262 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

For all her flaws, she still is very useful for debate.

While I disagree that allowing them to be free is something that should never be done as Vivienne might think, she's right about the risks.

True, mages don't turn into abominations or go power hungry everyday. But it only takes something going wrong just once for people's hatred against them to escalate.

The College of Mages is a good option, but the point is that they need to be isolated whether it's under the Chantry's rules or their own.

The good thing about Circles or a similar concept is that if the worst happens, it will be away from the common citizen's sight.

I like Divine Cassandra's idea best, though the devs decided she must fail at dealing with them no matter what. Go figure.

[The Baconer]

No need to worry about Divine Vivtoria, though. No need to worry at all.

[Qun00]

Yes, she uses force to keep them in the palm of her hand, but she lacks the genuine concern for their happiness which Cassandra has.

Vivienne is good enough for stability, not progression.

[Jaison1986]

For all her flaws, she still is very useful for debate.

While I disagree that allowing them to be free is something that should never be done as Vivienne might think, she's right about the risks.

True, mages don't turn into abominations or go power hungry everyday. But it only takes something going wrong just once for people's hatred against them to escalate.

The College of Mages is a good option, but the point is that they need to be isolated whether it's under the Chantry's rules or their own.

The good thing about Circles or a similar concept is that if the worst happens, it will be away from the common citizen's sight.

I like Divine Cassandra's idea best, though the devs decided she must fail at dealing with them no matter what. Go figure.

 

The best ending for stability would be Divine Leliana with mages as conscripts. That way the Inquisition would become the new templars of sort. Minus the fanatism and abuses.

 

Vivienne arguments, in my opinion are weak, as her opinions don't come from genuine concern, but that mages having their way would put her confortable lifestyle to risk. And considering that the ending with either Leliana and Cassandra as Divine end up as much less bloody then Vivienne's is quite telling.

[SwobyJ]

Vivienne brings the most violence save for maybe Hardened Leliana, by default.

 

The only significant positives I can think of are:

1)She sets a new clear precedent for the future - the most influential and powerful people, not even from Tevinter, can be mages. So those people who wanted 'Mages with power' in this game, can get it here. Leliana's path is a 2nd choice, but it doesn't as quickly guarantee that such a precedent is set.

2)Stability DOES happen. But Vivienne has to force it to happen. She opposes change so much that it brings chaos for a while, but her epilogue seems to indicate that yes, at least with positive approval going on, Vivienne then greatly succeeds, and we get to set up an otherwise from #1 similar situation to the past. If you thought that the Circle system was enough and it really was malcontents that were the real problem, there you go.

 

 

A College of Enchanters intends on making new change in Thedas and that conflicts with many.

A Bright Hand pushes for reform and acts to dominate the mage society and that is a potential danger.

Keeping the Circles keeps the old solutions and old problems. The pro of this is that you're not dealing with as much potential mage/non-mage conflicts for a while (after the initial uproar) nor are you dealing with a rising mage class that has more and more power.

 

Circles keep problems contained for the most part. Even this mage/templar conflict was heavily instigated by several forces, not started just by mages in Circles. Just don't expect for either progressive or revolutionary change. This is about stability. There's always some sort of change of course (DAI is ABOUT change as WELL as stability), but its a a rather specific sort (a mage ruler setting example).

 

 

Vivienne can be considered correct about nearly every statement she makes, but that doesn't mean she's genuine about these statements nor does she care about any greater truths beyond her statements. They're carefully crafted to encourage a specific way of thinking and acting, and it turns out, her as Divine does ultimately control Thedas to become that specific way of thinking and acting. For better or worse.

 

This specific way, mind you, includes a more responsible Templar and more reasonably treated Mage population. It just isn't the reform of Cassandra or the revolution of Leliana, but instead just a resurrection of the original intent of these organizations. Vivienne will also not broker dissent - unlike the complications of Cassandra's rule, Vivienne makes sure there's the Circle and THE CIRCLE ONLY.

 

 

Personally, I'm quite pro-Circle through DAO and DA2 but Vivienne is too far. I'm trying for either Leliana or Cassandra, and I'm fine with both. I don't need such definitive, dictatorial rule of Vivienne, and I don't need a mage to be at the top just to show that there can be a mage at the top. Still, this is important to some. Vivienne provides a shorter term war for what seems to be a mid to long term stability. It works. She made it work. Just feels icky to me though.

[SwobyJ]

The best ending for stability would be Divine Leliana with mages as conscripts. That way the Inquisition would become the new templars of sort. Minus the fanatism and abuses.

