Aller au contenu

Photo

The 17 million to 1 no-brainer


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
129 réponses à ce sujet

#26
God

God
  • Members
  • 2 432 messages

Your choice is purely subjective. The numbers are clear - both sides have the same contribution to the war effort. Quarians can actually contribute more if appropriate choices are made.

I understand it quite well. What you don't understand (or pretend not to) is that the geth are already upgraded prior to disabling the signal. The difference is that they are under Reaper control. "This unit still carries the remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code"

 

If you're going to play the numbers game with war assets, you're prepared to admit that 2 N7 operatives are greater assets than an entire fleet of alliance ships. Would you say that's reasonable?

 

I don't believe you do understand it. Look at Legion when he's uploading the Reaper upgrades to all the Geth. Legion's using the code to advance the Geth to a state that hasn't been achieved before by the Geth. It's a lot different than the Reaper control code used by the Reapers to keep the Geth in line. This one actually makes the Geth into a fully developed independent (and networked) intelligence. It's discussed in the game. 

 

A control signal from the Reapers =/= the upgrade that Legion disseminates to all the Geth. So no, the Geth are not capable of being hacked any longer.



#27
KrrKs

KrrKs
  • Members
  • 863 messages

Your choice is purely subjective. The numbers are clear - both sides have the same contribution to the war effort. Geth can actually contribute more if appropriate choices are made.

Every choice is purely subjective. This one even more than others.

The only difference is:

1.) Does one value AI similar to natural Intelligences, or not

2.) Does one trust in suited civilians in outdated ships who can't participate in proper ground combat to contribute to the war? Or rather in full fledged AI warships and Killerbots, which may be prone to be hacked by the enemy.

 

Edit: I should probably proof read before hitting 'post'

 

Edit2: War assets are a bad measurement for anything. How much do these Dextro- chocolate-bars from the Leviathan DLC contribute? 50 points?


Modifié par KrrKs, 06 avril 2015 - 04:41 .


#28
cap and gown

cap and gown
  • Members
  • 4 812 messages

 

Edit2: War assets are a bad measurement for anything. How much do these Dextro- chocolate-bars from the Leviathan DLC contribute? 50 points?

 

More Turian Hershey Bars, FTW!



#29
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

I'll be honest and state that I really don't see much of a use for the Quarians, nor do I see a utility for them that can't be met by the Geth.

 

The Geth have as much logistical capability as the Quarians, and they are significantly less vulnerable (and flying in much more stable craft). 

 

Post-upgrade, you really have no way to say whether the Geth are incapable or not of independent and innovative capability. 

You have your right to an opinion, but it isn't supported by the lore or else the quarians wouldn't even be a factor in the war planning in the first place. The original purpose given by Hackett for going beyond the Veil in the first place has nothing to do with needing the geth.

They don't, at least not in terms of intergrating with the forces you already have. Geth ships have no life support, for one, so are completely unusable on a large scale by other forces for anything except cargo transport, which they probably aren't designed for anyway. When one of the major stated logistical problems is actually getting the shipless krogan to the battlefronts, the quarians have a definite edge in the lore right there.

I don't, but neither do you. I am merely making an extrapolation based on what the two "Species" (I use this term loosely and for the sake of brevity, because software programs aren't a species, but that isn't what we're arguing), have proven capable of by themselves. We don't know the nature of the Reaper technologies given to the geth or exactly what they do other than an upgrade in processing power, nor do we know if the quarians couldn't benefit similarly from other Reaper technlogies. It is all supposition

 

 

You're not highlighting any particular advantage the Quarians have over the Geth. You're stating a characteristic that the Quarians have and implying that the Geth do not have it, but I'm failing to see the basis for where this is the case.

 

I think you're also mis-stating the value of the Geth. They're a lot more than 'meat for the grinder', especially when compared to the extremely fragile nature of the Quarians in comparison (both in space and planetary combat). You have mechanized, intelligent platforms capable of deploying in hostile environments with maximum efficiency that not even the Krogan or Turians can jump into. Said intelligent platforms are capable of self-repair, and are rather durable. They're also capable of processing information and communicating with each other at light-speed, and capable of coordinating on a level that no organic can match.

