384 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

If the time-travel effect was isolated within Redcliffe, and that was the real Fiona in Val Royeaux... wouldn't that have created another simultaneously-existing Fiona?

[Exaltation]

It could be isolated on Fiona only,she goes back to Redcliffe before the Inquisition,Alexius catches her and does the time travel Magic.

[Digger1967]

Because it's more than just taking your face and walking away with it - Envy must first learn who you are, so it can replicate your perfect image. In the "bad ending" slide, it's clear no one ever figured out "you" were a demon, they just thought you'd gone mad with power and corrupted the Inquisition to your whims. It's not just looking like you, it has to be you.

Both Envy and Cole explain all this to you throughout the quest. Envy is testing you with those images not to scare you into submission, but to observe how you react to them, so it can learn from those reactions the things you're refusing to tell it about yourself.

Ok, but that doesn't line up with him being able to take the Lord Seekers form just Willy nilly. See the storyline issue here?

[riverbanks]

Ok, but that doesn't line up with him being able to take the Lord Seekers form just Willy nilly. See the storyline issue here?

 

It doesn't take Lucius overnight. Lucius' codex entry mentions that he used to be fairly moderate, and the Templars noticed his change in behaviour over an extended period of time since Lambert's death. This was the time it took for Envy to learn him, take his form and start acting so strangely from his previous stances that even the lower ranking Templars Knights noticed the change.

[Digger1967]

It doesn't take Lucius overnight. Lucius' codex entry mentions that he used to be fairly moderate, and the Templars noticed his change in behaviour over an extended period of time since Lambert's death. This was the time it took for Envy to learn him, take his form and start acting so strangely from his previous stances that even the lower ranking Templars Knights noticed the change.

Well I guess my issue here is he shouldn't be able to take him at all, at least not against his will since he's a seeker and supposedly immune. Seems like a really fine bit of hair splitting is needed to get this to work at all

[Amne YA]

Well I guess my issue here is he shouldn't be able to take him at all, at least not against his will since he's a seeker and supposedly immune. Seems like a really fine bit of hair splitting is needed to get this to work at all

kick his ass  in Casandra perso quest 

[Ashagar]

Well I guess my issue here is he shouldn't be able to take him at all, at least not against his will since he's a seeker and supposedly immune. Seems like a really fine bit of hair splitting is needed to get this to work at all

 

He was only taking the lord seeker's form not possessing him which would indeed be impossible. The codex on envy shows how envy will usually kidnap a victim study them and then leave them to take their life while the victim is left to rot wherever they were imprisoned by the demon.

 

However in this case the Lord Seeker let the envy demon study him and his cohorts made sure to murder any surviving high ranking Templars like the Knight-Vigilant who would be able to see though envy' false form.
 

[Ynqve]

The way I see it Fiona's mind control is a more subtle form. I believe that the meeting in Val Royeaux took place, that Alexius used time travel to show up in Redcliffe between Val Royeaux and your arrival in Redcliffe and that they used some kind of magic to slowly influence Fiona. It would explain why she allowed Alexius to kick Teagan out and why she's acting all confused when you meet her in the tavern. And many of the mages  in Redcliffe mentions that she's acting strange and irrational. She's responsible for selling the mages into slavery but not for attacking Haven when you side with the Templars. 

 

But what the hell, I could be completely wrong. It's just a theory and I prefer it to her hitting her head with the Idiot Ball one too many times. I refuse to believe that a character could be that stupid. 

[phaonica]

My issue with Fiona being MC in Redcliffe is that Bio's writers usually throw out hints or outright state that someone was being brainwashed. If Fiona was being controlled Solas or Cass not noticing it is bizarre. Shouldn't a powerful BM spell that's not sensed by an ancient elf mage, and a veteran seeker be worth mentioning? Another missed oppurtunity is the absence of any references about Fiona or Alexius in relations to Cory's prototype control spell during " Under Her Skin".

 

That's one of my issues with it, too. It hard for me to believe that if blood magic manipulation was actually involved that NO ONE specifically suggests the possibility. Not Dorian, not Cassandra, not Solas. No one.

 

It's like if someone wanted to argue that the Tevinter bloodmage in DAO COULD have mind controlled Loghain into selling the elves to him, so you should definitely consider that when you're making your judgments about him. I don't know if I can get behind that.

[Digger1967]

kick his ass  in Casandra perso quest 

 

I have, and honestly I'd really wished they'd put a little more of that effort into the final battle with Cory.  After that cut scene with they dying seeker it felt good to take the twisted SOB out.  It was personal.  With Cory?  Eh.. not so much.  Bad guy, boss fight, the end.   Nothing really personal about it at all.

[Colonelkillabee]

The way I see it Fiona's mind control is a more subtle form. I believe that the meeting in Val Royeaux took place, that Alexius used time travel to show up in Redcliffe between Val Royeaux and your arrival in Redcliffe and that they used some kind of magic to slowly influence Fiona. It would explain why she allowed Alexius to kick Teagan out and why she's acting all confused when you meet her in the tavern. And many of the mages  in Redcliffe mentions that she's acting strange and irrational. She's responsible for selling the mages into slavery but not for attacking Haven when you side with the Templars. 

