56 réponses à ce sujet

[Rainbowhawk]

As you probably have seen, people are still pissed on this site and everywhere else. We get a handful of harmful comments:

- I played ME1 and ME2 routinely but when ME3 came up, I just couldn't play it more than once
 
- Whenever I play ME3, I go all the way to the beam and then stop playing and fill my own canon.

- All they had to do was remove the godchild and they could have fixed everything, but they ignored us. Therefore Bioware can never be trusted again so I will never buy a single one of their products.
 
- The Bioware team could have both pleased their fans and would have been remembered as genesis in the story department if they had listened to the fans and adopted the Indoctrination Theory. But they didn't. They're no different than EA now, so I will never buy a single one of their products ever again.
 
and my personal favorite
 
- Maybe now that Casey's not working the next ME it may have a chance of being good.
 
First off, I will never forget this:
 
Casey + Bioware + Lucas arts = KOTOR = 9/10 ----------> Mass Effect
 
Lucas Arts - Casey - Bioware + Obsidian = KOTOR2 = 7/10
 
Furthermore,
 
Disney + SW - Lucas + Abrams = VII = ?
 
Marvel + Brain Singer = X-MEN = X2 = 9/10
 
X-men - Brain Singer = The Last Stand = 6/10
 
X-men: First Class + The Wolverine + Brain Singer = Days of Future Past = Fixed
 
Alien + Aliens - Ridley Scott - James Carmon = Alien 3 + Resurrection + AVP + AVPR = BAAAAARRRRRFFFFFF!!!
 
James Camron = Terminator + T2 = 9/10
 
Terminator - James Camron = T3 + Terminator Salvation = 7/10
 
As for the next one:
 
Halo - Bungie + 343 + Chris Schlerf = Halo 4 = :'(

ME4 - Casey + Mac + Chris = ?
 
I think you can get the point.
 
But getting back to my original topic, do you really think the ME franchise was ruined and it must be hated for the rest of it's existence because it didn't do what some people wanted it to do? People hating ME3 because the IM was no longer a grey character? ME3 is crap because of a super weapon being a plot device? ME3 is crap because of the god child?
 
Well here's my reply. ME3 is the best of the trilogy for a number of reasons:
 
- Characters actually has stuff to say that are connected through a central plot and not a segregated short story that has zero connection to the other segregated short stories
- Shepard has a personality and flaws in his/her character as s/he humanized and is forced to struggle through what he/she needs to do
- Anderson's a motivator and not just a hi/bye person
- A grey choice at the end
 
As for all the shortcomings that are obvious, I do what other true fans should do:
 
Play off the imperfection
 
And truth be told, there isn't too much imperfection unlike others, *cough cough Dead Space 3 Awakened cough cough*, that make it have an undesirable outcome:
 
-Reapers stopped (In my case destroyed)
-Majority of crew men alive
-Relays fixed so everyone can go home
-Shepard lives in the last moment
 
But there is the imperfection of EDI and the Geth. And that can make way for a new story. A new story that goes hand in hand with something that comes after war: PTSD. And when you put on top of that the front edge of the double edged sword that is a relatively open end, there might be a way to undo curtain imperfection.

*cough cough David Archer cough cough*
 
https://www.fanficti...4927/14/Victory
 
So at the end of the day, there could have been a lot that could have been done different, (Suicide mission elements for Priority Earth for me), but looking at what's given and what can be worked with, is there a reason to hate and be angry for the rest of your life? No. I loved every moment of the Trilogy and with Leviathan and the EC for the new comers to experience with the rest, we were really happy with the ending.
 
P.S. I've got a little something of why the Indoc theory was never put into consideration which in turn makes the trilogy better:

[TheN7Penguin]

I agree.

 

And, I mean, since Mass Effect 1 I've wanted to destroy the Reapers.

In Mass Effect 3 I got to do it.

No complaints from me.

