36 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

I just ran a mission specifically to pick a weapon mod and in the end I still missed that mod. Indeed, I have yet to start a new game plus with all my mods at level V. They're almost always still at level IV at the start.

 

This problem of randomly finding weapons/armor/mods is even worse in DAI. There are all sorts of tutorials on "how to get the best armor/weapon/schematics" on BSN as well as youtube and other places.

 

In ME2 the problem was passing some mini-game to unlock an upgrade.

 

Over and over game designers think that randomized weapon and armor progression is fine. Why? They are as much a part of our character progression as the skills we select. Should skill points just be randomly assigned? Should a Sword and Shield warrior be randomly assigned some spell like immolate or chain lightning? Who would put up with that? Yet for some reason we put up with having our weapons and armor, which are as much a part of determining how much DPS we can dish out and absorb, given to us on a random basis, whether that is through an actual RNG, or through our tolerance for looking behind every bush and crate, or our ability to play some mini-game.

 

I don't understand the thinking here. Shouldn't a level X character have A amount of skill points, B amount of weapon damage, and C amount of armor?

 

In my preferred leveling system, at every level we would not only be rewarded with so many skill points to spend, but so many resources to spend upgrading our weapons and/or armor. I'm no more interested in a random delivery of weapons and armor than I am of a random assignment of skills. I am afraid, however, based on DAI, that the next Mass Effect is just going to turn into one giant "find the mod" hunt.

 

Exploration is all fine and dandy. But make it intrinsically rewarding (not something I felt DAI did) and if we find stuff, have it be easter eggs and unique decorative items, not items that have an effect on our combat capability. That is something I want to be under MY control, not the control of an RNG or the test of my patience for looking behind bushes.

[katamuro]

its part of the "loot" system they are trying to keep. But yeah random nature of the crafting schematics and loot in DAI is quite annoying. As for ME2-3, it does get a bit weird that you need to search around the battlefield for things especially in ME3 but it is also an attempt to make the mission progression not as linear as they actually are. 

[Vazgen]

They should at least make upgrades, weapons, armor pieces etc. also available at shops so you can spend credits and get the armor faster or search for it in the wilderness to save money. 

Locking the weapons is even more annoying. In ME3 you are pretty much required to run a NG+ character if your build is based on Falcon. 

[RedCaesar97]

I know this is mostly a rant thread about a particular game design aspect you find annoying. But I will agree that I find it somewhat annoying myself when I am trying to go for a certain build and playstyle that requires certain weapons/armor/mods and I have to wait until near the end of the game before I can finally play like I want to.

 

I have expressed my opinion on this in the past: I would prefer all weapons, armor, and mods be available for purchase in shops. You can then get the weapons, armor, and mods you want as early as possible while you concentrate on completing missions for credits.

 

The big issue with making items and equipment as pickups during missions is that:

 1. That may be missed.

 2. You may, purposely or accidentally, skip playing the mission.

 3. The items and equipment you want may not be spread out evenly throughout the game.

 

Number 3 can be particularly frustrating, somewhat in ME2 I feel, and I think it was much more pronounced in ME3, particularly with armor and weapons. Consider in ME3:

 1. Without DLC, you are still picking up some weapons on Sanctuary (Saber, Locust) which is the last mission before the point of no return. You even pick up a new weapon on the Cerberus Headquarters mission: the Falcon. This means you are getting new weapons so late that it is not even worth using them at that point because you are already sticking with other weapons. Which means if you want to use those weapons, you need to play on NG+. That is not really feasible if you are like me and have a lot of imports.

 

Side note: the Falcon's rate of fire was nerfed in multiplayer, then that change made its way to single player in a patch. I never got to use the pre-nerf Falcon in single player. There are some guns I rarely use because you get them so late it makes little sense for me to use them.

