279 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

I think it's OK if Kasumi felt this way. It's kind of cool that at least one former squadmate is a bit traumatized... and not just civilians. At the time of her appearance, the Citadel is just starting to have refugees crawl in and people are realizing they live in a nightmare. She kind of blends with them... and feels useless against it. She doesn't have the "I win button".

 

It probably makes even more sense if you saved the greybox. This way she has even more reasons to curl up and isolate herself... hiding in some room, living in some delusion with a virtual Keiji, while the Reapers ravage the galaxy.

That's not who she is. And neither does anyone else. But still they fight. Because the alternative is extinction.

Edit: And Nyreen doesn't go hide in a corner. She has a very specific phobia and her entire arc is about overcoming it. The two are not even close.

 

And that last literally makes me want to puke.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't like it myself, but it makes sense to me. People actually do get trapped in comfortable pastimes and delusions during war. It's not like you can't talk her out of it, but I think it's cool that the temptation is there for her. Despite being competent, she's a sensitive person.

 

It doesn't matter who she is either... the point they're trying to make is that the Reapers feel unstoppable. Sometimes it's easy to forget that when you play Shepard, but it's always been the message about them. They tried their best to lay it on thick in this game especially though.

Again, they could've gone that route without making it impossible that she and Shepard are close.

 

And it does matter. Characters are the only thing they've got going for them. Ruining one for the sake of cheap drama you already have elsewhere is unthinkable.

[Vazgen]

I can agree she would prefer not to fight when possible. But I maintain she does when necessary (and what's more necessary than preventing the extinction of all life as we know it?) I imagine her training was more in line with that of a ninja/assassin type but she's philosophically opposed to that kind of life. She has a line during Thane's recruitment "That's rich, an assassin with a heart" delivered in a sardonic tone that suggests she doesn't think much of the profession. But being opposed to killing or violence on principle is different from being a coward. And the lines "last time I did that you roped me into a suicide mission" and "there's no way you're recruiting me to fight in a galactic war" are cowardly.
 
And if that was the best place for her she would've/should've realized and would've/should've done what was necessary. If there was a better use of her skills (like procuring for the Crucible) she should've said that instead. Literally anything but "no I don't want to". She contacted Shepard because he was the only one who could do something about it without immediately trying to arrest her. Resentment doesn't mean total hatred and refusal to contact.

I guess we have different perceptions of the character then. I thought of her as fighting only if she personally is pressed into it. As an example situation, if she's on Earth when Reapers attack it, she would not fight Reaper forces, she'll try to help refugees to sneak out of Reaper-controlled areas. It's not cowardice, it's playing to one's strengths. She can fight but she's more effective at stealth.
 
As for the Crucible project, remember, she does not know about it. It's a secret project that no one knows about.
 
 

And all of this is getting a bit off point. I'm talking about necessity, but what about loyalty? What about friendship? ME2 was about building a fire-forged team of trusted operatives who would see you through to the end, if you in turn won their loyalty. You helped them with their problems, you showed them you cared and they in turn supported you. Then you went through hell together and came out the other end. That's the kind of bond that should be made for life. Even if life takes you in different directions. Every other squadmate greets you and treats you like a comrade. They can't help you personally, it can't be like it was. But there's an understanding there regardless. Where was that here? That's where my complaint starts. Where is my friendship with Kasumi? It's literally impossible to infer one. I can accept every argument you've made about her motivations and I still can't reconcile that with a friendship. I might as well be talking to a random NPC. That, I think is unacceptable. Especially when there are so many better ways to go about it. Especially when there's bits you can use already there. She has a line "I can't do another Collector Base, Shep" while you're hacking the terminals. It's delivered softer, in a friendlier tone, almost with a hint of sadness. That's excellent. Even if you magnify that and go Kelly 2.0 and say she's traumatized, it still works better than what we have. I'd still think it was cheap. But it'd be passable. What we have now though, is irredeemable. I'm using tricks to cut off her lines. When I was playing more regularly I was considering modding the game to blank out her lines. When you're actively trying to see less of your favorite character, you know the content is ****.

The bond you're talking about is not as strong with her as it is with, say, Samara. Shepard's assistance in the heist is one of the requirements for her recruitment. He's expected to help her.