 

And I think that people forget that it is BioWare's universe, not theirs. They can do what they like in their universe - even if that would mean creating a giant marshmallow-textured Hanar firing thanix cannons at the Reapers from each of its tentacles. They can do what the hell they want. So even if the Crucible is a bit of a deux ex machina, and the Catalyst is just introducing a new enemy straight at the end - it is all possible within their universe. Don't like it - don't play it - don't complain about it; because no matter how angry the haters get or how much they complain, it will gain them absolutely nothing.

 

And there are eight different endings to Mass Effect 3 anyway, which is good, given the video game medium and how linear the majority of video games actually are.

[Rainbowhawk]

And there are eight different endings to Mass Effect 3 anyway, which is good, given the video game medium and how linear the majority of video games actually are.

30 when you put the EC slide show into account.

[TheN7Penguin]

Yes. And, it is rare to find a game which feels so rewarding, so emotionally engaging and so fun to play. Even if you think the ending was bad - you still have nearly ninety hours of fantastic gaming to make up for it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But who really paid that much attention to the differences in the slide presentations? I didn't see 30 different endings. I only saw three that looked remarkably similar except for the color of the explosions on my screen. I saw the destroy ending to the EC twice. The others I saw pre-EC. The other EC endings I saw on Youtube. The endings sucked. The variation to the endings are meaningless if the ending itself sucks.

 

Compared to the ME3 ending, the DAI ending is phenomenal.

[cap and gown]

Compared to the ME3 ending, the DAI ending is phenomenal.

 

Are you talking about the Epilogue? Cuz I thought the final "defeat the bad guy" thing was anti-climactic, and the slide presentation was meh.

[TheN7Penguin]

I don't think the quote button is actually working for me at this current moment. Oh well.

 

I haven't actually completed Dragon Age: Inquisition, yet. Or any of them, for that matter. The combat... doesn't especially appeal to me as such.

 

In terms of the 3 endings rather than 8 or 30 - aren't there a lot of benefits to looking at the details? The Indoctrination Theory proves that - whether it is true or not is another matter entirely, but nevertheless. And even the Mass Effect games themselves need you to look at the details to grasp the true meaning of what's happening - I recently realised that you shoot Mordin in ME3 with a Carnifex, which was the same gun he gave you in ME2 as a sign of good will. Details like that make the Mass Effect games good - you can't just ignore them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Are you talking about the Epilogue? Cuz I thought the final "defeat the bad guy" thing was anti-climactic, and the slide presentation was meh.

 

I said in comparison to the ME3 ending. My inquisitor defeated the bad guy, returned to the palace in victory, then banged Cullen. It doesn't get any better. Slide shows will always be "meh" and I don't care about them.

 

I'm a romantic, not a cerebral person. Character interaction and their story arcs are what is important, not making philosophical decisions. There were two story arcs that had philosophical aspects - the genophage, and the Quarians/Geth arc. The reapers were never about philosophy until the final 10 minutes when you were supposed to wonder if you were the bad guy fighting the good guys, in which case it become all about coming to grips with who you really are: "I am the bad guy." Shoot the tube regardless of the consequences.

[WarChicken78]

I just today finished my Insanity run and when doing so I tested the "Mass Effect Happy Ending Mod".

It was better than the ending before. A lot better.

 

It is still not the ending I'd have preferred, but if someone made the ending I liked, most likely someone would have found it lame.

I do see, that I am just one of a huge fanbase and while the normal ending is just ridiculous - storytelling wise, I can live with the MEHEM end quite well, even it's a little too much roses and butterflies for me personally.

[TheN7Penguin]

See, although I think the ending could potentially be a lot better than it was - I don't think there is a need to make such a big thing about it. It's alright to think, "the ending was bad", but a different matter entirely to go, "HOLY CRAP THIS ENDING WAS TERRIBLE I'LL NEVER BUY ANOTHER BIOWARE PRODUCT AGAIN [insert needless angry remarks here]". Everyone makes mistakes - and, correct me if I'm wrong - but wasn't it because the original ending was leaked in the first place? So why not just hate on the people who leaked the ending, which would make a lot more sense.

[Linkenski]

I don't care what the consensus is. To me KOTOR 2 was a far more intelligent and quality entry in the star wars franchise than KOTOR 1 was, so to me the original is like an 8/10 and KOTOR 2 is a 9/10, only hampered by technical issues and rushed endgame.

