262 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

People are probably more likely to get their mage child some training if it doesn't mean condemning them to life imprisonment.

 

Good thing we can push for reforms from within the system then.

[SwobyJ]

As you mention it, Viviennes candidacy could also indicate that the original Schism between the Southern Chantry and the Imperial Chantry could be at least partially bridged. The biggest complaint of the Tevinter theologians was the ban of magic, which was always in high standing in the Imperium, and this lead to the Schism. That mages in the South are now allowed to have ranks in the chantry could prove long-term beneficial for relations between the Imperium and the rest of Thedas that follows the White Divine.

 

Speculation, of course, but it seems like a first step to adress one of the core conflicts between both Chantries and two of the largest countries in Thedas.

 

Indeed. Still not picking her though. Can't get past her nasty attitude. lol

[AshenEndymion]

People are probably more likely to get their mage child some training if it doesn't mean condemning them to life imprisonment.

 

Even with the College's existence, mages in southern Thedas aren't going to start inheriting titles...  And it's the noble families that like to keep their mage children around and have the magic kept secret.   It's unlikely that those noble families are going to get to keep their son/daughter at home and have it publicly known they're being trained in magic. The young mage is still going to have to leave their family and go to wherever the College is located.  And that mage isn't going to get to leave unless the College decides to let them...

 

So, essentially, every mage is getting condemned to life imprisonment, either way.  The question is does one prefer mage jailers or Templar jailers.

[Big I]

Even with the College's existence, mages in southern Thedas aren't going to start inheriting titles...  And it's the noble families that like to keep their mage children around and have the magic kept secret.   It's unlikely that those noble families are going to get to keep their son/daughter at home and have it publicly known they're being trained in magic.

 

Why not? We've seen apostate noble even before the rebellion. Isolde kept Connor at Redcliffe. The Baroness of Blackmarsh was a blood mage. The Shame of Serault was a mage. In Ferelden it's even possible for a mage Warden to become Teyrn of Gwaren.

[Wulfram]

Even with the College's existence, mages in southern Thedas aren't going to start inheriting titles...  And it's the noble families that like to keep their mage children around and have the magic kept secret.   It's unlikely that those noble families are going to get to keep their son/daughter at home and have it publicly known they're being trained in magic. The young mage is still going to have to leave their family and go to wherever the College is located.  And that mage isn't going to get to leave unless the College decides to let them...
 
So, essentially, every mage is getting condemned to life imprisonment, either way.  The question is does one prefer mage jailers or Templar jailers.

It's hardly just nobles who hide their mage children. Feynriel, for example. And while Hawke was noble, they weren't exactly trying to preserve the family inheritance.

It seems quite possible to have a more distributed system of mage teaching that limits the distance by which children must be separated from their families.

And if you offer the strong prospect of the process ending in "graduation" and being allowed to resume your life as a free citizen, it's not a life time imprisonment. There is the difficult question of what to do with Mages who never attain sufficient mastery over their magic even after training, but they appear to be a minority.

And preferring mage jailers to templar jailers seems like a no-brainer, anyway. Jailers who don't dehumanise their inmates are good. Jailers who understand magic and it's capabilities are good

[AshenEndymion]

It's hardly just nobles who hide their mage children. Feynriel, for example. And while Hawke was noble, they weren't exactly trying to preserve the family inheritance.

 
Yes, the common folk sometimes hide their mage children, too.  But it's the nobles that have been far more "successful" at being able to keep the Templars from showing up to their houses and taking the children, unlike the common-folk(like Feynriel's mother).  In that, those nobles who try to keep their magic-born children secret don't usually have to move to avoid the Templars.
 

And preferring mage jailers to templar jailers seems like a no-brainer, anyway. Jailers who don't dehumanise their inmates are good. Jailers who understand magic and it's capabilities are good

 
You seem to be under some delusion that mage = good.  Just because the jailer is a mage doesn't mean they wouldn't dehumanize the inmates(think: Uldred or Grace.  I'm sure you'd love to have mages be under their "watchful eye", just as I'd love for mages to be under Alrik's).
 
It also sounds like you believe that the normal people of Thedas cannot understand magic and it's capabilities...  I'd agree that the layman likely can't, but the Templars are trained to defend against it.  It seems likely that they do understand magic.  Enough to imprison the mages.