 

 2. You are still picking up armor on Cerberus HQ (Serrice Council greaves I think, and Demulcore Overlay head piece). Serrice council armor is particularly annoying to me when I am playing a class or playstyle that requires power damage, such as the Engineer. You get one piece on Cerberus HQ as i mentioned, plus the Umbra visor on Thessia (near the end of the game without DLC), plus completing Thessia unlocks a Serrice Council armor piece in a shop. REALLY?

 

 

ME2 had somewhat of a similar issue, but it was less pronounced I think, although still somewhat annoying. Pistol AP upgrade (+50% damage to armor) required two pistol damage upgrades, but you could only get one before Horizon, while all other weapons could get two. (Assault Rifles AP upgrade before Horizon requires Zaeed DLC and taking the Renegade path, otherwise you cannot get it until after Horizon. You can get three Sniper Rifle ugrades pre-Horizon, but that is so you can get the Headshot upgrade fairly early.) 

 

Also in ME2, with Kasumi DLC, you could get Tech Cooldown upgrade pre-Horizon but Biotic Cooldown upgrade after Horizon. Note that without the Kasumi DLC, you can actually get the Biotic Cooldown upgrade much sooner than the Tech Cooldown upgrade.

 

 

So yeah. I do find searching for equipment and upgrades on missions annoying as well.

[StealthGamer92]

They should at least make upgrades, weapons, armor pieces etc. also available at shops so you can spend credits and get the armor faster or search for it in the wilderness to save money. 

Locking the weapons is even more annoying. In ME3 you are pretty much required to run a NG+ character if your build is based on Falcon. 

That's what I been saying since ME2&3. Everyone(exageration I know) always shoot's the idea to pieces though. I alway's thought the ME1 way was best, just get rid of all the redundant or un-needed items(which IS what ME2&3 did after all) bring back buying and selling, bring back some kind of in-mission loot system so you can build up money better than 2&3 allowed. Have special in-store equipment for not only the player but unique squadie gear also, and bring back either the ME1 buy License mechanic or ME3 automatic store-link they both were good.

[cap and gown]

That's what I been saying since ME2&3. Everyone(exageration I know) always shoot's the idea to pieces though. I alway's thought the ME1 way was best, just get rid of all the redundant or un-needed items(which IS what ME2&3 did after all) bring back buying and selling, bring back some kind of in-mission loot system so you can build up money better than 2&3 allowed. Have special in-store equipment for not only the player but unique squadie gear also, and bring back either the ME1 buy License mechanic or ME3 automatic store-link they both were good.

 

Overall, I find the ME3 system better. In the ME1 system, basically you just sell all your loot to earn enough to buy the Spectre weapons as soon as possible. There was "one best weapon." In ME3, the weapons have many different characteristics. Some players swear by one weapon while others can't stand it. I hate charged weapons while some players swear by them. To each their own.

 

Instead of the ME1 system, I would prefer a crafting system that builds off of the ME3 experience. In ME3 every weapons has a number of different variables that determines how it works. Damage per Shot. Rate of Fire. Clip Size. Spare Clips. Accuracy. Recoil. Weight. etc. In a crafting system the player would be rewarded research points that would allow them to improve these variables. Perhaps they would like a higher Rate of Fire. Or perhaps more damage per shot. Or perhaps less weight. Or perhaps a little of this, and a little of that. Their "research points" would allow them to spend resources on one or more of these variables making the weapon conform to what they want, not to the list of weapon types the developer can dream up.

[StealthGamer92]

Overall, I find the ME3 system better. In the ME1 system, basically you just sell all your loot to earn enough to buy the Spectre weapons as soon as possible. There was "one best weapon." In ME3, the weapons have many different characteristics. Some players swear by one weapon while others can't stand it. I hate charged weapons while some players swear by them. To each their own.

