276 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkKnightHolmes]

What are you talking about OP? In DA, everyone treats elves like sh*t. Humans talk down to them, the nobles in city elf origin treat them like objects, you have people in Ostagar presume Elf Warden is a servent, Fenris talks bad about them and Solas talks badly about them. My problem with Sera is that she acts like she's somehow super special awesome because she believes she's different than other elves while also talking like she's somehow unique for holding her opinion.

 

Fenris is all boo Dalish!

Solas is all boo Dalish!

Merrill and Velanna are all yay Dalish!

Sera is all boo Dalish!

 

Zevran is honestly the only elf that was truly normal about it. He was an elf but he never brought it up nor treated other elves differently for being city or Dalish.

[TheLittleTpot]

Honestly, I was surprised the first time around how often I found myself not agreeing with Sera's views. This didn't make me dislike her though, because her views at least make sense to me. Same thing with Iron Bull; I may not agree entirely with the Qun, but at least I understand the reasoning behind the things he's telling me.

 

That's why I think the characters in Inquisition are especially great. How many people have friends, or partners for that matter, who agree with them 100% of the time?

 

P.S. On another note, I find it ironic that the people of tumblr have so much hate for Sera when she's the character they seem to have the most in common with; all have some firmly held belief and/or cause and if you question or challenge it in any way, you're an idiot. The naivety is frankly adorable 

[Addai]

Being Andrastian isn't "pretending to be human"

To an elf who follows their traditional pantheon it is. Insisting otherwise is trying to handwave centuries of humans oppressing elven belief, trying their damndest- both Tevinter and later the White Chantry- to erase elven traditional culture, language and religion. Again, it costs someone literally nothing to say "you should just go with the flow and be a 'normal person'," when that person is already in the flow and happy to be carried along by it.

[Patient.Zero]

What are you talking about OP? In DA, everyone treats elves like sh*t. Humans talk down to them, the nobles in city elf origin treat them like objects, you have people in Ostagar presume Elf Warden is a servent, Fenris talks bad about them and Solas talks badly about them. My problem with Sera is that she acts like she's somehow super special awesome because she believes she's different than other elves while also talking like she's somehow unique for holding her opinion.

 

I was referring to the Tolkien-esque perception of elves that people have. The general belief of people in the Dragon Age universe (and at times people of earth) is that all the terrible things that happened to the elves are due to external factors. As "history" dictates, if Tevinter hadn't intervened then the elves would be liven' large as mystical immortal beings. However, as you continue play the game you begin to realize through codexes and main story missions that is entirely false. The ancient elves were there own undoing and the Dalish, who believe themselves to be proper/superior elves actually have no idea what their culture is about. In short it's not the personal respect that an individual affords an elf that i'm referring to, instead it's the general belief that the elven race is special at all. 

 

Disclaimer: I feel that I should make clear that I have no problem with elves (be they in the Tolkien or Dragon Age universe) I just think the idea that there is specific connotation assigned to any race is a bit outlandish.

[Mihura]

Just a little warning..

 

I'm not one hundred percent certain but I'm pretty sure this person you're arguing with, is the same person who has a reputation of coming onto these forums and complaining about Sera, continues to recycle the same arguments over and over and over again.. and basically, it's like playing a never-ending tennis match, but with less grunting, more whining.

 

Well I did not know I was famous, I barley come to the forum now. It is mostly for getting news lol

The last time I was on a Sera topic, I end up defending her against people wanting to slap Sera and stating that, the kick option should not be there. So I am not really sure what are you going about there? but hey I am not the only one repeating myself, everyone is.

The only thing I am guilt of, is being disappointed with her character and maybe trying to explain why, when people ask. 

[Heimdall]

To an elf who follows their traditional pantheon it is. Insisting otherwise is trying to handwave centuries of humans oppressing elven belief, trying their damndest- both Tevinter and later the White Chantry- to erase elven traditional culture, language and religion. Again, it costs someone literally nothing to say "you should just go with the flow and be a 'normal person'," when that person is already in the flow and happy to be carried along by it.