[Gervaise]

Strangely enough I always think having Vivienne as  Divine is more radical than Cassandra.   Cassandra pretty much wants to keep everything as before, just reform it.   Simply having a mage as Divine is revolutionary for Southern Thedas.   I think Dorian sums it up quite nicely when he says it reminds him of Tevinter without the blood magic.     My main complaint about Vivienne is that she is too cosy with the nobility and that is the status quo she is happy to preserve.   However, if mages are being allowed more power under her, you can bet it will be the nobility's children who rise fastest, closely followed by those who she approves of.     It seems to me that is setting up a situation to develop a model of Tevinter from just before the break with the Orlesian Chantry.

 

Two things that should be borne in mind; Tevinter has Circles that are controlled by the magical hierarchy and mages from lower classes whilst higher in the pecking order than non mages, hardly ever achieve positions of importance.  

 

Tevinter also uses the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment of dissidents.   Dorian confirms this when he asks Cassandra about the rumours that the south has found a cure.   Bear in mind he also states that the only people who get accused of blood magic are those who cross the Magisterium and are likely not guilty of anything other than challenging their power.  

 

So mages governing themselves does not equate to equal and fair treatment of mages.

 

Any of the candidates becoming Divine could lead to a worse outcome than before, particularly if you side with the mages as the rebel leaders are still around to cause problems for a Divine who does not give them what they want.

[In Exile]

Vivienne is just intolerably hypocritical. She judges mages for finding intolerable conditions she was never exposed to or at risk of experiencing, admonishes them for wanting the same things she wants using different means, and otherwise basically holds them responsible for undermining her position. Her views on the circle are more lip service to an ideal than an argument in its favour.

[FiveThreeTen]

Vivienne is just intolerably hypocritical. She judges mages for finding intolerable conditions she was never exposed to or at risk of experiencing, admonishes them for wanting the same things she wants using different means, and otherwise basically holds them responsible for undermining her position. Her views on the circle are more lip service to an ideal than an argument in its favour.

You can find her hypocritical if you want but she WAS exposed to those "intolerable" conditions until a certain point. She passed her Harrowing and the banter with Cole shows that it was quite traumatic for her, and also was handed to a Circle while being very young (Ostwick then Montsimmard).

 

So saying that she has no first hand experience of how Circle life is is just plain wrong.

[leaguer of one]

Vivienne is just intolerably hypocritical. She judges mages for finding intolerable conditions she was never exposed to or at risk of experiencing, admonishes them for wanting the same things she wants using different means, and otherwise basically holds them responsible for undermining her position. Her views on the circle are more lip service to an ideal than an argument in its favour.

1. All circles are different.

2.If you did not get it..ALL CIRCLES ARE DIFFERENT!!!!

 

You have not idea the level of face palm the comment "intolerable conditions for circle mages" brings if you tell this to an aliange elf, a castless dwarf, or any commoner in general. Mage get a warm bed, the highest  education, and food for free were other have to work tooth and nail and pay great sums of money for that. The circles are just a gilded cage and at worse it's a gilded cage run by horrible owners. In that effect every circle is different. Some are great, others are workable and then there's the kirkwall crappy ones.

 

The issues are management.

[Wulfram]

Yes, the common folk sometimes hide their mage children, too.  But it's the nobles that have been far more "successful" at being able to keep the Templars from showing up to their houses and taking the children, unlike the common-folk(like Feynriel's mother).  In that, those nobles who try to keep their magic-born children secret don't usually have to move to avoid the Templars.

I don't really see much evidence of this, and being a prominent individual creates difficulties as well as advantages for avoiding the Templars. For one thing, you can't just move to avoid the Templars, at least not without giving up your noble lifestyle.
 

You seem to be under some delusion that mage = good.  Just because the jailer is a mage doesn't mean they wouldn't dehumanize the inmates(think: Uldred or Grace.  I'm sure you'd love to have mages be under their "watchful eye", just as I'd love for mages to be under Alrik's).

Obviously some people will dehumanise anyone placed under their power because they're bad people. But mages have got an obvious head start for treating the people under their guard with empathy when they're also mages who have gone through the same things, and who can't dehumanise them because they're mages.
 

It also sounds like you believe that the normal people of Thedas cannot understand magic and it's capabilities...  I'd agree that the layman likely can't, but the Templars are trained to defend against it.  It seems likely that they do understand magic.  Enough to imprison the mages.

The Templars never give much sign of understanding magic outside of knowing how to stab demons well. And while they likely are more knowledgeable than laymen, study can't really replace practice. They don't visit the fade, they don't cast spells, they aren't mages and that places them at a disadvantage.

[leaguer of one]

I don't really see much evidence of this, and being a prominent individual creates difficulties as well as advantages for avoiding the Templars. For one thing, you can't just move to avoid the Templars, at least not without giving up your noble lifestyle.
 

