129 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

It's quite simple really. Does Legion appear at the Party? Well, there you go then.

[AlanC9]

What hasn't entered the discussion yet is whether or not this is a choice, at least in the non-video game, meta-knowledge sense. In the story the only difference between Peace and Geth victory when Shepard uploads the code is that he tells the Quarians not to attack. It's kind of the Quarian admiralty that chooses to fly in, for what the game seems to be hammering over and over again, irrational reasons. Should I feel bad that I went for the supposedly peaceful option, only to have the Quarians rush to their own death?

Well, Shepard does make different speeches when he passes the P/R checks. But that's just a quirk of the way ME implements persuasion.

[AlanC9]

You're not benefiting humanity by choosing the Geth... because they are Not Geth anymore. They are part Reaper tech....which has abused humans and other organics. You're enabling a legacy of abuse this way. And ultimately if you carry through with Synthesis, it's definitely not benefiting humanity. It benefits the notion of all life itself...don't get me wrong.... but it's on a completely different evolutionary paradigm.

Legion himself says this in ME2. How adopting Reaper tech closes one to possibilities. It's just as true for organics as it is synthetics. Life will go on, but just stagnate. It won't make the same kind of strides or struggle as it does now.

I never saw how this made any kind of sense, myself. Tech is tech, whoever developed it. If Reaper tech makes you ignore the possibilities of other techs, that's because the Reaper tech really is superior and is solving your problems. It doesn't prevent you from developing the other techs later.

[JasonShepard]

You're not benefiting humanity by choosing the Geth... because they are Not Geth anymore. They are part Reaper tech....which has abused humans and other organics. You're enabling a legacy of abuse this way. And ultimately if you carry through with Synthesis, it's definitely not benefiting humanity. It benefits the notion of all life itself...don't get me wrong.... but it's on a completely different evolutionary paradigm.

 

Legion himself says this in ME2. How adopting Reaper tech closes one to possibilities. It's just as true for organics as it is synthetics. Life will go on, but just stagnate. It won't make the same kind of strides or struggle as it does now.

 

Yes - because utilising Reaper tech has never worked out for humanity in the past.

 

...Except for the Thanix cannon. Or EDI. Or the various Reaper & Collector hand-held weapons that Shepard can use. Or the Mass Relays. Or... (You get the point. The simple fact that the Geth are using Reaper tech doesn't mean they can't help humanity.)

 

If the Legion tells me that the Geth can safely use the Reaper upgrades, I trust him. By that point in the plot, he'd enabled the killing of a Reaper and the releasing of the Geth from Reaper control, so I'd say he's proven that trust. 

 

Sure, in ME2 the Geth argue that accepting the technology of another blinds you to the alternatives. But they also argue that every sapient being has the right to self-determination. In this case, it's their choice - their 'self-determination' - and they have the knowledge necessary to make that choice. If the Geth have chosen that using Reaper tech is the best course of action in this scenario, then fine. They understand Reaper code better than the rest of us ever will.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Maybe so, but the way it's presented: the reaper code that hacked the geth will allow them to become true AI and become individuals is just too much to buy into. It's like that Geth Fighter mission where you don't get to see quarians without their suits. I know that's because Bioware was too lazy to use face models for the Quarians so they had Legion/GethVI make up some lame excuse for it. The same lame reasoning applies with the reaper code. Once again it's the presentation. It's requiring a total leap of faith without any study.

 

So yes, the Geth understand the reaper code better than any of us. They've been controlled by it enough.

[RatThing]

Yes - because utilising Reaper tech has never worked out for humanity in the past.

 

...Except for the Thanix cannon. Or EDI. Or the various Reaper & Collector hand-held weapons that Shepard can use. Or the Mass Relays. Or... (You get the point. The simple fact that the Geth are using Reaper tech doesn't mean they can't help humanity.)

 

If the Legion tells me that the Geth can safely use the Reaper upgrades, I trust him. By that point in the plot, he'd enabled the killing of a Reaper and the releasing of the Geth from Reaper control, so I'd say he's proven that trust. 

