384 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

And I'm not asserting that this was the writers original intent, merely pointing out that there are some serious issues with the plot line as presented, and that in order for me at least to enjoy the roleplaying aspect of the game I need to resolve them at least for myself.  If others chose not to follow this line of reasoning I'm ok with that.

That's my primary hang-up, too. I feel like there are issues with the plot line as presented that don't add up, so for me the game is more enjoyable if I accept the excuses that don't involve mind-control. It's a bias I know I have.

[Digger1967]

That's my primary hang-up, too. I feel like there are issues with the plot line as presented that don't add up, so for me the game is more enjoyable if I accept the excuses that don't involve mind-control. It's a bias I know I have.

 

No worries, if that works for you great.  Me I can't get it to line up without it.  Just to many.. wow, really?'s in there otherwise.. lol

[Digger1967]

Alexius offers protection from the imminent Templar attack that is right over that hill, trust me, its right there, legions of them

 

It really comes down to how big of a force could he have brought with him?  A couple of dozen, tops - anything more than that and your not a group of Travintor tourists, your an invading force and you never make it to your destination.  If whatever small force Alexius could have brought with him would be enough to tip the tide of the battle, well that pretty much indicates that the mages weren't really that over matched in the first place.  

 

Also the imminent attack of course is supposition, but if that were taking place then it must have only happened in the timeline where Fiona signs the agreement, not the one where she comes to meet you in Val Royeux - but that of course causes some other problems/conflicts because the templars who are attacking left the order and are not under thier command anymore, so Alexius.. a mage, would have had to somehow arranged that attack by the templars to give Fiona the push needed to make her sign a deal.

 

Not completely out of the realm of possibility I guess, but from there things get  complicated and convoluted pretty quick.  I'll have to give that a bit more thought and see if I can come up with a viable solution there.

[Digger1967]

There are plenty of reasons for her to sign on to Alexius to begin with.  He is, literally, holding all the cards.  He knew what was going to happen, and generally when.  He had time to move his Venetori forces into Ferelden en masse, the same way the rest of the Venetori had time to infiltrate basically ALL OF ORLAIS.

 

On top of that, he had infiltrators in her camp, making the threat seem worse than it already was, AND he topped it all off with a time magic cherry that put him where he needed to be exactly when he needed to be there.  Then you throw in the fact that even the Ferelden nobility is telling her she will be better off leaving with these Tevinter, because Ferelden itself may be turning against her.  She has no choice but to accept his bargain, frankly, because he has left her no other option save the death she wasn't so willing to accept over 'slavery' after all.

 

Ok, if he had time to move them en masse.. well then why did he need to travel back in time?

 

The infiltrators thing, ok no real indication there in anything official but it makes sense, I can buy that.  But the large Venatori force in Redcliffe?  Well that one I can't really latch onto I'm afraid.  It would take a ton of time to secretly move a large force in small enough numbers not to be noticed, but even more troublesome is that the cut scenes in the game don't support that notion, they contradict it in fact.

 

When your agents kill Alexius's men, it doesn't take a huge army to overwhelm them.. because there just aren't that many of them there.  I guess one could assume a huge force of Venatori elsewhere in the castle or in Redcliffe that are never mentioned or shown - but if such is the case then your advisors probably would never have signed off on the whole sent agents through to retake the castle plan, because if it were being held by a huge force of Venatori the effort wouldn't have had a chance to succeed.

[phaonica]

Ok, if he had time to move them en masse.. well then why did he need to travel back in time?

 

The infiltrators thing, ok no real indication there in anything official but it makes sense, I can buy that.  But the large Venatori force in Redcliffe?  Well that one I can't really latch onto I'm afraid.  It would take a ton of time to secretly move a large force in small enough numbers not to be noticed, but even more troublesome is that the cut scenes in the game don't support that notion, they contradict it in fact.

 

When your agents kill Alexius's men, it doesn't take a huge army to overwhelm them.. because there just aren't that many of them there.  I guess one could assume a huge force of Venatori elsewhere in the castle or in Redcliffe that are never mentioned or shown - but if such is the case then your advisors probably would never have signed off on the whole sent agents through to retake the castle plan, because if it were being held by a huge force of Venatori the effort wouldn't have had a chance to succeed.

 

I asked this previously but maybe you didn't see or haven't gotten to it yet.

 

If Alexius plan could never have worked and is so logistically bad, how was it ever supposed to even work in Alexius' favor? If he comes in with his twelve mages and tells Fiona that they'll help the mages turn the tide of the battle, and it's obvious to Fiona that this plan is doomed to fail, then how could it have ever worked for Alexius?

