The problem is that Cory doesn't exactly try to hide in Haven...and there isn't a single mage who tries to surrender or change sides. The alliance with Tevinter makes some sense...but I have a hard time believing that hundreds of mages are willing to fight to the death for some meglamonical darkspawn magister.
I don't find it that unbelievable when the alternative is to be turned into a fine pink mist
The problem is that Cory doesn't exactly try to hide in Haven...and there isn't a single mage who tries to surrender or change sides. The alliance with Tevinter makes some sense...but I have a hard time believing that hundreds of mages are willing to fight to the death for some meglamonical darkspawn magister.
Right, but you need to back up a step and ask why they would agree to this alliance in the first place.
Let's face it, Alexius really has virtually nothing to offer here.
From your second statement about Alexius having nothing to offer, your first statement seems actually be asking the question "why would they agree to this alliance in the first place *if coercion wasn't a factor*?"
For now, all I can offer is the same thing I said before. Either they knew they were being lied to and taken advantage of and preferred that option to losing to the templars; or they didn't realize what they were getting into and ended up trapped. Either way, they figured they were better off with the Tevinters than without.
You seem to think that there is no logical reason why the mages would think that they were better off in an alliance with the Tevinters. You seem to think that the idea that so many people making the same illogical mistake is not believable.
To me, it's believable. It's not necessarily compelling, and I'm not even trying to claim that it did or didn't happen that way. But I can definitely believe that, under the right circumstances, a large group of people could be convinced (without coercion) to do something ... profoundly unwise or even self-harming.
Bad decisions happen, sure. Completely idiotic ones that make zero sense? Eh, not so much.
So I'm kind of stuck here from a story standpoint, I either fix the mess so that it doesn't contradict or it lessens the story
You don't think there is any conceivable way that the mages could have been threatened, intimidated, or otherwise coerced (that is, other than blood magic) into attacking Haven?
The mages? Yes
Fiona? No.
Fiona serving a Magister-turned-Darkspawn when she suffered under the weight of nobility, her people have historically been oppressed by Tevinter, she broke away from the Circle because she viewed it as slavery (worse even then the sex slave status she endured years ago), and was once a Grey Warden.... I don't see her going along with it.
I see her choosing to die on her feet then live on her knees.
That said while I think the MC aspect is possible I don't care for it much either. But I'm gonna make a post about how I rationalize all the events of the Mages going to Cory's side, in a little bit.
She sold herself and the others mages to Tevinter when the templars stated to win the war, so she submiting to Corypheus is very plausibleI see her choosing to die on her feet then live on her knees.
The mages? Yes
Fiona? No.
Fiona serving a Magister-turned-Darkspawn when she suffered under the weight of nobility, her people have historically been oppressed by Tevinter, she broke away from the Circle because she viewed it as slavery (worse even then the sex slave status she endured years ago), and was once a Grey Warden.... I don't see her going along with it.
I see her choosing to die on her feet then live on her knees.
That said while I think the MC aspect is possible I don't care for it much either. But I'm gonna make a post about how I rationalize all the events of the Mages going to Cory's side, in a little bit.
In tiventer people with magic are not slaves . They take higher status than normal people
In tiventer people with magic are not slaves . They take higher status than normal people
There are mages slaves in Tevinter, Calpernia was one until Corypheus freed her.
I know but they like peopLe with magic.
so a slave mage will be better traited than a normal non-slave person .
no ?
That's hard to say. I don't know if there is any evidence that mage slaves are treated any better than non mage slaves. It probably varies. And it probably depends on exactly what one defines as "better treated".
The Tevinters are so obsessed with power, I'd be more inclined to think that they would NOT want a collection of capable, social-climbing mages around, but rather would want to keep them indentured on purpose. But that's just a guess.
You think Fiona would be impossible to coerce? But the mages could be coerced? Why? They have potentially suffered classism, racism, Circle internment, and who knows what other struggles, just like she has. I might expect more from her because she's the leader, but my expectations being higher has nothing to do with what she is actually capable or incapable of. There may even have been a part of her that wanted to believe that at least something of whatever the Tevinters promised her would be true (because IIRC, neither Fiona nor the Tevinters flat out say that the mages are signing up for slavery. They use euphemisms like "indentured servitude" which is potentially permanent).
