123 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

The difference is that Dumbledore being gay isn't contradicted by the events in the books. What CHudmaster says about the Reapers directly contradicts what we've seen in-game. Our cycle is weaksauce compared to our predecessors, yet we kill Reapers left and right in a matter of months and at the same time we're led to believe the Reapers did not suffer a single dreadnought casualty in the 300ish years it took them to wipe out the Protheans - a race which, I must remind you, was so hyper-militarized and obiquitous that they ruled the entire galaxy, having curbstomped every single foe up until facing the Reapers?

I mean, seriously, the only reason we're having this discussion is because the CHuddernaut was so in love with the 1 Species=1 Reaper idea that he couldn't or wouldn't see how illogical and ill-fitting it actually was.

That's because the protheans couldn't even use their superior military strenght against the Reapers because they had no intact relay system to gather their fleets and army with. Being hyper-militarized isn't worth sh*t when each star system is on it's own without having any means to get reinforecements, more supplies and with severly limited communication between systems as well. Is this really that hard a concept to wrap your head around?

Also killing Reapers left and right? You are clearly exaggerating. The Reapers kick everyones combined ass every time they are on screen and have minimal casualties. And this is against people that were somewhat prepared for them and still had the ability to gather fleets/troops and communicate with each other across the whole galaxy. None of the previous cycles had any of those advantages.

[Arcian]

Our cycle has an advantage of not being roflstomped right when the Reapers arrive and having access to mass relays.

Roflstomping doesn't take 300 years. In fact, the enormous military losses on Earth, Palaven and Thessia in the initial attack of the invasion makes it evident the only ones to get roflstomped was us.

[Vazgen]

Roflstomping doesn't take 300 years. In fact, the enormous military losses on Earth, Palaven and Thessia in the initial attack of the invasion makes it evident the only ones to get roflstomped was us.

Roflstomping alone does not. Harvesting does. And the losses would've been much higher had the Reapers invaded from the Citadel as according to their plan.

[Torgette]

Well they don't call it a harvest for nothing.

[von uber]

Our cycle has an advantage of not being roflstomped right when the Reapers arrive and having access to mass relays.

 

Which it shouldn't have had.

[bunch1]

Our cycle has an advantage of not being roflstomped right when the Reapers arrive and having access to mass relays.

The relays have nothing to do with most of the reapers lost in this cycle, only the construction of the cruicible itself.  The massive Reaper losses, several capital ships, at Palaven were destroyed by the Palaven home fleet when they launched a suprise attack on the system.  Likewise the losses of process ships, transports, destoryers, and capitial ships they lose on the surface were by suicide bombers with weapons that could have eaisley been stockpiled on the surface of a militant minded species.  The destroyer on Earth is not killed with ship born weapons even, just a ground side missile, yes the reapers could screw with the guidence system but it wouldn't be that hard to simple remove that system and fire a barage ala rocket attack style.  Yes, the relays are ctitical to resistince on a galactic scale but not the reason why local forces were able to inflict individual losses on them.

 

 

That's because the protheans couldn't even use their superior military strenght against the Reapers because they had no intact relay system to gather their fleets and army with. Being hyper-militarized isn't worth sh*t when each star system is on it's own without having any means to get reinforecements, more supplies and with severly limited communication between systems as well. Is this really that hard a concept to wrap your head around?

Also killing Reapers left and right? You are clearly exaggerating. The Reapers kick everyones combined ass every time they are on screen and have minimal casualties. And this is against people that were somewhat prepared for them and still had the ability to gather fleets/troops and communicate with each other across the whole galaxy. None of the previous cycles had any of those advantages.