 

Hawke,Most of the noble orlisian mages in dai(one even has a shop in Val Royeaux), the blood mage noble in da2, the girl who became  a horror in the villa in a quest in dai.

[Wulfram]

Hawke,Most of the noble orlisian mages in dai(one even has a shop in Val Royeaux), the blood mage noble in da2, the girl who became  a horror in the villa in a quest in dai.

Yeah, but there are non-noble apostates too

[DuskWanderer]

It's quite clear that Vivienne, despite her dialogue otherwise, has a heart. She simply refuses to show it. She is adamant that war harms innocents, and if you try to argue that it needs to be such, she will call you out on it. Further, if you save the staff in Haven, she approves. Only Varric will also approve. Sera, Solas, all the ones who claim to care, don't give a frig. 

 

In regards to the Mage Rebellion, it was the mages themselves that caused this. When Anders blew up the Chantry, a mage later attempted to assassinate the Divine, and Adrian's murder of Pharamond, they prove, just as Vivienne states, they simply aren't worthy of the freedom they have. Responsibilities are key to freedom, and these mages did nothing but murder people. 

 

The templars have their flaws (and Vivienne says outright that mages have every right to demand templars be held accountable for their faults), but the mages think themselves above the law. Compare what happens in the game. The templars either go on the red stuff out of ignorance, or they are quite literally held down and forced on it (or killed). The mages join the Imperium and the Venatori willingly. 

[The Baconer]

The templars either go on the red stuff out of ignorance, or they are quite literally held down and forced on it (or killed).

 

Yes, all the Templars use Red Lyrium out of ignorance or because they were forced. Except for the one's who didn't.

 

 

The mages join the Imperium and the Venatori willingly. 

 

Yes, all the mages joined the blah blah etc.

[DuskWanderer]

Yes, all the Templars use Red Lyrium out of ignorance or because they were forced. Except for the one's who didn't.

 

 

 

Yes, all the mages joined the blah blah etc.

 

The only one who is proven to know it is Denam, an outright villain. Several codexes prove they don't know what it is. Yet we can already see several mages openly relishing the idea of an alliance with Tevinter. Do you wish to argue facts, or just cry?

[The Baconer]

The only one who is proven to know it is Denam, an outright villain. Several codexes prove they don't know what it is.

 

The officers, including Denam, were complicit. The Templars in Kirkwall started taking it when they of all people know best what it does. Then there's Red Templar Knight codex.

 

Yet we can already see several mages openly relishing the idea of an alliance with Tevinter. Do you wish to argue facts, or just cry?

 

Which ones, mr. Facts?

[In Exile]

You can find her hypocritical if you want but she WAS exposed to those "intolerable" conditions until a certain point. She passed her Harrowing and the banter with Cole shows that it was quite traumatic for her, and also was handed to a Circle while being very young (Ostwick then Montsimmard).

So saying that she has no first hand experience of how Circle life is is just plain wrong.

I didn't say she had no firsthand experience of Circle life. I said she had no experience of the conditions she chastises mages for rebelling against. And she doesn't. When the templars cracked down on mages post-Kirkwall she lived in the lap of luxury in the Orlesian court as the mistress of one of the most powerful nobles in the realm. She has no moral authority to criticise mages for what they did after Kirkwall.

[In Exile]

1. All circles are different.
2.If you did not get it..ALL CIRCLES ARE DIFFERENT!!!!

You have not idea the level of face palm the comment "intolerable conditions for circle mages" brings if you tell this to an aliange elf, a castless dwarf, or any commoner in general. Mage get a warm bed, the highest education, and food for free were other have to work tooth and nail and pay great sums of money for that. The circles are just a gilded cage and at worse it's a gilded cage run by horrible owners. In that effect every circle is different. Some are great, others are workable and then there's the kirkwall crappy ones.

The issues are management.

The fact that some groups have even MORE reason to rebell against their abuse masters doesn't mean the mages didn't have cause to rebel against their masters. More importantly, it doesn't matter what you think the mages conditions were - Vivienne had absolutely no moral authority to critise since she didn't live in any of those circles but instead lived in luxury so obscene she made King Alistair look like an impoverished peasant.

[Dai Grepher]

It can be reasoned that those willing to go to war about:

1)Circles existing at all

2)Templars existing at all

3)A Mage being Divine

 

After all of the events that have happened, really are malcontents. A minimizing term, yes, but possibly true. 

 

Negative approval Vivienne is an utter mess, arguably worse and/or more brutal (or equal, or only slightly better) than hardened Leliana.