When I read about feelings and thieves, this line from Thief II comes to mind: Link

Thievery is a lonely profession, there is little place for feelings and attachments, especially with people not from your line of work. I think if Kasumi is pressed before choosing to fight alongside Shepard or losing their friendship, she'll choose the latter. I think it's a good character writing that fits very well with her profession and her outlook on the crew, mission and world events. Remember when Kelly said that it'll be a challenge to know real Kasumi? I think the only time we've seen real Kasumi was during that scene with Keiji's graybox. In every other situation she keeps everyone at a distance (probably because of what happened to Keiji)

 

 

And Jack may be OK but where she is, in both games, makes no sense.

 

I would've countered this but we have gone far enough off-topic already. I'll be happy to discuss it further via PM or Kasumi's/Jack's thread

[themikefest]

Personally, I'd want bigger roles for all squadmates.

 

I like bigger roles for crewmembers who are not squadmates

[Quarian Master Race]

Not in ME1 she isn't. I'm talking first appearance on the squad. She's a kid then and while the Pilgrimage is supposed to be a "fend for yourself" right of passage, fend for yourself does not mean "hop into active war zones". She really shouldn't be anywhere near a battlefield. Either back to her Pilgrimage or engineer duties on the Normandy. Yet she doesn't whine about it later. That was my point.
 

Specifically having military training isn't important. I think combat training or specifically being equipped to be a combatant is more of what we're getting at. And most squadmates do. The ones I listed however do not. And yet only one of them whines about it. That's what I think is unjustified. If Tali and Liara can suck it up and become badasses in their own right (some more believable than others), if Thane can suck it up from his deathbed, then Kasumi should too. Particularly when Kasumi as is would be far superior in combat to Liara and Tali when they started out. And she does, to be fair. I just really hate how those lines come across.

It isn't elaborated on as to exactly when Tali recieves her military training, but I would logically put it before the first game judging by the fact that she has two different types of weapons training just like your other former military tech specialist/ combat engineer (Garrus), and unlike the only squadmate who seems to have no formal combat training (Liara), military or otherwise juding by her lack of weapons training. Her demeanor of not "whining" in combat situations (indeed, her combat dialogue seems to point to her enjoying fights) is probably a result of said training/ mental conditioning and likely experience in combat situations. Also, we have to consider calling her a "kid" in context. She isn't a grizzled old veteran like Wrex, Shep Garrus etc but she is still 22 years of age by the first game. That's enough to have more than been at military age for multiple years. So no I don't think she "shouldn't be anywhere near a battlefield". You don't learn to use a shotgun by exclusively working on ship engines.

I agree with you on the second point of "military" not being a requirement, (apart from as mentioned the assertion of Tali not having any sort of combat training or being incapable of combat) and how Kasumi's reasoning in ME3 for not joining up is pretty stupid.

 

But in Citadel DLC she just gets wasted because "party, let's have fun" (at least that's how I remember it).

Ashley's drinking was a not really good addition to her character (not only in Citadel). I should've said that ME3 butchered Ash, not Citadel which just builds over already established personality. 

You're entitled to your opinions but I really don't agree. I don't see "Party, let's have fun" as out of character for either of them or even a negative attitude to have in proper context, and actually think it adds a characteristic that serves to "humanize" (one isn't human, whatever) them. It's not like either of them are swigging and leaving empty dextro vodka bottles all over engineering while on duty or taking pulls off a flask in the middle of missions. It's a couple instances over what is supposed to be a multi-month long conflict. Grunt gets equally wasted and ends up on the floor of the bathroom as well. Do you have a problem with his character being assasinated in a similar manner?

As for Ash, the only butchery IMO is what they did to her appearance. She seems fairly consistent in her behavior and development with her ME1 counterpart. Care to elaborate more?

[themikefest]

What do you mean? Like the Traynors and Jokers?

 

Yep.

[CrutchCricket]

There's a deeper message here. The whole point of the Citadel in this game is a numbing effect on the mind, where people live in escape and delusion. James points it out right away. Joker jokes about Blasto selling a lot of tickets. But you see it everywhere. It doesn't hurt that one squad member feels tempted by it.

 

Funnily, it takes that indoctrinated Hanar to kick Kasumi out of her own delusion.