 

As for culture, I do indeed throw aside the Quarian culture for the Geth. Because, to repeat sentiments, I question the nature and veracity of your statements about the Quarians achievements, especially in the face of the boon that is possible from what the Geth can offer post-upgrade. And you're failing to account the Quarians own insulated culture, compared to the Geth's rather practical approach to isolationism: They don't believe that anyone will accept them, and they do have history and experience to back them up.

because we know the quarians have these characteristics, whereas we have no ideas as to the capabilities of the Reaper upgraded geth. It's shaky either way, but I'm making conclusions based on the (admittedly limited) evidence presented, circumstantial and otherwise. The fact that a mere 17 million quarians could in any way challenge billions of geth more than proves that they have advantages in terms of innovation and efficient resource utilization, and do not lack for utility.

Similarly, I think you are mis-stating the value of the quarians and overstating that of the geth. On an individual platform basis, from what we've seen the geth seem to be woefully incompetent in combat and reliant on raw numbers rather than any tactical or technologial advantages (our small squad kills thousands of them over the course of the game, and other engagements in which we witness them are usually hundreds or thousands of platforms vs a small number of organics ala Haestrom). I'm not questioning their ability to marshal enough material to be highly useful, but it is in the same way that the USSR was useful in the Second World War. If you have the krogan, you already have an essentially limitless pool of shock troops to perform the same function. The fleets are roughly even, with the quarian ones being more varied and technologically advanced while the geth fleet is more suited to sustained conventional combat. What then do the geth offer that no one else can? I won't restate what the quarians offer, because one could reread my last post, but suffice it to say I think their relative strengths are more useful considering the asymmetric nature of the conflict and other forces at your disposal, and their contribution via the only system we have is objectively higher than the geth. The numerical size of one's army and resources isn't the only means of measuring a civilization, or the Soviet Union would have easily won the Cold War. That's a limited viewpoint. Do you think the contributions of Cerberus to the war effort are useless because the Alliance has billions more meatbags and thousands more ships to throw at the Reapers, who we know can't be beaten by any conventional means anyway?

Again, I am arguing what is and has been shown to be true and extrapolating a conclusion I think reasonable, you are arguing what is possible based on something that we cannot verify due to limited extrapolation on the nature of the upgraded geth, apart from some vauge "alive" Pinocchio nonsense. Also, how is the geth's isolationism more practical than that of the quarians? The former calculated that they would not be accepted and thus chose isolationism based on prevailing organic attitudes towards synthetic "lifeforms". The latter was ejected from the galactic community against their own wishes, and continues to face disdain and racism 300 years later, stymieing any hopes of intergration. What else are they supposed to do than isolate themselves? Both have logical reasons for their decisions.

 

 

As for the Geth's capabilities compared to the response of the Quarians during the opening stage of the war, it's explicitly stated that the Quarians have a specialized EMP device that is capable of blocking and disrupting Geth programming.

 

To counter your Finland/WW3 statement, it would be more akin to the Fins going into each country and releasing a very potent, very virulent airborne disease that utterly debilitates and destroys the entire population of each country. And you're leaving out the element of surprise, where the Geth are focusing their resources elsewhere (like preparing their fleets and armies for war against the Reapers).

 

I think you're also aggrandizing a theory for the future of the Quarians and the Geth. 

Again, the quarians brought a technology that they themselves created and the geth could not counter or adapt to in sufficient time. It's no different than Israel winning so many wars against superior foes via applying their limited resources in a more efficient manner, or the British putting down the Bambatha Rebellion through superior technology alone despite massive numerical disadvantage.

If those societies could not use their vastly superior resources counter said disease, it is either the Finns being technologically innovative or the rest of the world being incompetent in chemcial/biological warfare. Technological superiority is an element of warfare, and I would argue the most important one everything else considered. It is no different than bringing previously unknown gunpowder or atomic weaponry to other conflicts. Element of surprise should only go so far when you are outnumbered more than 1000:1. The fact that the geth could not adapt by themselves despite utterly massive material advantages points to an inflexible society that is extremely lacking in adaptation or innovation. The fact that the quarians could develop such things lends evidence to the argument that they would be more useful in finding unconventional solutions to combat the Reapers.

