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[Hedlum]

So what are the limits, both legal and physical, of genetic engineering in the Mass Effect universe? (Game to game, if need be.)

I believe I recall that during the first game that this was briefly touched on by the codex. Something about how it was legal to cure a genetic desease but illegal to do something along the lines of adding things such as wings or a tail. (Or something along those lines... Is that actually possible?)

Like Miranda for example. Is she more the best that her fathers genes could offer or was her fathers genes used more as a base while better genes were imported from either organic or artificial sources?

What about the subject of 'designer babys.' Could it be possible that the default ME3 Femshep is one? Why is Miranda and her sister the simingly only ones when such a practice could be reasonable assumed to be widely available before or during any of the three games time periods?

[Laughing_Man]

So what are the limits, both legal and physical, of genetic engineering in the Mass Effect universe? (Game to game, if need be.)

I believe I recall that during the first game that this was briefly touched on by the codex. Something about how it was legal to cure a genetic desease but illegal to do something along the lines of adding things such as wings or a tail. (Or something along those lines... Is that actually possible?)

Like Miranda for example. Is she more the best that her fathers genes could offer or was her fathers genes used more as a base while better genes were imported from either organic or artificial sources?

What about the subject of 'designer babys.' Could it be possible that the default ME3 Femshep is one? Why is Miranda and her sister the simingly only ones when such a practice could be reasonable assumed to be widely available before or during any of the three games time periods?

 

IIRC you are right mostly, only that the restrictions might be even harsher than simply "no tails and wings" - implied by the fact that "medi-gel" had to recieve a special permission because how useful and life-saving it was. (The line is that you can improve existing features in humans, not add new ones)

 

Is that even possible? We are talking here about Sci-Fi, so maybe.

 

But why would you need the psychological complications that having wings might cause you, when you can potentially fly better and easier in many other ways - Example: If a Biotic can lower his mass sufficiently, and use a small thruster and a wing-suit, he might be able to fly better than a human with biological wings.

 

And that's before mentioning actual jetpacks.

 

In a sense, the ME universe is not *real* Sci-Fi in many aspects (aside from Eezo, Aliens, and FTL travel).

Many types of technology already exist today, and in many cases you don't really see why what "they" have would be any better than what "we" have.

 

An example that was mentioned is the "Omni-Tool", if you ignore the instant fabrication space-magic thing, an omni-tool is not really any more advanced than a current or next-gen smartphone. What I'm saying is, in areas that the ME universe doesn't have the advantage on the real world with Eezo, it is not very different or advanced than today's technology.

 

In regard to "Designer Babies", some forms of in utero genetic therapy are widespread in the ME universe.

Is that enough to consider most babies "designer babies"?

 

With Miranda and her sister(s?) this was merely taken to extreme, with almost nothing left to chance.

[Vazgen]

Here is the codex entry:

Genetic Engineering

In the 22nd century, manipulation of the human genome became commonplace. Techniques for genetic engineering advanced to the point where the rich could custom-build fetuses that grew into stronger, smarter, and more attractive adults. In more permissive regions, custom-designed life forms and "uplifted" animals occupied an ill-defined niche between "property" and "sapient being".

Travel to planets with unique forms of life brought an awareness that Earth's biodiversity could be lost if it spliced and hybridized to gain useful alien qualities. The Sudham-Wolcott Genetic Heritage Act was passed by the Systems Alliance Parliament in 2161. It imposed sharp restrictions on controversial uses of genetic engineering, but provided government subsidies for beneficial applications.

SCREENING AND THERAPY: Most governments provide free assessments and corrective therapy for genetic diseases in prospective parents. This has nearly eliminated everything from cystic fibrosis to nearsightedness. The earlier screening and therapy is performed, the more comprehensive the results. Though ideally performed on artificially fertilized zygotes in a lab, procedures are available for embryos in the womb and newborns, out of respect for personal beliefs.

ENHANCEMENT: Improvements of natural human abilities is legal, but adding new abilities is not. Treatments to improve strength, reflexes, mental ability, or appearance are permitted; adding a tail or the ability to digest cellulose is not. Some genetic enhancement is provided for free to Alliance military recruits, but the average citizen must pay for the privilege. The process can take years to reach fruition in an adult.