Except she's not deluded, she knows full well what the Reapers are, unlike the random civilians on the Citadel who never saw one (and there's a difference between them and the refugees, you can tell just from their tones) and she directly references the war. She just flat out refuses to help. And before you knock the Citadel civilians, remember the ones on the Presidium that want to join up? You can talk them into doing support or going on the front lines and it is the naivete of the noobs but that doesn't change facts- random NPCs are more admirable than a former squadmate.

 

It's a nice theory, or better put, a nice try to excuse what can't be excused. But it just doesn't fly.

 

I guess we have different perceptions of the character then. I thought of her as fighting only if she personally is pressed into it. As an example situation, if she's on Earth when Reapers attack it, she would not fight Reaper forces, she'll try to help refugees to sneak out of Reaper-controlled areas. It's not cowardice, it's playing to one's strengths. She can fight but she's more effective at stealth.
 
As for the Crucible project, remember, she does not know about it. It's a secret project that no one knows about.

Fighting to cover innocents is still fighting. Do I think she'd charge enemies head-on? Of course not. But she'd do her part. If that means rescuing civilians, so be it. But if it means sneaking past Reaper forces to hack into a bridge control to allow relief forces to reinforce an area, then yeah she'd do that too. And if a Marauder or a group of them happens to be right in front of those bridge controls blocking them, then of course she'd take him/them down.

 

And she doesn't have to say "I'll work on the Crucible never mind how I know". Offering to rescue civilians like the above example or steal schematics for Cerberus turrets is sufficient.

[Vazgen]

You're entitled to your opinions but I really don't agree. I don't see "Party, let's have fun" as a negative attitude to have in proper context. It's not like either of them are swigging and leaving empty dextro vodka bottles all over engineering while on duty or taking pulls off a flask in the middle of missions. It's a couple instances over what is supposed to be a multi-month long conflict. Grunt gets equally wasted and ends up on the floor of the bathroom as well? Do you have a problem with his character being assasinated in a similar manner?

As for Ash, the only butchery IMO is what they did to her appearance. She seems fairly consistent in her behavior and development with her ME1 counterpart. Care to elaborate more?

Grunt? Nah, not really. First, he does not risk as much when drinking. Second, it's Grunt. Such behavior is totally expected from a pure krogan Third, he's still a kid  

 

Ashley's butchery? Well, most of it comes from being drunk on the ship. And while Tali has an excuse (a pretty good one, Sanctuary events hit too close to home), Ashley's excuse is to get her mind of some stuff which is never mentioned. Garrus is under more stress as an advisor to the Primarch and having his family on Palaven, but he doesn't get drunk. They are both career soldiers. Too much focus on Cerberus doesn't help either. Kaidan has it too, but he does try to see the other side of a coin, while Ashley doesn't care about it. I think ME1 Ash would not have been so focused on them. 

I guess, part of what plays here is that I don't like people who don't know when to stop when it comes to liquor. I can drink quite a lot but never to a point of not controlling my words, actions or not remembering what I did yesterday. 

[CrutchCricket]

It isn't elaborated on as to exactly when Tali recieves her military training, but I would logically put it before the first game judging by the fact that she has two different types of weapons training just like your other former military tech specialist/ combat engineer (Garrus), and unlike the only squadmate who seems to have no formal combat training (Liara), military or otherwise juding by her lack of weapons training. Her demeanor of not "whining" in combat situations (indeed, her combat dialogue seems to point to her enjoying fights) is probably a result of said training/ mental conditioning and likely experience in combat situations. Also, we have to consider calling her a "kid" in context. She isn't a grizzled old veteran like Wrex, Shep Garrus etc but she is still 22 years of age by the first game. That's enough to have more than been at military age for multiple years. So no I don't think she "shouldn't be anywhere near a battlefield". You don't learn to use a shotgun by exclusively working on ship engines.

Training in two weapons I would put under game mechanics (all squadmates have it, except for Ashley who as a soldier is trained in all of them) and under Pilgrimage preparation. Of course they'll teach her to defend herself. But that doesn't mean she's ready for spec ops. And I'm no expert but out of the available weapons a shotgun is probably the easiest to learn. It emphasizes close quarters and doesn't take much to aim.

 

And seeing as the Pilgrimage is a coming to age tradition, then yes, she is a kid, by quarian standards when she starts out. She grows into an adult, that's her journey. In the first game at least.