 

But what the hell, I could be completely wrong. It's just a theory and I prefer it to her hitting her head with the Idiot Ball one too many times. I refuse to believe that a character could be that stupid. 

 

Agreed with all of it.

[Digger1967]

That's one of my issues with it, too. It hard for me to believe that if blood magic manipulation was actually involved that NO ONE specifically suggests the possibility. Not Dorian, not Cassandra, not Solas. No one.

 

It's like if someone wanted to argue that the Tevinter bloodmage in DAO COULD have mind controlled Loghain into selling the elves to him, so you should definitely consider that when you're making your judgments about him. I don't know if I can get behind that.

 

Well the problem I have is that without some sort of mental manipulation the whole thing just really doesn't make sense.  The rebel mages realy don't stand to gain much of any real value from signing on with Alexius.  I mean I get that a lot of folks seem to have this real hate-hate thing when it comes to Fiona, I guess based on stuff from previous games (which I haven't played, btw) but without something there to explain this really bad decision it just really doesn't track for me t least.

 

Granted there isn't any official source I know of, and it may not have been the writers original intent that some form of magical influence was used to convince Fiona and her compatriots to sign this fools bargain, but it's pretty much the only thing that works for me story wise.  Otherwise I have to accept that Fiona somehow managed to become a Grey Warden, a Grand Enchanter and eventually leader of the mage rebellion even though she really shouldn't be allowed to tie her own shoes.  

 

It just won't really line up any other way. Pretty much the same for Wardens really - I have to accept the notion that Cory was able to influence their decisions even before the blood magic ritual that gave him total control of their mages.  Otherwise it just makes no sense.  Not so much out and out total control, but the ability to convince them that a decision that they would normally consider completely unreasonable may be reasonable after all.

 

Otherwise i have to accept the notion that somehow their leaders rose through the ranks of the Wardens, had all this experience with fighting evil in the form of darkspawn and then suddenly woke up one morning and said,huh.. ya, blood magic.  That's the ticket.  i mean I get they are trying to stop the blight and all, but you'd have to be the biggest idiot that every walked the earth to fall for the whole notion that allowing yourself to be possessed by a demon through the use of blood magic is a great plan.  I mean seriously - it never dawned on any of them that being possessed by demons might not be such a great idea?  And they are wardens?  Did they all go to work that morning on the special bus?  

 

So either the people of Thedas choose the dumbest, most incompetent individuals they can find to put in charge and then follow them with total blind devotion no matter how moronic what they are suggesting might be, or there must be something else going on behind the scenes to explain what any reasonable person would conclude is utter lunacy.

 

So I realize a lot of folks want some sort of official thing from the holy mountain on this one before they can support the notion, me I'm the other way around.  I have to put in these elements into the story to have it track and make sense.  Otherwise the story breaks, and the game becomes far less enjoyable because without some explanation for this behavior it just doesn't work.  

[Digger1967]

The way I see it Fiona's mind control is a more subtle form. I believe that the meeting in Val Royeaux took place, that Alexius used time travel to show up in Redcliffe between Val Royeaux and your arrival in Redcliffe and that they used some kind of magic to slowly influence Fiona. It would explain why she allowed Alexius to kick Teagan out and why she's acting all confused when you meet her in the tavern. And many of the mages  in Redcliffe mentions that she's acting strange and irrational. She's responsible for selling the mages into slavery but not for attacking Haven when you side with the Templars. 

 

But what the hell, I could be completely wrong. It's just a theory and I prefer it to her hitting her head with the Idiot Ball one too many times. I refuse to believe that a character could be that stupid. 

 

I really like that one to be honest, it resolves a lot of the problems caused by the silly time travel BS, explains how it is that you and your companions all remember the meeting in Val Royeaux but she doesn't, explains her obvious confusion and gives a good explanation of how the rest of the events transpire.

 

Not sure if that will turn out to be the official explanation at some point, but I'd be hard pressed to imagine someone coming up with something better to tie it all together and have it all make sense.

[phaonica]

I have to put in these elements into the story to have it track and make sense.  Otherwise the story breaks, and the game becomes far less enjoyable because without some explanation for this behavior it just doesn't work.

I think that if you're having to resort to mind control plots to manipulate the story into having any sense, then IMO, that's evidence of a shallow, poorly-constructed conflict, especially given that Bioware has a precedent of attempting to tackle far more complex problems than that. To me, it is preferable and sufficiently believable that people in power would make bad decisions. Everyone I know IRL has stories about "how did this moron become the supervisor" and similar stories.

[Master Warder Z_]

Even an envy demon has standards.

They actually do.

It has to interest then at the very least.

[Eliastion]

I don't think thinking too much about the time-traveling thing is a good idea. Frankly, it wasn't handled too well. As in: it makes no sense whether you try to localize it in Redcliffe or anywhere else. Basically, it's like this time-travel effect managed to affect anything not being Inquisition (since not only your party members but advisors too seem unaffected)...
It's a mess. It's hard to do time travel so that it makes sense and Bioware simply failed there.