 

Instead of the ME1 system, I would prefer a crafting system that builds off of the ME3 experience. In ME3 every weapons has a number of different variables that determines how it works. Damage per Shot. Rate of Fire. Clip Size. Spare Clips. Accuracy. Recoil. Weight. etc. In a crafting system the player would be rewarded research points that would allow them to improve these variables. Perhaps they would like a higher Rate of Fire. Or perhaps more damage per shot. Or perhaps less weight. Or perhaps a little of this, and a little of that. Their "research points" would allow them to spend resources on one or more of these variables making the weapon conform to what they want, not to the list of weapon types the deIveloper can dream up.

I know my english isn't that bad, why does everybody keep overlooking the whole idea after "like ME1"! I keep saying "like" ME1, not exactly like ME1. It would have the better "unique" equipment that appeared but with stores and buy&sell like ME1, not dozens of no-different from the last guns. Inventory would need to be better in this new version too, to avoid the mess of an inventory that ME1 had.

 

Also, good idea.

[Sanunes]

I don't think I would really enjoy a crafting system in the next Mass Effect game for crafting always feels like it slows down the game and Mass Effect has always felt fast paced to me and that is why the inventory system always bugged me with Mass Effect 1 for it always felt like it was slowing down the game.

 

My idea would be to take another approach from Mass Effect 1, the achievement system.  After you find a weapon/armor piece and beat the game it would flag your account that you have found it and any future character you create would automatically have it with your next character, it just means you might not have access to it your first time playing the game.  Now if they change how weapons work from Mass Effect 3 with having different levels for them it might not work out as well, but that way it keeps the first game a little more balanced then have access to all the most powerful weapons the first time.

Modifié par Sanunes, 04 avril 2015 - 04:29 .

[Jaquio]

I think it would make more sense to have a really deep and hands-on crafting/upgrade system to your weapon.  The game that springs to mind is Blacklight Retribution.  Lots of choices about barrels, stocks, scopes, muzzles, etc.  Give the player the chance to really fine tool the weapon they want to use.  Maybe I want to sacrifice stopping power for tighter recoil and higher RoF.  I can equip certain upgrades to allow for that.  But definitely make it a trade-off.  No one omni-upgrade that is clearly better than the others.

 

If I wanted to upgrade my weapon, though, the entry level options should be something easily obtained, and you can choose to level up certain schematics, like a research tree that you spend "spare parts" or "widgets" to buy into.

 

I would like the game to go back to ME1's idea of equipping ammo instead of levelling it up like a skill.

[Dr. Rush]

Loot in ME has always been annoying. There are so many areas that the story or narrative tells the player "there is limited time and this is urgent!" but then in those same areas, loot is hidden and I have to slowly and thoroughly search through these areas before advancing. Its totally in conflict with the pace of the urgent narrative, but as a completionist, i'm not willing to skip loot. 

[Nitrocuban]

Loot in ME has always been annoying. There are so many areas that the story or narrative tells the player "there is limited time and this is urgent!" but then in those same areas, loot is hidden and I have to slowly and thoroughly search through these areas before advancing. Its totally in conflict with the pace of the urgent narrative, but as a completionist, i'm not willing to skip loot. 

Totally agree with that.

And usually it's not even a real time limit, just the game waiting for the player to press a button.

I was totally shocked when I ignored in ME3/Surkesh the "hurry up"commands as usual and suddenly got a game over screen.

[AsheraII]

I can't say I ever really cared. It's not like the game is unbeatable due to missing out on upgrade XYZ. It's really just an OCD thing, "having to get everything maxed". One could even argue, that maxing equipment makes the game too easy! If Bioware decided to remove equipment upgrades from MENext, I wouldn't mind. If Bioware decided to replace all vertical equipment upgrades with a broad range of purely horizontal upgrades (meaning every alteration would be a trade-off, none would be an explicit improvement), I'd only applaud their courage to do so.