 

Vivienne arguments, in my opinion are weak, as her opinions don't come from genuine concern, but that mages having their way would put her confortable lifestyle to risk. And considering that the ending with either Leliana and Cassandra as Divine end up as much less bloody then Vivienne's is quite telling.

 

Arguably, 'blood running down the halls' with Leliana can be viewed as more bloody than (with positive approval with Vivi)  'an uproar', 'war' (with surrendering), 'fury'.

 

Sounds like a Hardened Leliana makes things consistently violent no matter what (to keep her order maintained), whereas a High Approval Vivienne may strike hard and fast (and yes, violent) but it doesn't continue for long.

 

I'd say its possible that a Hardened Leliana is more bloody than any Vivienne. Its just that Leliana, of course, doesn't have to be Hardened.

 

Cassandra is the least bloody but there's also more of an impression of a troubled/uncertain rule no matter what. This troubled rule can still be awesome depending on choices though. It goes the least for rapid changes of any sort, whether immediately or sustained.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne arguments, in my opinion are weak, as her opinions don't come from genuine concern, but that mages having their way would put her confortable lifestyle to risk.

 

Vivienne makes it explicitly clear that her positions stem mainly from her wish not to save her fellow mages from themselves (so to speak).

 

She does not give the outwardly appearance of a compassionate person, but that does not mean she does not care.

 

This is a seasoned player of The Game we're talking about. She got to where she is by keeping her cards close to her chest.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The College of Mages is a good option, but the point is that they need to be isolated whether it's under the Chantry's rules or their own.

 

Isolation is the worst thing for The Circle or any cheap imitation of it that seeks to regulate magic/mages. Leaving all regulation to the same group of people you seek to regulate is a sure path to corruption. IMO, there needs to be a prominent non-mage entity jointly regulating The Circles (or a cheap imitation ala Bright Hand/The College) to ensure the interests of non-mage people are not forgotten or neglected.

 

Otherwise, you are just recreating the thing that brought back Turdvinter from the ashes, post-Andraste. What is the definition of insanity?

[Dai Grepher]

Actually a high approval Vivienne does enact reforms that give the mages more responsibilities and freedoms. So I believe she is the best choice for progress. The freedoms she grants are not radical, they are gradual and prudent. She keeps order, yet makes the lives of mages easier than it was, thus keeping every rational person [in Thedas] satisfied. The malcontents have their new rebellion crushed before it can start. I think that the other ladies, even in their best case scenarios, create a situation that can easily turn bad in the near future.

Modifié par Dai Grepher, 09 avril 2015 - 04:47 .

[Laughing_Man]

...True, mages don't turn into abominations or go power hungry everyday. But it only takes something going wrong just once for people's hatred against them to escalate.

The College of Mages is a good option, but the point is that they need to be isolated whether it's under the Chantry's rules or their own.

 

People's hatred, was something that the Chantry lovingly encouraged for generations.

Sure, jealousy is very natural, but the chantry institutionalized manaphobia and brainwashed the masses.

 

All you need is a constant example for the good magic can do.

"Magic exists to serve man" - let the mages serve then, open free clinics with healers to the public instead of keeping the healers only for the use of nobles or chantry higher-ups. This way, when the occasional psycho decides to enact some horror, people can still see mages for the people they are, instead of painting them all as monsters.

 

Mages don't need to be isolated, mages merely need to be answerable to the rule of law.

You can use a special agency, with good investigators, mages and various fade-touched individuals (spirit-touched, Lyrium drinkers, etc.) for magic-fighting muscle, to enforce the law on those that would misuse magic.

(and it wouldn't hurt to learn a few things from the Avaar "barbarians" about magic, mages, and spirits.)

 

Finally, Vivienne is the last person I would trust with anything, much less the fate of nations.

She is too much in love with her own image, too afraid of what she is, and too blind and set in her ways to consider the possibility that she might be wrong.

[Big I]

I never found Vivienne at all convincing. Her main argument is that non magical people will always be afraid of magic, that it's simply in their nature. She ignores all examples where this is not the case:

 

-the necromancers of Nevarra

-the seers of Rivain

-the Dalish Keepers

-the Avaar

-Tevinter

 

You can even bring up Tevinter in conversation with her as a counter point to her argument; she's dismissive and never engages with the point.

 

You see what her attitude is really about if you take Cole and Vivienne along together enough, or take Vivienne to the Fade. In the Fade she's visibly uncertain and apprehensive. In banter Cole calls her out on being afraid of magic. It's Vivienne who's afraid of magic, not everyone else.