If, from Alexius' perspective, once the mages are bound to him he will use them to lead them against whatever forces that Ferelden pulls together in protest and MAYBE whichever templars aren't under Corypheus' control yet. How can this plan possibly work for Alexius, if their combined forces don't stand a chance to even get out of Redcliffe?

[Digger1967]

I asked this previously but maybe you didn't see or haven't gotten to it yet.

 

If Alexius plan could never have worked and is so logistically bad, how was it ever supposed to even work in Alexius' favor? If he comes in with his twelve mages and tells Fiona that they'll help the mages turn the tide of the battle, and it's obvious to Fiona that this plan is doomed to fail, then how could it have ever worked for Alexius?

If, from Alexius' perspective, once the mages are bound to him he will use them to lead them against whatever forces that Ferelden pulls together in protest and MAYBE whichever templars aren't under Corypheus' control yet. How can this plan possibly work for Alexius, if their combined forces don't stand a chance to even get out of Redcliffe?

 

Well it can work.. for Alexius.  He can take Redcliffe and hold it long enough that Cory can do what he needs to do and raise the demon army.  Alexius would probably also know that Cory would have enough influence amongst the Templars to keep them from actually attacking in any sizeable force and delaying any negotiations they might have with the Fereldon Army, they wouldn't want to have to assault the keep if they don't have too since it is such a highly defensible position and their losses would be extensive.  So Alexius knows that they can draw this out until the ire of the Fereldon Army is no longer anything he needs to worry about.

 

Problem is that this isn't information that Alexius can share with Fiona and the rebels - so from their perspective this is a fools bargain for them.  Alexius can't really offer them anything of any real value.  Alexius might know the truth, and yes the plan could work for him and the Venatori.. but it won't work for the rebel mages and will involve them in matters that they never would have agreed to if they'd known the truth from the outset.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Apparently people forget how an entire corrupted Templar Order or entire army of Venatori can march on Haven from somewhere and apparently nobody notices until they are attacking you.

[Digger1967]

Apparently people forget how an entire corrupted Templar Order or entire army of Venatori can march on Haven from somewhere and apparently nobody notices until they are attacking you.

 

Well no, I don't forget that.  It is a bit of a plot hole in and of itself, as you generally can't move such a large force without it being noticed.  The only somewhat plausible explanation I have for it is that the Templars would not have attracted quite as much attention as a huge force of Venatori, after all people are accustomed to seeing Templars in Fereldon.

 

However the point is quite correct, it would have been very difficult to attack Haven with such a large force and have it go completely unnoticed until it arrived.  

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well no, I don't forget that.  It is a bit of a plot hole in and of itself, as you generally can't move such a large force without it being noticed.  The only somewhat plausible explanation I have for it is that the Templars would not have attracted quite as much attention as a huge force of Venatori, after all people are accustomed to seeing Templars in Fereldon.

 

However the point is quite correct, it would have been very difficult to attack Haven with such a large force and have it go completely unnoticed until it arrived.  

Considering that red templar horrors, knights, and a behemoth are there, I think people must be blind if they ignore the people with crystals growing out of them or the giant crystal monster walking around.

[Master Warder Z_]

they joined willingly*


*terms and conditions may apply

Ha!

[TEWR]

Apparently people forget how an entire corrupted Templar Order or entire army of Venatori can march on Haven from somewhere and apparently nobody notices until they are attacking you.

 

Yeah even accepting Leliana's "I pulled our scouts back because I didn't want them to be hurt" strains credulity for me, because other people would've noticed (like refugees coming to Haven to join the Inquisition). The Red Templar Army would've had to march from Therinfal to Haven, while the Venatori would've had to march from Redcliffe to Haven. 

 

This isn't even accounting for all the other forces that might be coming from elsewhere.

[Master Warder Z_]

If they actually employed medieval tactics they wouldn't even march at night.

Moving a literal army in the dark is a total ******, it's blown up in more then one General's face.

[Ieldra]

It's heavily implied she was brainwashed. There's (apparently) a codex entry that confirms this, but I've never seen it.  If it is the case then I wish BW had made that clearer.

There is no such entry. This is an invention by some contributor to the DA wiki. It appears everywhere on teh wiki, but there is no source. I'm not saying it's implausible - I'm assuming there is some kind of mental influence, else Fiona's actions would be rather stupid - but as far as I'm aware of - and I know the Codex well - there is no source that confirms this.