[cap and gown]

I can't say I ever really cared. It's not like the game is unbeatable due to missing out on upgrade XYZ. It's really just an OCD thing, "having to get everything maxed". One could even argue, that maxing equipment makes the game too easy! If Bioware decided to remove equipment upgrades from MENext, I wouldn't mind. If Bioware decided to replace all vertical equipment upgrades with a broad range of purely horizontal upgrades (meaning every alteration would be a trade-off, none would be an explicit improvement), I'd only applaud their courage to do so.

 

I would be fine with that, but only if it is NOT random. Like, for instance, to use a Hurricane I find an SMG stability mod to be essential. I don't want to be put in a situation that I have a weapon I don't feel I can use unless I happened to look behind some random crate on some random planet.

[KrrKs]

Didn't we already have a thread on this?

 

Anyway:

I would say a mix of the systems. To unlock the various weapons, mods, armor, omni-tool, and biotic implants you have to purchase the license or schematics (or something like that). However, like the later games once you have something unlocked, it's available to be mass produced to your group for use. As an aside, I think there might be an interesting world building opportunity to explore: how does the MEverse deal with stuff like 3D printing and the issues related to it? As that seems closely related to the micro fabricators (or whatever they are called) available starting with ME2.

 

Some stuff will be available at the onset, some can be purchased from the company, some unique stuff is unlocked for meeting special requirements in missions (like thanks for helping us engage in corporate espionage, here's our plans for a just about to be released implant!), etc.

 

I think another feature would be to maybe add some special materials for the higher grade items (the ME2 minerals, maybe). Like maybe the biotic implants require a certain amount of Element Zero. This stuff wouldn't be available through planet scanning (because that's a boring feature) but through purchasing and maybe ensuring a few shipments go missing during missions.

 

Just a few ideas. I think a lot of it depends on the story though. Like if the character is with the military (which I hope isn't the case) why would they have to acquire their own weapons? Maybe, in that case you have to fill in some requisition orders that are tied to plot advancement or something like that.

My 2 cents:

Gear acquisition (this goes for Armour/Armour sets as well as for weapons) always has a sense of getting more powerful and achievement of some sort.

So from that pov it should be somewhat steady, over the whole game.

On the other hand I don't want a situation like in ME3, where I'd have to wait until the very end of the game before unlocking the last weapon or amour parts I wanted to use the whole game.

 

So I'd say a system were you unlock stuff in the beginning faster would be good. This could be 'loot' from missions or periodic store upgrades (I'd prefer the later), until a level of roundabout 'rare' tier* stuff is available around midgame. Whether this progression is random or fixed, I don't really care.

After that, the 'ultra rare' items could maybe only be picked up by achieving certain special unlock conditions -like ImaginaryMatter suggested.

 

Ideally though, every piece collected also has some drawbacks (when used), so you have most of the stuff you want to use past midgame.

 

*using a system similar to ME3MP.

Now I'd speed that system up so that almost all rare equipment could be available after 1/3rd of the game and the rest drops with decreasing speed until the last 5th of the game or so.

 

About randomized drops or not. I dislike doing missions just to get a certain equipment which is present only there, so from that standpoint I would actually favour randomized drops (or sequenced ones) over fixed ones.

But periodic store upgrades with a (fixed or not) sequence of new Items would be better imo.

 

Edit: for some reason I can't get rid of the added blank lines in the quotes

[Pasquale1234]

Loot in ME has always been annoying. There are so many areas that the story or narrative tells the player "there is limited time and this is urgent!" but then in those same areas, loot is hidden and I have to slowly and thoroughly search through these areas before advancing. Its totally in conflict with the pace of the urgent narrative, but as a completionist, i'm not willing to skip loot.

Yes, and if you make the mistake of completing the mission before you scan every nook & cranny for loot, you'll be cutscened outta there. Oops.

=====================

How about...

A Budget:

-- Alliance/Cerberus supplies a per mission budget you can use to purchase any base equipment. Pick it up at a hub for a discount, ordering online includes shipping fees.
-- If you want to equip a weapon on multiple characters, you need to purchase multiple copies of it.