ENGINEERING: Artificial hybridization of genes from compatible non-human species with human genetic code is illegal. Creation of designed life is broadly legal (and mainly used for terraforming and medical applications), but sentient creatures are heavily regulated, and creation of sapient life is outlawed by both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council.

 

Also this:

Medi-Gel

The gel is a genetically engineered bioplasm created by the Sirta Foundation, a medical technology megacorp based on Earth. Technically, medi-gel violates Council laws against genetic engineering, but so far, it has proved far too useful to ban.

 

Regarding Miranda - creation of sapient life is outlawed by both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The day to day technology they have in the MEU is not that much more advanced than we have today. Some of the weapons, like the UV lasers will be put on naval ships starting in a year or two. We have rail guns. The tech is here.

 

Genetics....

 

One would think that the Asari would have been doing genetic research on Ardat-Yakshi syndrome and been able to identify genetic markers in utero. And identify parents who carry the genetic marker. Why it seems to manifest only in pureblood matings. Corrective gene therapy should have been developed. A society as scientifically advanced as theirs should have had a cure having been exploring the stars for over 2000 years. I don't buy the religious taboo sh*t because few practice the Athame doctrine, and Siarism seems to be pretty loose. The Asari don't strike me as a very religious society. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

The day to day technology they have in the MEU is not that much more advanced than we have today. Some of the weapons, like the UV lasers will be put on naval ships starting in a year or two. We have rail guns. The tech is here.

Genetics....

One would think that the Asari would have been doing genetic research on Ardat-Yakshi syndrome and been able to identify genetic markers in utero. And identify parents who carry the genetic marker. Why it seems to manifest only in pureblood matings. Corrective gene therapy should have been developed. A society as scientifically advanced as theirs should have had a cure having been exploring the stars for over 2000 years. I don't buy the religious taboo sh*t because few practice the Athame doctrine, and Siarism seems to be pretty loose. The Asari don't strike me as a very religious society.

I was thinking the same thing myself. How have they not conquered this AY thing by now? Or at least identify if someone carries the marker to make one.

But then there wouldn't be enough AY to fill up a monastery. There would hardly be any at all actually.

So maybe it just doesn't show up. Maybe there's no way to tell until the girl is a certain age or until she kills someone and gets caught.

Research should be done on it. How much more powerful can an AY become? Is their biotic potential limitless?

[Undead Han]

Like Miranda for example. Is she more the best that her fathers genes could offer or was her fathers genes used more as a base while better genes were imported from either organic or artificial sources?

What about the subject of 'designer babys.' Could it be possible that the default ME3 Femshep is one? Why is Miranda and her sister the simingly only ones when such a practice could be reasonable assumed to be widely available before or during any of the three games time periods?

 

Miranda was created from a cocktail of her father's genetic material and that of several women who were deemed worthy. Presumably the same would also have been true of Oriana.

 

My guess that genetically engineering designer babies like Miranda is considered unethical and probably illegal in Alliance or Council space. Assuming that is the case it would also probably be prohibitively expensive. Henry Lawson of course probably wasn't too concerned about laws or ethics and he is swimming in money, so neither would be barriers for him.

 

I'd guess that people like Miranda are fairly rare. It could be as well that the science isn't perfect and that there are still complications, if we can draw any conclusions from her infertility. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I was thinking the same thing myself. How have they not conquered this AY thing by now? Or at least identify if someone carries the marker to make one.

But then there wouldn't be enough AY to fill up a monastery. There would hardly be any at all actually.

So maybe it just doesn't show up. Maybe there's no way to tell until the girl is a certain age or until she kills someone and gets caught.

Research should be done on it. How much more powerful can an AY become? Is their biotic potential limitless?

 

See if they had, they wouldn't have had the mook generator needed for ME3 since Banshees are in boss waves.

 

So in my FF I have an Asari charity... AYS Search for a Cure Foundation.

[Treacherous J Slither]

See if they had, they wouldn't have had the mook generator needed for ME3 since Banshees are in boss waves.

So in my FF I have an Asari charity... AYS Search for a Cure Foundation.

