384 réponses à ce sujet

[Digger1967]

 

"My name is Dorian Pavus, and I bring grave news from Redcliffe--An army of rebel mages, right behind me. They are under the command of the Venatori, in service of something called the "Elder one". The woman is Calpernia. She commands the Venatori. For that...the Elder One. They were already marching on Haven. I risked my life to get here first!"

 

So Calpernia and Cory went together to fetch the mages!. (But honestly, I'm being super petty right now. The blame lies on Coryphunus and he was the one who destroyed Alexius. I'm just to lazy to remember how to spell his name, so I used Calpernias name instead. )

 

 

 

Well I doubt Alexius said he would wait for 10 years. Maybe a week or a month, to get the most dire things out of the way and then they would head off. The mages could stay in his yard and eat grass for the next nine years.

Being a grand enchanter doesn't mean squat when the Circles have fallen. It's like being the principle of a school which was shut down for teaching cannibalism, your school is gone and your craft is looked down on. Being the servant of a High Ranking Magister is a much better position for Fiona in this  case.

 

But on friendlier terms, I like the second half of your theory (from the blood ritual part and stupid behind part)and agree with it for the most part. 

 

The Seeker bit of it is contradicted by the book Asunder and Dragon age 2. The last Lord Seeker was not killed by Corypheus and the templar/mage war is an bubble issue which burst in Dragon Age 2. And Corypants has not been free for long, but he's super effective on Wardens and Mages. 

But it's still a good theory based on the facts you have to work with. (Sorry if I come of as aggressive. I'm just jittery)

 

 

Never played DA:2 so wasn't aware, I do recall that in the Cassandra personal quest when you meet the "real" Lord Seeker Lucious I'm pretty sure he mentions that he got the book with all the Seeker's secrets in it after the former Lord Seeker is killed fighting in the mage rebellion, so that's what I was basing that part off of.  I guess the Red Lyrium thing just makes more sense to me, I mean to get to where he was ine order Lucious must have been a pretty stand up guy at some point, and thats also the impression you get from Cassandra when she talks about how he is "not the man she remembers", so it just makes sense to me that Cory targeted the leaders of the seekers to turn them so that they wouldn't be any trouble for him later on.  It also helps resolve the whole "I can't be taken over by demons but I was taken over by a demon" thing for me, so that part works for me at least and if the former Lord Seeker is already dead before this then that's easy enough to fix, the servant taken over by the envy demon infiltrates the seekers and starts by posioning Lucious himself since he'd be the head of the order at that time.  I only mentioned the former Lord Seeker because I was sure Lucious made mention of it during that cut scene.. but i may have missed something there or misheard something.  Entirely possible.

 

No worries, didn't sound overly aggressive at all - mostly this is just for my own edification really - to sort of tie some of these elements together and allow me to enjoy the roleplay/story aspect since there just isn't quite enough here that is "official" to settle some of these questions in my mind.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Never played DA:2 so wasn't aware, I do recall that in the Cassandra personal quest when you meet the "real" Lord Seeker Lucious I'm pretty sure he mentions that he got the book with all the Seeker's secrets in it after the former Lord Seeker is killed fighting in the mage rebellion, so that's what I was basing that part off of.  I guess the Red Lyrium thing just makes more sense to me, I mean to get to where he was ine order Lucious must have been a pretty stand up guy at some point, and thats also the impression you get from Cassandra when she talks about how he is "not the man she remembers", so it just makes sense to me that Cory targeted the leaders of the seekers to turn them so that they wouldn't be any trouble for him later on.  It also helps resolve the whole "I can't be taken over by demons but I was taken over by a demon" thing for me, so that part works for me at least and if the former Lord Seeker is already dead before this then that's easy enough to fix, the servant taken over by the envy demon infiltrates the seekers and starts by posioning Lucious himself since he'd be the head of the order at that time.  I only mentioned the former Lord Seeker because I was sure Lucious made mention of it during that cut scene.. but i may have missed something there or misheard something.  Entirely possible.

 

No worries, didn't sound overly aggressive at all - mostly this is just for my own edification really - to sort of tie some of these elements together and allow me to enjoy the roleplay/story aspect since there just isn't quite enough here that is "official" to settle some of these questions in my mind.

Actually, Lambert is one of the main causes of the mage rebellion. He was a blatant mage-hater who knew Meredith was abusing her power but decided to do nothing, and he started to turn the White Spire into an actual prison and defied the Divine which wound up starting the rebellion.

 

Also, Cass' quest outright says that Seekers are immune to red lyrium so no, Lucius wasn't controlled, he just went insane when he found out how Seekers are made. 

 

Also, envy doesn't have to possess anyone to look like them. If you do the "kill envy" operation, the Chargers say that envy shapeshifted into several people including some of your companions before being killed which pretty much proves envy doesn't have to possess someone to look like them, only to learn from them.

