wants to tell me the encounter design for the game was horrible, I'd agree. But the design choice to remove extensive level scaling as seen in DA2 was not a bad desig choice. Just poorly implemented.

[nici2412]

Level scaling is an awful design choice and needs to die in rpgs. It is usually used by developers who are too lazy to proper balance the game. It's extremely difficult to balance a open world game without level scaling but imo it's worth to at least to try.

[DomeWing333]

Level scaling is an awful design choice and needs to die in rpgs. It is usually used by developers who are too lazy to proper balance the game. It's extremely difficult to balance a open world game without level scaling but imo it's worth to at least to try.

I don't think it's just difficult. I think it's impossible. With an open world game like Inquisition, there's little to no control over where the player goes or what he/she does. So you'll have players entering the same zone at level 5, 10, 20 and everything in between. There's no way to provide an appropriate challenge and loot pool for each of those without scaling, unless you either do away with levels altogether or have the influence of levels on combat be negligible.

[Gileadan]

I don't think it's just difficult. I think it's impossible. With an open world game like Inquisition, there's little to no control over where the player goes or what he/she does. So you'll have players entering the same zone at level 5, 10, 20 and everything in between. There's no way to provide an appropriate challenge and loot pool for each of those without scaling, unless you either do away with levels altogether or have the influence of levels on combat be negligible.

I think that the direct influence of levels on combat should be zero. Having an indirect influence is enough, by giving you the option to improve your stats on level up. But level itself should never modify a combat mechanic. None of this MMO-inspired nonsense like "this creature is five levels below you so your crit chance goes up by 50%" or some such. That kind of mechanic is a cause of the problem, not a solution. Creatures actually don't need levels at all then, only stats that reflect how dangerous they are. It should be up to the player to build a character/party that can face the challenges at hand, without the safety net of level difference to fall back on.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think it's just difficult. I think it's impossible. With an open world game like Inquisition, there's little to no control over where the player goes or what he/she does. So you'll have players entering the same zone at level 5, 10, 20 and everything in between. There's no way to provide an appropriate challenge and loot pool for each of those without scaling, unless you either do away with levels altogether or have the influence of levels on combat be negligible.

The problem is you have zones to begin with. Or, at least, zones so artificially different in terms of difficulty.

It's just as silly to say the dire rat shouldn't be able to kill a party who can slay a dragon as it is to say "I crossed this bridge... suddenly every enemy I encounter is more difficult to kill!"

Organic level design is the solution. Level 20 dragons live next to level 2 kobolds. Open world should embrace this - the starting area may have enemies that are easy for them to fight and others they should have zero business tangling with. This should be true of the middle and ending areas as well.

[DomeWing333]

I think that the direct influence of levels on combat should be zero. Having an indirect influence is enough, by giving you the option to improve your stats on level up. But level itself should never modify a combat mechanic. None of this MMO-inspired nonsense like "this creature is five levels below you so your crit chance goes up by 50%" or some such. That kind of mechanic is a cause of the problem, not a solution. Creatures actually don't need levels at all then, only stats that reflect how dangerous they are. It should be up to the player to build a character/party that can face the challenges at hand, without the safety net of level difference to fall back on.

I would be fine with that as a solution, with levels only giving the players more useful tools to use rather than raw damage/HP boosts. As long as players are given a clear sense of progression and are rewarded for their efforts, leveling doesn't have to matter too much.

 

The problem is you have zones to begin with. Or, at least, zones so artificially different in terms of difficulty.

It's just as silly to say the dire rat shouldn't be able to kill a party who can slay a dragon as it is to say "I crossed this bridge... suddenly every enemy I encounter is more difficult to kill!"

Organic level design is the solution. Level 20 dragons live next to level 2 kobolds. Open world should embrace this - the starting area may have enemies that are easy for them to fight and others they should have zero business tangling with. This should be true of the middle and ending areas as well.

Yeah, that's an idea I was kicking around with another user in the other scaling thread. The Hinterlands was mentioned as a basis, due to the variation in enemy levels. I think there should still be general regions within a zone that determine whether the enemies there present more or less of a challenge though. Otherwise, it'll be too punishing on exploration. Another concern is how this would interact with main storyline quests.

