129 réponses à ce sujet

[Quarian Master Race]

Thread needs moar butthurt. I'm pretty amazed I haven't been called a luddite yet.

[cap and gown]

Thread needs moar butthurt. I'm pretty amazed I haven't been called a luddite yet.

 

It needs more Turian chocolate!

[Mrs_Stick]

I don't wann get into this argument. Never goes anywhere but I will eat some popcorn and Turian chocolate while I read the post. Recently I did an ME3 game where I never activated Legion and got the Geth VI honestly resources aside I cannot trust a group that decieds to side with the galaxies enemy simple because they feared being wipped out that is not good enough for me to trust the Geth so yeah I will side with Quarians when needed.

 

 

OMG my view point has changed since I first arrived to the BSN o crap...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Thread needs moar butthurt. I'm pretty amazed I haven't been called a Luddite yet.

 

 

Luddite!

 

How could you look into that flashlight with those flippy floppy thingies acting all cute and cuddly and sentence them to death in the end after they helped you? Especially after PW went out of his way to show us what racists the Quarians were and how the Geth were the real victims¹. You beast! You monster!

 

PS - Luddite is a proper noun.

 

¹ even though they slaughtered well over 99% of the Quarian people

[von uber]

Geth VI is a much better character than legion ( in me3 anyway) - and sheps insults are much more amusing towards it.

[God]

If species are used ineffectively than yes. Assets are not clear indicators, true, but in this particular case they show the usefulness of both groups with the quarians having heavy focus on fleets and geth having focus on ground troops. I prefer fleets

 

Can you bring quotes? Shepard's quotes do not count here, unless they are presented via autodialogue. The reason I say this is because in dialogue wheel situations, different Shepards will say different things. Example, Shepard can present radically different views on the sentience of the geth depending on a Paragon or Renegade option. Something out of the player's control would be nice. 

 

I'm sorry, but unless you are outright ordering your species into a black hole, or if the entire species is made up of realistic tree people, there is no possible way that 10 soldiers (sans Spartan II's and Shepard himself) is worth an entire species. 

 

Assets aren't indicators of anything at all, period. It's an arbitrary number that is randomly assigned and put into the game to count for a score. I don't think they accurately measure anything. Otherwise, you have the Normandy outperforming entire fleets on its own.

 

Diana Allers dialogue after the Rannoch mission with the Geth upgraded. As well, Legion explicitly states, when directly asked by Shepard, that the Geth will be immune from any further hacking attempts by the Reapers.

[Vazgen]

I'm sorry, but unless you are outright ordering your species into a black hole, or if the entire species is made up of realistic tree people, there is no possible way that 10 soldiers (sans Spartan II's and Shepard himself) is worth an entire species. 

 

Assets aren't indicators of anything at all, period. It's an arbitrary number that is randomly assigned and put into the game to count for a score. I don't think they accurately measure anything. Otherwise, you have the Normandy outperforming entire fleets on its own.

 

Diana Allers dialogue after the Rannoch mission with the Geth upgraded. As well, Legion explicitly states, when directly asked by Shepard, that the Geth will be immune from any further hacking attempts by the Reapers.

You mentioned Shepard. He is a clear example on how a single N7 operative can be worth more to the war effort than the entire galactic fleet. But let's not go there, he's a protagonist and all that. If I'm not mistaken, to get those assets from multiplayer you have to promote a character who has reached level 20. 10 level 20 multiplayer characters have killed hordes of enemies, recovered a lot of intelligence and technology. Their contribution to the war effort can indeed be more than an entire fleet who fights the Reaper ships and only manages to kill 2-3 of them. 

I disagree with your assertion that war assets are arbitrary numbers. Developer intent is clear when viewing those numbers, especially in geth/quarian situation when both groups have almost the same numbers not to give one side a clear advantage over another.

The militaristic viewpoint of the decision boils down to this - do you want more ships or more ground troops? First option favors the quarians, second - the geth.

 

We were considering the circumstances of making a choice, no? Diana Allers dialogue after Rannoch is not something Shepard knows when making a decision. It's metagaming. But even that metagaming does not state that the geth cannot be hacked. Here is that conversation:

Diana Allers: "But you're going to take an army of synthetics to fight Reapers with untold hacking abilities. What's keeping the Reapers from reprogramming the geth, like they did before?"