I think Casey was the "Christopher Nolan" of Mass Effect. He influenced many, many decisions with all three games - at large he was simply the director and at the tail end his misguided understanding of narrative led to the downfall of their own fiction.

I think he was a double edged sword but we might notice some sort of spark that is lacking with NextME since he's no longer involved.

Or perhaps we might not. It's largely a different developer making it (I see Montreal as it's own developer), a completely new Lead Writer, but a previous writer being the director.

It really can go both ways, but I feel with Bioware games being more and more about gameplay > story and rushed cycles, I'm just very skeptical of NextME.

As for the "imperfection" of the current trilogy, though... I don't really see a lot there can be worked with, except for the reaper origins, synthetic singularity theme etc. but those are all things that would irk me if NextME dabbled around in them.

EDI and the Geth were imperfect arcs but they were concluded, so I don't see why we would need to see those reopened and making ME3 lose merit.

[TheN7Penguin]

I think the main criticism of the games themselves is that the gameplay is rather clunky and not very advanced in comparison to some of the newer games which do focus on gameplay rather than story. It is only natural that they'd attempt to improve the gameplay to be able to cope with more modern demands - in the same respect that recent horror movies are focusing more on the scares rather than the plots and the characters because people are harder to scare these days. It is something I disagree with, but I think it's fairly understandable?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't care what the consensus is. To me KOTOR 2 was a far more intelligent and quality entry in the star wars franchise than KOTOR 1 was, so to me the original is like an 8/10 and KOTOR 2 is a 9/10, only hampered by technical issues and rushed endgame.

I think Casey was the "Christopher Nolan" of Mass Effect. He influenced many, many decisions with all three games - at large he was simply the director and at the tail end his misguided understanding of narrative led to the downfall of their own fiction.

I think he was a double edged sword but we might notice some sort of spark that is lacking with NextME since he's no longer involved.

Or perhaps we might not. It's largely a different developer making it (I see Montreal as it's own developer), a completely new Lead Writer, but a previous writer being the director.

It really can go both ways, but I feel with Bioware games being more and more about gameplay > story and rushed cycles, I'm just very skeptical of NextME.

As for the "imperfection" of the current trilogy, though... I don't really see a lot there can be worked with, except for the reaper origins, synthetic singularity theme etc. but those are all things that would irk me if NextME dabbled around in them.

EDI and the Geth were imperfect arcs but they were concluded, so I don't see why we would need to see those reopened and making ME3 lose merit.

 

I like KoTOR II more than KoTOR I too!

 

As for Casey Hudson, I think he always had more passion that know-how. Some of the interviews he gives makes it sound like he's playing a different franchise. Ultimately though, I don't think there will be much of different feel with the next game. There's new people involved but they still answer to those higher up on the chain. It'll have the same mix of good writing and frustrating moments. They'll patch over some of the complaints made with the other games, with various degrees of success/nonsuccess, and there will be strives of ambition or attempts to emulate something else popular that will have the same spectrum of success/nonsuccess. Basically, Inquisition.

[AlanC9]

- The Bioware team could have both pleased their fans and would have been remembered as genesis in the story department if they had listened to the fans and adopted the Indoctrination Theory. But they didn't. They're no different than EA now, so I will never buy a single one of their products ever again.

IT was popular? I remember it mostly being laughed at.

[AlanC9]

P.S. I've got a little something of why the Indoc theory was never put into consideration which in turn makes the trilogy better:

Did anyone actually look at this thing? I'm pretty averse to wasting 24 minutes watching an argument I could read in three.

[ImaginaryMatter]

IT was popular? I remember it mostly being laughed at.

 

I thought it was taken more seriously during the initial reaction to the ending before the EC came out.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Also after the EC came out there was a concerted effort to censor discussion about IT.

[AlanC9]

Well, that's because those discussions tended to get acrimonious. I was in there swinging away myself.

[cap and gown]

Did anyone actually look at this thing? I'm pretty averse to wasting 24 minutes watching an argument I could read in three.