Bluntly put, but not incorrect. This is all theorycrafting and I haven't claimed otherwise. I'm stating my opinion, as are you. The fact is that the relative strengths of the two are objectively equal according to the system of measurement used. I'm not using the potential of Reaper technology, because I don't know how much the quarians could be improved by harnessing it, but I do know other organics are capable of such.



#30
Mordokai

Mordokai
  • Members
  • 2 035 messages

Except they don't. The two make all but equal contributions to the war effort, albiet in different manners (brawn vs brains, so to speak). As for choosing based on sentiments....

^that's pretty much a textbook definition of it. You genocide 17 million people because of the 6 or so you know, you don't like 5 of them. Subjectively, I hate every geth that isn't Legion, because the other however many billion of them ("Heretics" and otherwise) have been trying to kill me for 3 games straight for seemingly no reason and have made allies with the enemy on multiple occasions (though arguably, this is a far more logical than sentimental conclusion) but I recognize this as an opinion.

Note that I'm not criticizing, because making the choices that you want based on a variety of factors both logical and sentimental is the whole point of playing an RPG, but you can't criticize your opponents for being overly sentimental while doing the exact same thing.

 

Believe it or not, the way I played this particular Shepard, those hundred or so points that geth contributed to the war effort over quarians was enough for this Shepard to survive. Sure, she didn't knew that, but I found it pretty funny and ironic.

 

And yeah, geth have been trying to kill me for three games. Funny as this is going to sound... I don't hold that against them. Every geth that has been on the business end of my gun had a clearly define relationship - they were my enemy. And I don't hold it against my enemies when they try to kill me. Sure, I try to return the favour post haste, but hey... no hard feelings. When supposed friends start shooting at me... yeah, that I do take issues with.

 

And yeah... guess I am a bit of hypocrite on this one :) Considering everything else in my life, I can live with that.


  • Quarian Master Race aime ceci

#31
New Kid

New Kid
  • Members
  • 950 messages

'Quarian Master Race' needs to chill out. I make one line of comment about the Geth and apparently I can be compared to a child?

 

We are talking about a video game, I feel perfectly justified to believe the Geth are a more valid choice than the Quarians.



#32
Vazgen

Vazgen
  • Members
  • 4 967 messages

If you're going to play the numbers game with war assets, you're prepared to admit that 2 N7 operatives are greater assets than an entire fleet of alliance ships. Would you say that's reasonable?

 

I don't believe you do understand it. Look at Legion when he's uploading the Reaper upgrades to all the Geth. Legion's using the code to advance the Geth to a state that hasn't been achieved before by the Geth. It's a lot different than the Reaper control code used by the Reapers to keep the Geth in line. This one actually makes the Geth into a fully developed independent (and networked) intelligence. It's discussed in the game. 

 

A control signal from the Reapers =/= the upgrade that Legion disseminates to all the Geth. So no, the Geth are not capable of being hacked any longer.

Two N7 operatives  greater assets that an entire fleet? Care to bring an example?

I know that certain individuals are worth 25 war assets which is quite a noticeable number compared to, say, 100 war assets of the rachni. On the other hand, those individuals in key positions can do more damage than rachni workers. The key here is the way those operatives are used. Quarians used as ground troops in place of krogan can worth 10 war assets, that only means that they are used not effectively. 

 

What you say is headcanon. I give you exact line of the same Legion - "This unit still carries the remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code". Another line from Tali "That would make the geth as smart as when the Reaper was controlling them". So yes, the only difference between a geth prior to disabling the signal and after that is, well, the removal of the said signal. And yes, they are hackable. 