[Han Shot First]

Where Vivienne is absolutely spot on is when she discusses the Mage Rebellion, pointing out where it fails strategically by making mages look like the villains much of Thedas imagines. She may in denial to some extent to about the flaws of the Circle system, but she is on the money 100% of the time when discussing the Mage Rebellion. 

[Rocknife]

Vivienne: the most annoying person ever. She likes being the second woman of a man and she likes being locked up in a tower. She loves the Grand Game and she loves being a manipulative liar. Only Vivienne and Mother Giselle are like that.

 

Vivienne is the worst Divine Option. She opresses mages even more than previous Divines. Nobody respects her and she opresses and threatens to remain in power.

 

Also, remember the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Those mages were in the Circle yet many of them turned into abominations because they were tired of being oppressed by Templars. So Circle mages may have more reasons to use blood magic than the free ones.

[Qun00]

Where Vivienne is absolutely spot on is when she discusses the Mage Rebellion, pointing out where it fails strategically by making mages look like the villains much of Thedas imagines. She may in denial to some extent to about the flaws of the Circle system, but she is on the money 100% of the time when discussing the Mage Rebellion.

No question about that. Fiona is a huge moron.

[Rocknife]

Even Anders, who escaped the Circle Tower 7 times, says that Mage Rebellion would be a recipe for disaster in DAO Awakening. But what caused the rebellion? Mages rebelled because they were being oppressed and they didn't feel safe anymore. Vivienne oppresses them even more, that is not even as wise as mages rebelling. That only invites even more rebellions and more people will resort to Blood Magic. And Vivienne herself is a mage so Templars will not be happy with her no matter what she does. Opression never ends well.

[SwobyJ]

Actually a high approval Vivienne does enact reforms that give the mages more responsibilities and freedoms. So I believe she is the best choice for progress. The freedoms she grants are not radical, they are gradual and prudent. She keeps order, yet makes the lives of mages easier than it was, thus keeping every rational person satisfied. The malcontents have their new rebellion crushed before it can start. I think that the other ladies, even in their best case scenarios, create a situation that can easily turn bad in the near future.

 

It can be reasoned that those willing to go to war about:

1)Circles existing at all

2)Templars existing at all

3)A Mage being Divine

 

After all of the events that have happened, really are malcontents. A minimizing term, yes, but possibly true. 

 

Negative approval Vivienne is an utter mess, arguably worse and/or more brutal (or equal, or only slightly better) than hardened Leliana.

 

But positive approval Vivienne doesn't really screw that much up. What - she wants things to be sorted out more with more stability for all? Then like a politician, I don't really care about your internal feelings, just do the job and make things good for everyone.

 

Somewhat oppressive Templars in Ferelden and screwed up Templars in Free Marches (I'll never forget the Enigma of Kirkwall and its possible effects on EVERYTHING) are not all that matters (and I chose Mages in both games BTW). DAI lore also matters and wider lore matters as well. By and large, for centuries, the Circles and Templars have kept things stable, and that's all that most people, mage or non-mage in Thedas, cares about.

[SwobyJ]

Even Anders, who escaped the Circle Tower 7 times, says that Mage Rebellion would be a recipe for disaster in DAO Awakening. But what caused the rebellion? Mages rebelled because they were being oppressed and they didn't feel safe anymore. Vivienne oppresses them even more, that is not even as wise as mages rebelling. That only invites even more rebellions and more people will resort to Blood Magic. And Vivienne herself is a mage so Templars will not be happy with her no matter what she does. Opression never ends well.

 
Ha, oppression is the way of history. Some succeed with it, some don't. The winners tend to get a blind eye put towards their acts.
 
And you're talking about negative approval Vivienne.
 
"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her."
"For now, the Chantry remains united. Though difficult for many to accept, a mage sits on the Sunburst Throne and will remain there."
"Some say it is only her warm relationship with the Inquisition that ensures her victory."
"Three revolts follow in quick succession, and her response is immediate and vicious. For months, chaos reigns."
"Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."

 

Oh no, months of rebellions and then....? Yes, people set back into normality, except the New Normal where indeed:

1)Templars are reformed

2)A Mage example is given for Mages to aspire to power, but without Blood Magic or whatever

3)Mages are in fact given more power and responsibility than before

 

All of this (again Positive Vivienne) gives the impression of some shorter term pain for longer term stability. 

 

Governments crack down all the time, in many ways, and it most often works. We can hate or love that, but it works. As long as a certain balance is maintained.

 

Negative Vivienne lacks that balance, so Vivienne lashes out (whatever - both Leliana and Cassandra can screw up too, especially Leliana) and the Chantry/her power crumbles.