Whatever Tevinter promised her, once she saw their master was a darkspawn, I would have been sure that nothing but mind control would have coerced her to side with Cory. According to the Wiki, is Fiona not the same mage from the Calling who "believed darkspawn were evil by their very nature and that assisting them could bring only misery." and stood against her elder Wardens to oppose allying with the Architect? Why oppose siding with a darkspawn magister then and not in Inquisition? Sure we could surmise that Fiona is weak willed but it's contrary to all past characterization.
Whatever Tevinter promised her, once she saw their master was a darkspawn, I would have been sure that nothing but mind control would have coerced her to side with Cory. According to the Wiki, is Fiona not the same mage from the Calling who "believed darkspawn were evil by their very nature and that assisting them could bring only misery." and stood against her elder Wardens to oppose allying with the Architect? Why oppose siding with a darkspawn magister then and not in Inquisition? Sure we could surmise that Fiona is weak willed but it's contrary to all past characterization.
Fiona sold herself and the mages to be slaves in Tevinter after they started losing the war, a war she she instigated and wanted to fight because she wanted freedom. Being incoherent is part of Fiona's MO.
Fiona sold herself and the mages to be slaves in Tevinter after they started losing the war, a war she she instigated and wanted to fight because she wanted freedom. Being incoherent is part of Fiona's MO.
Her fighting the templars is understandable, they abused their authority. Even the indentured servitude to Tevinter is understandable, as she thought it was the least bloodless recourse for all involved. But to side with the darkspawn magister whom she said would only bring about misery and aid him in becoming a god is not understandable. Don't use the stigma of her actions to cloud the issue.
Her fighting the templars is understandable, they abused their authority. Even the indentured servitude to Tevinter is understandable, as she thought it was the least bloodless recourse for all involved. But to side with the darkspawn magister whom she said would only bring about misery and aid him in becoming a god is not understandable. Don't use the stigma of her actions to cloud the issue.
I shall post it again:
Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really
There are zero mentions of mind control, in the future she wasnt being mind controlled, there are zero evidence of her being mind controlled, mo codex or any character mentions it, its only wishful thinking of people trying to excuse her poor actions, and Fiona is the master of doing poor actions.
I shall post it again:
Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really
There are zero mentions of mind control, in the future she wasnt being mind controlled, there are zero evidence of her being mind controlled, mo codex or any character mentions it, its only wishful thinking of people trying to excuse her poor actions, and Fiona is the master of doing poor actions.
Fighting to escape their fate doesn't exclude the possibility that mindcontrol wasn't used. It's not an impossibility, the Grey Warden mages, and Calpernia's master were all under some sort of geas. And all the Charger's were able to find out was that Venatori mages conducted "rituals" in Redcliffe. Should the Inquisition being ignorant of all the facts dismiss it as a possibility?
I think that if you're having to resort to mind control plots to manipulate the story into having any sense, then IMO, that's evidence of a shallow, poorly-constructed conflict, especially given that Bioware has a precedent of attempting to tackle far more complex problems than that. To me, it is preferable and sufficiently believable that people in power would make bad decisions. Everyone I know IRL has stories about "how did this moron become the supervisor" and similar stories.
IRL I have a manager that has no business being a manager, so yes, I can relate.. to a certain extent. But this goes way beyond that. Fiona couldn't have done this entirely by herself, she had to have the support of at least enough of the higher ups in the rebellion or whatever she agreed to wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, and frankly they stand to gain pretty much nothing from this alliance. It simply doesn't make any sense to chalk this up to a bad decision, because this decision isn't "bad", it's completely nonsensical. They are selling themselves into slavery and they are not even getting a modicum of security for it, if anything they are making their own situation 1000 times worse and that's under the most ideal conditions.