 

I watched it. I think the presenter basically read a lot into the script that I doubt the writers intended. Perhaps if he had done more to say "this is one way to read the script that makes the story more fulfilling" it would be fine, but I do not believe the writers actually set out to tell the story the video wants us to believe is there.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Like the use of Shepard's armor - one of the higher paid people on the Bioware staff thought it would be "cute" for Legion to use Shepard's armor. There was no philosophical message.

[Rainbowhawk]

I watched it. I think the presenter basically read a lot into the script that I doubt the writers intended. Perhaps if he had done more to say "this is one way to read the script that makes the story more fulfilling" it would be fine, but I do not believe the writers actually set out to tell the story the video wants us to believe is there.

Well the seven headed beast with the mortally wounded head representing the Krogan is very hard to dispute.

Also he brought up the point that the Original ending supporters said: When you're on the Citadel, you don't know what's become of all the characters and people you've rallied. All that matters is that you finish it, no matter the cost. Also the reasons why you would choose a choice over another are up to you based on what you've experienced through out the series. Would EDI want you to destroy the Reapers when she knew she and the geth, if they're alive, would die. Shepard doesn't know. Would the peace with Synthetics end causing more conflict without intervention (Control, Synthesis). You don't know. You're going to have to make a judgment call and hope it's the right one.

Plus there's the point of the open end that the player interprets what will happen next. Not all the choices you made are seen in the epilogue, but some are and the rest are up for the player to interpreted. For example, I had an Idea that lead to my fan-fic I linked: Shepard awakens in a hospital (Like any other Post-destroy fic/DeviantArt), he arises to see the galaxy rebuilding, he comes across a situation I came up with from seeing a part of the story that's unresolved, (David Archer + Geth Greybox = ?) and I come up with my location of where he and Liara will settle which I won't say yet.

But to your statement, it's one way of seeing the story and a way that makes me prove my point. Imperfection made a way for interpretation that makes it great in a way.

[Rainbowhawk]

There is one "imperfection" in Mass Effect 3's design that I don't think has a work around. It stems from the design of using a multiple choice ending structure.
 
Multiple Choice elements are VERY problematic.  The problem is "Choice Supportive Bias". It's part of the human condition and one of the key parts of what makes consumers tick, develop brand equity connections and fuel internet "debate" about why one choice is better than the other options. When presented with a choice, you tend to compare and contrast the alternatives. Once you've chosen an option, a process called "post decisional dissonance" starts to work it's magic.  This is a feeling you have committed to one option when another option may have been better, this process of questioning a choice can increase anxiety and discomfort.  To combat this anxiety, you start to rationalize the decision and generate a belief that this choice is the best option.
 
All of this forms a giant neurological cluster of associations, emotions, details of self-image and biases around the choice you made. How this may be even worse for a game like Mass Effect because it was an exceptionally powerful brand equity vehicle that triggered deep emotional connections with its consumers. The depth of these connections are finalized within the choice made at the ending and further reinforced by any debate or self justification of the choice between consumers. The fiercer the debate, the more ingrained the choice becomes.
 
And the more difficult it is to design a solution or develop a future for the franchise without compromise.

So what would be the alternative that would go with SolePorpoise's video? (The one I linked.)

But if what you said was true, wouldn't that lead to another story to be explored that goes with PTSD like I said before? Was it the right choice? Could I had done better if I'd taken a risk? It's something to be explored. It's grey that the series lacked. It was obvious what each circumstance was in ME1 and ME2; the crappy Politian or the trusted war veteran for councilor? Destroy the Collector base that gives you a blue star or keep the base that gives you a red star? All those choices were black and white but this ending gives much needed grey.

An idea for the next ME: if you have to support a certain Politian, do you choose the aggressive kind that might cause a war but will get things done or the cautious kind that might try to seek an alternative but might take too much time before it's too late?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The other thing that is neglected in the game is the theme of hope. It gives everyone hope. Just think about this for a minute. The game shows us that anyone can become a hero. Any one of us can. If a person who thought Asari needed other species to reproduce (in both ME1 and ME2) can become the savior of the galaxy and a legend, by the gods anyone can.