Paragon Shepard: "The geth are extremely intelligent and they put incredible thought into solving this problem. They are not going to turn again. I'd bet my life on it"

Renegade Shepard: "A lot of people died so this army could join us. And I'm not in the mood to have those deaths questioned"

 

As you can see, Renegade Shepard dodges the question, while Paragon Shepard expresses confidence in the geth ability to counteract that problem (the line also indicates that the problem exists) which is not really reassuring, at least for me.

 

So we only have Legion's words for the geth not being able to be hacked when upgraded (when does it say that?). Considering that 1.) there is evidence of the contrary as brought in my previous posts and 2.) that Legion lied to Shepard at least twice - I won't trust its word on this when making a decision. 

 

Furthermore, the geth allied with the Reapers to save themselves from extinction. Where are the guarantees that they won't do that again? Can Shepard trust the geth to sacrifice themselves to save the galaxy? 

[God]

You have your right to an opinion, but it isn't supported by the lore or else the quarians wouldn't even be a factor in the war planning in the first place. The original purpose given by Hackett for going beyond the Veil in the first place has nothing to do with needing the geth.

 

They don't, at least not in terms of intergrating with the forces you already have. Geth ships have no life support, for one, so are completely unusable on a large scale by other forces for anything except cargo transport, which they probably aren't designed for anyway. When one of the major stated logistical problems is actually getting the shipless krogan to the battlefronts, the quarians have a definite edge in the lore right there.

I don't, but neither do you. I am merely making an extrapolation based on what the two "Species" (I use this term loosely and for the sake of brevity, because software programs aren't a species, but that isn't what we're arguing), have proven capable of by themselves. We don't know the nature of the Reaper technologies given to the geth or exactly what they do other than an upgrade in processing power, nor do we know if the quarians couldn't benefit similarly from other Reaper technlogies. It is all supposition

 

 

 

 

I would imagine that the reason the Geth are excluded is because we have no real indication that they're going to even participate at all. Meanwhile, the alliance wants to know why the Quarians went dark. To be frank, the Quarians weren't a part of the primary war summit between the key races. So they really weren't a part of the planning phase either. 

 

The Geth don't necessarily need to be used as fleet transportation so much as complementing and supporting Turian fleet efforts. As for logistical capability, yes, the Geth are indeed capable of such, and likely greater considering that ships are designed with multiple purposes in mind. I'm not trying to argue that the Geth would be better as force projection vehicles, but as far as power projection goes, they do indeed trump the Quarians.

 

We have more information of what the Geth do post-upgrade here. They may not be a species, by the biological means of the term, but that is a long way from describing them as 'non-life'. Otherwise you're correct in the lack of quantifiable information. But I wasn't trying to make that argument either.

 

 

because we know the quarians have these characteristics, whereas we have no ideas as to the capabilities of the Reaper upgraded geth. It's shaky either way, but I'm making conclusions based on the (admittedly limited) evidence presented, circumstantial and otherwise. The fact that a mere 17 million quarians could in any way challenge billions of geth more than proves that they have advantages in terms of innovation and efficient resource utilization, and do not lack for utility.

Similarly, I think you are mis-stating the value of the quarians and overstating that of the geth. On an individual platform basis, from what we've seen the geth seem to be woefully incompetent in combat and reliant on raw numbers rather than any tactical or technologial advantages (our small squad kills thousands of them over the course of the game, and other engagements in which we witness them are usually hundreds or thousands of platforms vs a small number of organics ala Haestrom). I'm not questioning their ability to marshal enough material to be highly useful, but it is in the same way that the USSR was useful in the Second World War. If you have the krogan, you already have an essentially limitless pool of shock troops to perform the same function. The fleets are roughly even, with the quarian ones being more varied and technologically advanced while the geth fleet is more suited to sustained conventional combat. What then do the geth offer that no one else can? I won't restate what the quarians offer, because one could reread my last post, but suffice it to say I think their relative strengths are more useful considering the asymmetric nature of the conflict and other forces at your disposal, and their contribution via the only system we have is objectively higher than the geth. The numerical size of one's army and resources isn't the only means of measuring a civilization, or the Soviet Union would have easily won the Cold War. That's a limited viewpoint. Do you think the contributions of Cerberus to the war effort are useless because the Alliance has billions more meatbags and thousands more ships to throw at the Reapers, who we know can't be beaten by any conventional means anyway?