Of course the dalish would make that judgment, they have an agenda.  It suits their interests to deny Andrastian elves any legitimate identity for not adhering to the their particular ideals. Its a large part of the reason I don't like them.

 

Insisting as such is to support a racialized ideology of religious conformity.  Shartan was Andrastian, Ameridan had his syncretism, it didn't stop them from reconciling being both Andrastian and elves.  Even what the Chantry has done in the meantime doesn't change that reconciling the two is possible.  It does not require elves to "pretend they are human" much as the dalish would love to delegitimize them.

[KaiserShep]

Well I did not know I was famous, I barley come to the forum now. It is mostly for getting news lol

 

Walking around with Kuvira's face has that effect.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Of course the dalish would make that judgment, they have an agenda.  It suits their interests to deny Andrastian elves any legitimate identity for not adhering to the their particular ideals. Its a large part of the reason I don't like them.

 

Insisting as such is to support a racialized ideology of religious conformity.  Shartan was Andrastian, Ameridan had his syncretism, it didn't stop them from reconciling being both Andrastian and elves.  Even what the Chantry has done in the meantime doesn't change that reconciling the two is possible.  It does not require elves to "pretend they are human" much as the dalish would love to delegitimize them.

 

I feel Sera showcases the other extreme, the people who say ''I don't care about X!'' so much you start suspecting they actually do care. She quite simply dislikes the Dalish and the associated ''elfyness''. She takes enough pains to distance herself from that identity that I don't truly believe she just wants to be ''people''.

 

As someone said, Zevran is really the only elf who did not let his race influence who he was in any way. He didn't need to remind everyone that he wasn't like these people and didn't like these people.

 

As for the break up, while the Inquisitor isn't the brightest person for trying to get together with a person who is quite vocal about disliking their people, Sera demanding that Quizzy change all that, up to pretty much forsaking a key part of their identity, is a really low blow. She's being incredibly selfish and immature here. 

 

I don't know. Some people seem to think those traits make her quirky and likeable, more power to them. I just find her supremely annoying. I don't need my companions sucking up to me, but I draw the line at filfth flinging from a bratty teenager who can't accept that the world is more complicated than she thinks.

[Addai]

Of course the dalish would make that judgment, they have an agenda.  It suits their interests to deny Andrastian elves any legitimate identity for not adhering to the their particular ideals. Its a large part of the reason I don't like them.

 

Insisting as such is to support a racialized ideology of religious conformity.  Shartan was Andrastian, Ameridan had his syncretism, it didn't stop them from reconciling being both Andrastian and elves.  Even what the Chantry has done in the meantime doesn't change that reconciling the two is possible.  It does not require elves to "pretend they are human" much as the dalish would love to delegitimize them.

And for Sera being "just people" is for a Dalish or more traditional elf to renounce their heritage and accept the mainstream culture, which for the Dalish is as good as putting the yoke back on. She can't live and let live any more than they will. So maybe you ought to direct your comments about tolerance at the Sera fans?

 

BTW we know of several instances where a city elf was accepted into a Dalish clan, and I don't recall any talk of forced conversions. The Dalish Warden in Origins tells Pol that if he makes himself useful to the clan, he'll be accepted.

[Rel Fexive]

And for Sera being "just people" is for a Dalish or more traditional elf to renounce their heritage and accept the mainstream culture, which for the Dalish is as good as putting the yoke back on. She can't live and let live any more than they will. So maybe you ought to direct your comments about tolerance at the Sera fans?

 

BTW we know of several instances where a city elf was accepted into a Dalish clan, and I don't recall any talk of forced conversions. The Dalish Warden in Origins tells Pol that if he makes himself useful to the clan, he'll be accepted.

 

I don't know where you're getting that from.

[sim-ran]

I don't generally agree with Sera's views, but I usually get where she's coming from and find her perspective pleasing fresh and often quite insightful.