It's not every star system on their own though, its every star cluster at least.  Rember that the relays are not the only way to get around or communicate in the mass effect galaxy.  Their are ftl engines capable of traveling 15-20 light years a day, a galaxy 100,000 lys wide would only take 13-18 years to travel across as long as you can find fuel, helium 3 which can be skimmed from gas giants, a planet with a magntic core to discharge the drive, and the food to survive the journey which would likly be the hardest thing to issure but could be possible.  In addition the relays are only used for cross galatic communication while simple becons are used to communicate within clusters. 

 

This is all relavent because Earth and humanity are very young and have only 1 industiral world in Earth and a few dozen colonies and mining outpost and were still capable of building a massive fleet between 2149 and 2186 including 9 dreadnaughts.  Their is no reason to assume that a cluster that was colonized for hundreds of years if not thousands would be limited to only 1 industrial world and would be unable to mass produce their own massive fleet in the centruires they are left alone while the reapers are harvesting other worlds.  This is reinfoced by the fact that Javick was born very late into the war, basicly the end of it, and he described fighting in diferent systems which means that after hundreds of years of war the Protheans still had ftl ships and were capable of interplantary war while eden prime is seen to be a very large Prothean world left untoched during the war until the end.

 

Now, all these facts are irrelvent because word of god overules game facts and logic which is why we have such confusion on the matter becuase not everyone, like me, can be bothered to read a devs twitter feed so we don't all get the contradictory infomation that overrules the game itself.  But hey, if the devs want to say that the reapers are the stupidest evil empire of all time despite being gigantic computers who am I to argue.

[Arcian]

The relays have nothing to do with most of the reapers lost in this cycle, only the construction of the cruicible itself. The massive Reaper losses, several capital ships, at Palaven were destroyed by the Palaven home fleet when they launched a suprise attack on the system. Likewise the losses of process ships, transports, destoryers, and capitial ships they lose on the surface were by suicide bombers with weapons that could have eaisley been stockpiled on the surface of a militant minded species. The destroyer on Earth is not killed with ship born weapons even, just a ground side missile, yes the reapers could screw with the guidence system but it wouldn't be that hard to simple remove that system and fire a barage ala rocket attack style. Yes, the relays are ctitical to resistince on a galactic scale but not the reason why local forces were able to inflict individual losses on them.


It's not every star system on their own though, its every star cluster at least. Rember that the relays are not the only way to get around or communicate in the mass effect galaxy. Their are ftl engines capable of traveling 15-20 light years a day, a galaxy 100,000 lys wide would only take 13-18 years to travel across as long as you can find fuel, helium 3 which can be skimmed from gas giants, a planet with a magntic core to discharge the drive, and the food to survive the journey which would likly be the hardest thing to issure but could be possible. In addition the relays are only used for cross galatic communication while simple becons are used to communicate within clusters.

This is all relavent because Earth and humanity are very young and have only 1 industiral world in Earth and a few dozen colonies and mining outpost and were still capable of building a massive fleet between 2149 and 2186 including 9 dreadnaughts. Their is no reason to assume that a cluster that was colonized for hundreds of years if not thousands would be limited to only 1 industrial world and would be unable to mass produce their own massive fleet in the centruires they are left alone while the reapers are harvesting other worlds. This is reinfoced by the fact that Javick was born very late into the war, basicly the end of it, and he described fighting in diferent systems which means that after hundreds of years of war the Protheans still had ftl ships and were capable of interplantary war while eden prime is seen to be a very large Prothean world left untoched during the war until the end.

Now, all these facts are irrelvent because word of god overules game facts and logic which is why we have such confusion on the matter becuase not everyone, like me, can be bothered to read a devs twitter feed so we don't all get the contradictory infomation that overrules the game itself. But hey, if the devs want to say that the reapers are the stupidest evil empire of all time despite being gigantic computers who am I to argue.

Death of the Author.

The moment a work is published, the author's intentions stops being relevant and we can only judge the work based on its own merits.

In other words, the Word of God has no real power.

[bunch1]

Death of the Author.

The moment a work is published, the author's intentions stops being relevant and we can only judge the work based on its own merits.

