"When humanity discovered the mass relays, when we learned there was more to the galaxy than we imagined... there were some who thought the relays should be destroyed. They were scared of what we'd find, terrified of what we might let in. But look at what humanity has achieved! Since that discovery, we've advanced more than the past ten thousand years combined!"
- The Illusive Man
So what do you think? Should the relays have been destroyed, or at least deactivated?
Hard to say, but as a more scientific person, I'd say no. It's too big of a find to waste, even with all the risks.
After all, humans are driven by curiosity, but we are horrified by change.
But in the hindsight:
If the Charon Relay was left inactivated, it would have been remotely activated by the Reapers when they returned to reap.
Destroying it would have been a really bad call since it would have blasted the entire solar system.
No, its like with the atomic power, once you got it you cant hide from it and if you dont at least have some ability to wield it you are going to be 2nd or 3rd rate.
Not destroyed but very thuroghly studied first, then turn it on and try unmaned test runs, and continue the cautiousness. But humanity almost never acts rationally so chances are we'd activate it and rush headfirst into whatever was on the other side.
If we found an alien device somewhere in our solar system, I would definitely support turning it on once we had an idea of what it was, or at least what it wasn't.
I love that quote btw, nice back story to the universe prior mass effect 1. Well spoken as it provides support for the Illusive Man's argument for enhancement and control. Much more appealing then the villain acting evil for the sake of being evil.
Well when something like that would be discovered once then there will be no back.
When people find something revolutionary which changes their lifes and view on the world like gunpowder , antibiotics , electrical power, atomic energy , eventually the mass relays...............then that's it and it's imposible to get back at the point before that discovery.
Nope.
I do believe some things shouldn't be rubbed, but you can't just put the genie back in the bottle, that's not how it works.
Potentially, humanity could have held back on activating the relay and instead focused on improving themselves (in several major and extensive ways) before facing the Beyond.
But would it have taken more than 10,000 years? Hey, maybe.
But that's the trap of the mass relays. TIM has fallen for it. Now do we want to lash out at the trappers or hear them out?
Well when something like that would be discovered once then there will be no back.
When people find something revolutionary which changes their lifes and view on the world like gunpowder , antibiotics , electrical power, atomic energy , eventually the mass relays...............then that's it and it's imposible to get back at the point before that discovery.
The Japanese would disagree with you. Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu came to power through the use of firearms, but once Tokugawa had solidified his position, he outlawed firearms completely.
Of course, he also cut off almost all contact with the outside world which turned out to be a disaster for his successors when Commodore Perry showed up.
Without a way to the expand the human species onto other habitable worlds the earth would have been exhausted and overpopulated and then the humans would start killing eachother for what is left, like the Drell.
Without a way to the expand the human species onto other habitable worlds the earth would have been exhausted and overpopulated and then the humans would start killing eachother for what is left, like the Drell.
You don't know that. But I guess that pessimistic view is common.
You don't know that. But I guess that pessimistic view is common.
Eventually we'll have to leave this place though. Overpopulation is inevitable. We're also not going to be able to adapt to climate change at this rate.
You've already made this thread nkga.
I didn't think it were possible for anyone short of a reaper to actually shut down one of those puppies? You could, as proven, slam one with a big rock and...well...yikes!!
Now that the Illusive man was such a stickler about humanity gaining ground, even if'n when it became necessary to become "less" than human to do so...he is/was a piece of work. In the length of time, even though short, but longer than the average human (apparently around before and after Sheps rezostruction) TIM was sociopathic loner who just looooved the human race, or at least his version...
But anyway, no the means to travel the galaxy needed to be had, even though it were essentially a best laid plan,,er... trap by intellect yet known and never really understood. Shepard/Humanity just took that too.. strange that?
i look at this in real life with this example......
you are gonna go explore mountains armed with a sling shot..... do you honestly feel prepared for what you could encounter? lmao
it's not like humans/anybody has a choice. That universe tends toward a maximum..er..maxim... uh. never mind! 