I'd rather fund research into AY power potential. Life extension, mass Domination and stuff like that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem is that AYs were sterile. Hence, the search for a cure.... but see with a FF you can always make it a front for an Asari version of Cerberus where they're really working on unlocking true AY potential. Come on, you don't think that wouldn't exist in an empire as large and as old as theirs? Oh that's right. They're all strippers and dancers.... right.....

[Iakus]

Miranda was created from a cocktail of her father's genetic material and that of several women who were deemed worthy. Presumably the same would also have been true of Oriana.

 

My guess that genetically engineering designer babies like Miranda is considered unethical and probably illegal in Alliance or Council space. Assuming that is the case it would also probably be prohibitively expensive. Henry Lawson of course probably wasn't too concerned about laws or ethics and he is swimming in money, so neither would be barriers for him.

 

I'd guess that people like Miranda are fairly rare. It could be as well that the science isn't perfect and that there are still complications, if we can draw any conclusions from her infertility. 

Unethical, certainly, but likely not illegal.  Miranda is, after all, human.  Not, say, a human/salarian hybrid.  In addition, while she is enhanced in such aspects as strength, biotic ability, intelligence, and gluteal endowment, these are still features that can be found in humans.  She hasn't been given anything humanity is not capable of, like consuming dextro food, or seeing into the infrared spectum.  Everything she has seems to fall under "improvements in natural human abilities

[Treacherous J Slither]

The problem is that AYs were sterile. Hence, the search for a cure.... but see with a FF you can always make it a front for an Asari version of Cerberus where they're really working on unlocking true AY potential. Come on, you don't think that wouldn't exist in an empire as large and as old as theirs? Oh that's right. They're all strippers and dancers.... right.....

An immoral, pro asari domination shadow organization? NOW you're talking Julia! Write it up! Make it happen!

[Treacherous J Slither]

Unethical, certainly, but likely not illegal. Miranda is, after all, human. Not, say, a human/salarian hybrid. In addition, while she is enhanced in such aspects as strength, biotic ability, intelligence, and gluteal endowment, these are still features that can be found in humans. She hasn't been given anything humanity is not capable of, like consuming dextro food, or seeing into the infrared spectum. Everything she has seems to fall under "improvements in natural human abilities

What's funny about this is how would anyone know about it if the illegal changes were subtle?

Also I doubt many people in the Terminus systems are shakinf in their boots over any laws on anything so I imagine some real craziness goes on out there.

Imagine if someone creates a krogan that can breed like an asari?

/galaxy.

[Hedlum]

IIRC you are right mostly, only that the restrictions might be even harsher than simply "no tails and wings" - implied by the fact that "medi-gel" had to recieve a special permission because how useful and life-saving it was. (The line is that you can improve existing features in humans, not add new ones)

 

Is that even possible? We are talking here about Sci-Fi, so maybe.

 

But why would you need the psychological complications that having wings might cause you, when you can potentially fly better and easier in many other ways - Example: If a Biotic can lower his mass sufficiently, and use a small thruster and a wing-suit, he might be able to fly better than a human with biological wings.

 

And that's before mentioning actual jetpacks.

 

 

A jetpack would be be better, but it's not an issue of reasonable usefulness. If the ME usniverse is based of real life at all, the reason for the law would be to keep people from doing it simple because they could. I'm sure they(The Council, The Alliance, Other Governments, ect) put the law in place so they wouldn't have to deal with genetic cluster-**** that would probably cause in the long run. (That is if things like that would be passed on to offspring.)

 

The day to day technology they have in the MEU is not that much more advanced than we have today. Some of the weapons, like the UV lasers will be put on naval ships starting in a year or two. We have rail guns. The tech is here.

 

Genetics....

 

One would think that the Asari would have been doing genetic research on Ardat-Yakshi syndrome and been able to identify genetic markers in utero. And identify parents who carry the genetic marker. Why it seems to manifest only in pureblood matings. Corrective gene therapy should have been developed. A society as scientifically advanced as theirs should have had a cure having been exploring the stars for over 2000 years. I don't buy the religious taboo sh*t because few practice the Athame doctrine, and Siarism seems to be pretty loose. The Asari don't strike me as a very religious society. 

