262 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

Without its head the rebellion couldn't happened, killing the leaders put fear on the followers, its very effective ( Leliana suggest it when the mages rebel against the Inquisitor if he use tranquility).
You keep saying her actions were the right choices, but how it was right if it didn't prevented the war? In fact it made the situation worse.
The game can tell me anything, if it doesn't show me how I can believe it? People tell me Leliana is a good spymaster, but her actions show me the opposite. I will believe what I see, not what others people tell me.

I must simply disagree, fear drives some people to submission (loyalists) but drives others to open rebellion. Kill the leaders and it will incite even more rebellion, fear is never a good way to control people. Look at Kirkwall. I say she did the best that was humanly possible, but I don't think she could have prevented the war. She did all she could and it failed, I don't blame her for not being a miracle worker. It just shows me that the Circle under Chantry authority failed to do what it was meant to do and there was nothing that could be done to stop it.

[Boost32]

I must simply disagree, fear drives some people to submission (loyalists) but drives others to open rebellion. Kill the leaders and it will incite even more rebellion, fear is never a good way to control people. Look at Kirkwall. I say she did the best that was humanly possible, but I don't think she could have prevented the war. She did all she could and it failed, I don't blame her for not being a miracle worker. It just shows me that the Circle under Chantry authority failed to do what it was meant to do and there was nothing that could be done to stop it.

I can point to you a few times where killing a few rebel mages prevented them from rebelling:

http://dragonage.wik...:_How_Could_You

Vivienne's epilogue made clear she squashed a new rebellion and the mages went back to the Circle.

And if you want example beyond mages, you just need to see hardened Leliana's epilogue.

So to me Justinia made a bad situation worse because she didn't choose the right actions. She was a weak and incompetent Divine.

[DKJaigen]

Actually I think mastery and understanding of fighting against magic does more to prevent it. Obviously having mage allies is helpful but they are a rarity to begin with and not everyone has it in them to be a soldier. Enter the Templars.

 

 

You cannot fight something you do not understand. And you actually say templars? the same templars that got en mass corrupted by cory because he knew how to twist their weak point.

[Boost32]

You cannot fight something you do not understand. And you actually say templars? the same templars that got en mass corrupted by cory because he knew how to twist their weak point.

The mages can be corrupted to. Why do you blame only one side?
And Cory was a mage who f***ed the world twice because no one was watching him.

[Lumix19]

I can point to you a few times where killing a few rebel mages prevented them from rebelling:

http://dragonage.wik...:_How_Could_You

Vivienne's epilogue made clear she squashed a new rebellion and the mages went back to the Circle.

And if you want example beyond mages, you just need to see hardened Leliana's epilogue.

So to me Justinia made a bad situation worse because she didn't choose the right actions. She was a weak and incompetent Divine.

Both of those instances are directly after Corypheus and the year long war, not exactly the same situation that Justinia was facing. And who's to say that rebellion doesn't occur later and far more violently than before? It's hard to threaten mages, they have no ties, no families. If the Resolutionists are reformed how many lives could be lost?

You say Justinia didn't choose the right actions as if you know what those actions are? You don't know the factors she had to consider when making her decision but presume to know better than her? Judging her so seems slightly arrogant, especially since she is by all accounts a skilled and clever woman, she did get the mages and templars to meet for the Conclave.

 

 

The mages can be corrupted to. Why do you blame only one side?
And Cory was a mage who f***ed the world twice because no one was watching him.

Corypheus screwed over the world because he had the resources of a world-spanning empire to tap into the first time, and the power of a god the second time, him being a mage is rather irrelevant don't you think?

[Iakus]

To be clear, she's only 'sorta' First Enchanter. She was set to be the First Enchanter and has general support for that position, but the Mage-Templar conflict left any Circle authority in flux. She has the Loyalists on her side, but during the game, there isn't anything established to be Loyal to, but her.

Vivienne's codex entry:

 

"Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned."

 

An assiduous and talented scholar, Vivienne rose rapidly through the ranks of Montsimmard's Circle. When made a full-fledged enchanter, she elected to join no fraternity, a decision that shocked colleagues but may have been a calculated maneuver. When she successfully applied to be appointed Enchanter to the Imperial Court, nearly every fraternity clamored for her favor in hopes of having a representative at the empress's ear. She was voted First Enchanter of Montsimmard at an age young enough to cause scandal. The Circle widely regards her as the most shrewd and disciplined mage in Orlais.

 

She's not "sorta" the First Enchanter, she is the First Enchanter

[Iakus]

The idea behind the Circle is not to punish person X; it is to remove them.