[Amne YA]

Just to mention to the seekers are not the templar
but the seekers can lead the templar but not visversa so the probleme like we discover came from the order of seeker and not the templar order ... that's why i plan to restor the templar order and not the seeker order . Cause the seeker order have only bring probleme and corruption to thz templar order

[Digger1967]

1- she is a fool like everybody  remarqued  ,  you are saying she isn"t fool is just saying no to something true , like sky is blue no i see it red 
every body see the sky blue but you have the right to see it red , but we all see her not only as a foul but also a week and selfish leader of the rebel mages
2- the mages are following her , cause she have the best magic ability , mages follow better mages just like in the tiviter imperium where the strongest mage became Magister , so they are followiing and can not disagree with her 
3- she lead tthem to their fall

 

1. I realize you have an extreme dislike of her, I get that.  Just that even if she is a "fool" the motivations here make no sense, at least not to me.  If her motivation for all of this and most of what she does is to set herself up in a better position and "get what she wants" well she's going from being a highly respected leader to being a flunky.  Not seeing that as a good career move myself.  If her motivations are entirely selfish, well so be it but she has a lot more options than just Alexius and his Travintor wonderland if she is willing to sell all of her fellow mages down the river.

 

2, Which might be the case, but you know that doesn't mean that people will follow her blindly just for that reason.  My high school football coach was a much better player than i ever was, he played at the collegiate level.  Doesn't mean that even back when I was playing football that if he took me to the top of a huge bridge and told me to jump over the side that I would.  i wouldn't have sold myself into slavery to make him happy, either.  Sorry, but on the one hand your telling me Fiona is this horribly selfish idiot and on the other your telling me that all of the mages of the rebellion are fanatically loyal to her and will obey her every whim.  Guess I'm just having a real hard time putting that together in a way that makes sense.  Could just be me.

 

3.  You can lead a group of people to the edge of a cliff and tell them all to jump.  It's a pretty rare thing to have such control over them that they actually would.  It's not completely unheard of, but it requires a cult iike atmosphere in which the followers are more or less brainwashed.  Pretty evident this is not the case if you take the time to talk to one of the mages at Redcliffe who only joined the rebellion because he felt like he had no choice and thinks this whole alliance with Travintor thing is a horrible idea.  See, the problem here is Fiona and her people really don't gain anything from this alliance, at least not nearly as much as they stand to lose and that's obvious to most anyone looking at it objectively.  So it just doesn't make sense that you'd get all of the people in positions of authority within the rebellion to go along with this, not without some form of mental machinations.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just to mention to the seekers are not the templar
but the seekers can lead the templar but not visversa so the probleme like we discover came from the order of seeker and not the templar order ... that's why i plan to restor the templar order and not the seeker order . Cause the seeker order have only bring probleme and corruption to thz templar order

The Templar mission pretty much proved that the Templar leadership was rotten to the core. Maybe that's okay for you but that pretty much proved every negative thing I ever thought about Templars. That's why mages earned their freedom and the templar order is gone forever in all my games

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

People seem to forget that an arl helped with the alliance with Tevinter

You will need to be specific with this one since it's not Teagan, it's Arl Wulff, who mistakenly believing that the Rebel mages would live peacefully in the Imperium, and peace and stability in Ferelden will be restored once the mages are gone. 

[Digger1967]

Actually, Lambert is one of the main causes of the mage rebellion. He was a blatant mage-hater who knew Meredith was abusing her power but decided to do nothing, and he started to turn the White Spire into an actual prison and defied the Divine which wound up starting the rebellion.

 

Also, Cass' quest outright says that Seekers are immune to red lyrium so no, Lucius wasn't controlled, he just went insane when he found out how Seekers are made. 

 

Also, envy doesn't have to possess anyone to look like them. If you do the "kill envy" operation, the Chargers say that envy shapeshifted into several people including some of your companions before being killed which pretty much proves envy doesn't have to possess someone to look like them, only to learn from them.

 

Interesting.. I must have missed the portion that seekers are immune to red lyrium.  I'll have to play that side through again at some point and see if I can find that portion.  I do remember it does state they are immune to demonic possesion, but not red lyrium.  Hmm.. that does bring up some interesting possiblities.

 

I guess my problem with this is based in part on the Templar quest, the Envy demon spends a lot of time..hours and hours and hours of god awful long horribly stupid cut scenes, as i recall, trying to manipulate the Inquisitor so he can take his form.   Umm.. why?  if he can just assume my form without all of that, why is it when I get to the end he wants to start over again with "more pain this time" or something to that effect?   Whats the purpose of all the rigamrole, why not just kill me and take my form without all the silliness?