 

But Positive Vivienne has a better relationship with the Inquisition, and therefore a more positive relationship with the wider southern Thedas in the next months. Its easy to believe that she treats the initial rebellions more fairly (even if still swiftly) and works more enough for her ideals instead of just her personal power.

 

Result? Oh look, the world is like it was before, but a little better. And the rebellions against her fade away as pointless post-war lashing out and pathetic hatreds at seeing a mage at the head of the Chantry (always ignorantly hypocritical given the miracles that Andraste was said to have done, *cough* mage).

 

 

I don't like Vivienne for Divine and I could make a whole other post why. Heck, I don't like Vivienne much. Heck, I think she should buzz off, and if my Main Inquisitor story wasn't so completionist and my Inquisitor wasn't such a mage that wants to know everything magical from NPCs I'd kick her out/ignore her.

 

But it doesn't change that she continues to speak from the correct perspective of the 'world that is'. Not the world that was and could be again, not the world that may or may not be. But the world that is and what comforts most people in Thedas today. To establish that safety for people takes some pain once in a while, but it also has a proven track record. That the Templars have faltered in their responsibility over time isn't necessarily a reason to overturn them, but really only reason to reform them with renewed purpose. Anything beyond that is a more personal wish, not acting on the desires of the many (non-mages).

 

 

One can like Cassandra and Leliana more as Divine all they want (and I do), but Cassandra has more complications over time no matter what, and even Softened Leliana is taking a path that previously seemed to not just set up future revolt, but the Tevinter Imperium itself. A more secluded College may very well aim for independence and then domination over others. Circles do prevent this, say whatever else about them. Personally, I don't want another Imperium, so if Leliana is my Divine, I'll have to just have a somewhat blind hope that this time will be different. A blind hope that isn't really bolstered by much in the lore except the general arc of 'things will be better this time!' in Bioware stories.

[SwobyJ]

Even Anders, who escaped the Circle Tower 7 times, says that Mage Rebellion would be a recipe for disaster in DAO Awakening. But what caused the rebellion? Mages rebelled because they were being oppressed and they didn't feel safe anymore. Vivienne oppresses them even more, that is not even as wise as mages rebelling. That only invites even more rebellions and more people will resort to Blood Magic. And Vivienne herself is a mage so Templars will not be happy with her no matter what she does. Opression never ends well.

 
-Mage Rebellion was a disaster, yes. Also likely partially instigated by the Elder One at that, a mage (if one theorizes his long reach; I think it isn't confirmed). But still chosen by the Rebel Mages using the worst examples as a reason to overturn the whole system. There isn't a directly great reason to support rebels just for this, but they want retribution asap instead of reforms over time. I sided with Mages in Kirkwall specifically because it was a uniquely insane situation, but that doesn't necessarily extend to the rest of the Circles that have stood for centuries.
-Vivienne does not oppress as much. She puts down dissent, but that's something even many mages, especially post-war would support. This then settles and mages in fact appear to have as many privileges as Vivienne herself did in the more liberal Circles.
-Templars will be happy. She's the one to reform them. The ones who optionally don't rejoin become another order (a more broad and non-lyrium taking knightly order), and they don't seem to have anything against her so far. Vivienne is not a maleficar, but instead the exemplar of working within the Circle system for the benefit of all (fighting Cory for the Inquisition)*. Only thing she actually rocks the boat on, given that all over reforms would be considered at least mildly positive ones, is being a Mage Divine.
That's where Vivienne's politics matters. She has enough influences and networked support (especially with Positive Inquisitor relationship) to easily survive after the first few rocky months. This appears to include the Templar relationship.
 
 
 
*call her selfish all you want. Its her face she puts in front of us anyway. But instead, she's a mage who is afraid of the possibilities of magic because the possibilities of magic are drastic and horrible, and her power climbing itself appears to have an ultimate goal - stability for Thedas. All of her ambition and belief in her importance revolves around what seem to be a caution and care about what continues to be facts about Thedas and its dealings with magic, despite the more rare examples to the contrary to some degree.
 