 

Sure, in ME2 the Geth argue that accepting the technology of another blinds you to the alternatives. But they also argue that every sapient being has the right to self-determination. In this case, it's their choice - their 'self-determination' - and they have the knowledge necessary to make that choice. If the Geth have chosen that using Reaper tech is the best course of action in this scenario, then fine. They understand Reaper code better than the rest of us ever will.

 

Reaper tech is tech no one really understands. The Citadel was Reaper Tech and the council races used it without knowing what it is or what the Keepers are. It almost destroyed them just like it destroyed countless of races before them. The Mass Relays are capable of destroying whole solar systems. If there's a problem with them, there's no one who can fix it because no one knows enough about them. Also, the Relays caused the Rachni war. Edi is an unshackled AI just like the upgraded Geth. There's something in the lore about the inevitability of organic-synthetic conflicts. Even though I don't really buy it, AI's have proven to be very dangerous technology. With a good dose of common sense there are enough reasons to be cautious with the Reaper upgrades and not blindly follow the Robot here. 

[78stonewobble]

You're not benefiting humanity by choosing the Geth... because they are Not Geth anymore. They are part Reaper tech....which has abused humans and other organics. You're enabling a legacy of abuse this way. And ultimately if you carry through with Synthesis, it's definitely not benefiting humanity. It benefits the notion of all life itself...don't get me wrong.... but it's on a completely different evolutionary paradigm.

 

Legion himself says this in ME2. How adopting Reaper tech closes one to possibilities. It's just as true for organics as it is synthetics. Life will go on, but just stagnate. It won't make the same kind of strides or struggle as it does now.

 

The "requirements" were a current example of what you would have to ask of yourself, before you start asking others to live up to them. 

 

In the mass effect universe there could be other requirements needed. 

 

PS: Tho, I agree with your points. I choose peace, because I don't think either party deserves extinction over what happened in their past and that supposedly reaperparts are "ok" enough to continue living with, for the geth. Later on tho, I have to sacrifice the geth. The geth who, volunteered to fight, btw. 

[TheN7Penguin]

All Geth must die other than Legion. Is a fact.

[God]

All Geth must die other than Legion. Is a fact.

 

About as fact as the sun being an iceball.

[78stonewobble]

About as fact as the sun being an iceball.

 

Njyah, I allways say "hypothetical god", "imaginary god", "delusions of god" or "god" (airquotes), but that's more of a fact than: "All geth must die, other than legion." Still, the last can be a subjective truth or fact. 

[Sylvan_Moon]

I had peace between the Quarians and the Geth, but given a choice, it IS a no-brainer. Even if the Geth were 18 billion individuals. To me, even extremely hi-tech AI bordering on free will, will still never be worth sentient life.

 

I didn't even need to think about Legion's personal quest in ME2. It was destroy the Geth, immediately rather than re-program them. I'd rather not take the risk that they'd be corrupted by Reaper tech again and kill more organics. And in ME3, turned out to be the correct decision.

[TheN7Penguin]

At least the Geth have better voice recognition than Apple or Google.

[Kynare]

I don't really see how "corruption" is a valid reason to destroy the geth. You do realize that, come ME3, the following organic races are indoctrinated, harvested and used primarily as the Reaper's ground force:

 

- Humans (Husks)

- Turians (Marauders)

- Krogan (Brutes)

- Batarians (Cannibals)

- Asari (Banshees)

- Rachni (Ravagers, Swarmers)

 

And how many of them have been able to recover from indoctrination/control like the geth?

 

Also taking into account that the Reapers could have easily destroyed the geth if they hadn't accepted their offer, and intended to do so, hence the Reaper virus within their consensus. The geth were literally backed into a corner (and although it wasn't mentioned in-game, they likely would've recognized this and saw it as their best/only chance) and they were played by the Reapers just like every other organic race out there.

 

So really, I see no evidence why the geth should be held to a different standard from organic races. If they're sentient and they function with thousands of individual programs who feel differently from each other, then they're going to evolve the same way an organic race does—through trial and error.