Again, I am arguing what is and has been shown to be true and extrapolating a conclusion I think reasonable, you are arguing what is possible based on something that we cannot verify due to limited extrapolation on the nature of the upgraded geth, apart from some vauge "alive" Pinocchio nonsense. Also, how is the geth's isolationism more practical than that of the quarians? The former calculated that they would not be accepted and thus chose isolationism based on prevailing organic attitudes towards synthetic "lifeforms". The latter was ejected from the galactic community against their own wishes, and continues to face disdain and racism 300 years later, stymieing any hopes of intergration. What else are they supposed to do than isolate themselves? Both have logical reasons for their decisions.

 

 

 

And I disagree with that assessment, as shown by the pro-Geth ending.This is where the two way street of our argument is coming in. I feel we're arguing past each other at this point. I'm not doubting your view that the Quarians are capable of innovation, efficiency by rationing of what resources they deploy, or even base utility. I'm doubting your view that the Geth are not capable of the same or greater, especially post-upgrade, where the Geth are capable of overcoming and depleting what the Quarians can throw at them with ease.

 

On an individual platform basis, we know why a single Geth platform is not as well utilized as a larger force. I disagree that the Geth rely on brute force and strength in numbers. The networking capability for them makes them a much more potent force when there are more of them in a single area. Also, I'm not making the suggestion that the Geth are like the USSR in the second world war. I'm saying they're much more capable than the shock strikes with numbers, and with the upgraded package delivered to them (which seems to make each individual program analogous to a single conscious entity, the potency of the Geth's capabilities will likely increase on a likely exponential level. And yes, I do think the Geth would benefit from this upgrade from the Reapers better than the Quarians could. It's more or less tailored by the Reapers specifically for the Geth.

 

Plus, there is the reminder of story and gameplay segregation. The Geth are considered one of the most advanced fighting forces in the galaxy, and the Quarians acknowledge that sans highly trained special forces (which still got slaughtered in a prolonged fight on Haestrom and killed within minutes on a hijacked cruiser), their actual forces have a lot less of a chance against the Geth. And this is shown by the alliance as well. What does it say about Shepard that he's able to overcome the Geth? The Quarians clearly aren't in a combat environment (in which case they do successfully resort to alternative tactics)

 

I'm saying that the Geth on the ground are not just shock troops here. That's what you're getting at, and that's where I think we're talking past each other. They are more than shock troops. As far as ground forces go, I'd say the Geth are analogous to the modern U.S. Military. The game states that they have the best equipped and most advanced planetary combat force. Better equipped than the Turians, and likely much more controlled and reliable than the Krogan. 

 

On the fleet part, I disagree entirely with the assertion that the Quarians are more advanced, and even more varied. Maybe on an individual ship-to-ship basis, where each ship performs a different function, but the Geth equip their vessels to fulfill a multitude of missions. Even their cargo vessels are designed with combat economics in mind. On Quarian advancement, I'll be honest and say that I don't believe the Quarians have an advancement over the Salarians, let alone the Geth. What advancement are you proposing that a force that is shunned across the galaxy and has little access to reliable resources that need to go into maintaining their existing ships (many of which are particularly fragile and ancient) has on a large scale to trump the Geth? One code scrambler that is already being countered after less than 3 weeks of fighting? As well, the Geth, as I said, are a force that has communicative and coordination abilities that no organic could possibly match. A machine force crafted for precision to the nth decimal with instantaneous communication and utilizing computer speeds to create and organize strategies based on resources for an entire fleet in moments is going to be something that you don't want to lose. And to counter what you said, they aren't being thrown at the Reapers as shock forces again. They're specifically mentioned as conducting interdiction strike missions on Reaper forces post-Rannoch. 