 
~~~~

"Which brings us to Vivienne's "conservative" politics. Honestly I'm surprised more people don't like her because she espouses what many people were saying when DAII was the latest Dragon Age game: the Circles should be reformed, not abandoned, to protect everyone. She has a certain hatred for Rebel Mages, sure, but only because she thinks they're being massively entitled. She almost expresses sympathy towards the mages of the Kirkwall Circle, because she recognizes things there were bad. But mages in Orlais can live outside the Circle Tower with permission from a First Enchanter. Certainly in Fereldan there are mages who live outside the Circle (Shale's master lived outside the Circle, doing dangers experiments with Golems, for example.). The only true oppressive tool the Templars have is the Rite of Annulment, which cautious Knight-Commanders like Greagoir are very reticent to use, and which most mages will ever encounter."

[Poledo]

For all her flaws, she still is very useful for debate.

While I disagree that allowing them to be free is something that should never be done as Vivienne might think, she's right about the risks.

True, mages don't turn into abominations or go power hungry everyday. But it only takes something going wrong just once for people's hatred against them to escalate.

The College of Mages is a good option, but the point is that they need to be isolated whether it's under the Chantry's rules or their own.

The good thing about Circles or a similar concept is that if the worst happens, it will be away from the common citizen's sight.

I like Divine Cassandra's idea best, though the devs decided she must fail at dealing with them no matter what. Go figure.

 

 

The one example she uses always bothers me. She talks about a child accidentally killing her parents when her powers manifest. The circle can't prevent that though - they wouldn't even know the child was a mage until that happened.

[themageguy]

For my loyalist Knight Enchanter, he supports Vivienne as Divine.
Makes the story flow quite well by allying with Templars too.
And after all, a mage sitting upon the sunburst crown is a big change for Thedas.

For my other mage, Cassandra is supported, and the mages conscripted.

[Akkos]

The one example she uses always bothers me. She talks about a child accidentally killing her parents when her powers manifest. The circle can't prevent that though - they wouldn't even know the child was a mage until that happened.

 

When that happens with the mages free of circle, do you think people will take that child to the college of enchanters? Or the mages will walk their way to rescue that child?

[themageguy]

Vivienne: the most annoying person ever. She likes being the second woman of a man and she likes being locked up in a tower. She loves the Grand Game and she loves being a manipulative liar. Only Vivienne and Mother Giselle are like that.

Vivienne is the worst Divine Option. She opresses mages even more than previous Divines. Nobody respects her and she opresses and threatens to remain in power.

Also, remember the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Those mages were in the Circle yet many of them turned into abominations because they were tired of being oppressed by Templars. So Circle mages may have more reasons to use blood magic than the free ones.

Under Vivienne, mages are given alot more freedoms than ever before, according to Morrigan in the epilogue.

Also, the events in the circle in Fereldan (origins), that whole disaster was caused by Uldred, and him forcing mages into abominations.
His actions caused the death of his fellow magi in the tower.

But i do agree with you on mother Giselle.

I also find it ironic that if one wants to support the circle /templar system, the best way to achieve status quo is to put a mage on the throne lol

For my cannon, i prefer.Cassandra as divine, but was amazed at how well a loyalist type of.mage could be role.played in inquisition.

[Wulfram]

When that happens with the mages free of circle, do you think people will take that child to the college of enchanters? Or the mages will walk their way to rescue that child?

People are probably more likely to get their mage child some training if it doesn't mean condemning them to life imprisonment.

[leaguer of one]

Vivienne: the most annoying person ever. She likes being the second woman of a man and she likes being locked up in a tower. She loves the Grand Game and she loves being a manipulative liar. Only Vivienne and Mother Giselle are like that.

 

Vivienne is the worst Divine Option. She opresses mages even more than previous Divines. Nobody respects her and she opresses and threatens to remain in power.

 

Also, remember the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. Those mages were in the Circle yet many of them turned into abominations because they were tired of being oppressed by Templars. So Circle mages may have more reasons to use blood magic than the free ones.

You do understand under Her rule Mages have more political power, right?

[Arakiel12409]

One can like Cassandra and Leliana more as Divine all they want (and I do), but Cassandra has more complications over time no matter what, and even Softened Leliana is taking a path that previously seemed to not just set up future revolt, but the Tevinter Imperium itself. A more secluded College may very well aim for independence and then domination over others. Circles do prevent this, say whatever else about them. Personally, I don't want another Imperium, so if Leliana is my Divine, I'll have to just have a somewhat blind hope that this time will be different. A blind hope that isn't really bolstered by much in the lore except the general arc of 'things will be better this time!' in Bioware stories.

As you mention it, Viviennes candidacy could also indicate that the original Schism between the Southern Chantry and the Imperial Chantry could be at least partially bridged. The biggest complaint of the Tevinter theologians was the ban of magic, which was always in high standing in the Imperium, and this lead to the Schism. That mages in the South are now allowed to have ranks in the chantry could prove long-term beneficial for relations between the Imperium and the rest of Thedas that follows the White Divine.

 

Speculation, of course, but it seems like a first step to adress one of the core conflicts between both Chantries and two of the largest countries in Thedas.