 

Again, I can only go by what I've read here and what I know from DA:I - never read any of the books or played any of the previous games so I'd be interested in hearing from folks like yourself who have, because honestly it just doesn't resolve itself all that well otherwise.

[Amne YA]

The Templar mission pretty much proved that the Templar leadership was rotten to the core. Maybe that's okay for you but that pretty much proved every negative thing I ever thought about Templars. That's why mages earned their freedom and the templar order is gone forever in all my games

for god sake i just told you that the templar have nothing ro do with the seekers but the seekers have an authority on them cause they are in a superior grade above the templars .it juste like the milatty officier and a police officier . They don't have any thing in common . But you will go to a magistar trap to save a bench of mage and the stupid fiona don't you? Act as a leader . You are the hero there . Going there make Dorian the hero cause he literally save the world and correct your mistake . letting dawn an army trained to fight demons and magic against of bench of mage

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Both the Mages and the Templars are brainwashed and enslaved by Corypheus. While there is definitely members from both who joined willingly, the majority are nothing but mind-controlled puppets. 

[Colonelkillabee]

You jump through hoops to defend her all you want, Bee. I assume you have excuses for all the other mages going along as well. Must be some serious mind control. Especially considering the fact they all suddenly forgot about it. Even when all outside influences are removed. It was magic that made them do it and then suddenly forget it forever. Her being mind control also isn't subtle. Neither is time travel.

It was obviously subtle enough for you to miss it.

 

You pass all that butthurt all you want, you'd have to do a lot more jumping through hoops to pass she's just dumb than I'd need to say she was controlled, especially considering the strangeness around her appearance in val royeaux, and her lack of memory for it later.

[riverbanks]

I guess my problem with this is based in part on the Templar quest, the Envy demon spends a lot of time..hours and hours and hours of god awful long horribly stupid cut scenes, as i recall, trying to manipulate the Inquisitor so he can take his form.   Umm.. why?  if he can just assume my form without all of that, why is it when I get to the end he wants to start over again with "more pain this time" or something to that effect?   Whats the purpose of all the rigamrole, why not just kill me and take my form without all the silliness?

 

Because it's more than just taking your face and walking away with it - Envy must first learn who you are, so it can replicate your perfect image. In the "bad ending" slide, it's clear no one ever figured out "you" were a demon, they just thought you'd gone mad with power and corrupted the Inquisition to your whims. It's not just looking like you, it has to be you.

 

Both Envy and Cole explain all this to you throughout the quest. Envy is testing you with those images not to scare you into submission, but to observe how you react to them, so it can learn from those reactions the things you're refusing to tell it about yourself.

[Amne YA]

Haha poor people who miss the wonderful introduction of Cole on their playthrought .
It just awsome you already been introduced to Dorian in redclif and became bros then you go meet the most cute spirit kick a envy demon go back home with an army of templars seal a fuc*ing breach . Bro Dorian came frim redcilf to warn about Cory caming perfect story

[TK514]

It was obviously subtle enough for you to miss it.
 
You pass all that butthurt all you want, you'd have to do a lot more jumping through hoops to pass she's just dumb than I'd need to say she was controlled, especially considering the strangeness around her appearance in val royeaux, and her lack of memory for it later.

Her lack of memory about the meeting in Val Royeaux is because it didn't happen for her. Alexius changed the past so that he arrived in Redcliffe before she left. It's not mind control, it's time travel.

[Amne YA]

Her lack of memory about the meeting in Val Royeaux is because it didn't happen for her. Alexius changed the past so that he arrived in Redcliffe before she left. It's not mind control, it's time travel.

just what i m traying to say to people
when he go end meet her before you she don't came to val rayaux she join the magister . No one control her . Understand this people

[Hanako Ikezawa]

just what i m traying to say to people
when he go end meet her before you she don't came to val rayaux she join the magister . No one control her . Understand this people

Nobody says Fiona was mind controlled to accept Alexius' help. He and the Envy demon played Fiona so she had no choice but to accept the only offer of help there was. 

 

When people talk about her being controlled, they are referring to during the Battle of Haven. Fiona did not want her people dragged into further war, and yet they join the Venatori who want to wage war with the world? They weren't willing participants, just like the Templars aren't if you side with the Mages. 

[Bad King]

It's heavily implied she was brainwashed. There's (apparently) a codex entry that confirms this, but I've never seen it.  If it is the case then I wish BW had made that clearer.

 

From what I've heard it's apparently a note (not a codex entry) in the Hissing Wastes, though I've not seen any evidence of it yet. If anyone has a screenshot, please share.

[KaiserShep]

just what i m traying to say to people
when he go end meet her before you she don't came to val rayaux she join the magister . No one control her . Understand this people

The fact that no one is controlling her kind of makes it worse. Regardless of the time magic, magisters are typically regarded as seriously bad news, and aligning with them rightly earns a great deal of hatred.