An Onboard Weapons Tech:

-- Assign the tech to research a specific mod / upgrade / ammo type you desire. The more resources you provide (credits, salvaged or stolen data, etc.), the sooner the research will be complete and the desired improvement available. This would allow you to get the specific upgrade(s) most desired, but would also reward looting by making them available sooner, which would also mean you could get more of them per playthrough. And maybe you could earn bonus funding from weapon tech breakthroughs.

I liked the general idea behind ME2's research, but it got bogged down with locks and resource scanning. I remember blowing a big chunk of credits buying tech from merchants, only to find that they wouldn't be unlocked until much later in the game... if at all.

[goishen]

They should at least make upgrades, weapons, armor pieces etc. also available at shops so you can spend credits and get the armor faster or search for it in the wilderness to save money. 

Locking the weapons is even more annoying. In ME3 you are pretty much required to run a NG+ character if your build is based on Falcon. 

 

 

Actually in ME3 they do.   Check the spectre requisitions after a mission and you'll find most, if not all, of them.

[AlanC9]

Actually in ME3 they do.   Check the spectre requisitions after a mission and you'll find most, if not all, of them.

I'm not aware of one that doesn't.

I'm confused by why this thread is on this board rather than the DAI or ME1 boards. ME3 drops aren't random in the first place.

And ME2 isn't really on-point either. Having upgrades being based on player skill isn't random.

[cap and gown]

Actually in ME3 they do.   Check the spectre requisitions after a mission and you'll find most, if not all, of them.

 This is not true. Only the quest items show up at the Spectre terminal if you miss them.

 

 

I'm not aware of one that doesn't.

I'm confused by why this thread is on this board. ME3 drops aren't random in the first place.

 They are random in the sense that the player may or may not find them. By hiding the drops the designers have made it so some players will find them, some will not. That is random.

[Vazgen]

Actually in ME3 they do.   Check the spectre requisitions after a mission and you'll find most, if not all, of them.

I almost always clean up all shop terminals prior to Cerberus Headquarters and I almost always have not fully upgraded weapon mods. Most of the time it's sniper and SMG mods

[AlanC9]

I was totally shocked when I ignored in ME3/Surkesh the "hurry up"commands as usual and suddenly got a game over screen.

Was that independent of the "Pod Integrity" bar?

[AlanC9]

This is not true. Only the quest items show up at the Spectre terminal if you miss them.

I've seen miscellaneous armor and weapons mods there too. My impression was that they show up if you miss them on a mission. The wiki is weak on this, however. I suppose we could run a test.
 

They are random in the sense that the player may or may not find them. By hiding the drops the designers have made it so some players will find them, some will not. That is random.

I'm not sure "random" is quite the right word. I'd personally use "variable." But I see your point in that you don't get the stuff automatically. Which also takes care of my ME2 objection.

Having said that, I don't have any problem at all with equipment being variable. In fact, I prefer it.

[cap and gown]

Having said that, I don't have any problem at all with equipment being variable. In fact, I prefer it.

 

Would you prefer that your skill tree be filled out at random?

[AlanC9]

No, I would not. The way I feel about one doesn't change how I feel about the other, though.

I just ran that test, and it looks like you were right about at least some mods not showing up on the Spectre Requisitions terminal if you don't find them. Which I'm pleased with, actually. Pity the quest items still show up.

[Vazgen]

I've seen miscellaneous armor and weapons mods there too. My impression was that they show up if you miss them on a mission. The wiki is weak on this, however. I suppose we could run a test.

Armor pieces and weapons appear in shops if you miss them on a mission. Not weapon mods though. Here is the wiki page on Spectre Requisitions terminal, if you're interested.

[goishen]

I don't know what version of the game that you're playing, but for me...  Weapon mods have always shown up in the spectre requisitions.

 

EDIT :   From that page  :  *If missed during missions

 

And it lists about 6-8 mods.