I think part of the problem here is that perhaps some folks haven't really thought through the logistics. Alexius couldn't have brought much of a force with him, even something in the 50 range would probably be pushing it. He's in a foreign land, far from home and he does not have the support of the entire Imperium here, not by a long shot.
Even 50 is going to attract a great deal of attention and probably lead to him having serious problems and anything more than that would probably be seen as an invading force and dealt with long before he ever got anywhere near Redcliffe. So he can't really be bringing in much as far as forces or support is concerned. Really his nnly barganing chip would be "citizenship" in the Imperium and thus a safe haven from the Templars. But there is one monster problem with that idea, that only does the rebels any good if they can get there.
So Alexius shows up, and convinces them to sign on in return for citizenship - and then takes over Redcliffe Castle. Game over for the rebel mages, right there. No chance in hell they are ever going to make it to the Imperium, because the moment they leave Redcliffe they will not only have the Templars to deal with but more than likely an extremely hostile Fereldon army as well. No way your moving a group of refugees through that much hostile territory with that many determined enemies hunting you with every thing they have, even with a couple of dozen Venatori to bolster your ranks. Fiona and her people would have to know this, and if they are outmatched by the Templars already again a small band of Venatori aren't really going to be much good. Alexius just couldn't bring a big enough force to help protect them even if they hadn't just seriously ticked off the rightful rulers of Redcliffe by agreeing to support a hostile foreign power in their takeover of the castle.
The point is, there is really nothing in this bargain for the rebel mages to make them want to agree, to any of it. This whole thing stinks to high heaven for them, and they would know it from the outset. So yes, if there were something here that Fiona stood to gain from this bargain or at least it looked like she might be getting something, then maybe this would make sense. As it stands, it makes no sense at all. This isn't a bad decision, this isn't even a moronic decision, this is a decision that is so totally off the wall that no sane person would make it.
Fighting to escape their fate doesn't exclude the possibility that mindcontrol wasn't used. It's not an impossibility, the Grey Warden mages, and Calpernia's master were all under some sort of geas. And all the Charger's were able to find out was that Venatori mages conducted "rituals" in Redcliffe. Should the Inquisition being ignorant of all the facts dismiss it as a possibility?
Yes it does, because Dorian says "The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed", he didnt say "the one who tried to run were captured and mind controlled", the ones who couldnt run were killed, no mind control magic.
Its not impossible, but there is no proof, no codex, no comment, people only say it because they want to excuse her.
lets us remember what the war table mission says?
"Thanks to Sister Leliana’s information, we were able to enter Redcliffle Castle with none the wiser. While most of the main force had long since departed, a small group of Tevinter mages was still present. They were in the middle of some sort of ritual when we arrived. We interrupted it and captured one of the mages alive. The rest fought to the death. Hopefully Sister Leliana can get useful information from the survivor about what happened at Redcliffe Castle."
Where are the rebel mages? Where is the mention of blood magic? Only tevinter mages are mentioned, and in the next war table mission the captured mage dont mention anything about mind control.
Whatever Tevinter promised her, once she saw their master was a darkspawn, I would have been sure that nothing but mind control would have coerced her to side with Cory. According to the Wiki, is Fiona not the same mage from the Calling who "believed darkspawn were evil by their very nature and that assisting them could bring only misery." and stood against her elder Wardens to oppose allying with the Architect? Why oppose siding with a darkspawn magister then and not in Inquisition? Sure we could surmise that Fiona is weak willed but it's contrary to all past characterization.
You seem to be under the impression that if someone gives in to coercion then they are automatically "weak willed", leaving no room to suggest that even someone who is strong willed can have a breaking point.
Ultimately, I do agree that I feel she has been previously characterized as a strong-willed person and it seems contrary to what we have been shown about her previously. That being said, I still don't see any evidence that Fiona was coerced. I see more evidence that she was inconsistently characterized than that she was coerced. If we were expected to continue to believe that she was as strong willed as previously depicted, then we should have been given more information. Otherwise we're left hunting for an excuse.