 

You know, my manager at work mentioned the idea he had about what if two Ardat-Yakshi 'mated' and didn't kill one another. Since they get more powerful when they kill someone, would the child of two create something similar to the Archon in Starcraft?

 

Miranda was created from a cocktail of her father's genetic material and that of several women who were deemed worthy. Presumably the same would also have been true of Oriana.

 

My guess that genetically engineering designer babies like Miranda is considered unethical and probably illegal in Alliance or Council space. Assuming that is the case it would also probably be prohibitively expensive. Henry Lawson of course probably wasn't too concerned about laws or ethics and he is swimming in money, so neither would be barriers for him.

 

I'd guess that people like Miranda are fairly rare. It could be as well that the science isn't perfect and that there are still complications, if we can draw any conclusions from her infertility. 

 

There's another thing I was wondering. Acording to the Mass Effect wiki in the Alliance:

The Systems Alliance is the representative body of Earth and all human colonies in Citadel space. Backed by Earth's most powerful nations, the Alliance has become humanity's military, exploratory, and economic spearhead.

 

So here's the thing. How much power does the Alliance actually have being the Representative of humanity to the alien species instead of a united single human government. Is it humanites boss and can impose it's will on human countries back on Earth? Or is it more like a secretary, acting as an intermediary between human governments and the Council? If the Alliance outlaws genetic engeneering, is all of humanity forced to comply? Or is the law only in effect to Alliance assets while individual governments can freely choose to follow the law or not? 

 

But if they can force governments to comply, whats to stop there from being a black market for it? Say a couple big into anime want their kids to have naturaly pink or green hair? If they do that, can the Alliance come in and for the offspring to have their hair color geneticaly engeneered back to a natural color? (Also, would that pink or green hair color be able to be passed on to those kids children? )

 

And on the issue of her infertility, we aren't told if it is or isn't caused by how she was made. Here's something someone told me when I asked them about it.

The thing about the canon benign neoplasm is that it's a problem that can be reversed with certain procedures even today and damage can be ultimately prevented if caught early enough. Which I'm sure Miranda Lawson, who always has a contingency plan and keen foresight, would catch early on. Because if the growth became big enough to cause permanent infertility, it'd be massively extensive and severely uncomfortable. Possibly even outright painful for someone physically active, and it would affect her cycle so she'd notice something was wrong. Once removed there would be scar tissue sure, but to think grafting and reparations haven't improved within the next 170 years is ludicrous hahah. Like you said, she brought a dead person that was little more than crust back to life. I think someone would definitely find something. XD

 

 

Unethical, certainly, but likely not illegal.  Miranda is, after all, human.  Not, say, a human/salarian hybrid.  In addition, while she is enhanced in such aspects as strength, biotic ability, intelligence, and gluteal endowment, these are still features that can be found in humans.  She hasn't been given anything humanity is not capable of, like consuming dextro food, or seeing into the infrared spectum.  Everything she has seems to fall under "improvements in natural human abilities

 

Here's a question I've been wondering. When does it cross the line of improving natural human abilities? Say for example you have a woman who, for whatever reason, wants to have (as in give birth to) tall, healthy children with blond hair and blue eyes.The issue is, none of these genetic traits are present in her or her significant other/sperm donor. Could this woman have several eggs geneticaly tailored for these traits not only to be present, but changed from recessive to dominant to assure success? If so, would these traits, now dominant rather then recessive, be passed on to those children, causing there to be a new strain of dominant blue eyed, blond haired traits to be present in the human gene pool?

[Iakus]

 

Here's a question I've been wondering. When does it cross the line of improving natural human abilities? Say for example you have a woman who, for whatever reason, wants to have (as in give birth to) tall, healthy children with blond hair and blue eyes.The issue is, none of these genetic traits are present in her or her significant other/sperm donor. Could this woman have several eggs geneticaly tailored for these traits not only to be present, but changed from recessive to dominant to assure success? If so, would these traits, now dominant rather then recessive, be passed on to those children, causing there to be a new strain of dominant blue eyed, blond haired traits to be present in the human gene pool?

My guess would be stuff like that would be permitted, as these are traits humans can have, as opposed to, say scales.