#33
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 521 messages
Given the choice it's peace followed by scrapping them via destroy (meta choice).
Without the choice then the quarians live - given that conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitable in the MEU, scrapping them right there and then is the sensible option.
Regardless, I see the geth vi as being the real face of the geth.
  • Vazgen aime ceci

#34
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

'Quarian Master Race' needs to chill out. I make one line of comment about the Geth and apparently I can be compared to a child?

 

We are talking about a video game, I feel perfectly justified to believe the Geth are a more valid choice than the Quarians.

I thought your point of assigning an "injured party" to a complex conflict that cannot be objectively rendered into such one sided terms without gross oversimplification was stupid, and expressed my opinion as such, as is the point of a goddamn forum. You have a right to your opinions, but you don't have a right to be immune to scrutiny from others who don't share them when you voice them publicly.

"Who started it" isn't the only factor in assigning causality nor moral justification (which is the standpoint from which you argued) in conflict situations, and I ridiculed this simplistic viewpoint with the common stereotype of children often using the same flawed moral reasoning as an excuse for their actions.

Besides, do you really get irate at random people over the internet. If so, you are the one who needs to "chill out".



#35
God

God
  • Members
  • 2 432 messages

Two N7 operatives  greater assets that an entire fleet? Care to bring an example?

I know that certain individuals are worth 25 war assets which is quite a noticeable number compared to, say, 100 war assets of the rachni. On the other hand, those individuals in key positions can do more damage than rachni workers. The key here is the way those operatives are used. Quarians used as ground troops in place of krogan can worth 10 war assets, that only means that they are used not effectively. 

 

What you say is headcanon. I give you exact line of the same Legion - "This unit still carries the remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code". Another line from Tali "That would make the geth as smart as when the Reaper was controlling them". So yes, the only difference between a geth prior to disabling the signal and after that is, well, the removal of the said signal. And yes, they are hackable. 

 

N7 assets are worth 75 assets apiece. That's 150 assets. The Alliance Sixth Fleet is worth 90 Assets. 10 N7 operatives are worth the entire Geth or Quarian armada. 

 

Do you really think 10 N7 operatives can match or outperform an entire species? Using assets as a gauge isn't very prudent.

 

What I say is not headcanon. Shepard and Legion both confirm at separate points that the Geth are not capable of being hacked after the Reaper upgrade. After Legion dies. This is mentioned in game, and it is not repeated. The Geth are not hacked at any point afterward. So no, there's a pretty big difference between what the Reaper signal that Legion is in the heart of, and the Reaper code that legion uploads to the Geth.

 

You're point is incorrect.



#36
Vazgen

Vazgen
  • Members
  • 4 967 messages

N7 assets are worth 75 assets apiece. That's 150 assets. The Alliance Sixth Fleet is worth 90 Assets. 10 N7 operatives are worth the entire Geth or Quarian armada. 

 

Do you really think 10 N7 operatives can match or outperform an entire species? Using assets as a gauge isn't very prudent.

 

What I say is not headcanon. Shepard and Legion both confirm at separate points that the Geth are not capable of being hacked after the Reaper upgrade. After Legion dies. This is mentioned in game, and it is not repeated. The Geth are not hacked at any point afterward. So no, there's a pretty big difference between what the Reaper signal that Legion is in the heart of, and the Reaper code that legion uploads to the Geth.

 

You're point is incorrect.

If species are used ineffectively than yes. Assets are not clear indicators, true, but in this particular case they show the usefulness of both groups with the quarians having heavy focus on fleets and geth having focus on ground troops. I prefer fleets

 

Can you bring quotes? Shepard's quotes do not count here, unless they are presented via autodialogue. The reason I say this is because in dialogue wheel situations, different Shepards will say different things. Example, Shepard can present radically different views on the sentience of the geth depending on a Paragon or Renegade option. Something out of the player's control would be nice. 



#37
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

Believe it or not, the way I played this particular Shepard, those hundred or so points that geth contributed to the war effort over quarians was enough for this Shepard to survive. Sure, she didn't knew that, but I found it pretty funny and ironic.

If you'd made the proper choices, that wouldn't have been necessary because the quarians are objectively worth more ;) . Of course, if you'd done things properly you could have had both.