In other words, the Word of God has no real power.

I agree personaly but the one thing I've found on these forums is that if you don't agree with what the devs say after relese then your somehow stupid for not agree with the dev's who own the rights even if they couldn't be bothered to put it in game proper or any of the dlc that came out after inital relese, instead puting in info that runs counter to their statments.  It ultimitly dosen't effect how I view the game or the reapers, in my mind their simply are not tens of thousands of reapers because that would mean their is no reason for indoctranation or leaving the citidel alone at the start of the war or why they only ever are attacking 2 major worlds at a 1 time despite not using a thousand ships in either case.  But, if in ME4 they have a codex that say the crucible shut down 100,000 reapers across the galaxy and all the ileagle salvage of these ships is causeing some new problem then it will be cannon and I'll accept it.  Until then though I see it as a bit of lore and history that got left on the cutting room floor because they couldn't justify the game if they did use it that the devs persoanly use as their own head cannon but still isnt' apart of the series.

 

Ultimitly it comes down to logic vs word of god.  Game supports less reapers, devs say more reapers, it's a personal choice as to which you go with.  Though going with less requires less suppison of disbelief.

[Vazgen]

The relays have nothing to do with most of the reapers lost in this cycle, only the construction of the cruicible itself.  The massive Reaper losses, several capital ships, at Palaven were destroyed by the Palaven home fleet when they launched a suprise attack on the system.  Likewise the losses of process ships, transports, destoryers, and capitial ships they lose on the surface were by suicide bombers with weapons that could have eaisley been stockpiled on the surface of a militant minded species.  The destroyer on Earth is not killed with ship born weapons even, just a ground side missile, yes the reapers could screw with the guidence system but it wouldn't be that hard to simple remove that system and fire a barage ala rocket attack style.  Yes, the relays are ctitical to resistince on a galactic scale but not the reason why local forces were able to inflict individual losses on them.

The reason turians are able to form any kind of organized resistance is because they knew about the attack on humans and batarians. That knowledge worked badly for them - The Fall of Taetrus, but they figured things out fast. Had they not known about the Reapers beforehand, their fleets would not have been able to organize.

The Miracle at Palaven was made possible due to the assistance of the krogan. Without the relays that assistance would not have been available. 

Link

[bunch1]

The reason turians are able to form any kind of organized resistance is because they knew about the attack on humans and batarians. That knowledge worked badly for them - The Fall of Taetrus, but they figured things out fast. Had they not known about the Reapers beforehand, their fleets would not have been able to organize.

The Miracle at Palaven was made possible due to the assistance of the krogan. Without the relays that assistance would not have been available. 

Link

Humanity accepted the possiblility of a Reaper attack, the Turians did not belive and thus were not prepared for the reapers attack.  They did not know what was attacking and likly assumed it to be geth over reapers.  Ships that could have reinforced Palaven were used to continue that assult and were wasted which meant that the inital defese of Palaven was conducted by a much smaller portion of the Turian fleet since they wouldn't have had the time to call back the entire fleet before the reapers arived and they still downed several reaper capital ships.  There is also no reason to belive that the Prothean Empire did not know the reapers were attacking them 10, 50, 100, 300 years into the harvest and the fact that the reapers left alone parts of the empire for so long likly means that the fleets and armies stationd within those clusters were also left unharmed and could be reinforced by local industrial worlds, colonies, and mining outpost.  As I've said before if Earth can build 9 dreadnaught and an unknow number of carriers in 30-40 years their is no reason that a long settled cluster couldn't build an even larger fleet to go with the ships left over by the previous govt. in a couple of hundred years when they know for a fact the reapers are going to come for them and kill them all.  In fact it's more likly that they would devote their entire economy to simply building as many ships as they could in a futile attempt to stave off the reapers.