You've already made this thread nkga.
Years ago, and with a different focus. Now I just want the quote's sentiment to be discussed. I think the Illusive Man makes an excellent point, and I don't know how we, as the audience, are supposed to take it. He's indoctrinated, the Paragon arguments are about how his reach is exceeding his grasp, and how that can lead to only bad things. But then the Catalyst reveals that control of the Reapers is possible, so the Illusive Man wasn't completely insane after all. So then maybe he actually did have a point all along? Great civilizations should control rather than destroy? Then is Anderson wrong? But the whole game told us that "Dead Reapers is how we win this," and "We destroy them, or they destroy us."
It's simply another piece of the frustrating ambiguity of the ending. What bothers me most is that people like to frame the Illusive Man as wrong about everything, that his entire philosophy is fundamentally broken. I don't think it is. The biggest problem is that he takes everything to an extreme. Human evolution at all costs, human dominance, etc.
What if Cerberus actually worked with the galaxy to build the Crucible and proved to everyone that the Reapers could be controlled and used for the benefit of all? From what I understand, they didn't do that in the story because they feared, perhaps rightfully so, that no one would listen to them because the majority would want the Reapers to be destroyed, and the Illusive Man was bent on specifically human dominance anyway. But I still wonder if the galaxy could have warmed up to the idea of controlling the Reapers. As it stands now, the story makes far too many players take a very strange anti-progress/technology stance that I don't think they really believe, all because the Illusive Man had to be invalidated and the giant Lovecraftian monsters had to be killed. And you can't question the mission to kill the monsters, because if you do, then "you've gotten a little too close to the enemy." Frankly, that sounds like Indoctrination.
Years ago, and with a different focus. Now I just want the quote's sentiment to be discussed. I think the Illusive Man makes an excellent point, and I don't know how we, as the audience, are supposed to take it. He's indoctrinated, the Paragon arguments are about how his reach is exceeding his grasp, and how that can lead to only bad things. But then the Catalyst reveals that control of the Reapers is possible, so the Illusive Man wasn't completely insane after all. So then maybe he actually did have a point all along? Great civilizations should control rather than destroy? Then is Anderson wrong? But the whole game told us that "Dead Reapers is how we win this," and "We destroy them, or they destroy us."
It's simply another piece of the frustrating ambiguity of the ending. What bothers me most is that people like to frame the Illusive Man as wrong about everything, that his entire philosophy is fundamentally broken. I don't think it is. The biggest problem is that he takes everything to an extreme. Human evolution at all costs, human dominance, etc.
What if Cerberus actually worked with the galaxy to build the Crucible and proved to everyone that the Reapers could be controlled and used for the benefit of all? From what I understand, they didn't do that in the story because they feared, perhaps rightfully so, that no one would listen to them because the majority would want the Reapers to be destroyed, and the Illusive Man was bent on specifically human dominance anyway. But I still wonder if the galaxy could have warmed up to the idea of controlling the Reapers. As it stands now, the story makes far too many players take a very strange anti-progress/technology stance that I don't think they really believe, all because the Illusive Man had to be invalidated and the giant Lovecraftian monsters had to be killed. And you can't question the mission to kill the monsters, because if you do, then "you've gotten a little too close to the enemy." Frankly, that sounds like Indoctrination.
"dead reapers is how we win this" is just one point of view that has been exemplified.
Sure, TIM was indoctrinated, but he had the right idea. I think of him as a more sophisticated version of a Captain Flint (Black Sails) or Frank Underwood (House of Cards). He has a dream and isn't allowing anyone to get in the way of it. He views everyone and anyone as well as morals and virtue as expendable for the betterment of humanity. The end justifies the means.
None of this is to say that I would agree with the **** he pulled to achieve those means.
A random Google search produced this excellent post from Ieldra, whom many of you likely already know. I suppose it expresses what I'm trying to say here.