Yes it does, because Dorian says "The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed", he didnt say "the one who tried to run were captured and mind controlled", the ones who couldnt run were killed, no mind control magic.
Its not impossible, but there is no proof, no codex, no comment, people only say it because they want to excuse her.
lets us remember what the war table mission says?
"Thanks to Sister Leliana’s information, we were able to enter Redcliffle Castle with none the wiser. While most of the main force had long since departed, a small group of Tevinter mages was still present. They were in the middle of some sort of ritual when we arrived. We interrupted it and captured one of the mages alive. The rest fought to the death. Hopefully Sister Leliana can get useful information from the survivor about what happened at Redcliffe Castle."
Where are the rebel mages? Where is the mention of blood magic? Only tevinter mages are mentioned, and in the next war table mission the captured mage dont mention anything about mind control.
Well that ritual part is a bit suspicious. Fiona saying that she felt strange at the mention of her meeting with the Inquisitor is suspicious. Blood Magic is not the only means for Cory to control people. He can control people infected with darkspawn taint, have loyal demons possess them, or whatever he did to Calpernia's master. Am I to believe that Fiona sicked the Venatori on her rebel mages who had to fight to escape? It doesn't add up.
Well that ritual part is a bit suspicious. Fiona saying that she felt strange at the mention of her meeting with the Inquisitor is suspicious. Blood Magic is not the only means for Cory to control people. He can control people infected with darkspawn taint, have loyal demons possess them, or whatever he did to Calpernia's master. Am I to believe that Fiona sicked the Venatori on her rebel mages who had to fight to escape? It doesn't add up.
Fiona was cured of the taint, and she will mention the warden tried to taint her again but she was immune.
At Haven when you attack her she will not transform in a demon ( and every other abomination will transform into a demon, just look at the abomination in Jaws of Hakkon).
The spell used on Calpernia's master was used only on him, Corypheus was going to use on Calpernia next she didnt knew about the it and is surprised when you show her, if Fiona was controlled the same way , Calpernia would know about the spell.
You can believe anything, but there is no proof of mind control.
You seem to be under the impression that if someone gives in to coercion then they are automatically "weak willed", leaving no room to suggest that even someone who is strong willed can have a breaking point.
Ultimately, I do agree that I feel she has been previously characterized as a strong-willed person and it seems contrary to what we have been shown about her previously. That being said, I still don't see any evidence that Fiona was coerced. I see more evidence that she was inconsistently characterized than that she was coerced. If we were expected to continue to believe that she was as strong willed as previously depicted, then we should have been given more information. Otherwise we're left hunting for an excuse.
You think Bioware wanted the mages' victimization to be transparent? Perhaps they left it out to make siding with the templars more appealing. Gaider seems to take great pride in the consistent characterization of their writing, I do not think that this was just a mistake in writing. I think that Bioware left enough doubt of the issue that the rebel mages were used and that's the point, to overcome paranoia or give in to it, because it's justified.
The coercion of Fiona is easy. By the time we reach her in Redcliffe, she's already broken. She barely musters any objection when informed that her people, possibly even including the children, will be used as fodder for the front lines. She starts to argue, Alexius snaps at her, and she shrinks back like a kicked puppy. And I'm not entirely sure he had much to do with it, either.
She started the war under the premise that death was preferable to the Circles, but when actually faced with the reality that death was the most likely outcome, she folded. I think when she realized that she couldn't live up to her own hype, it took all the fight out of her. She became desperate for any way out of the mess she was responsible for, regardless what it cost her fellow mages or especially the Tranquil that relied on her faction for survival.
So when Cory shows up, regardless of how the old Fiona would have acted, the broken Fiona doesn't have much left to argue with. She's already been tested against her principles and found wanting, so all he has to do is remind her that her actions and choices have led her to the point of joining him or dying to the enemies who were once possible allies. She's already proven she's willing to roll over when threatened, so having her continue to do so is not even remotely hard to believe. Particularly when the game goes out of its way to present every other faction as an incompetent 'damsel in distress' that the Inquisition has to ride in and save.
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