 

That might sound harsh, but sometimes physical separation truly is the best way to settle conflicts. Domestic violence is an example of this. There are also many historical examples, where new nations were formed to separate warring factions (e.g. -- India and Pakistan).

 

It is understandable why the Chantry may feel like separation is the best solution. Sure, people may fight all the time, but magic makes these potential fights a lot messier. When magic is used, innocent bystanders are at a higher risk of being harmed than fights using conventional weapons. Doubly so if the lack of a Circle results in a lack of proper training for the mage. Suddenly you have more involved parties, and the family or friends of the victims may enter the mix seeking retribution. Also, in a panic situation, mages run high risk of possession. Suddenly the death-toll shoots up exponentially (to the tune of 50+ victims). Now, more panic ensues, and the presence of magic leads to mages getting the blame (even if they were never the aggressors) and becoming the target of more violence. And this is before taking things like Blood Magic and summoning spirits into account.

 

The Circle seeks to avoid this. In theory, it is not punishing the mages; it is actually protecting them. The Circle is defensible, and by rights, Templars are obligated to protect mages from outside threats like mob riots. In practice, that has not always been the case (Kirkwall being a prime offender). However, even at its worst, the concept of the Circle has never been to preemptively punish the mages to pacify the average citizen. It is to provide the mages safe refuge for their training and everyday life, and if something does go wrong, it is at least contained within the walls of a castle away from the general populace (fewer victims, less hard feelings towards the mages). In that time, they learn to control their power and receive quality education, so if/when they do leave the Circle, they are equipped to handle being out there.

It's why I compare the Circle system, at it's best, to Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters.

 

It's trying to turn mages into X-Men, and protect the world from potential Magnetos.

 

Sadly, that goal has been lost over the centuries.

[Lumix19]

It's why I compare the Circle system, at it's best, to Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters.

 

It's trying to turn mages into X-Men, and protect the world from potential Magnetos.

 

Sadly, that goal has been lost over the centuries.

Now that is cool. I heartily approve.

[SwobyJ]

Vivienne's codex entry:
 
"Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned."
 
An assiduous and talented scholar, Vivienne rose rapidly through the ranks of Montsimmard's Circle. When made a full-fledged enchanter, she elected to join no fraternity, a decision that shocked colleagues but may have been a calculated maneuver. When she successfully applied to be appointed Enchanter to the Imperial Court, nearly every fraternity clamored for her favor in hopes of having a representative at the empress's ear. She was voted First Enchanter of Montsimmard at an age young enough to cause scandal. The Circle widely regards her as the most shrewd and disciplined mage in Orlais.
 
She's not "sorta" the First Enchanter, she is the First Enchanter

 
Of the Circles and College that have been disbanded. Which was my point.
 
A title for something that is no longer recognized except for use of a title.
 
Before and after DAI yes, she's fully First Enchanter (or Divine). During DAI all sorts of politics is in flux, thus 'sorta'.

"With the impending Mage-Templar war, the College of Magi has voted to separate itself from the Chantry sometime between 9:38–9:40 Dragon, effectively dissolving the Circles."

 

Yes, such a First Enchanter. In her own mind and of the Loyalists still sticking around. No one else.

 

Technically she's still First Enchanter of, um, something. So I say 'sorta' instead of yes or no.

 

After DAI this is different, one way or another. The Circles are reinstated, or they are formally dissolved by the new Divine (as in dissolved not just by Mage or Templar organization, but Chantry leadership; depends on what authority you think matters most here - thus, again, 'sorta').

[Personette]

The idea behind the Circle is not to punish person X; it is to remove them.

 

That might sound harsh, but sometimes physical separation truly is the best way to settle conflicts. Domestic violence is an example of this. There are also many historical examples, where new nations were formed to separate warring factions (e.g. -- India and Pakistan).

 

In cases of domestic violence, the abuser is guilty of... abuse. Yes, separating a violent abuser--a criminal--from his victim is a good thing. Yes, care must be taken, because that's when the abuser is most likely to kill his victim.

 

Most mages are not guilty of anything. They're stuck in Circles anyhow. 

 

Also, the example of India & Pakistan is--in my opinion--a prime example of how separation can go wrong. Thousands of people died in the process of separating India and Pakistan--the forced migrations alone were devastating. 

 

Also... how well has that worked out again? Because India and Pakistan have been on the brink of war ever since the land was partitioned. They have nukes pointed at one another. Pakistan has nukes because of India. Pakistan having nukes is a danger to everyone.

 

If you ask me, Pakistan & India is a disaster. The negative effects have snowballed--as they always do. 