I've the additional positive caveat that I can use the geth as the enemy of my enemy up to the point when they themselves become the greater threat, and eliminate them both in one go. 

 

When supposed friends start shooting at me... yeah, that I do take issues with.

Interesting. For me, if my supposed allies are going to betray me I'd rather they do it blatantly rather than through constant lying and subterfuge such as Legion participates in. It does this no matter how much trust you express in it in previous interactions.

Of course, I had no problem with Gerrel putting the boot in to that enemy Dreadnought at the soonest oppourtunity, because I told him to. For all the issues you take with supposed friends starting to shoot you, its peculiar that you are so soon to side with the machines after the quarians are nice enough to use their fleet to blow up a Reaper for you and remove the major military threat that is the Reaper allied geth forces.

Hell, your character's career is built upon the actions of one quarian whom the story cannot advance past the first hour of the first game without, no matter what you do. I can choose airlock the geth squadmate at the first oppourtunity and the only thing that changes about the narrative is that it then becomes much more black and white from both a moral and pragmatic standpoint in relation to where the machines stand.

 

And yeah... guess I am a bit of hypocrite on this one :)

That much is clear, but then again moral consistency is overrated and "hypocrite" is the favourite insult of hypocrites attempting to take moral high ground. Ultimately, you made a non canon choice anyway, because I can still play quarians in the multiplayer regardless :P .


  • Mordokai aime ceci

#38
themikefest

themikefest
  • Members
  • 21 610 messages

The geth are crap without the upgrade

 

Yes they are strong after the upgrade and most likely defeat any organic species since they don't require sleep, healthcare and other things organics rely on. Its just they need an upgrade from the reapers for that to happen



#39
Mordokai

Mordokai
  • Members
  • 2 035 messages

If you'd made the proper choices, that wouldn't have been necessary because the quarians are objectively worth more ;) . Of course, if you'd done things properly you could have had both.

 

Ah, but what's the fun in that? :P I mean, if I lived my life the right way, I'd be a successful married man with two children right now, not the deadbeat alcoholic engaging in internet arguments with strangers. And since the games simulate the real life...

 

Actually, I think I kinda undermined my own argument in there...

 

 

Interesting. For me, if my supposed allies are going to betray me I'd rather they do it blatantly rather than through constant lying and subterfuge such as Legion participates in. It does this no matter how much trust you express in it in previous interactions.

Of course, I had no problem with Gerrel putting the boot in to that enemy Dreadnought at the soonest oppourtunity, because I told him to. For all the issues you take with supposed friends starting to shoot you, its peculiar that you are so soon to side with the machines after the quarians are nice enough to use their fleet to blow up a Reaper for you and remove the major military threat that is the Reaper allied geth forces.

Hell, your character's career is built upon the actions of one quarian whom the story cannot advance past the first hour of the first game without, no matter what you do. I can choose airlock the geth squadmate at the first oppourtunity and the only thing that changes about the narrative is that it then becomes much more black and white from both a moral and pragmatic standpoint in relation to where the machines stand.

 

Since I actually kinda respect you by now, lets just agree to disagree on this one :) Saves both of us a lot of pointless arguing and we can both go back to doing more important things.

 

Whatever that may be...

 

Ultimately, you made a non canon choice anyway, because I can still play quarians in the multiplayer regardless :P .

 

Unless you're playing a volus nutpuncher :P Or an asari.

 

You really should do that more often, btw. That match was one of the most fun ones we ever played. And by now, we've played a lot of them :)


  • Quarian Master Race aime ceci

#40
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

Metagaming: Once you've gone through it and seen the moral choice at the end, IMO it is best to let the quarians finish off the geth regardless of which geth is there: Legion or the Geth VI. It eliminates that dilemma - "You can destroy all synthetic life if you want. Even you are partly synthetic." - well in the game there is only one AI in existence and that is on the Normandy. You don't have to think about destroying an entire race. Besides, if you have the Omega DLC, Aria provides more than enough additional war assets.