 

I mean, genetic engineering is freely used to remove undesirable genetic traits, such as myopia, or cystic fibrosis.  Altering height, hair color, etc would probably be doable, if someone's willing to pay for it.  And as long as it's within human possibility (probably no green-haired, orange-eyed fifteen foot tall kids)

[Vazgen]

Unethical, certainly, but likely not illegal.  Miranda is, after all, human.  Not, say, a human/salarian hybrid.  In addition, while she is enhanced in such aspects as strength, biotic ability, intelligence, and gluteal endowment, these are still features that can be found in humans.  She hasn't been given anything humanity is not capable of, like consuming dextro food, or seeing into the infrared spectum.  Everything she has seems to fall under "improvements in natural human abilities

IIRC, she states that she was created, not naturally born. I think that falls under the "creation of sapient life".

[Iakus]

IIRC, she states that she was created, not naturally born. I think that falls under the "creation of sapient life".

But what does "created" mean?  Gene therapies appear to be commonly performed in labs.  In fact, in utero treatments seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

I take "creation of sapient life" to mean creation of a new form of life.  A new, sapient species, much like the laws curtailing the creation of AIs. Miranda, however, is entirely human.

[Vazgen]

But what does "created" mean?  Gene therapies appear to be commonly performed in labs.  In fact, in utero treatments seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

I take "creation of sapient life" to mean creation of a new form of life.  A new, sapient species, much like the laws curtailing the creation of AIs. Miranda, however, is entirely human.

I'm not so sure. Creating a new human in a lab... Isn't cloning a "creation of sapient life"? Should it also be allowed because it creates a person of a same race? Cloning is a thing in ME Universe, but I'm not sure about how well it's received. Salarians cloned kakliosaurus for the war effort. But Shepard and his squadmates are quite surprised about a clone in Citadel DLC. 

[Iakus]

I'm not so sure. Creating a new human in a lab... Isn't cloning a "creation of sapient life"? Should it also be allowed because it creates a person of a same race? Cloning is a thing in ME Universe, but I'm not sure about how well it's received. Salarians cloned kakliosaurus for the war effort. But Shepard and his squadmates are quite surprised about a clone in Citadel DLC. 

But one of the first things Shepard asks Jacob when they first meet was something along the lines of "Am I a clone?", so the possibility is out there that cloning a person is possible.  ANd in fact, if you can tinker with the genes of a person to add or remove features, is outright cloning going to raise eyebrows?  

[Vazgen]

But one of the first things Shepard asks Jacob when they first meet was something along the lines of "Am I a clone?", so the possibility is out there that cloning a person is possible.  ANd in fact, if you can tinker with the genes of a person to add or remove features, is outright cloning going to raise eyebrows?  

Thing is, outright cloning can possibly create a whole bunch of security, political and ethical issues. When I think of cloning, I always remember the Sixth Day and all the problems raised there. There are no such problems with adding or removing features for one person. 

Like I said, cloning is certainly possible in ME universe, Citadel DLC and kakliosaurus fossil quests are clear examples. But I think that while the technology is there, creating clones falls under the "creation of sapient life" and thus is banned. The kakliosaurus quest is an exception, because 1) these are animals and 2) they are required to fight the Reapers. 

[Iakus]

Thing is, outright cloning can possibly create a whole bunch of security, political and ethical issues. When I think of cloning, I always remember the Sixth Day and all the problems raised there. There are no such problems with adding or removing features for one person. 

Like I said, cloning is certainly possible in ME universe, Citadel DLC and kakliosaurus fossil quests are clear examples. But I think that while the technology is there, creating clones falls under the "creation of sapient life" and thus is banned. The kakliosaurus quest is an exception, because 1) these are animals and 2) they are required to fight the Reapers. 

 

But isn't in vitro fertilization "creation of sapient life"?  Or heck, the good old fashioned way of reproducing  ?  Identical twins are a sort of cloning, after all.

 

I agree that cloning certainly created ethical concerns, and is likely frowned upon.  And there are likely security concerns too, but we see security methods that seem designed to defeat them.  Such as requiring fingerprint identification and spoken passwords as well as DNA as security identification (as fingerprints are not genetic)  And at least some genetic screening seems able to tell the difference between a clone and the original, as Bailey was utterly confident that Shepard was Shepard in ME2 despite the whole being dead thing.  