 

Not disputing anyone's decision to destroy all of the geth. I'm just saying; it's not a no-brainer.

[Quarian Master Race]

I don't really see how "corruption" is a valid reason to destroy the geth. You do realize that, come ME3, the following organic races are indoctrinated, harvested and used primarily as the Reaper's ground force:

 

- Humans (Husks)

- Turians (Marauders)

- Krogan (Brutes)

- Batarians (Cannibals)

- Asari (Banshees)

- Rachni (Ravagers, Swarmers)

 

And how many of them have been able to recover from indoctrination/control like the geth?

 

Also taking into account that the Reapers could have easily destroyed the geth if they hadn't accepted their offer, and intended to do so, hence the Reaper virus within their consensus. The geth were literally backed into a corner (and although it wasn't mentioned in-game, they likely would've recognized this and saw it as their best/only chance) and they were played by the Reapers just like every other organic race out there.

 

So really, I see no evidence why the geth should be held to a different standard from organic races. If they're sentient and they function with thousands of individual programs who feel differently from each other, then they're going to evolve the same way an organic race does—through trial and error.

 

Not disputing anyone's decision to destroy all of the geth. I'm just saying; it's not a no-brainer.

None of those races were corrupted in their entirety for one, and none of them willingly. All the geth willingly joined the Reapers as allies in the extermination of all advanced organic life in the galaxy, except for perhaps Legion (and we aren't even sure of that considering its runtimes carry Reaper code upgrades like all others).

Self preservation isn't a valid excuse until it is shown why all other possible options (the most obvious one being a retreat from all contested quarian systems such as Rannoch) were not taken. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it isn't a justification even with no other options, since the geth will be killed or reprogrammed either way, whether by the quarians or eventually the Reapers once they've served their purpose

The geth are not being held to a different standard. If the Reapers showed up at any other race's planet and their government were to ally with and serve the goals of the Reapers without being indoctrinated for any purpose, anyone who fought for said government would be an enemy in need of destruction, no questions.

[TheN7Penguin]

Anyone who aids the Reapers must die.

 

Saren - Dead.

 

Illusive Man - Dead.

 

Indoctrinated Hanar - Dead.

 

Basically everything else that's indoctrinated - Dead.

 

Collectors - Dead.

 

Geth (which are the digital equivalent of indoctrinated) - Dead.

 

It makes sense.

[Quarian Master Race]

Geth (which are the digital equivalent of indoctrinated) - Dead.

It's worse than that. The geth willingly chose indoctrination, a large minority of them on two separate occasions (if Heretics aren't destroyed). 

Even Saren and TIM were not willingly indoctrinated and both attempted to resist it.

[TheN7Penguin]

Yes, I agree. It is almost like a human who threw themselves on to the Dragon's Teeth willingly to become a Husk.

 

It would make no sense to save a Husk.

[Quarian Master Race]

I think TIM is about as dumb actually.

 

He was zapped by a Reaper artifact when younger, but never fully indoctrinated. So he thought he was immune. This made him dumb enough to take risks and think he could get close and unlock the power of  Reaper tech. 

 

But this motivation... to unlock the power and bring humanity to a new level.... It's the same as Legion's. Trying to fast forward evolution. And thinking you've found some "safe" way to do it. 

That's why I made the exception for Legion in the post above. It's motivations in the 3rd game are almost exactly the same as TIM's, yet we are railroaded into considering the latter an enemy and the former an ally (at least temporarily). Shepard has some schizoid moral reasoning.

My optimal outcome for the Rannoch Arc would have been the quarians regaining control over the geth and using them as tools in the war as Xen intended, which unfortunately wasn't an option like Koris and Gerrel's preferred methods of dealing with them. Something like telling Legion/Geth VI that allowing them Reaper code is not acceptable, and if it wants its people to live it must submit. After all, the latter is the same deal offered by the Reapers, and they have no problem accepting that one (substitute "Reaper code" for Self Determination).