 

And if you were playing multi-player, you may have had 100% galactic readiness - "Allied forces are holding steady and winning in key areas." That should have made conventional victory possible. :lol:


  • Quarian Master Race aime ceci

#41
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

Due to MP character promotions, I've close to 5000 war assets from them on one account and can actually beat the Reapers to a pulp before I even leave Earth to acquire any fleets.

The opening cinematic should have just been a bunch of MP characters dropping from the sky and shooting, punching and exploding every Reaper in sight to death, complete with krogan laughter, turian platitudes, and quarians fretting about soup, enemy spinach and bananas, while Shep & Co have a beer and watch. Anderson can be there to iterate the fact that he was born in London or something.


  • sH0tgUn jUliA, justafan, cap and gown et 3 autres aiment ceci

#42
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

Before any DLC I had EMS well over 9000! It was around 11,000. Yeah, Admiral Hackett, we just kicked the reaper's ass in that operation over the weekend. My N7 Fury was doing great things. We should have a conventional victory!!!

 

But alas... still the crucible... still the same crappy ending... and... the... geth... died....



#43
Daemul

Daemul
  • Members
  • 1 428 messages

tumblr_m1mo1wzFiu1qbubzqo1_400.gif

 

I chose the Geth simply because they had a far larger amount of units they could contribute to the war effort and their fleets weren't made of tissue paper, whether or not anyone had individuality had absolutely nothing to do with it, it was a simple common sense choice.

 

The very fact that this nonsense discussion even exists shows why the average person has no business being in the position, and will never be in the position, to make such a decision. Irrational and emotionally guided reasoning like "Bu-bu-but, the Quarians are individuals!" cannot be allowed to influence important decisions when the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake. If 17 million "individuals"(I'm still struggling to see what this has to do with anything), many of whom cannot contribute in any significant way, have to die, than so be it.

 

inb4youkilledQuarianchildrenz



#44
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

Moral concerns have nothing to do with it. Your premise that the geth are more useful is objectively false. The quarians are worth as much or even more to the war effort. You are wrong.

 

Indeed, I see moral concerns about the software's right to life and the quarians supposedly being at fault for the conflict with the geth as victims used way more often as a justification for saving the software


  • sH0tgUn jUliA aime ceci

#45
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

Good... good.... I remember when this used to erupt into a 300 page thread.


  • AlanC9, KrrKs, justafan et 3 autres aiment ceci

#46
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 521 messages

Good... good.... I remember when this used to erupt into a 300 page thread.

 

TVE0AIy.jpg

"Join me.. and together we can rule Rannoch as Father and Son..."


  • sH0tgUn jUliA et KrrKs aiment ceci

#47
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 666 messages

What you say is headcanon. I give you exact line of the same Legion - "This unit still carries the remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code". Another line from Tali "That would make the geth as smart as when the Reaper was controlling them". So yes, the only difference between a geth prior to disabling the signal and after that is, well, the removal of the said signal. And yes, they are hackable.


They're hackable, I guess, but so are organics. Indoctrination still works. Dominate still exists.

#48
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 666 messages

Moral concerns have nothing to do with it. Your premise that the geth are more useful is objectively false. The quarians are worth as much or even more to the war effort. You are wrong.


Aren't relative fleet strengths wholly dependent on ME2 choices?

#49
Vazgen

Vazgen
  • Members
  • 4 967 messages

They're hackable, I guess, but so are organics. Indoctrination still works. Dominate still exists.

Indoctrination requires 1) time, 2) close proximity to Reaper technology (which won't be the case in space battles in which the Quarians should participate most of the time).

Leviathan domination requires those orbs and I doubt those three Leviathans will be able to control all the quarians. 



#50
justafan

justafan
  • Members
  • 2 407 messages

Good... good.... I remember when this used to erupt into a 300 page thread.

Spoiler

 

It has been far too long since the BSN has gotten into one of those.  Ah the good old days of name calling, vulgarity, insane conspiracy theories, and accusations of genocide fetish.  We just need to find a way to revive some of the more fanatical Geth supporters and then let the party begin.


  • Quarian Master Race aime ceci