 

I mean not the proper frame of mind, more like. It's not cheap drama to have Shep kick her back into gear.

 

 

In any case, don't get too pissed off over her role. It'll just eat at you if you do. I know how it feels. Hell, I romanced Jack. lol. Out of all the Weekes' characters, Tali is the most popular and gets too much attention.. But to me, she's low on my list. Mordin, Jack, Kasumi are better... and they got screwed. edit: Not to mention Miranda, who he's partially responsible for too.

It is cheap because even if that's what they were going for they did it wrong. Totally wrong.

 

It's been a while since I've been really pissed about how much ME3 screwed up. Talking about it does stir up the rage a bit. And the sadness. But at this point, the disappointment isn't over the scenes themselves. They're over and done with. It's more about how hard it is to fix in my head. For a lot of things I can just say the hell with it and retreat into headcanon. But this is one of the cases where they didn't just destroy, they salted the earth too.

[Vazgen]

Fighting to cover innocents is still fighting. Do I think she'd charge enemies head-on? Of course not. But she'd do her part. If that means rescuing civilians, so be it. But if it means sneaking past Reaper forces to hack into a bridge control to allow relief forces to reinforce an area, then yeah she'd do that too. And if a Marauder or a group of them happens to be right in front of those bridge controls blocking them, then of course she'd take him/them down.

 

And she doesn't have to say "I'll work on the Crucible never mind how I know". Offering to rescue civilians like the above example or steal schematics for Cerberus turrets is sufficient.

Like I said, we probably have a different view of her character. I never expected her to volunteer (which is what you seem think she'd do) and would've considered it out of her character. She does not answer to Shepard. Her contacting him is a gesture of good will in light of their history. She has no obligations to commit to the war effort. If she sees the opportunity to help someone, she'll take it but she will not deliberately travel to Reaper-controlled systems to help with the war. That's how I viewed her character and that's why I like her

[MrFob]

Personal Preference:

Liara -> I don't know, I just ike her. Maybe it's the voice.

Garrus -> The eternal bro. Just an awesome guy

Mordin -> The geek of the group and he is perfectly fine with that. I can relate to that.

Legion (ME2) -> A very interesting character. His conversations are the most interesting in ME2

Wrex -> A force when in action but more intelligent thatn one would predict on first glance. He was a worthy first representation of the Krogan

James -> Sure, he is just "the new guy" in ME3 but he is making the best out of it and his VA gets across an uncaring simple charm that makes him a fun character to have around

Tali -> Well, what can you say, she is cute, even if a bit naive, especially when her people are concerned

Kasumi -> Who doesn't like the adorable female thief. She is just fun to have around

Thane -> I do have a problem with some of his attitudes and can't really relate to his spirituality but I think in his heart, he is a good guy

EDI -> She was a very interesting character in ME2 and even in ME3, she had her moments

Grunt -> I find him a bit too crude but well, what can you expect from a Krogan newborn

Kaidan -: A bit bland and too introverted, Mr. nice guy is just that and not more

Samara -> I have a real problem with her fanaticism towards the code and her inflexibility. She tries to do the right thing but she lost her connection to the real world IMO

Miranda -> I get where she is coming from and why she hooked up with Cerberus but I can't condone it. Also, I am not fond of the ice queen attitude

Ashley -> She was ok in ME1 (still not someone I'd be friends with in RL), awkward in ME2 and downright weird in ME3. Get a brain girl.

Jack -> I pitty Jack more than anything else in ME2. She clearly has issues to work out and actually she needs help (though she'd never accept it). Her change in ME3 created a great character in that game, but it was so sudden that it bordered on the unbelievable

Javik -> A bit like Samara, he is too inflexible for my tastes. I get where he is coming from but I cannot abide his attitudes or his smug superiority complex.

Zaeed -> He is the classic mercenary a$$hole IMO, not much more to say

Jacob -> One word: Boring! Maybe sometimes mixed with a little obnoxious. If I could, I'd have kicked him off the ship in ME2

Morinth -> I recruited Morinth once, to see the result. IMO she has no business even being an option for a squadmate

 

Writing and their effect as characters in a story:

Wrex _> As I said above, he represents the Krogan at their best. The perfect blend of brute and philosopher all the way through the trilogy. His character development from disillusioned mercenary to the leader who carries the future of his race on his shoulders is exemplary for good character writing. His last appearance in Citadel perfectly capitalizes on the bind the player has built with him before. Even his optional deaths at multiple occasions fit perfectly. Congrats to BW for this achievement.