[Wulfram]

That's not an argument for implementing level scaling. That's an argument about poor encounter design.
If someone wants to tell me the encounter design for the game was horrible, I'd agree. But the design choice to remove extensive level scaling as seen in DA2 was not a bad desig choice. Just poorly implemented.

The bad design is making the change without doing what is necessary to make it work.

And "fixing" encounter design wouldn't really work either. If you had a more natural set up with encounters from all over the level range side by side, that would be incredibly frustrating and incredibly jarring with the story because you'd constantly have to put on hold quests for no reason except that you needed to grind more.

Getting the world to work properly and believably without level scaling needs the game mechanics to change so the protagonist and party don't increase in power massively during play. But, while I'd like to see that, the sense of progression and the steady reward of improved loot is an important part of the attraction of RPGs, so that's not a change that can be made lightly either.

Design choices can't be assessed alone, or as if they were part of some ideal game where everything is exactly as you would wish it, they have to be assessed as part of the game they're in. And removing level scaling did nothing good for DAI and plenty bad.

[Sartoz]

So I know this must have been brought up allot already but it is a horrible choice. In my current game I have done the Hinterlands and the Exalted Plains. But now there is next to no benafit to going back and doing the storm coast or the area where the Avaar kidnap your men. I get next to no exp for it and weak gear. We should not be punished for doing areas out of some arbitrary order. By all means keep the Dragons and bosses strong but trash mobs and gear should level with you so doing an area is not just a chore to get what little story and power it has to offer.

Perhaps. But remember that during the "promotional year" where the game was constantly advertised with interviews and trailers, Mike Laidlaw, the Creative Director,  talked about this very topic... that enemies would not scale with your level. His mantra was  that the game was designed with "Choices and Consequences" in mind. 

[Terodil]

In a normal RPG where you are following the Story and mobs don't respawn, you wouldn't even think about ennemies scaling.

This is the heart of the matter. The open world is the root cause to so many of the problems plaguing DA:I, I really wish Bioware had stuck with what they're good at and not jumped on the Skyrim hype train.

The level scaling of DA:O was pretty much invisible. You could handwave away any consistency issues because you changed zones frequently enough to simply explain that the carta dwarves in Orzammar were stronger than the werewolves in the Brecilian Forest (in fact, tbh I never thought about it before reading through this thread. It felt natural to me). It would have been very visible and TERRIBLE if you had had the option to revisit e.g. the Cousland castle and suddenly found the Dire Rats to have similar hitpoints and damage values as the faction boss you killed 2 levels ago.

I don't know what the great appeal of the "open world" is tbh. I'd much rather have a captivating, well-crafted and cohesive story through a linear sequence of areas (which is not linear storytelling btw.), thereby eliminating level-up or storytelling issues, than a large "open world" that experiences problems like the ones we're just discussing.

Edit/PS: I just realised that DA:O could have exactly the same issues, I simply never ran into them because I always completed the zones I'd started, I didn't jump between zones while one remained unfinished. *shrugs* The point remains, level scaling is horrible if it leads to situations as described above (rat --> dire rat = faction boss).

[AlexiaRevan]

 

 

I don't know what the great appeal of the "open world" is tbh.

DAI Would have been more amazing if it stuck with both Story telling and adding the new 'Giant world ' to explore . But instead....they screw it up by making the world Giant and Gorgeous but with no tie to the main Story . 

 

If like me you play for the Story , you can easly finish the Main Story at lvl17 and never ever visit some of the Maps . 

[Terodil]

Sorry for the double-post, but I felt this had to be added as a valuable asset to the discussion:

[AresKeith]

I disagree.

[TaHol]

Level scaling is an awful design choice and needs to die in rpgs. It is usually used by developers who are too lazy to proper balance the game. It's extremely difficult to balance a open world game without level scaling but imo it's worth to at least to try.

Then I really would have wanted them to even try. They did not. They just had all kinds of components for game and smashed them together. There is ZERO balance in this game.

 

I didn't even know there is level scaling in DAO. I never noticed it.