Anyway, I changed my mind and now just conscript them, which I find is more fun with my mage Inquisitor.

[Colonelkillabee]

Her lack of memory about the meeting in Val Royeaux is because it didn't happen for her. Alexius changed the past so that he arrived in Redcliffe before she left. It's not mind control, it's time travel.

K well that's about as speculative as any other explanation. Point being more's going on than "hurr durr, dumb mage."

 

Unless it's only happening in pockets of space, we'd have never seen her or gone to redcliffe.

[Ashagar]

The Templar mission pretty much proved that the Templar leadership was rotten to the core. Maybe that's okay for you but that pretty much proved every negative thing I ever thought about Templars. That's why mages earned their freedom and the templar order is gone forever in all my games

 

Because clearly the leadership that got blown to kingdom come was clearly rotten to the core... Same with the Knight-Vigilant, the surviving highest ranking Templar who got murdered so he wouldn't spot the false lord seeker...

 

Honestly though any ranking leaders of either the Templars or mages who was worth anything either A. blow up at the conclave, B. got murdered afterwards or C. already joined the inquisition.

[TK514]

K well that's about as speculative as any other explanation. Point being more's going on than "hurr durr, dumb mage."

 

Unless it's only happening in pockets of space, we'd have never seen her or gone to redcliffe.

 

Except it isn't speculative.  Either Dorian or Felix spells out that Alexius & Co use time magic show up in Redcliffe mere days after the explosion.  We don't make it to Val Royeaux nearly that fast.

[Addai]

Even if you ascribe the worst possible motivations to Fiona and assume she is the biggest fool that ever walked, I cannot see how it's possible that none of the other people who are in positions of authority in the rebellion would go along with this otherwise.  I'm also not certain why so many people seem to be so adamantly against this as a possibility, i mean it's not like there isn't evidence of Corypheous and his followers using mind control on the Wardens at the very least, even prior to the blood magic rituals Hawke and Varric talk about how Cory is able to get into the heads of the Wardens at the prison and turn them against one another.  Maybe it works better on them than it does on others because of the taint they carry.. that might be why he seems to be able to almost control them after a time whereas with others it might just be more difficult.
 
I guess for me it just resolves a lot of the story/roleplay issues I have with DA:I and sort of ties it together so it makes sense.  Like I said, if it doesn't work for you,eh..ok - don't use it.  Not like I'm getting paid for it either way.

They're adamant because there's so much mindless hate for Fiona on these boards, that a logical inference is dismissed as a crazy asspull because to do otherwise would be to see Fiona and the rebel mages as human and her bargain as a desperate but understandable measure.

This is coupled by reflexive hate of Tevinter such that we're supposed to believe mages owe the countries who imprisoned them all their lives some kind of eternal loyalty even if they all die in the process. As the guy in Redcliffe says, the fault of the war is put on the mages no matter how messed up the templars are. Welcome to BSN.

[Colonelkillabee]

Except it isn't speculative.  Either Dorian or Felix spells out that Alexius & Co use time magic show up in Redcliffe mere days after the explosion.  We don't make it to Val Royeaux nearly that fast.

Time travel is used, yes, that's established. Time travel being used to keep her from val royeaux isn't. If it were true, we would have never seen her there because time would have been changed. But we did remember, so it happened.

[Master Warder Z_]

People seem to forget that an arl helped with the alliance with Tevinter

Got beheaded for his trouble too.

[TEWR]

Time travel is used, yes, that's established. Time travel being used to keep her from val royeaux isn't. If it were true, we would have never seen her there because time would have been changed. But we did remember, so it happened.

that's been bothering me as well. Only thing I could think of for why we remember is maybe the Anchor allowing us immunity, but that falls flat when IIRC the companions remember as well.

 

Or are they silent on the matter of Fiona in VR at the meeting in Redcliffe? If they're silent then I'm just gonna roll with Anchor-Immunity headcanon.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

There is mind control in terms of the control Corypheus exercise over the Wardens, which I do not think is what happens with Fiona, and then there is mind manipulation such as we know Alexius had already employed with Fiona.   When we turn up at Redcliffe she has indentured herself and all the other mages to Tevinter.   The reason for this is that the meeting with the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux never took place, Alexius turned back time enough that he could arrive before the Inquisitor at Redcliffe and persuaded Fiona that the mages would be better off accepting his offer of protection.   If Fiona didn't see herself as honour bound not to ally with a hostile foreign power against the monarch and the people who had offered them sanctuary, why would she worry about attacking Haven?

 

.... OHHHHHHHH. Ok. That actually makes the entire confusion she has make sense to me now. the only problem I see with it is, why does the Inquisitor and company still remember her meeting with them, though?