Garrus -> A beautiful character with may options to him which somehow all fit into the context, be it player romance, death at the collector base or even a non-player romance with Tali. He is a true friend character and those are not easily created.

Samara -> I may not really like her in game but her writing in both ME2 and 3 is excellent and perfectly demonstrates the downsides of fanaticism, even in a benevolent cause.

Javik -> I like to dislike Javik. That is because his motivations and attitudes are believable and grounded in a very rich back story. He also gives us a unique perspective, the one of an individual, that spent his entire life in a state of constant war (and we should remember that there are people in real life, that are living under such circumstances and it may not be surprising, if their views on the world are just as hard to swallow).

Thane -> Another character with great dialogue and IMO a worthy end in ME3 although true Thane fans will obviously disagree, I thought his death - while it could have been executed better - was fitting in principle.

Jack -> As  said above, her abrupt and very complete change from ME2 to 3 was hard to believe but in the end, she was a well written character in both games, although for different reasons.

Grunt -> He was alright overall and has some awesome moments. Nothing too special though.

Tali -> While Tali is cute overall and has some great moments in ME2, she does get downgraded on this list by two factors: 1. She was mainly a giant exposition device in ME1, with not much of her own personality and 2. IMO, her ascension to the admiralty board in ME3 was a bit too convenient and smelled too much of yet another plot device to shove a familiar face in an important role.

Mordin (would be way higher if it were not for ME3) -> A brilliant character in ME2 with really interesting dialogue, his 180 in ME3 downgraded him to no end (without it, he'd be right up there with Garrus and Wrex). Granted, his death is brilliantly done, no matter if by Shepard's hand or not but the entire scenario through which we get there in ME3 just doesn't fit the character.

Liara -> IMO a classic example of too much character development. Yes, characters should grow but she grew so much that it's hard for the audience to keep track. From naive and socially awkward archeologist through celebrity on Illium to wise Shadow Broker in less than 3 years? Tough, especially when considering that the long living asari are not exactly experts in quick changes. Add to that her sometimes eratic behaviour in ME2 and 3 and I can't rank her higher than this, even though I do like personally.

Miranda -> Miranda is an interesting character in a way. It's just that her family issues are taking up so much screen time that I feel she is wasted in a way. Yes, the entire thing with her genetic engineering complex has a certain appeal but the sister and father story would have been enough for ME2. I found the more interesting parts of her character didn't get enough attention. Her views on Cerberus only get a few lines in ME2 and are barely explored or resolved. And what about her sterility? It's hinted at in LotSB but we never even get to talk about it. She needed more facets to her than just being defined through her genetics.

Legion (would be way higher if it were not for ME3) -> And here is the second candidate that would be in the top 5 without ME3. In this case it is even worse than Mordin because so much potential was wasted here. Legion was an ingenious character in ME2, why? Because he was so different. It's tough for a human writer to come up with a truly alien character but Chris L'Etoille succeeded. Unfortunately, that was butchered in ME3, when Legion became a mixture of Pinocchio and Judas. The entire race of the geth was led ad absurdum in this travesty and "Does this unit have a soul" was a cheap shot, that does nothing to save the day. One of the worst fails of ME3 is Legion.

Kasumi -> Well, as I said, she is a fun character but nothing more, really. She has little depth to her beyond the thief archetype, complete with the personal agenda of rescuing her old lovers memories. Nothing special.

EDI (would be higher if it were not for ME3) -> And here is he third and final character that did not benefit from ME3 (even though it's not as bad in this case as it was in the previous two). EDI was really cool in ME2. She was the ship. She wasn't just an AI on the sip but she was the ship itself. While not entirely new in concept, it was cool and it could have been developed nicely in ME3 (including the Joker romance which could have been much better this way IMO). Instead, we get yet another sexy female Data who wants to emulate humans with the help and insight of the captain. Yawn! It doesn't help, that EDI is the go-to person for the writers whenever they need an AI to say that now they feel "truly alive" (I think, including the EC, she does 3 or 4 times during the game). Well, how alive can you get?