[Amne YA]

If you want the story to make sence
stupidity > blood magic
cause explaining every thing with mind control is Just realy not creative

[Ynqve]

If you want the story to make sence
stupidity > blood magic
cause explaining every thing with mind control is Just realy not creative

 

Yes because Fiona having the IQ of plankton makes totally more sense and is so much more plausible than Tevinter mages using blood magic to get their way. How silly of me for thinking otherwise. 

 

You know what I think is stupid? Ignoring parts of the story and evidence supporting the use of blood magic/magical manipulation just because of your blind hatred of a character. Fiona is an incompetent leader who makes shitty decisions, and it is her incompetence that allow them to control her. The fact that she's manipulated doesn't excuse her or make her intelligent, it does however explain the plot holes that you lot can't fill.

[Catche Jagger]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The time travel was stupid. A lot of parts of In Hushed Whispers were stupid.

Part of this is the difficulty of presenting the mages as victims while also creating a conflict. Do reach this end, they decided to have Fiona act like a complete moron and hand wave it as "Probably some magic crap, I dunno." It's nice to see Fiona finally get her piece of humble pie, but this was just poor storytelling.

[Amne YA]

Yes because Fiona having the IQ of plankton makes totally more sense and is so much more plausible than Tevinter mages using blood magic to get their way. How silly of me for thinking otherwise.

You know what I think is stupid? Ignoring parts of the story and evidence supporting the use of blood magic/magical manipulation just because of your blind hatred of a character. Fiona is an incompetent leader who makes shitty decisions, and it is her incompetence that allow them to control her. The fact that she's manipulated doesn't excuse her or make her intelligent, it does however explain the plot holes that you lot can't fill.

if my hate blind me like you say .. your love for a silly caractère blind you too
cause thr game doesn't give any evidence of any sort of blood magic and mind control
only time magic was in the game . Stop making theory based on your personnal perspective

[Ynqve]

if my hate blind me like you say .. your love for a silly caractère blind you too
cause thr game doesn't give any evidence of any sort of blood magic and mind control
only time magic was in the game . Stop making theory based on your personnal perspective

 

Lol, I don't even like Fiona. But there is support for magical manipulation. Her irrational actions, her general confusion, comments from the devs, the guide book apparently has stuff on it, the fact that Tevinter mages are known for using forbidden arts, the fact that Corypheus is not above using mind control to get his way etc. 

 

Until you come up with a more reasonable explanation that isn't "I HATE FIONA SHE'S SO STUPID!!!!!111!!!" I'm just going to stick with my theory. 

[NasChoka]

Part of this is the difficulty of presenting the mages as victims while also creating a conflict. Do reach this end, they decided to have Fiona act like a complete moron and hand wave it as "Probably some magic crap, I dunno." It's nice to see Fiona finally get her piece of humble pie, but this was just poor storytelling.

Yes the mages (and also the grey wardens) had to act really stupid in DAI to create a conflict.

[Amne YA]

Lol, I don't even like Fiona. But there is support for magical manipulation. Her irrational actions, her general confusion, comments from the devs, the guide book apparently has stuff on it, the fact that Tevinter mages are known for using forbidden arts, the fact that Corypheus is not above using mind control to get his way etc.

Until you come up with a more reasonable explanation that isn't "I HATE FIONA SHE'S SO STUPID!!!!!111!!!" I'm just going to stick with my theory.

well if you read the topic from the beginning you will find more than 10 argument by more than 10 people proving that their is no codes entry no dialog or no bioware post about any manupulation or blood magic and the time trick was the only thing used but if you don't wanna read all that just stick with your theory . Cause i don't care i try to make people see things beyond what they want to see but if they want to stick woth what they want good for them

[Ynqve]

well if you read the topic from the beginning you will find more than 10 argument by more than 10 people proving that their is no codes entry no dialog or no bioware post about any manupulation or blood magic and the time trick was the only thing used but if you don't wanna read all that just stick with your theory . Cause i don't care i try to make people see things beyond what they want to see but if they want to stick woth what they want good for them

 

No, what you are doing is cherry picking and misinterpreting things in order to turn your opinion into fact. Maybe things get lost in translation, maybe you're just delusional. I have read the whole thread, and your arguments are basically "I hate Fiona and everyone who disagrees with me is stupid". Unless Fiona got lobotomized after Asunder I really can't see any reason why she wouldn't protest to Teagan getting kicked out of Redcliffe or when the Venatori decided to murder the Tranquil. or why she wouldn't remember the Inquisitor or why almost everyone in Redcliffe is noticing her strange behavior. Fiona isn't the brightest crayon in the box, but she's not docile and she's always been opinionated. What happened to her in Redcliffe isn't so much holding the idiot ball as it is getting a completely different personality. And if you ally with the mages she's back to her stupid but opinionated self again. So please, explain to me again how mental manipulation is completely unreasonable.