[Kynare]

 

None of those races were corrupted in their entirety for one, and none of them willingly apart from rouge individuals (Saren/ TIM). All the geth willingly joined the Reapers as allies in the extermination of all advanced organic life in the galaxy, except for perhaps Legion (and we aren't even sure of that considering its runtimes carry Reaper code upgrades like all others).

Self preservation isn't a valid excuse until it is shown why all other possible options (the most obvious one being a retreat from all contested quarian systems such as Rannoch) were not taken.

The geth are not being held to a different standard. If the Reapers showed up at any other race's planet and their government were to ally with and serve the goals of the Reapers without being indoctrinated for any purpose, anyone who fought for said government would be an enemy in need of destruction, no questions.

 

Where is it said that they agreed to kill all organic races along with the Reapers? From what I can see, it's not explicitly stated exactly what the Reapers' offer was. But the fact that the Reapers uploaded a virus to the geth consensus suggests that there was never an intent on the geth's part to remain a willing ally. The Reapers intended to destroy both the geth and the quarians. Once they discovered the Reaper virus, they appealed to Shepard for help in releasing them, which was a move that helped both the geth and the quarians. If their intent was purely to support the Reapers, then they would ignored any attempts to communicate from Shepard and promptly proceeded with wiping out the quarians. They certainly wouldn't have raised their shields and deactivated their guns.

 

As for why they didn't evacuate Rannoch, there's not really enough evidence to make a clear distinction if that was intended to be some kind of declaration of war. The quarians never attempted to communicate with the geth about it, and any reports they did receive about the quarian's status suggested they still had every intention to destroy every geth in the galaxy. Why give a potential enemy power if they intend to use it to destroy your own kind? At the very least, they could have still been trying to reach a consensus or holding out for the chance that the quarians would negotiate. The quarians launched a surprise attack on them without any prior communication, so we don't know what they would have done if the quarians attempted negotiation. Tali herself was the only one who tried, and that hit a blank wall as soon as the Admiralty had a hand in it.

 

They couldn't just go anywhere. The Council still had laws against AIs. There would be a much larger war against them had they left "geth" space. Same reason why the quarians couldn't just let them go free when they first showed signs of sentience. The quarians created the geth in their territory, so by Council standards, they probably see the geth as having a right to remain there regardless if peace between the two races has been established. Negotiation was the best option aside from outright genocide. In their position, Rannoch/quarian space was the best place to achieve both.

 

I think we still have different opinions on "corruption" too. I saw TIM as a tyrant, but his ideas to use Reaper tech wasn't unwarranted. Reaper tech is just that--technology. It's the AI (Catalyst) and their platform that determines how it's used. Additionally, it's not tech that the geth are using, it's coding. No external upgrades, no risk of indoctrinating organics. We've already seen in the consensus that the geth are capable of identifying Reaper viruses, and they can use that to their advantage. If the Reaper code functions by allowing the geth individual processes for each platform, there's no concerns of corrupt one = corrupt all. Post-upgrade, their platform is probably more secure than EDI.

 

But really, if the main reason to destroy the geth is the fear of advanced technology (like EDI, the mass relays, the Citadel), then that's perfectly fine. The universe will function either way. I would see it as an opportunity to improve the way of living though. My optimal outcome is what occurs in-game after establishing peace: the quarians learn from the geth (though I don't think it would occur as easily as depicted, they should be appealing to the Council and working out the kinks), and their technology helps improve their ability to adapt. Species will go at it either way in the future, might as well reap the benefits while you have it.

[von uber]

The Geth sided with a species who would've destroyed them anyway. Seems a bit stupid if you ask me.

[Kynare]

Being a synthetic, I don't think "O WELL, GOODBYE WURLD!" is in their programming. The ability to analyze the Reapers' code was a pretty important variable that had a chance of helping or hindering them, whereas denying the offer was a 100% chance of utter destruction by either the quarians or the Reapers themselves. I think that's a perfectly justifiable reason to attempt it. I would if I knew I had the capability and didn't have debilitating pheromones that make me incapable of thinking during times of stress.