Ashley -> Unlike EDI, who has a steep decline, Ash declines gradually throughout the trilogy. She started off as a fairly competent grunt (no pun intended) but even during ME1, she got more cliche with every dialogue (going through all stages, including the tragic military family history and climaxing in her reciting poetry, Tennyson of all writers, who is so overused in SciFi that the citations are almost classics in their own rights). She than has the most awkward appearance in the entirety of ME2 before going fully off the rails in ME3, where obnoxious, unprofessional and inappropriate (dresscode) are only topped by a scene where she lies on the floor drunk, right before a mission. Wait, didn't I start this paragraph talking about a fairly competent soldier? Well, where did that go?

Kaidan -> Mr. Nice Guy. Kaidan is reasonable, well spoken, educated, tolerant, receptive and compassionate. There is just one thing he is lacking: an edge. He doesn't have a single feat that distiguishes him as a character. Oh sure, he accidentally killed an instructor ten years or more ago in training but as he himself says: "it's old baggage" and "[he] walked it off a long time ago", so honestly, who cares. Other than that, there is nothing beyond a genuinely nive person. I'd probably like him well enough in RL but as a character in a story, he is lacking.

Jacob -:> Well, you have to hand it to BW, if they did try to create a douche character, they succeeded. That is the only reason why Jacob is not last on this list because I am amazed, that we have a veritable jerk as a squad mate. That alone should bring him up higher on this list but I have the suspicion that BW dd not intend this and it kinda happened by accident, so he stays in the low.

James -> I think James' likability is in large parts due to his VA. The character itself is very forced. One immediately knows that he is there for the new players in ME3 and while that role is handled with a cerain amount of grace, the fact remains that this is his role. That puts him low on the writer's ranking. It doesn't help, that he is the protagonist of Paragon Lost, which is one of the definite low points in the ME publications, not much above Deception.

Zaeed -> Zaeed is one dimensional, that is the problem I have with the character. He is the uncompromising Badass and that's it. There is really not much more to write about him, so he doesn't deserve to be higher on the list.

Morinth -> And yet again, she would have been fine as an NPC but the fact alone that she was made a squad mate on the one hand but that the writers didn't even have the guts to make her unique (she had to "mimic" Samara in ME2 and wasn't there in ME3) almost makes her a non-character. The sex-and-death scene, which is just a gimmick is not enough to rank her up, so last place for her.

Modifié par MrFob, 08 avril 2015 - 08:44 .

[Quarian Master Race]

Grunt? Nah, not really. First, he does not risk as much when drinking. Second, it's Grunt. Such behavior is totally expected from a pure krogan Third, he's still a kid

 

Ashley's butchery? Well, most of it comes from being drunk on the ship. And while Tali has an excuse (a pretty good one, Sanctuary events hit too close to home), Ashley's excuse is to get her mind of some stuff which is never mentioned. Garrus is under more stress as an advisor to the Primarch and having his family on Palaven, but he doesn't get drunk. They are both career soldiers. Too much focus on Cerberus doesn't help either. Kaidan has it too, but he does try to see the other side of a coin, while Ashley doesn't care about it. I think ME1 Ash would not have been so focused on them. 

I guess, part of what plays here is that I don't like people who don't know when to stop when it comes to liquor. I can drink quite a lot but never to a point of not controlling my words, actions or not remembering what I did yesterday. 

Not as much a risk? Nothing comes of it. Maybe you could say Tali has plot armor or whatever, but if she can get shot and have suit ruptures on multiple occasions, drinking seems fairly pedestrian by comparison. I also don't see how such behavior can be expected of Grunt and not Tali aside from perhaps racial characteristics. She's still only 24-25 which I would still describe as a "kid" too in relative terms to most of the others. Drinking is not an uncommon thing. Really, people in that age bracket who DON'T party and drink are probably less common than those who do.

Ashley specifically has a line about being off duty. Why can't she blow off steam? Shepard can shag crewmates in the goddamn engine room hours before a major operation. Why can't Ash drink while the ship is at FTL between missions and she isn't needed?

