384 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

Fiona was cured of the taint, and she will mention the warden tried to taint her again but she was immune.

At Haven when you attack her she will not transform in a demon ( and every other abomination will transform into a demon, just look at the abomination in Jaws of Hakkon).

The spell used on Calpernia's master was used only on him, Corypheus was going to use on Calpernia next she didnt knew about the it and is surprised when you show her, if Fiona was controlled the same way , Calpernia would know about the spell.

You can believe anything, but there is no proof of mind control.

Do the Grey Wardens turn into demons when you fought them at adamant? All we know is that the mages fought to the death just like the Warden mages in Adamant. Yes there is no clear cut proof but inconsistent characterization and suspicious magic at least should cast some doubt for those who don't dismiss the notion out of spite.

[Boost32]

Do the Grey Wardens turn into demons when you fought them at adamant. All we know is that the mages fought to the death just like the Warden mages in Adamant. Yes there is no clear cut proof but inconsistent characterization and suspicious magic at least should cast some doubt for those who don't dismiss the notion out of spite.

Grey wardens were mind controlled by blood magic, they didnt had any demons on them.

[Digger1967]

You don't think there is any conceivable way that the mages could have been threatened, intimidated, or otherwise coerced (that is, other than blood magic) into attacking Haven?

 

Ok, were apparently talking apples and oranges here.  I'm talking about there original alliance with Alexius - once you get to the in for a penny, in for a pound stage things get a bit different.

 

But there is no reason for them to sign on with Alexius to begin with, not unless some sort of mental manipulation is involved.  He just doesn't have anything to offer them that would be of any benefit to them in their current circumstance.  He couldn't have brought enough of a force to tip the balance in the Templar/Mage War, and he likewise wouldn't be able to offer them safe passage to Travintor even if they were willing to accept the indentured servititude in exchange for eventual citizenship.  

 

Once they take over Redcliffe castle, stick fork in them - they are all done.  The rulers there will have their guts for garters the second they leave the safety of that defensive position, and if they try to stay it wouldn't take long at all for the Templars to get word, go to the rulers of Fereldon and offer an alliance that would most likely be agreed to almost immediately.

 

Sure, they might have had some sympathy for the mages before, but the second you help a hostile foreign power seize Fereldon soil?  Well, sorry but you've just cooked your own goose.  Even if you accept the notion that Fiona's and the other ranking mages might be foolish, head strong, bad leaders, short sighted, etc.. this just can't work.  They are signing their own death warrants here the second they take Redcliffe - and they would have known it.  So the only plausible explanation is that some sort of mind influencing magic must be in play.  Nothing else makes any sense.

[phaonica]

IRL I have a manager that has no business being a manager, so yes, I can relate.. to a certain extent.  But this goes way beyond that.  Fiona couldn't have done this entirely by herself, she had to have the support of at least enough of the higher ups in the rebellion or whatever she agreed to wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, and frankly they stand to gain pretty much nothing from this alliance.  It simply doesn't make any sense to chalk this up to a bad decision, because this decision isn't "bad", it's completely nonsensical.  They are selling themselves into slavery and they are not even getting a modicum of security for it, if anything they are making their own situation 1000 times worse and that's under the most ideal conditions.  
 
I think part of the problem here is that perhaps some folks haven't really thought through the logistics...

I agree that this "alliance" is not a good idea. And if "some folks" haven't really thought through the logistics of it, then you must agree that it is POSSIBLE to overlook the logistics, and thus make a really badly thought out judgment/decision.

Regardless, given that this is supposedly such an obviously bad plan, why is there so little mention of protest in the game? Yes, you have some NPCs who express a general distrust of Tevinter, but there is no strong protest that you hear, no mention that there must be something else going on, no expression that Fiona seems to be not acting at all like herself, and no mention of blood magic, even though there have been numerous people in the game who have been quick to accuse others of blood magic whenever apostates are the topic.

[TK514]

There are plenty of reasons for her to sign on to Alexius to begin with.  He is, literally, holding all the cards.  He knew what was going to happen, and generally when.  He had time to move his Venetori forces into Ferelden en masse, the same way the rest of the Venetori had time to infiltrate basically ALL OF ORLAIS.

 

On top of that, he had infiltrators in her camp, making the threat seem worse than it already was, AND he topped it all off with a time magic cherry that put him where he needed to be exactly when he needed to be there.  Then you throw in the fact that even the Ferelden nobility is telling her she will be better off leaving with these Tevinter, because Ferelden itself may be turning against her.  She has no choice but to accept his bargain, frankly, because he has left her no other option save the death she wasn't so willing to accept over 'slavery' after all.