 

In addition, clones don't share the memories of the originals (which should have been Shepard's first clue about not being a clone, as well as one of the Lazarus Project's big stumbling blocks)  Along with not knowing passwords, a clone's memories would be their own, not the original's.  Just as Oriana is an individual despite being Miranda's clone (or clones from the same source material, not sure about that)

[Vazgen]

But isn't in vitro fertilization "creation of sapient life"?  Or heck, the good old fashioned way of reproducing  ?  Identical twins are a sort of cloning, after all.

 

I agree that cloning certainly created ethical concerns, and is likely frowned upon.  And there are likely security concerns too, but we see security methods that seem designed to defeat them.  Such as requiring fingerprint identification and spoken passwords as well as DNA as security identification (as fingerprints are not genetic)  And at least some genetic screening seems able to tell the difference between a clone and the original, as Bailey was utterly confident that Shepard was Shepard in ME2 despite the whole being dead thing.  

 

In addition, clones don't share the memories of the originals (which should have been Shepard's first clue about not being a clone, as well as one of the Lazarus Project's big stumbling blocks)  Along with not knowing passwords, a clone's memories would be their own, not the original's.  Just as Oriana is an individual despite being Miranda's clone (or clones from the same source material, not sure about that)

IIRC, clones share DNA and fingerprints with the originals. Bailey's screening would not have worked against the clone. If I'm not mistaken it is even mentioned in Citadel DLC when systems perceive the clone as Shepard and grant him access to the desired information. What he was missing were the authorization codes (the memories he did not possess as you've mentioned) and those were obtained when Shepard hacked that door. 

As I understood from Miranda's explanation she did not have a biological mother, she was grown in a lab with constant adjustments made along the way. I think that's what "creation of sapient life" refers to. I'm not sure if vitro fertilization allows the same capability for adjustments. In some sense, Miranda is similar to medi-gel. 

Also, the codex states that improvement of natural human abilities is fine, but biotics are not a natural human ability. They are a result of in-utero exposure to Element Zero and I wouldn't call it natural. 

[Iakus]

IIRC, clones share DNA and fingerprints with the originals. Bailey's screening would not have worked against the clone. If I'm not mistaken it is even mentioned in Citadel DLC when systems perceive the clone as Shepard and grant him access to the desired information. What he was missing were the authorization codes (the memories he did not possess as you've mentioned) and those were obtained when Shepard hacked that door. 

As I understood from Miranda's explanation she did not have a biological mother, she was grown in a lab with constant adjustments made along the way. I think that's what "creation of sapient life" refers to. I'm not sure if vitro fertilization allows the same capability for adjustments. In some sense, Miranda is similar to medi-gel. 

Also, the codex states that improvement of natural human abilities is fine, but biotics are not a natural human ability. They are a result of in-utero exposure to Element Zero and I wouldn't call it natural. 

Actually, of all the squishy science in the Mass Effect trilogy, they did get one thing right:  clones would not share the same fingerprints with the original.  They are truly unique features.  The clones needed the codes and the fingerprints (thus why they were switched out).

 

And I imagine in vitro fertilization does allow for adjustments.  It seems to be easier that way than in utero.

 

Biotics seem to be something humanity does not yet fully understand.  But it does seem to be accepted as "natural" given how many species have trained biotics.

[Vazgen]

Actually, of all the squishy science in the Mass Effect trilogy, they did get one thing right:  clones would not share the same fingerprints with the original.  They are truly unique features.  The clones needed the codes and the fingerprints (thus why they were switched out).

 

And I imagine in vitro fertilization does allow for adjustments.  It seems to be easier that way than in utero.

 

Biotics seem to be something humanity does not yet fully understand.  But it does seem to be accepted as "natural" given how many species have trained biotics.

Oh, OK. I vaguely remember clone Shepard altering some records in the archives, those were the fingerprints, right?

 

Biotics are not a natural human trait. They develop if the child was exposed to Element Zero in-utero and developed eezo nodules in his/her organism.  In extremely rare cases, humans who were exposed in utero but did not manifest biotic talents as children can develop them during young adulthood through additional exposure. If there was no exposure to Element Zero, the child would not be a biotic, thus it is not a natural human trait.