 

I'm going to ignore the attack on my intelligence here on the physical size of a combat force. Mean it or not, I am insulted for reasons of an armchair general telling me that I don't know my military application (which, I guarantee you, is resoundingly false). But to get back on track, not only do the Geth have size, which you are acknowledging, but they have the capability with that size. This is where I'm going to call a bluff of yours. You're saying that all the Geth have is size, which is simply not true. The Geth have the capacity to use asymmetric warfare, and they have the capacity to do it better than the Quarians much, much more limited size. I'm going to re-state my view while making a concession: I may indeed be mis-stating the value of the Quarians, but you are doing the same here for the Geth. It's turning into a wanking war at this point. But yes, I question your judgement where the Quarians have the objectively higher utility than the Geth, especially an upgraded, fully sentient and developed Geth. I think you're have to stretch a lot to come up with a conclusion that a few hundred or thousand ships, and at most a few hundred thousand Quarians in the military will be equal to the entire force of the Geth considering what advantages in, yes, numbers, but also physical makeup, communicative ability, processing capability, technological capability, and will to survive. As I'll cover, you're making a broad (and, in my understanding, incorrect) assumption about the Geth based off of an event which is given little context and covering. It's a bit unfair to come to a broad conclusion over a specific incident. And it's a fallacy.

 

Again, the quarians brought a technology that they themselves created and the geth could not counter or adapt to in sufficient time. It's no different than Israel winning so many wars against superior foes via applying their limited resources in a more efficient manner, or the British putting down the Bambatha Rebellion through superior technology alone despite massive numerical disadvantage.

If those societies could not use their vastly superior resources counter said disease, it is either the Finns being technologically innovative or the rest of the world being incompetent in chemcial/biological warfare. Technological superiority is an element of warfare, and I would argue the most important one everything else considered. It is no different than bringing previously unknown gunpowder or atomic weaponry to other conflicts. Element of surprise should only go so far when you are outnumbered more than 1000:1. The fact that the geth could not adapt by themselves despite utterly massive material advantages points to an inflexible society that is extremely lacking in adaptation or innovation. The fact that the quarians could develop such things lends evidence to the argument that they would be more useful in finding unconventional solutions to combat the Reapers.

Bluntly put, but not incorrect. This is all theorycrafting and I haven't claimed otherwise. I'm stating my opinion, as are you. The fact is that the relative strengths of the two are objectively equal according to the system of measurement used. I'm not using the potential of Reaper technology, because I don't know how much the quarians could be improved by harnessing it, but I do know other organics are capable of such.

 

 

 

I disagree. Have you ever worked in a CBRN unit? I have. These things spread very fast, and are extremely virulent. They have tools that can kill you in days, long before you can work out a cure in response. You're presupposing that the Finns, by virtue of using a plague that they developed in the interior, are technologically innovative on a greater level than anyone else. What is the logical model to show that one area of advancement (and surprise deployment that very much can level a 1000:1 playing field) means greater capability for advancement than their target? Where are you getting this conclusion? And where are you getting the conclusion that the other party must be incompetent? You're leaving little room for error in an ambiguous premise. The same works for the Quarians. Especially within the amount of time given. less than 3 weeks isn't really an adequate time to create an effective countermeasure to a weapon you know nothing about since all targets of said weapon have been wiped out. There's no intelligence to be had. You're extrapolating from one instance of Quarian ingenuity over Geth systems (that were quickly bolstered by Reaper signals which the Quarians had no defense against) that they're more capable than the Geth (or others) in this. As I've said, your argument is abductive, and it's built on shaky logic with (as you admit) limited evidence in support of a specific premise rather than the broad idea of what you have going. You're trying to show that one instance of the Geth being caught off guard proves that they were an inflexible and unbending society. You'd need a lot more evidence to say that this was the case, especially in the area of time. 17 days of strikes with a weapon that disables Geth systems entirely to the point where communication is limited in comprehension to what the Quarians can do to them is not something that would constitute the label of 'inflexible and extremely lacking in innovation or development'. This is some pretty heavy card stacking in the Quarians favor. It's an inastute logical development that comes to a conclusion that the Geth aren't capable, which I vehemently disagree with.