[Boost32]

Why they made a allaince with Tevinter? Is this serious? Have you not played the game?

 

Alexius saved the rebels from a templar assault, he promised them that they would become Tevinter's citizens for 10 years of servitude, Arl Wulff helped the Venatori to make the deal with the Venatori (http://dragonage.wik...h_Venatori_Ally) and Venatori infiltrators urged Fiona to accept the deal. Fiona scared, because she was losing a war accepted the deal, there is no mind control there.

[Digger1967]

The coercion of Fiona is easy.  By the time we reach her in Redcliffe, she's already broken.  She barely musters any objection when informed that her people, possibly even including the children, will be used as fodder for the front lines.  She starts to argue, Alexius snaps at her, and she shrinks back like a kicked puppy.  And I'm not entirely sure he had much to do with it, either.

 

She started the war under the premise that death was preferable to the Circles, but when actually faced with the reality that death was the most likely outcome, she folded.  I think when she realized that she couldn't live up to her own hype, it took all the fight out of her.  She became desperate for any way out of the mess she was responsible for, regardless what it cost her fellow mages or especially the Tranquil that relied on her faction for survival.

 

So when Cory shows up, regardless of how the old Fiona would have acted, the broken Fiona doesn't have much left to argue with.  She's already been tested against her principles and found wanting, so all he has to do is remind her that her actions and choices have led her to the point of joining him or dying to the enemies who were once possible allies.  She's already proven she's willing to roll over when threatened, so having her continue to do so is not even remotely hard to believe.  Particularly when the game goes out of its way to present every other faction as an incompetent 'damsel in distress' that the Inquisition has to ride in and save.

 

Ok, but you've still got some issues here that make this not track.  Fiona shows up in Val Royauex before Alexius travels back in time to offer to negotiate with the inquisition.  So obviously it occurs to her and the rebel leadership that maybe they can strike a deal with the Inqusition and that it's worth looking into.

 

Alexius travels back in time, and at least from Fiona's perspective makes it so she thinks this meeting didn't take place.  Ok, so alternate time line, blah blah.. maybe the mark made it so you remember the meeting but she doesn't, whatever.

 

But here in lies the rub.  Alexius really doesn't have anything to offer her or the other rebel mages that will be of much benefit to them.  That's the big, huge, major problem with this scenario.  Also, even if he did, why wouldn't they at least talk to the Inquisition as well, if nothing else to get the two interested parties in a bidding war of some sort?

 

It just doesn't track.  If Alexius could manage this without any sort of mind control or coercion magic, then he really doesn't need the time travel gag.  He could just go to Fiona in the present and arrange it all.  Thing is, he literally has nothing to offer them to even garner their interest.  He literally can't do anything for them that would be of any value, other than offer a couple dozen Venatori to bolster their ranks - and if that were enough to tip the balance of power in the war then they wouldn't be in that desperate a position that even that would look like a good deal.

[Boost32]

Alexius offered her Tevinter citizenship, why are you ignoring this?

[Bethgael]

Hint: talk to Krem, often, to get the Charger missions to Redcliffe Castle (and others). May answer a few questions asked in this thread (such as the fate of Alexius).

[TK514]

Ok, but you've still got some issues here that make this not track.  Fiona shows up in Val Royauex before Alexius travels back in time to offer to negotiate with the inquisition.  So obviously it occurs to her and the rebel leadership that maybe they can strike a deal with the Inqusition and that it's worth looking into.

 

Alexius travels back in time, and at least from Fiona's perspective makes it so she thinks this meeting didn't take place.  Ok, so alternate time line, blah blah.. maybe the mark made it so you remember the meeting but she doesn't, whatever.

 

But here in lies the rub.  Alexius really doesn't have anything to offer her or the other rebel mages that will be of much benefit to them.  That's the big, huge, major problem with this scenario.  Also, even if he did, why wouldn't they at least talk to the Inquisition as well, if nothing else to get the two interested parties in a bidding war of some sort?

 

It just doesn't track.  If Alexius could manage this without any sort of mind control or coercion magic, then he really doesn't need the time travel gag.  He could just go to Fiona in the present and arrange it all.  Thing is, he literally has nothing to offer them to even garner their interest.  He literally can't do anything for them that would be of any value, other than offer a couple dozen Venatori to bolster their ranks - and if that were enough to tip the balance of power in the war then they wouldn't be in that desperate a position that even that would look like a good deal.

 

You just keep saying the same thing over and over, and ignoring anything that doesn't line up with your opinion, so I think we're done here.

[Steelcan]

Alexius offers protection from the imminent Templar attack that is right over that hill, trust me, its right there, legions of them

[Digger1967]

I agree that this "alliance" is not a good idea. And if "some folks" haven't really thought through the logistics of it, then you must agree that it is POSSIBLE to overlook the logistics, and thus make a really badly thought out judgment/decision.