 

As for the Krogan suport you are right in that they brought the bombs to Palaven, likely from Tuchanka.  My point was that there is no reason to assume that a advanced and warlike race, ala the Protheans, couldn't have already had these kinds of weapons stockpiled on major worlds.  They came from sowhere and it's just as likly that if the Reapers began harvisting there then the bombs would have been used in the exact same way to destroy a large number of reapers.  To say it's only posible to plant a bomb is to bring it through a relay and to a another world is false.  This is one confirmed method of destorying large numbers of reapers that requires absolutly no outside help or ships so long as their is a large number of bombs available on the ground you can litteraly just walk them right into the reapers unprotected interiors as they harvest you.

[Vazgen]

Humanity accepted the possiblility of a Reaper attack, the Turians did not belive and thus were not prepared for the reapers attack.  They did not know what was attacking and likly assumed it to be geth over reapers.  Ships that could have reinforced Palaven were used to continue that assult and were wasted which meant that the inital defese of Palaven was conducted by a much smaller portion of the Turian fleet since they wouldn't have had the time to call back the entire fleet before the reapers arived and they still downed several reaper capital ships.  There is also no reason to belive that the Prothean Empire did not know the reapers were attacking them 10, 50, 100, 300 years into the harvest and the fact that the reapers left alone parts of the empire for so long likly means that the fleets and armies stationd within those clusters were also left unharmed and could be reinforced by local industrial worlds, colonies, and mining outpost.  As I've said before if Earth can build 9 dreadnaught and an unknow number of carriers in 30-40 years their is no reason that a long settled cluster couldn't build an even larger fleet to go with the ships left over by the previous govt. in a couple of hundred years when they know for a fact the reapers are going to come for them and kill them all.  In fact it's more likly that they would devote their entire economy to simply building as many ships as they could in a futile attempt to stave off the reapers.

 

As for the Krogan suport you are right in that they brought the bombs to Palaven, likely from Tuchanka.  My point was that there is no reason to assume that a advanced and warlike race, ala the Protheans, couldn't have already had these kinds of weapons stockpiled on major worlds.  They came from sowhere and it's just as likly that if the Reapers began harvisting there then the bombs would have been used in the exact same way to destroy a large number of reapers.  To say it's only posible to plant a bomb is to bring it through a relay and to a another world is false.  This is one confirmed method of destorying large numbers of reapers that requires absolutly no outside help or ships so long as their is a large number of bombs available on the ground you can litteraly just walk them right into the reapers unprotected interiors as they harvest you.

The point I'm making is that despite what they thought about the enemy, Turians knew that the Batarians and humans were attacked. It's from the codex:

By the time Taetrus went dark, the turians had already learned that the batarians and humans were under attack. The Hierarchy responded with what they believed was overwhelming force, only to walk into a trap.

Not knowing about the nature and capabilities of the enemy would've slowed the reaction time and they would not have been able to fully mobilize their fleets.

 

As for the Prothean Empire, Javik mentions that cutting the subjects from the centralized government had thrown them into disarray. Their battle plans of sacrificing worlds to slow the Reapers down also didn't help.

 

That said, I don't think the Reapers never had casualties. IMO, when the Reaper is created, a backup of the knowledge of the preserved race is created and stored in the Citadel. That way they won't care much about the casualties. And we had actually seen a dead Reaper from early cycles - the derelict Reaper in ME2.

[bunch1]

As for the Prothean Empire, Javik mentions that cutting the subjects from the centralized government had thrown them into disarray. Their battle plans of sacrificing worlds to slow the Reapers down also didn't help.

This is also my point though.  Even without relays the Protheans still know the reapers are coming and still have some form of orginized force of which Javick serves even if these fleets and armies only fight on the cluster level.  And while the Protheans may have been thrown into chaos by the loss of the citidel it's a strech to assume every species ever in the galaxy was unable to reform a chain of command on a smaller level.  I find it hard to belive that every previous specious just fell into complete disaray and couldn't figure it out even after hundreds of years while knowing they were at war.  The codex itself tells us that with very little info and a few fleets the Turians devised a stratagy to destroy several reaper captial ships, the protheans and all who came before likly had hundred of encouters to learn the Reaper weak points so to assume none capable of that feat which the Turians pulled on the fly strikes me as wrong.  I know, word of god says so just accept that, but that dosen't mean it makes sense.