 

I can't say it's not incorrect, but I can say that it is what you're calling it: theorycrafting. It's neither correct nor incorrect, as the information within is notional and hypothetical. And you've flipped around here: you're telling me at one point that the Quarians are the objectively more effective force over the 'rigid, conventional, and inflexible' Geth, and are now stating that they have an objectively equal measure. And, you're going to have to account for what the Reaper upgrades do for the Geth. You're leaving that out. We know that at the least, the Geth are now fully sentient and developed on the same neurological level as any organic race. We know that with that combined synthetic nature, they are now going to be capable of feats of communication and coordination unheard of in organic races. 

 

I'm willing to concede that we aren't going to change the others mind at this point however.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There is one other reason that the quarians need to win this struggle especially if you have the Geth VI.... It is heroism. Heroism is important. Geth are anti-heroism. But the Quarians are only 17 million and most of them will be left on the planet, while their ships provide logistical support for the fleet. Which is a more heroic ending to this arc? Watching your friend commit suicide because of your choice? Or helping your friend get her homeworld back?

[BraveVesperia]

The decision always makes me sad, because whether or not you'd argue the geth are a 'people', they're an interesting part of the ME universe, and I don't want them to disappear from it. Though, considering I don't like Synthesis, that seems destined to happen. Unless ControlShep can 'release control' of them? Who knows. I still don't get why Destroy kills all the AI anyway. 

 

Unless the Catalyst is a lying little plop, which is entirely possible.

[God]

There is one other reason that the quarians need to win this struggle especially if you have the Geth VI.... It is heroism. Heroism is important. Geth are anti-heroism. But the Quarians are only 17 million and most of them will be left on the planet, while their ships provide logistical support for the fleet. Which is a more heroic ending to this arc? Watching your friend commit suicide because of your choice? Or helping your friend get her homeworld back?

 

I don't even understand this at all. Mind clarifying it? 

 

Heroism. What's that got to do with people left on Rannoch? 

[Iakus]

The no-brainer should have been convincing Legion they didn't need the code to become "real boys".  They withdraw, the quarians get their homeworld back, and maybe this time the geth won't build their superstructure on someone's front lawn.

[JasonShepard]

 

The real question is (ME3 Ending SPOILERS): if the geth are doomed to either die or be controlled at the end, you really aren't saving them, just delaying their demise.

  

The decision always makes me sad, because whether or not you'd argue the geth are a 'people', they're an interesting part of the ME universe, and I don't want them to disappear from it. Though, considering I don't like Synthesis, that seems destined to happen. Unless ControlShep can 'release control' of them? Who knows. I still don't get why Destroy kills all the AI anyway. 

 

Where does this idea that the Shepard-AI controls the Geth come from? As far as I can tell, the game only makes reference to controlling the Reapers. (And I *always* pick Control, so I'm fairly familiar with the dialogue.)

 

Is it just because Destroy isn't selective, therefore Control must not be either? Because there's no reason to think that the two should function the same way.

[von uber]

Except you don't need to defend the flotilla as the quarian population is in Rannoch. So you basically get a massive logistics fleet which is a different asset to the toaster squad.

[Massa FX]

I usually save both the Geth and The Quarians... only to destroy the Geth later because... reasons beyond my contol

[Kynare]

I feel like some people need to read up on the geth a bit more. At the very least, to remind themselves of their history.

 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

 

The geth didn't wage war. Only 5% of the geth chose to become heretics and they were largely unsupported by the rest of the consensus. They maintained the quarian home world in preparation for their "inevitable return". They're isolationists—the only thing that went wrong is when everything started trying to kill them. In such a case, self-preservation takes precedence, like it does for any sentient species who wants to live. Surprised Legion even offered taking down the shields and guns on the geth dreadnought.

 

So I don't think destroying the geth should be seen as some kind of heroic victory. Unless you really hate robots. If my computer gained sentience, I think we'd be real good friends. We already hang out every single day.

[von uber]

So why didn't the geth drop an email to the quarians and say 'come home, have your planet back we don't need it' ?

[KrrKs]

They're isolationists—the only thing that went wrong is when everything started trying to kill them

There were never any survivors of expeditions into Geth territory, so their 'isolationism' seems a bit more aggressive than the usual version.

Or maybe these expeditions screwed up and opened fire the moment Geth appeared.

 

So why didn't the geth drop an email to the quarians and say 'come home, have your planet back we don't need it' ?