 

But positive approval Vivienne doesn't really screw that much up. What - she wants things to be sorted out more with more stability for all? Then like a politician, I don't really care about your internal feelings, just do the job and make things good for everyone.

 

Somewhat oppressive Templars in Ferelden and screwed up Templars in Free Marches (I'll never forget the Enigma of Kirkwall and its possible effects on EVERYTHING) are not all that matters (and I chose Mages in both games BTW). DAI lore also matters and wider lore matters as well. By and large, for centuries, the Circles and Templars have kept things stable, and that's all that most people, mage or non-mage in Thedas, cares about.

 

Don't forget that there is a third outcome for Leliana. If you don't do her quest at all, then she does not respond to the Chantry rebellion with either persuasion or force, and the result is that the Chantry is on the verge of being destroyed forever.

 

I also think softened Leliana has a potentially fatal weakness. Her faith was shattered with Justinia's death. It showed that she isn't capable of keeping herself on the path, let alone guiding others along it during times of crisis. All it would take to break softened Leliana is another personal tragedy. Such as... the Hero dying at some point after Inquisition? Especially if they were lovers.

 

Vivienne is the only one of the three that I see being able to lead and direct in times of crisis. Cass couldn't do it. She had to rely on Solas to explain things, and then the Inquisitor to lead. Vivienne knows how to move people to her will, and she understands that templars can be cruel sometimes. So she keeps them on their best behavior, and any mage who isn't satisfied with that gets dealt with severely because like she said, she has seen bad mages too.

 

But I agree that her attitude seems quite nasty, at least after being named Divine. It was like she turned into a witch and was even semi-rude to my Inquisitor as soon as she gained the title. It almost seemed like she was pretending to be a friend that whole time. I think this side of her was just for appearances though.
 

[StrangerPasingBy]

The best ending for stability would be Divine Leliana with mages as conscripts. That way the Inquisition would become the new templars of sort. Minus the fanatism and abuses.

 

Vivienne arguments, in my opinion are weak, as her opinions don't come from genuine concern, but that mages having their way would put her confortable lifestyle to risk. And considering that the ending with either Leliana and Cassandra as Divine end up as much less bloody then Vivienne's is quite telling.

 

I agree with this. Her arguments were really weak considering they could literally be used in any scenario:

 

-A mage goes rouge starts killing people. What's the difference between that and a skilled warrior doing the same. Nothing

 

-A mages accident cause people hatred to grow against the mages. Same with elves. Their lifestyle suck already for those in the alienage and they do one bad thing and there goes the stereotype.

 

About the only good argument was the child not knowing what he is capable off. Hence why if I really could say my idea in the game it would be a combination of both. Let mages be free but have circles that act like grade school where if a child is found capable of doing magic that child would be mandated to go to the circle to learn to control his power and once of age and after showing his full control of magic he is allowed to leave and live freely like everyone else.

 

Ultimately I went with a softened leliana to be divine as I agree all should be free because everyone is capable of killing and alienating a certain group of people for whatever reason is wrong.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

-A mage goes rouge starts killing people. What's the difference between that and a skilled warrior doing the same. Nothing

 

That is so untrue it's not even funny.

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah. Aside from magnitude of the attack, the warrior also leaves a trail of evidence behind. A mage can engulf a room full of people in flames from the other side of a wall and not even be seen. Then come the accusations of who the mage MIGHT be, and innocent people get roped into it.

[Lumix19]

Yeah. Aside from magnitude of the attack, the warrior also leaves a trail of evidence behind. A mage can engulf a room full of people in flames from the other side of a wall and not even be seen. Then come the accusations of who the mage MIGHT be, and innocent people get roped into it.

I'm not sure what this argument is about but you can accomplish the same thing with poison you know or really any kind of trap.

[Iakus]

Vivienne is just intolerably hypocritical. She judges mages for finding intolerable conditions she was never exposed to or at risk of experiencing, admonishes them for wanting the same things she wants using different means, and otherwise basically holds them responsible for undermining her position. Her views on the circle are more lip service to an ideal than an argument in its favour.

Wait, Vivienne's a mage, why isn't she at risk of experiencing these things?

 

Heck she stayed loyal to the Chantry when the whole civil war thing went down.  You'd think that would put her at more risk, as she's a mage within reach. 

 

Her views on the circle are not based on an "ideal" it based on her own personal experience.  This is the life she lived within the Circle system, and she doesn't see why other mages can't experience it too.  Heck from the sound of things, with her as Divine, she makes it easier for the other mages to life that life too.