[Iakus]

This is also my point though.  Even without relays the Protheans still know the reapers are coming and still have some form of orginized force of which Javick serves even if these fleets and armies only fight on the cluster level.  And while the Protheans may have been thrown into chaos by the loss of the citidel it's a strech to assume every species ever in the galaxy was unable to reform a chain of command on a smaller level.  I find it hard to belive that every previous specious just fell into complete disaray and couldn't figure it out even after hundreds of years while knowing they were at war.  The codex itself tells us that with very little info and a few fleets the Turians devised a stratagy to destroy several reaper captial ships, the protheans and all who came before likly had hundred of encouters to learn the Reaper weak points so to assume none capable of that feat which the Turians pulled on the fly strikes me as wrong.  I know, word of god says so just accept that, but that dosen't mean it makes sense.

Without the relays, the Protheans systems were operating individually or in small groups, unable to communicate or coordinate effectively.  The Reapers were still united and operating as a cohesive whole, able to reinforce various fronts as needed.  Thus the Reapers were able to stomp each individual group by bringing overwhelming force to bear.

[themikefest]

Had the Protheans been able to use the relays like we can in our cycle, I believe the Protheans would've built the crucible and used it

[bunch1]

Without the relays, the Protheans systems were operating individually or in small groups, unable to communicate or coordinate effectively.  The Reapers were still united and operating as a cohesive whole, able to reinforce various fronts as needed.  Thus the Reapers were able to stomp each individual group by bringing overwhelming force to bear.

The systems are not alone, the clusters are at most and we don't know how many colonies were in each cluster, or how old, populatied, and developed they were.  A single cluster could have more sentients then the entire systems alliance considering humanity only has 1 heavaly populated world and yet were still able to build a sizable fleet in a very short amount of time.  Through with ftl it is posible to travel from 1 cluster to another in a few months or years which with a war spanning 300 years is not that long. 

 

I took Soverigns words about darkening the sky of every world to mean that the reapers would all show up at one time to harvest a world then move on the next, like you say overwhelming each system at a time, not that they could darken the sky of every world at the same time which is why I had no problem with the comparativly few reapers portrayed in ME3, but word of god does not agree.  My points were only to show that it is posible for local forces and ground forces to kill reapers without relying on the combined might of the whole organic fleet and that logicaly it dosen't make sense to write off every other species in history as being to dumb to figure it out.  Reaper victory in space dosen't mean they can't be suicide bombed on the planet as we see on Palaven or why half a dozen dreadnaught can't ftl right into their formation and blast them before being shreded by the reapers.  But again, I admit that the devs don't agree and support the massive reaper fleet idea and so I must accept the reapers are stupid and incompatent and use my own headcannon when I play.

[Iakus]

Had the Protheans been able to use the relays like we can in our cycle, I believe the Protheans would've built the crucible and used it

Well,at least one group did try to build the Crucible.  But the Citadel being the first to fall to the Reapers kinda fracked things for them.

[themikefest]

Well,at least one group did try to build the Crucible.  But the Citadel being the first to fall to the Reapers kinda fracked things for them.

Had the relays been operational for the Protheans, it would've made it easier to get resources to the Crucible and it would've been built quicker. 

 

I doubt our cycle would've been able to build the crucible without using the relays to transport resources to the project. Cerberus would eventually find the location and sabotage the project

[bunch1]

I doubt our cycle would've been able to build the crucible without using the relays to transport resources to the project. Cerberus would eventually find the location and sabotage the project

Without the relay the odds of Cerberus being able to find the crucible let alone sabatoge it is very remote.  Odds are they wouldn't have more then a few agents in the cluster and no way to recive orders.

