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why Fiona ; Why?


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#276
Amne YA

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No, what you are doing is cherry picking and misinterpreting things in order to turn your opinion into fact. Maybe things get lost in translation, maybe you're just delusional. I have read the whole thread, and your arguments are basically "I hate Fiona and everyone who disagrees with me is stupid". Unless Fiona got lobotomized after Asunder I really can't see any reason why she wouldn't protest to Teagan getting kicked out of Redcliffe or when the Venatori decided to murder the Tranquil. or why she wouldn't remember the Inquisitor or why almost everyone in Redcliffe is noticing her strange behavior. Fiona isn't the brightest crayon in the box, but she's not docile and she's always been opinionated. What happened to her in Redcliffe isn't so much holding the idiot ball as it is getting a completely different personality. And if you ally with the mages she's back to her stupid but opinionated self again. So please, explain to me again how mental manipulation is completely unreasonable.

well if you say that i hate fiona it mean you didn't understand the topoc from the beginning
no need to continue the discussion then

#277
Catche Jagger

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Yes the mages (and also the grey wardens) had to act really stupid in DAI to create a conflict.


Well, they didn't have to act stupid, that's simply the path the story took.

Fiona could have been overthrown by a group of unscrupulous mages who were tired of the war taking so long and chose to side with Tevinter so they could finally defeat the templars. Then the Inquisition would have to help Fiona take back control of the rebellion.

Instead we got Fiona acting like a confused child for pretty much the entire quest.
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#278
Amne YA

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Finally some one understand what we are discussing here . We are discussing Bioware creation of story is always explained by stupidity or mindcontrol/blood magic .
wardens control -> blood magic via symoning demons
mage control -> stupidity of their leader fiona
Templar control -> mind cotrol via red lyrium

#279
Lady Artifice

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I've said it before and I'll say it again: The time travel was stupid. A lot of parts of In Hushed Whispers were stupid.

Part of this is the difficulty of presenting the mages as victims while also creating a conflict. Do reach this end, they decided to have Fiona act like a complete moron and hand wave it as "Probably some magic crap, I dunno." It's nice to see Fiona finally get her piece of humble pie, but this was just poor storytelling.

 

They've been inconsistent about this since DA2, wavering back and forth between focusing on the persecution of Mages and presenting this conflict as some kind struggle between two opposing evils. 

 

Part of that can be reasonably explained by the effort to make it a nuanced conflict, and avoiding black and white morality, but part of it is just an effort to make everything seem like an equally valid course of action. 

 

Well, if every course of action is equally valid...Oh hello, my growing sense of apathy. Nice seeing you again.



#280
Krypplingz

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TL:DR  (For those who don't want to read the massive wall of text beneath the spoiler. I have been reading the thread :3)

Personally I don't think it was such a stupid plan. We know that these Tevinters are the bad guys, because it's a story and these are obviously the villain types. But even villains can be sympathetic, understanding and comforting.

I just see it as a bad decision under made under a lot of pressure.

---

Spoiler


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#281
NasChoka

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Well, they didn't have to act stupid, that's simply the path the story took.

Fiona could have been overthrown by a group of unscrupulous mages who were tired of the war taking so long and chose to side with Tevinter so they could finally defeat the templars. Then the Inquisition would have to help Fiona take back control of the rebellion.

Instead we got Fiona acting like a confused child for pretty much the entire quest.

I would have liked your version better. I guess to create a situation where you regret helping mages and are in a position to decide over their fate it was easier to let her act this way.



#282
Catche Jagger

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They've been inconsistent about this since DA2, wavering back and forth between focusing on the persecution of Mages and presenting this conflict as some kind struggle between two opposing evils. 

 

Part of that can be reasonably explained by the effort to make it a nuanced conflict, and avoiding black and white morality, but part of it is just an effort to make everything seem like an equally valid course of action. 

 

Well, if every course of action is equally valid...Oh hello, my growing sense of apathy. Nice seeing you again.

 

Well, the main issue is that they tend to avoid characterizing the mages in a hostile or selfish light. The pro to siding with them is that you are supporting a group of people who are often presented as being oppressed and the con seems to be that they are a bunch of unstable idiots. The same thing happened in DA2 where basically every mage turned to blood magic and then immediately became a psychotic murderer. Instead of acting like adult beings who are confronted with a difficult situation, they behave like children, unable to manage themselves.