Imagine Han'Gerrel's reaction upon receiving such a mail. The Admirals in former times would likely not consider such an offer (or make it public), so who can say there never was one?

[God]

So why didn't the geth drop an email to the quarians and say 'come home, have your planet back we don't need it' ?

 

When you put it in terms like that, just about anything will sound stupid.

 

Alas, I do not believe this is the case.

[Vazgen]

There were never any survivors of expeditions into Geth territory, so their 'isolationism' seems a bit more aggressive than the usual version.

Or maybe these expeditions screwed up and opened fire the moment Geth appeared.

Yes.

From the codex

Despite fears of geth, prospectors do occasionally mount salvage ventures inside the Veil; one ended in tragedy. Using technomental domination, the geth drew the team into the Veil before aiming them back as husks at the organic society that produced them.

[RatThing]

It was always a no brainer to me.

 

a ) I'm not sacrificing living beings for tin cans, no matter how many they are. (that really is enough reason for me)

b ) Geth sided with the Reapers on multiple occasions. I wouldn't trust them anymore.

c ) Does anyone actually understand how the Reaper code works and what it will do to the Geth? How do you actually know they will fight for you if you save them? It all seems like a shot in the dark to me.

d ) If you even take into consideration that the catalyst is right about the organic-synthetic conflict, saving the Geth over the Quarians is a stupidity. You'd be saving your own killer. At this point Shepard could know about the inevitability of organic-synthetic conflicts if you did the Leviathan quests before Rannoch or talked to Javik, but he can not know that there is a solution for the problem (synthesis).

 

 

It is a no brainer. The game is forced to use feels to get you to turn off your brain long enough to even consider software programs to be comparable in value to sapient, sentient beings.

 

 

That sums up pretty well how the situation was handled. In the end the choice is nothing but a sympathy vote and the writer did their best to make the Quarians look as unsympathetic as possible (except the ones who favoured peace).

[KaiserShep]

Without the geth allying with the reapers, the Quarians would've defeated them. 

 

Pretty much. The geth's greatest strength before the upgrade was pretty much their greatest weakness in the end, and the quarians finally figured out how to exploit it.

 

I think one issue I have with the whole code upgrade decision is that you have to assume the tactical advantage, but are never told. Legion frames this around the effect it has on their individual programs, but their being "alive" doesn't mean anything against their usefulness in the war or really put the matter of their vulnerability to the reapers to rest. Like, why would I assume that the reapers can't hack their own code?

[Kynare]

So why didn't the geth drop an email to the quarians and say 'come home, have your planet back we don't need it' ?

I'm not sure. They could have been trying to reach a consensus on that themselves. After all, the quarians did try to exterminate them, and 300 years later, they still showed no interest in a diplomatic resolution until Tali came along. Some geth respected them as their creators, and most probably didn't see the logic in restoring power and stability to them. Regardless, they continued to maintain their planets in the meantime, and I could see them deciding to aggressively chase out/dispatch visitors to ensure the planets weren't colonized by other races in the middle of the conflict.

Note that the fact that we're considering why the geth didn't choose to do anything other than simply exterminate the problem (quarians) when they had multiple chances implies that the geth are a sentient whole who can make mistakes, evolve and adapt just as any organic species, and that they are also capable of acknowledging a potential error and seeking compromise. Maybe they're not alive as we perceive it, but that's better than what a lot of beings can say about themselves. ‎À la the quarians. That potential alone makes a pretty decent asset to me. That's just why I, personally, would have supported the geth if I didn't have the persuade option.

[Iakus]

 

The geth didn't wage war. Only 5% of the geth chose to become heretics and they were largely unsupported by the rest of the consensus. They maintained the quarian home world in preparation for their "inevitable return". They're isolationists—the only thing that went wrong is when everything started trying to kill them. In such a case, self-preservation takes precedence, like it does for any sentient species who wants to live. Surprised Legion even offered taking down the shields and guns on the geth dreadnought.

 

What went wrong is the geth built their superstructure in the quarians' home system.  hat was bound to end in disaster.  They could have built it anywhere, in any system, even one without inhabitable planets.  Heck they might have built it outside any system in deep space.  The quarians could have gotten to Rannoch and found it completely deserted:  bloodless victory.