The Cerberus crap is part of and consistent with her character. I don't think it clashes at all with her previous characterization to the point of being called "butchery". You could be mad that she isn't as reasonable or willing to reevaluate her viewpoint on the issue as Kaidan, but was she ever as reasonable about anything as him? Remember their contrasting views on Aliens in the first game and how she didn't really start to show signs of a change from her distaste for them until around Virmire?

 

Training in two weapons I would put under game mechanics (all squadmates have it, except for Ashley who as a soldier is trained in all of them) and under Pilgrimage preparation. Of course they'll teach her to defend herself. But that doesn't mean she's ready for spec ops. And I'm no expert but out of the available weapons a shotgun is probably the easiest to learn. It emphasizes close quarters and doesn't take much to aim.

 

And seeing as the Pilgrimage is a coming to age tradition, then yes, she is a kid, by quarian standards when she starts out. She grows into an adult, that's her journey. In the first game at least.

No they don't. Neither Kaidan nor Liara have any weapon specialization (though Kaidan is military). Tali, Wrex and Garrus all have 2 and Ash has 4. No one implied Tali was some high speed spec ops member, but similarly she isn't completely untrained like say Liara. There is a lot of middle ground in there, and not every military occupation for which one recieves basic training involves primarily dropping out of a helicotper/ shuttle to shoot Terrorists/ Geth. Indeed, the majority of people in the military are POGs but they all learned how to operate a weapon and received the mental conditioning to hopefully help them not turn into a blubbering sack of fail should they ever come under fire.

"Kid" in context. The Pilgrimage is something that is undertaken to become a full adult as described in dialogue. So yes, it is a "coming of age" but those who undertake it aren't really adolescents (in the sense that this implies one is a dependant). It's more akin to one going off to University or doing national service after completing secondary school. A 19 year old doing military service right out of high school can be called a "kid" even though he/she is legally an adult due to young age and limited life experience. It doesn't preclude said person from having already learned applicable professional skills.

[themikefest]

Grunt? Nah, not really. First, he does not risk as much when drinking. Second, it's Grunt. Such behavior is totally expected from a pure krogan Third, he's still a kid

 

Ashley's butchery? Well, most of it comes from being drunk on the ship. And while Tali has an excuse (a pretty good one, Sanctuary events hit too close to home), Ashley's excuse is to get her mind of some stuff which is never mentioned. Garrus is under more stress as an advisor to the Primarch and having his family on Palaven, but he doesn't get drunk. They are both career soldiers. Too much focus on Cerberus doesn't help either. Kaidan has it too, but he does try to see the other side of a coin, while Ashley doesn't care about it. I think ME1 Ash would not have been so focused on them. 

I guess, part of what plays here is that I don't like people who don't know when to stop when it comes to liquor. I can drink quite a lot but never to a point of not controlling my words, actions or not remembering what I did yesterday. 

If anything, Traynor has more of an excuse to have a drink then anyone after Sanctuary. Half her colony is taken by the collectors in ME2 while she was there, her parents live on Horizon and most likely dead with what happened on Sanctuary

[Vazgen]

Not as much a risk? Nothing comes of it. Maybe you could say Tali has plot armor or whatever, but if she can get shot and have suit ruptures on multiple occasions, drinking seems fairly pedestrian by comparison. I also don't see how such behavior can be expected of Grunt and not Tali aside from perhaps racial characteristics. She's still only 24-25 which I would still describe as a "kid" too in relative terms to most of the others. Drinking is not an uncommon thing. Really, people in that age bracket who DON'T party and drink are probably less common than those who do.

Ashley specifically has a line about being off duty. Why can't she blow off steam? Shepard can shag crewmates in the goddamn engine room hours before a major operation. Why can't Ash drink while the ship is at FTL between missions and she isn't needed?

The Cerberus crap is part of and consistent with her character. I don't think it clashes at all with her previous characterization to the point of being called "butchery". You could be mad that she isn't as reasonable or willing to reevaluate her viewpoint on the issue as Kaidan, but was she ever as reasonable about anything as him? Remember their contrasting views on Aliens in the first game and how she didn't really start to show signs of a change from her distaste for them until around Virmire?

Javik's words "A foolish risk considering quarian symbiotic physiology". The racial characteristics pretty much define why I'm willing to accept Grunt's drunken state. 