And I can totally see why she'd feel how she does about the Dalish. She sees their culture very negatively and why wouldn't she? They live a backwards nomad life, trying to live a 'traditional Dalish lifestyle' even though it is very clear that they know next to nothing about the ancient ways and never will.

Cultures are supposed to move forward. The Dalish lifestyle is pretty messed up.

[Addai]

I don't know where you're getting that from.

Getting what from?

[Heimdall]

Getting what from?

That Sera's "Just people" means Andrastian people only.

 

Sera's problem with dalish ideaology isn't that she thinks they should be Andrastian, its that dalish ideology supports a racial "us versus them" dichotomy that she's vehemently opposed to and insist on identifying themselves as practicing the one true elven culture.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

That Sera's "Just people" means Andrastian people only.

 

Sera's problem with dalish ideaology isn't that she thinks they should be Andrastian, its that dalish ideology supports a racial "us versus them" dichotomy that she's vehemently opposed to and insist on identifying themselves as practicing the one true elven culture.

 

That's pretty much all religions in Thedas. At least the Dalish keep to themselves and aren't like the Qunari who dream of invading Thedas or the Chantry who believe that spreading their religion around the whole world will lead to the Maker coming back.

 

I think she's just had some bad experience with some Dalish Clan and is now incredibly bitter about it.

[Addai]

That Sera's "Just people" means Andrastian people only.

 

Sera's problem with dalish ideaology isn't that she thinks they should be Andrastian, its that dalish ideology supports a racial "us versus them" dichotomy that she's vehemently opposed to and insist on identifying themselves as practicing the one true elven culture.

Andrastianism is the ideology that enforces an "us versus them" policy. The Dalish just want to be left alone to pursue their own beliefs and culture.

 

I understand that Sera can't grasp this, because she's just not mature enough to accept that some differences aren't reconcilable by "just give up your stupid demon worship why don't you" type thinking.

[Heimdall]

Andrastianism is the ideology that enforces an "us versus them" policy. The Dalish just want to be left alone to pursue their own beliefs and culture.

 

I understand that Sera can't grasp this, because she's just not mature enough to accept that some differences aren't reconcilable by "just give up your stupid demon worship why don't you" type thinking.

Are you kidding me?  The dalish philosophy is all about "us versus them dirty shems" and patronizing pity (At best, disdain at worst) for city elves that don't follow them.  They believe all elves should follow their ideas, and only elves.  Say what you want about Andrastianism, but it isn't racially exclusive.

 

Sera grasps that part just fine.

[Addai]

Are you kidding me?  The dalish philosophy is all about "us versus them dirty shems" and patronizing pity (At best, disdain at worst) for city elves that don't follow them.  They believe all elves should follow their ideas, and only elves.  Say what you want about Andrastianism, but it isn't racially exclusive.

 

Sera grasps that part just fine.

The Dalish disdain city elves for the same reason Morrigan disdains Circle mages- because they allow themselves to be oppressed and live in abjection. Dalish belief, however, isn't proselytizing or expansionistic. Their views on Andrastian elves are complicated by political and power dynamics- viewing them as collaborators in the oppression of their own people. History is rarely kind to the fifth column.

 

I think it's kind of useless to talk about Sera's approach as if it's a fully realized, mature philosophy. It's a child's view of religion. "That's scary so I want to pretend it doesn't exist."

[Mihura]

Are you kidding me?  The dalish philosophy is all about "us versus them dirty shems" and patronizing pity (At best, disdain at worst) for city elves that don't follow them.  They believe all elves should follow their ideas, and only elves.  Say what you want about Andrastianism, but it isn't racially exclusive.

 

Sera grasps that part just fine.

 

I have to disagree, Andrastianism is on the surface that. Leliana says in DA:I that they should accept everyone of any race, this means that is not true currently.

And it is unfair to say all the dalish are like that too, it is like saying all Andrastian are extremist that want to kill foes unarmed aka Ser Varnell. Unfortunately Sera does the same "us versus them", she gives no choice to the Dalish Inquisitor when it comes to her gods.