 

It is understandable why the Chantry may feel like separation is the best solution. 

 

Ignorance, fear-mongering, and punishing a minority faction in order to make the majority faction more comfortable are, indeed, UNDERSTANDABLE. Doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's right. (It's not.)

 

 

Sure, people may fight all the time, but magic makes these potential fights a lot messier. When magic is used, innocent bystanders are at a higher risk of being harmed than fights using conventional weapons. Doubly so if the lack of a Circle results in a lack of proper training for the mage. Suddenly you have more involved parties, and the family or friends of the victims may enter the mix seeking retribution. Also, in a panic situation, mages run high risk of possession. Suddenly the death-toll shoots up exponentially (to the tune of 50+ victims). 

 

And here we get to the usual arguments in favor of Circles, which have been debated ad nauseum. Sacrifice the few for the good of the many. And, yep, it's possible this would result in marginally less death and destruction (though if you balanced the lives saved through containment against the lives that might be saved if mages were allowed to live freely & use their skills for good, I suspect the balance would tip in the other direction.)

 

 

Now, more panic ensues, and the presence of magic leads to mages getting the blame (even if they were never the aggressors) and becoming the target of more violence. 

 

"I'm doing this to you for your own good!" -- Vomit.

 

 

The Circle seeks to avoid this. In theory...

 

Theory is nice, but theory must be tested by results. The results have disproven the theory. So. Time for a new theory.

[DKJaigen]

The mages can be corrupted to. Why do you blame only one side?
And Cory was a mage who f***ed the world twice because no one was watching him.

 

Im not blaming anybody. im saying that the current templar order and circle of magi are not capable of dealing with beings like  cory. And i blame the chantry on how they approach magic .And i dont doubt their are more cory's out their. Next time fen harel may not be around. And for the record cory WAS being watched. he was imprisoned in a huge ass fortress made by dwarfs and sealed by bloodmagic. it was not enough

[Boost32]

Both of those instances are directly after Corypheus and the year long war, not exactly the same situation that Justinia was facing. And who's to say that rebellion doesn't occur later and far more violently than before? It's hard to threaten mages, they have no ties, no families. If the Resolutionists are reformed how many lives could be lost?

You say Justinia didn't choose the right actions as if you know what those actions are? You don't know the factors she had to consider when making her decision but presume to know better than her? Judging her so seems slightly arrogant, especially since she is by all accounts a skilled and clever woman, she did get the mages and templars to meet for the Conclave.

 

 

Corypheus screwed over the world because he had the resources of a world-spanning empire to tap into the first time, and the power of a god the second time, him being a mage is rather irrelevant don't you think?

And what is the difference? If Vivienne and Lelianna can quell their unrest, Justinia could if she wanted too. It would bought her the time she needed to implement her changes, if another occured later she would not be in the poor situation she was. And did you see how many lives were lost in the war? She could have prevented it, killing a few mages would have prevented it, later she could eliminate Lambert and both sides would be pacified.

I judge her because she failed, she could be a skilled and clever woman, but at that time she was weak and incompetent. If you cant see how she made things worse you are blind.

 

Corypheus screwed the world because he was a mage. Without magical powers he wouldnt heard Dumat, wouldnt opened the gates to the Black City, wouldnt brought the Blight to Thedas, wouldnt have the ability to body jump, he wouldnt have unlocked Solas' orb or contacted Nightmare. A mudane person with power can cause alot of damage, a mage can cause damage that last centuries  (look at Zathrian) a very powerful mage can bring the world to a end (Corypheus almost did it twice). The damage of a mudane cannot be compared to a damage a mage can do.

 

 

Im not blaming anybody. im saying that the current templar order and circle of magi are not capable of dealing with beings like  cory. And i blame the chantry on how they approach magic .And i dont doubt their are more cory's out their. Next time fen harel may not be around. And for the record cory WAS being watched. he was imprisoned in a huge ass fortress made by dwarfs and sealed by bloodmagic. it was not enough

This mess was caused because of Solas, he gave his orb to Corypheus, I cannot see how he tought it would be a good idea. And Corypheus wasnt being watched when he was a magister at Tevinter, if he was being watched in a Circle we wouldnt have nether the Breach or the Blight. About the prison you cant be serious, his only watcher as a madman ghoul.

[Dai Grepher]

This mess was caused because of Solas, he gave his orb to Corypheus, I cannot see how he tought it would be a good idea.

 

Haven't you ever felt groggy when you wake up? Well Solas had been sleeping for a thousand years.

 

Seriously though, Corypheus was probably in one of his normal forms when he met Solas.