Regardless, given that this is supposedly such an obviously bad plan, why is there so little mention of protest in the game? Yes, you have some NPCs who express a general distrust of Tevinter, but there is no strong protest that you hear, no mention that there must be something else going on, no expression that Fiona seems to be not acting at all like herself, and no mention of blood magic, even though there have been numerous people in the game who have been quick to accuse others of blood magic whenever apostates are the topic.

 

A couple of minor problems there though, the logistics would be staring Fiona and her people right in the face.  Alexius shows up with a couple of dozen Venatori and offers, well lets say safe passage back to Travintor.  Well Fiona and her people just recently came to Redcliffe for shelter - so they have just been through a move and have some idea what all is involved.  Even if you assume best case for Alexius and that they all sort of straggled in seperately from parts unknown without some form of organized relocation, Fiona looks at Alexius and the dozen or so guys he could have possibly brought with him ant thinks, wow.. perfect.  These twenty some folks are going to protect the hundreds of refugees I have from the Templars so we can reach safe harbor in Travintor.

 

Ok, very stupid on her part but lets say again, best case scenario she's stupid enough to fall for that.  So then Alexius says, ok we can't leave right away, we need to take over Redcliffe Castle and...

 

Bam.  Done.  He's either using mind control or she's willing to commit suicide for nothing.  She has to know right then and there that while with a tremendous amount of luck they might be able to get some of their people to Travintor with the Templars on their tail, the second Redcliffe falls to the magister Fiona and her people are toast.

 

No way they ever get out of Fereldon alive.  A few dozen Venatori is not going to be able to protect them from the Templars and a very vengeful Fereledon Army who wants to make sure that no one ever betrays their royalty and their hospitality like that again.  So even assuming the absolute worst of Fiona and the other mage rebellion leaders, this only works if they are not just morons, but completely suicidal.

[Digger1967]

Alexius offered her Tevinter citizenship, why are you ignoring this?

 

Which only does them any good if they can get to Travintor alive.  The second Redcliffe falls, that becomes impossible.

[Steelcan]

Which only does them any good if they can get to Travintor alive.  The second Redcliffe falls, that becomes impossible.

no one has accused Fiona of an overabundance of good sense

[Boost32]

Which only does them any good if they can get to Travintor alive.  The second Redcliffe falls, that becomes impossible.

Redcliff has a port, I imagine they would go to Tevinter with a ship, But it was Fiona problem, she should have thought about it.

[Digger1967]

You just keep saying the same thing over and over, and ignoring anything that doesn't line up with your opinion, so I think we're done here.

 

Right.  Well, that's one way to avoid admitting you can't actually respond to a logical argument I guess.  So yup, I guess your right, you are done here.

 

I'll be more than happy to rethink this - if someone can tell me what it is that Alexius can offer the rebel mages that would convince them that this bargain was even remotely close to a good idea.  The citizenship thing doesn't work, as I mentioned it has no value if they can't get out of Fereldon.  So basically that leaves... nothing.  It also doesn't make sense for Alexius to have to use time travel under those circumstances.  Again, not something anyone has been able to address.  

 

As it is I have to put the mind control explanation in play, at least for myself, because as presented nothing else makes sense.  If and when someone offers a better explanation, hey I'm all ears.  Not like I really care about defedning Fiona's honor, etc, etc - my only interest here is in getting these apparently conflicting story elements lined up so I can just enjoy playing the game with no fear of falling into a nagging plot hole.

[Boost32]

So please, show us the mind control proof you have, if you are so sure show us a actual proo it happened.

[Digger1967]

Redcliff has a port, I imagine they would go to Tevinter with a ship, But it was Fiona problem, she should have thought about it.

 

 

Well you don't pack hundreds of people aboard one ship, not in that day and age.  Not a completely bad thought really, but again to make relocation for that many possible think you'd still be looking at bringing along way too many resources and to much of a force and being regarded as invaders and dealt with accordingly.

[Digger1967]

So please, show us the mind control proof you have, if you are so sure show us a actual proo it happened.

 

Please go back and read what I've already written.   I stated from the outset this is not canon or supported by any official, authorized source.  Merely pointing out that the story as is doesn't track and that so far at least it's the only plausible alternative I can find.

 

If you have an alternate suggestion that makes  sense, feel free to post it.  I'm all ears.

[phaonica]

You think Bioware wanted the mages' victimization to be transparent? Perhaps they left it out to make siding with the templars more appealing. Gaider seems to take great pride in the consistent characterization of their writing, I do not think that this was just a mistake in writing. I think that Bioware left enough doubt of the issue that the rebel mages were used and that's the point, to overcome paranoia or give in to it, because it's justified.