[Oroko]

I believe it wasn't the real Fiona fighting at Haven. Fake Fiona mentions she was not the one who invited the Inquisitor to meet with the mages at Redcliff. Real Fiona was at Val Royeaux and tricked Inky to clear out Venatori and free her people. Real Fiona DLC coming to a store near you!

[Digger1967]

I believe it wasn't the real Fiona fighting at Haven. Fake Fiona mentions she was not the one who invited the Inquisitor to meet with the mages at Redcliff. Real Fiona was at Val Royeaux and tricked Inky to clear out Venatori and free her people. Real Fiona DLC coming to a store near you!

 

Hey now,we got quite enough of that evil twin thing in the Templar plot line, thank you very much.

 

Lol

[MisterJB]

Apparently people forget how an entire corrupted Templar Order or entire army of Venatori can march on Haven from somewhere and apparently nobody notices until they are attacking you.

They killed Leliana's scouts as they approached. She has an existential crisis about it and everything.

Plus the Frostbacks are so scarcely populated Haven went unnoticed for over a thousand years.

And this is a medieval time period. Ravens and couriers are the fastest means of communication available and they can be killed.

[TEWR]

 

 

They killed Leliana's scouts as they approached

 

She tells you she pulled them back, thus preventing them from doing their job and being sacrificed, actually.

 

Far as I recall, anyway.

 

Her crisis is about how she should've left them out there, because they might've given sufficient advance warning that the Inquisition could've actually been prepared.

[TEWR]

This may sound like an asspull, but the Red Templars could have taken the Deep Roads from Eastern Ferelden to the Frostbacks.  

 

I mean, since they had taken Blighted Lyrium, I doubt the Darkspawn would notice.

 

It is theoretically possible, more so since Cory has sway over the Darkspawn.

[TK514]

Ok, if he had time to move them en masse.. well then why did he need to travel back in time?

 

The infiltrators thing, ok no real indication there in anything official but it makes sense, I can buy that.  But the large Venatori force in Redcliffe?  Well that one I can't really latch onto I'm afraid.  It would take a ton of time to secretly move a large force in small enough numbers not to be noticed, but even more troublesome is that the cut scenes in the game don't support that notion, they contradict it in fact.

 

When your agents kill Alexius's men, it doesn't take a huge army to overwhelm them.. because there just aren't that many of them there.  I guess one could assume a huge force of Venatori elsewhere in the castle or in Redcliffe that are never mentioned or shown - but if such is the case then your advisors probably would never have signed off on the whole sent agents through to retake the castle plan, because if it were being held by a huge force of Venatori the effort wouldn't have had a chance to succeed.

 

My problem with your central theory, that Alexius couldn't have enough forces to make a difference, is that, when you are tossed into the future, you are explicitly told that he did.  He not only had enough forces to make his argument convincing, he had enough to hold Redcliffe against the Inquisition, the Templars, and the Ferelden Army.  So whatever he brought, however they got there, it was enough to make good on his promise.

 

There are several reasons stealing a march on the Inquisition makes sense.  It deprives the Inquisition of the magical might to close the Breach (which Alexius needs open for his time magic), it gets him in a position to take over the greatest defensive fortification in Ferelden (which he does), it augments his forces with additional mages (while depriving his opponents of the same), and, perhaps most importantly, Corypheus told him to.

 

Now, while I absolutely agree that moving large concentrations of foreign troops around the hostile countryside is more than a little handwaved here, it isn't as though it is unique to this situation.  DA:I basically exists on the premise that no one notices armies of Venatori and Red Templars moving around and taking over whole provinces and attacking holy sites while manipulating nobility and whatever.  Everyone in DA:I that isn't part of the Inquisition is blind, stupid, crazy, or all of the above.

[Rannik]

I don't see anything unusual with stupid Fiona being stupid.

[RobRam10]

For the glory of the Imperium of course!

[Digger1967]

She tells you she pulled them back, thus preventing them from doing their job and being sacrificed, actually.

 

Far as I recall, anyway.

 

Her crisis is about how she should've left them out there, because they might've given sufficient advance warning that the Inquisition could've actually been prepared.

 

I think she also mentions that she made the decision after the first of her scouts went missing, as I recall.  Which might explain how they managed to move a large force relatively undetected, by sending in smaller bands of raiders most likely to scour the area for scouts and eliminate them.  It would still be a difficult feat to pull off, but I guess if as someone else suggested that Haven is very remote it might be possible.

[Boost32]

We can blames Leliana incompetence for that.