I think The Illusive Man was one of the most interesting characters in the trilogy, or in the ME universe. He just suffered from Bioware's typical ham-fistedness when it comes to the portrayal of evil.
A pragmatist wouldn't casually destroy rare resources like biotic children.
A pragmatist may not care about morality, but would certainly care about reputation to some extent. Reputation, after all, is one thing that gets competent people to work for you.
A pragmatist wouldn't be careless with dangerous technology, nor would he allow his subordinates to be careless as a rule.
As I see it, TIM is a tragic visionary. His agenda started about as protecting humanity from an unknown threat, which was later revealed to be the Reapers (ME:Evolution). Given the evidence of ME2, TIM was never a xenophobe, it's just that humanity was "his" faction like the nation someone is born in is "my" faction for many of us. His willingness to explore the great unknown and "bring the knowledge from there into the light" (Cerberus Manifesto), using it to protect ourselves, and to push the envelope in science and technology, is admirable and I've always supported it.
As for his methods, there's a sliding scale between "reasonable pragmatism" and "casual disregard of life". Knowing that TIM always knew about Reapers, we can ask "What price has survival? Which lines would you be willing to cross if the alternative means the death of your species and the destruction of all intelligent civilizations of the galaxy?" I'd say crossing a great many lines is justified with stakes like that. TIM's flaw was always that he didn't even try to minimize the ethical fallout of his methods, and I don't know how much of that is intentional and how much the result of the abovementioned ham-fistedness. I'd rather think in ME1 and ME2 it's mostly the latter, because all those instances made Cerberus appear stupid as much as evil. So I take those with a large grain of salt.
In the end, though, it's clear that we couldn't let him continue. Given TIM's statement "Cerberus and humanity are the same", it's likely all of humanity would've ended up like the Cerberus troopers eventually, hearing TIM's voice in their heads like the indoctrinated heard the Reapers's voice. While I don't like the metaphor, that would have fit the idea of "destroying humanity's soul".
Which raises the question: where did it all go wrong? I think TIM's isolation played a part. At some point, "humanity" became an abstract ideal to him, increasingly separate from actual humans. He forgot that at some point, "protection of humanity" has to come down to protection of humans or it doesn't mean anything any more. Add the subtle Reaper influence he's been subject to for almost 30 years, and it's a miracle he held on to his humanity for so long and even succeeded in fighting the Reapers until just before the very end.
My main Shepard is a consequentialist, as I am. He believes that some important ends justify crossing some lines, though never casually. So he was in line with the Illusive Man to some degree, particularly in ME2, and I, as a player, was annoyed by not being able to agree with him about his agenda, if not his methods. In the end, the necessity to remove him was clear, but I regretted that necessity. Regardless of the fact that he went off the deep end in the end, given that he fought a lonely battle against the Reaper influence for thirty years, he brought Shepard back from the dead and gave him the SR2, that without him, the war against the Reapers would not have been won, for me he'll always be the epitome of the Renegade anti-hero, the unsung tragic figure who does the necessary dirty work, the one who the civilization which comes after will never allow to be acknowledged.
I wish I could allow Jack Harper to go off with honor in the end without using Paragon arguments I don't believe in. Whatever he became in the end, Shepard was standing on his shoulders when he ended the war. He did more for the survival of galactic civilization than anyone else but Shepard and his team.
^ Great post indeed. Just about sums up my thoughts on the hounds of hell, as well.
And yes, eff the Paragon arguments in that TIM confrontation -- pure garbage.
i look at this in real life with this example......
you are gonna go explore mountains armed with a sling shot..... do you honestly feel prepared for what you could encounter? lmao
Its just a little white rabbit!
Its just a little white rabbit!
yes you can see little white bunnies and duckies i'll give you that buuuuuutttttt..........
Yogi isn't always look for a pic-e-nic basket boo boo lmao
A random Google search produced this excellent post from Ieldra, whom many of you likely already know. I suppose it expresses what I'm trying to say here.
That first part is really stops me from seeing anything of value in TIM.
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