Maybe. And that's fine. I'd still have liked for the topic to have at least been broached in-game, even if there was no way to prove it. Because the possibility of blood magic wasn't mentioned by anyone in the game, I didn't consider it, and it seemed to come out of left field when it was suggested. To me, there seemed to be no evidence of blood magic (opportunity yes but no evidence). The use of blood magic has always been made relatively evident in the previous games. I felt like I had been conditioned to expect SOMEONE to bring it up if it were a possible explanation. If the writers were trying to teach us a lesson that sometimes you CAN'T tell, then I feel like they probably should have actually portrayed that in the game. Was the lesson too subtle for me? Was I too dumb to catch it? Maybe. It wouldn't be the only time in the game, that I felt that certain seemingly obvious risks to certain choices were completely unmentioned.

[Digger1967]

no one has accused Fiona of an overabundance of good sense

 

Ok, I realize there's apparently a lot of hate for the character, I got that.  But even assuming she is the biggest twit that ever walked, it's not entirely her decision to make.  She has to sell this to the other rebel mages, unless one assumes they are all total lemmings who are willing to follow her off a cliff at the drop of a hat.

 

Sorry, it just doesn't track.

[Digger1967]

Maybe. And that's fine. I'd still have liked for the topic to have at least been broached in-game, even if there was no way to prove it. Because the possibility of blood magic wasn't mentioned by anyone in the game, I didn't consider it, and it seemed to come out of left field when it was suggested. To me, there seemed to be no evidence of blood magic (opportunity yes but no evidence). The use of blood magic has always been made relatively evident in the previous games. I felt like I had been conditioned to expect SOMEONE to bring it up if it were a possible explanation. If the writers were trying to teach us a lesson that sometimes you CAN'T tell, then I feel like they probably should have actually portrayed that in the game. Was the lesson too subtle for me? Was I too dumb to catch it? Maybe. It wouldn't be the only time in the game, that I felt that certain seemingly obvious risks to certain choices were completely unmentioned.

 

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not saying it has to be blood magic.  Not an expert on the subject but Blood Magic seems to be a way to seriously ramp up the horsepower.. well if your not opposed to human sacrifice that is.

 

In this case the control or manipulation seems a lot more subtle, it isn't total domination but rather a way of making something unreasonable sound reasonable.  It might have been Cory himself, we do know that even before the blood magic ritual was used by the Wardens that gave him total control of their mages, that he was able to influence their minds.  it might be possible that he can do this with others as well, and it's not entirely illogical to assume that it works best on those that have some sort of stronger connection to the Fade (such as mages) or are tainted in some way (like the wardens).

 

And I'm not asserting that this was the writers original intent, merely pointing out that there are some serious issues with the plot line as presented, and that in order for me at least to enjoy the roleplaying aspect of the game I need to resolve them at least for myself.  If others chose not to follow this line of reasoning I'm ok with that.

[Boost32]

Please go back and read what I've already written.   I stated from the outset this is not canon or supported by any official, authorized source.  Merely pointing out that the story as is doesn't track and that so far at least it's the only plausible alternative I can find.

 

If you have an alternate suggestion that makes  sense, feel free to post it.  I'm all ears.

I have one but you will say the same thing "It doesnt make sense it must be mind control" so whats the point?

And you are saying she was mind controlled, you are the one who should show evidence of her being mind controlled, saying to others "it doesnt make sense, im the one who is correct" doesnt make a solid argument.

[phaonica]

Sure, they might have had some sympathy for the mages before, but the second you help a hostile foreign power seize Fereldon soil?  Well, sorry but you've just cooked your own goose.  Even if you accept the notion that Fiona's and the other ranking mages might be foolish, head strong, bad leaders, short sighted, etc.. this just can't work.  They are signing their own death warrants here the second they take Redcliffe - and they would have known it.  So the only plausible explanation is that some sort of mind influencing magic must be in play.  Nothing else makes any sense.

If this plan is so logistically bad, how is it supposed to even work in Alexius' favor? If he comes in with his twelve mages and tells Fiona that they'll help the mages turn the tide of the battle, and it's obvious to Fiona that this plan is doomed to fail, then how could it have ever worked for Alexius?

If, from Alexius' perspective, once the mages are bound to him he will use them to lead them against whatever forces that Ferelden pulls together in protest and MAYBE whichever templars aren't under Corypheus' control yet. How can this plan possibly work for Alexius, if their combined forces don't stand a chance to even get out of Redcliffe?

[Catche Jagger]

A wizard did it.