Someone mention that she, seem to be like a teen that want to be cool, getting far way from a group of people because she does not want to be associated with them. Hum... maybe she does not hate the elven culture, maybe it is really just self-hate that was imposed by her mother and culture, this made me think....

[Heimdall]

I have to disagree, Andrastianism is on the surface that. Leliana says in DA:I that they should accept everyone of any race, this means that is not true currently.

Brother Burkle and that elf who becomes a sister in DA2 disagree, the limitation Leliana speaks of is in entering the priesthood, becoming a mother-revered mother-grand cleric, etc. There is no race gate on following Andraste as part of the congregation or a sister or brother.

And it is unfair to say all the dalish are like that too, it is like saying all Andrastian are extremist that want to kill foes unarmed aka Ser Varnell. Unfortunately Sera does the same "us versus them", she gives no choice to the Dalish Inquisitor when it comes to her gods.

Someone mention that she, seem to be like a teen that want to be cool, getting far way from a group of people because she does not want to be associated with them. Hum... maybe she does not hate the elven culture, maybe it is really just self-hate that was imposed by her mother and culture, this made me think....

I say all Dalish because every clan we've encountered has been either patronising or outright scornful towards non-Dalish elves. The only possible exception being Lavellan, whose clan is noted to be an exception amongst the Dalish. Which would indicate that the alternative is indeed the norm, not the extreme.

I've explained that Sera's feelings about the elves have nothing to do with self-hate too many times to be bothered to do it again.

[Felya87]

If Sera was only racist towards the Dalish I would actually understand her (I don't really like the Dalish myself. I prefer much more the City Elves.). But she is quite bad towards all that is about elves. She disapproves my Inquisitor even when she said to the elf with the cultist to go back to his parents. How "elfy" must it be??? He is Andrastian, he is just a boy send back home to parents that actually need him.

 

And she is against Briala too. I find that Sera doesn't like anything I do to help elves in general. No matter if Dalish or City Elves. The only time I'm gentle with an elf and she approve is when I understand the lesbian scout that was having an affair with a rebel mage (if she is an Elf...I can't really say...). But I never seen any other interaction with elves that she approve of. None. But I must admit that after some time, I became really tired of her, so I left her in Skyhold for most of the time.

[frankf43]

Someone can have a completely different belief system as you and you can make it work.

 

Not if they absolutely scared stiff of what you believe in. Sara has no tolerance of the Dalsih belief system or culture system. She believes that it's flawed and damaging to the people who believe in it.

 

You know this from before the time you can enter into a relationship with her. 

[Sundance31us]

I wonder what Inquisitor Ameridan would have made of her.

[Heimdall]

And she is against Briala too. I find that Sera doesn't like anything I do to help elves in general. No matter if Dalish or City Elves. The only time I'm gentle with an elf and she approve is when I understand the lesbian scout that was having an affair with a rebel mage (if she is an Elf...I can't really say...). But I never seen any other interaction with elves that she approve of. None. But I must admit that after some time, I became really tired of her, so I left her in Skyhold for most of the time.

With Briala, Sera's issue is more because she sees her as an aristocrat playing up the fact that she has pointed ears to make a powerplay against her scorned lover. She doesn't think Briala actually cares.

And generally she doesn't approve of causes "for the elves" because that doesn't mean much to her. Who are the elves? The Andrastian elves in the Alienage? The Dalish in the woods? Some half remembered daydream of what the elves used to be thousands of years past? What do any of those things have to do with her, an elven girl adopted and raised among humans?

[Felya87]

And generally she doesn't approve of causes "for the elves" because that doesn't mean much to her. Who are the elves? The Andrastian elves in the Alienage? The Dalish in the woods? Some half remembered daydream of what the elves used to be thousands of years past? What do any of those things have to do with her, an elven girl adopted and raised among humans?

I would really love a way to remind her that her "little people" are still better treated than the elves. But we can't. I have to stay there and just "let it pass". And people actually say Solas is racist...Sera really make me sick...