 

One could make the argument more nuanced by simply showing some mages abusing their powers, hurting others, not because they are psychotic blood mages, but because they are selfish.

 

There are similar issues with the templar side too, however. We are constantly informed of how the templars are supposed to be these great keepers of order, but aside from DAI and bits in DAO, they tended toward basically wanting to kill all the mages(they came across as almost purely corrupt abusers in DA2). This is why, despite being pro-templar based on the lore, I only actually sided with the templars in DAI. When presented with the choice of "kill everyone" and "side with some possibly dangerous individuals" I will pick the latter.

 

They really needed to paint a more consistent image of the conflict. It could have been very compelling if they did. Instead, many parts of what we did get fell flat, making it very difficult to make a fair judgement on which side of the debate to take.


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#283
Hanako Ikezawa

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I have a request for the people saying that it is a fact that the Mages joined willingly: provide evidence to support your assertion. Clearly there must be loads of it if you are so certain it is what you think. 



#284
Catche Jagger

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I would have liked your version better. I guess to create a situation where you regret helping mages and are in a position to decide over their fate it was easier to let her act this way.

Well, even in my version, Fiona could accept the blame for the actions of the other mages as she was supposed to be their leader and and turn the rebellion over to the Inquisition, as it had fallen apart to the point where she could no longer keep control. The Inquisitor can say that the rebellion was just and support its continued existence or they could send them back to the Circles.

I have a request for the people saying that it is a fact that the Mages joined willingly: provide evidence to support your assertion. Clearly there must be loads of it if you are so certain it is what you think.


I don't personally believe that the alliance was entirely willing, but the burden of proof does no lie with those who say that the alliance was willing. Logic dictates that most alliances are willing and it is therefore safe to assume that the alliance with the Venatori was willing unless otherwise stated. The people claiming they were brainwashed are the ones making the claim that goes outside conventional logic and are therefore the ones who should back up such a statement (or at the very least, it is more imperative that they do so).
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#285
Amne YA

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I have a request for the people saying that it is a fact that the Mages joined willingly: provide evidence to support your assertion. Clearly there must be loads of it if you are so certain it is what you think.

the same could be said about people that say they didn t join willingly . And please no theory or opinion codex entry or npc dialogue

#286
The Baconer

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I don't personally believe that the alliance was entirely willing, but the burden of proof does no lie with those who say that the alliance was willing. Logic dictates that most alliances are willing and it is therefore safe to assume that the alliance with the Venatori was willing unless otherwise stated.

 

It's not an alliance.

 

We have Connor, and the elf mage who openly speak against the arrangement with Tevinter. Fiona herself is also imprisoned in the future, which suggests some sort of insubordination. If Champions of the Just is completed, Dorian states that the mages who didn't go along with the Venatori were killed if they didn't escape.


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#287
Ynqve

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the same could be said about people that say they didn t join willingly . And please no theory or opinion codex entry or npc dialogue

 

Please don't mention any of the evidence. wtf? 

 

If we can't mention codex entries, dialogue or our interpretations of what happened then what the hell can we mention?


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#288
Boost32

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It's not an alliance.
 
We have Connor, and the elf mage who openly speak against the arrangement with Tevinter. Fiona herself is also imprisoned in the future, which suggests some sort of insubordination. If Champions of the Just is completed, Dorian states that the mages who didn't go along with the Venatori were killed if they didn't escape.

Dorian said the ones who didn't join the Venatori either fled or were killed, so we can say they joined the Venatori on their own free will.

#289
Steelcan

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I have a request for the people saying that it is a fact that the Mages joined willingly: provide evidence to support your assertion. Clearly there must be loads of it if you are so certain it is what you think. 

they joined willingly*

 

 

*terms and conditions may apply



#290
The Baconer

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Dorian said the ones who didn't join the Venatori either fled or were killed, so we can say they joined the Venatori on their own free will.

 

Under pain of death, yeah.

 

So, like, the Qunari version of free will.



#291
Boost32

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Please don't mention any of the evidence.
 
If we can't mention codex entries, dialogue or our interpretations of what happened then what the hell can we mention?

I think he wanted to say no theory or opinion, only codex or NPC dialogue

#292
Ynqve

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I think he wanted to say no theory or opinion, only codex or NPC dialogue

 

Well it's not what he wrote. 



#293
Boost32

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Under pain of death, yeah.
 
So, like, the Qunari version of free will.

I agree with you, I think I worded poorly, but the dialogue with iron bull didn't mention any kind mind control.