[themikefest]

Without the relay the odds of Cerberus being able to find the crucible let alone sabatoge it is very remote.  Odds are they wouldn't have more then a few agents in the cluster and no way to recive orders.

I'm sure the Protheans said the same thing

 

The odds would be greater since it would take a much longer time to build the crucible and a good chance for a Cerberus agent to sneak onto a ship that is headed to the Crucbile with suppllies

[Iakus]

Had the relays been operational for the Protheans, it would've made it easier to get resources to the Crucible and it would've been built quicker. 

 

I doubt our cycle would've been able to build the crucible without using the relays to transport resources to the project. Cerberus would eventually find the location and sabotage the project

True.

 

The Reapers really were idiots this cycle.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

[citation needed]

Assuming this is true, Hudson shouldn't have made the Protheans 100 times stronger than our cycle. He should also have written the Reapers to attack the Citadel first, not last, since that would have saved them numerous casualties.

The whole "Because I said so"-type storytelling is acceptable when the storyteller is 8 years old and making things up on the fly, but not in an expansive universe developed by hundreds of people where internal logic and consistency is paramount.

I've always given Super MAC crap for ruining the franchise, but I'm starting to think his only real offense was Cerberus and his part in the ending. It seems the rest is entirely Casey's fault.

 

After careful analysis of the problems in ME3 and hearing Mac's side of things, I have to concur. However, he was directed to use the framework of the ending originally envisioned by Drew but change it to be about synthetics vs organics, and I'm convinced that Hudson thought that making it like the child Shepard saw would be a "cool twist". Mac wanted more dialogue like we had in the EC, and even an extended version of the dialogue with Anderson in that scene, but Casey wanted to keep things "high level." It wasn't budget. And we ended up with a bunch of crap that didn't make any sense. I've said it in another post, there were way too many variables being carried into ME3 from the previous games that it was amazing we got anything resembling a coherent story. Cerberus served the purpose of giving us an antagonist, but it was implemented poorly.

[SwobyJ]

After careful analysis of the problems in ME3 and hearing Mac's side of things, I have to concur. However, he was directed to use the framework of the ending originally envisioned by Drew but change it to be about synthetics vs organics, and I'm convinced that Hudson thought that making it like the child Shepard saw would be a "cool twist". Mac wanted more dialogue like we had in the EC, and even an extended version of the dialogue with Anderson in that scene, but Casey wanted to keep things "high level." It wasn't budget. And we ended up with a bunch of crap that didn't make any sense. I've said it in another post, there were way too many variables being carried into ME3 from the previous games that it was amazing we got anything resembling a coherent story. Cerberus served the purpose of giving us an antagonist, but it was implemented poorly.

 

Should have been Harby, just more dimension to him.

 

TIM big too but I'd have honestly preferred a more transhuman badass TIM than Kai Leng anything.

 

TIM as either a boss fight or extended convo (depending on past and present choices) and end of game finalboss+finallevel inside Harbinger.

 

Yay!

[Matoro]

Roflstomping doesn't take 300 years. In fact, the enormous military losses on Earth, Palaven and Thessia in the initial attack of the invasion makes it evident the only ones to get roflstomped was us.

 

It would have probably taken few hundred years for Shepard's cycle to be completely harvested, too. The initial war - destroying most resistance - would take only few months, maybe years. But how about harvesting every single human, turian, asari, salarian etc? There was successful resistance movements in Earth and Palaven even when Reapers had full capability there. It would take hundreds of years for Reapers to harvest even 99% of harvestable species, and it seems the Reapers were very thorough. 

 

The Prothean cycle probably didn't go any different - their military might was broken right in the start, and then it was only isolated pockets of resistance. Armies are easy to defeat, but hunting every civilian of a particular species? Hard.