 

Blowing off steam can come in different varieties (as Garrus can tell ). I wouldn't bring Shepard here because of him being an awesome space marine who can do whatever he wants, but if you want to - my Shepard does not "shag crewmates in the goddamn engine room hours before a major operation". He has a cabin for that Ashley is presented as someone who takes her duties very seriously in ME1. Getting drunk to the point of ending up on a floor during active duty does not fit with that.

 

She was. Notice how there are signs of change around Virmire? Well, there are no signs of change about Cerberus through the entire game. Remember a line "You tell me to kiss a turian, I ask what cheek"? There is only one point of her questioning Shepard in ME1 - after Kaidan's death, when she feels guilty for that. In ME3 we get her questioning Shepard all the time. 

[BraveVesperia]

Mordin > Ashley > Jack > Javik > Tali > Legion > Joker > Kasumi > Grunt > Wrex > Samara > EDI > Miranda > Samantha > Zaeed > Garrus > Kaidan > Liara > Morinth > Steve > Thane > Jacob > Vega

 

More or less. My favourites are:

Mordin - for being hilarious, interesting and a uniquely good person. He's obviously moral and wants to help people, but can be ruthless. And of course his genophage work is an interesting grey area. The singing is marvellous. Things like his speedy-talking also add to his charm.

Ashley - she's just really normal and human. Strong convictions, honest, loyal, family-oriented, funny, tough. I think her character was lessened in ME3, but she really shines in ME1.

Jack - very unusual and her stories are fascinating because of it. I really like seeing her grow as a person and learn how to be part of a team.

Javik - unique perspective, hilarious trolling, and a completely unexpected take on the Protheans. Also that voice, I love it.

Tali - adorable, intelligent, loyal to a fault, and wonderful to see develop from ME1 through to ME3. Helped make me love the quarian people and their story.

Legion - the main reason I was willing to understand the geth. Interesting perspective and unique character. Cute and funny. Completely ruthless. Love their interaction with Tali.

Joker - hilarious guy. I really like the fact that he's got a different set of strengths to the rest of the main crew. Plus, he sticks with Normandy Shepard no matter what. His interactions with EDI in ME2 were marvellous.

Kasumi - upbeat and entertaining. I love her little stories about the stuff around her room and gossip. If only she joined the party instead of rooting through Shep's unmentionables!

 

Not so keen:

Thane - I don't dislike him, but there's the deadbeat dad thing, the 'Carth syndrome', and the slightly unnerving vocalised memories.

Jacob - never really has any depth to his Normandy conversations (often passive-aggressive for no reason). FemShep constantly sounds like she wants to jump him. I know that's not Jacob's fault, but it really soured his character interactions.

Vega - I just have no interest at all. Plus awkward flirting. I would've taken him out and put an old face back in the party.

[CrutchCricket]

Like I said, we probably have a different view of her character. I never expected her to volunteer (which is what you seem think she'd do) and would've considered it out of her character. She does not answer to Shepard. Her contacting him is a gesture of good will in light of their history. She has no obligations to commit to the war effort. If she sees the opportunity to help someone, she'll take it but she will not deliberately travel to Reaper-controlled systems to help with the war. That's how I viewed her character and that's why I like her

Not volunteer as in immediately offer to jump in before we even open our mouth. But literally every other squadmate is doing something else, usually for the war and that's the reason they can't join. None ot the other squadmates "answer" to Shepard either. And yet the difference is clear.
This is a war to save everything about our way of life. Everyone has an obligation to commit to doing something, so long as they are able.And Kasumi does do her part and travels to Reaper systems, as evidenced by her Citadel line.
It's just that we had to pass through **** to get to the good part.

[Vazgen]

Not volunteer as in immediately offer to jump in before we even open our mouth. But literally every other squadmate is doing something else, usually for the war and that's the reason they can't join. None ot the other squadmates "answer" to Shepard either. And yet the difference is clear.
This is a war to save everything about our way of life. Everyone has an obligation to commit to doing something, so long as they are able.And Kasumi does do her part and travels to Reaper systems, as evidenced by her Citadel line.
It's just that we had to pass through **** to get to the good part.

I thought you only get her Citadel line after convincing her to work on the Crucible?

What does Samara do? She goes after her daughters. What does Miranda do? She goes after her sister. Kasumi actually does something about Reaper War by giving Bau the information that can save hanar homeworld. She arguably saves more lives than those two combined.