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really
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#294
phaonica

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It's not an alliance.
 
We have Connor, and the elf mage who openly speak against the arrangement with Tevinter. Fiona herself is also imprisoned in the future, which suggests some sort of insubordination. If Champions of the Just is completed, Dorian states that the mages who didn't go along with the Venatori were killed if they didn't escape.


I don't think that Catche Jagger was suggesting that this "alliance" didn't involve duress. S/he was making a point that, in general, if someone wants to claim that things aren't as they appear of the surface, then the person making that claim would have to be the one to offer up some kind of evidence.

Many of us seem to agree that there was probably duress involved.


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#295
Catche Jagger

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I don't think that Catche Jagger was suggesting that this "alliance" didn't involve duress. S/he was making a point that, in general, if someone wants to claim that things aren't as they appear of the surface, than the person making that claim would have to be the one to offer up some kind of evidence.

Many of us seem to agree that there was probably duress involved.


Thank you, this is the point I was trying to make.

I actually said that I didn't think it was entirely willing in my post. I always felt that the mages accepted some aid out of necessity, but this "aid" was, of course, a lie which landed them in virtual slavery.
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#296
Amne YA

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And that's why kids you should never make alliance with Tiventer magister .

#297
Digger1967

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I think that if you're having to resort to mind control plots to manipulate the story into having any sense, then IMO, that's evidence of a shallow, poorly-constructed conflict, especially given that Bioware has a precedent of attempting to tackle far more complex problems than that. To me, it is preferable and sufficiently believable that people in power would make bad decisions. Everyone I know IRL has stories about "how did this moron become the supervisor" and similar stories.

Bad decisions happen, sure. Completely idiotic ones that make zero sense? Eh, not so much.

So I'm kind of stuck here from a story standpoint, I either fix the mess so that it doesn't contradict or it lessens the story
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#298
phaonica

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So, here's the thing. I wrote "most of us seem to agree that there was probably duress involved", but that might not be a good assumption for me to have in the discussion.

If no duress (threats, blackmail, bloodmagic) was involved, that would seem to mean that both Fiona and a significant number of mages trusted the Tevinters enough to agree that Haven should be attacked. Either they knew they were being lied to and taken advantage of and preferred that option to losing to the templars; or they didn't realize what they were getting into and ended up trapped. In this scenario, Fiona and the Mages bear a significant portion of the blame for their actions, imo.

If duress was involved (threats, blackmail, bloodmagic), and I can assume that Fiona would otherwise have NOT sided with the Tevinters if it had not existed, then Fiona bears significantly less blame because she would NOT have done what she did if she hadn't been effectively forced. Apparently mages that didn't join the Venatori were killed, so there is a suggestion that duress was involved in recruiting the mages, even if the same threat may not have been made specifically against Fiona.

So we have *some* evidence of the mages being coerced, but as far as I can tell that coercion entails threat of death, but no evidence of blackmail or bloodmagic.

#299
Barquiel

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The problem is that Cory doesn't exactly try to hide in Haven...and there isn't a single mage who tries to surrender or change sides. The alliance with Tevinter makes some sense...but I have a hard time believing that hundreds of mages are willing to fight to the death for some meglamonical darkspawn magister.



#300
Digger1967

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So, here's the thing. I wrote "most of us seem to agree that there was probably duress involved", but that might not be a good assumption for me to have in the discussion.

If no duress (threats, blackmail, bloodmagic) was involved, that would seem to mean that both Fiona and a significant number of mages trusted the Tevinters enough to agree that Haven should be attacked. Either they knew they were being lied to and taken advantage of and preferred that option to losing to the templars; or they didn't realize what they were getting into and ended up trapped. In this scenario, Fiona and the Mages bear a significant portion of the blame for their actions, imo.

If duress was involved (threats, blackmail, bloodmagic), and I can assume that Fiona would otherwise have NOT sided with the Tevinters if it had not existed, then Fiona bears significantly less blame because she would NOT have done what she did if she hadn't been effectively forced. Apparently mages that didn't join the Venatori were killed, so there is a suggestion that duress was involved in recruiting the mages, even if the same threat may not have been made specifically against Fiona.

So we have *some* evidence of the mages being coerced, but as far as I can tell that coercion entails threat of death, but no evidence of blackmail or bloodmagic.


Right, but you need to back up a step and ask why they would agree to this alliance in the first place.

Let's face it, Alexius really has virtually nothing to offer here.
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