262 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

And since when giving in to the rebels led to a better way? It only makes them always wanting more.

You know the word compromise? That's what I mean, you don't acquiesce, you find mutual ground and work it out from there.

[Lumix19]

The point is that without the Divine blatantly favouring the mages and sabotaging efforts to contain the threat, the number of Templars and Seekers who would have taken Lambert's side over hers would have been greatly diminished.

So basically if the Divine had done nothing and had stood with Lambert the whole time. In which case there wouldn't even be two different sides.

What do you suggest the Divine could have done better to enact reform but prevent rebellion?

[Boost32]

You know the word compromise? That's what I mean, you don't acquiesce, you find mutual ground and work it out from there.

The rebels don't want compromise they want complete freedom, the templars wants them to go back to the Circles, there was no way to find a common around, specially after Anders and 2 atempts on the Divine's life.

[Boost32]

What do you suggest the Divine could have done better to enact reform but prevent rebellion?

First: let people forget about the mage threat
Second: don't kill your own soldiers

[Lumix19]

The rebels don't want compromise they want complete freedom, the templars wants them to cimpromise, there was no way to find a common around, soecually after Anders and 2 atempts on the Divine's life.

The Templars didn't want compromise, they wanted the Circles to remain exactly the way they are. The libertarians did want freedom that's true. So in the end, as I said before, it was two extremists pushing for war and the moderates who got caught up in it. But perhaps compromise wasn't possible, what then is the solution?

[MisterJB]

In which case any division would cause constant conflict. Yet there are a myriad of things that divide us, gender, religion, orientation, race but societies can still exist in, relative, harmony. And that's through changing prejudice, through increased contact (the contact hypothesis), recategorization, mutual interdependence etc. And by having systems of government that try to balance the needs of all these groups rather than just favoring one.

Just because we aren't killing each other doesn't mean we aren't in constant conflict.

Through political influences, through the economy, through the movements of populations, etc.

Certainly, there can be harmony between individuals but, in the large scheme of things, we are always in conflict.

[Lumix19]

First: let people forget about the mage threat
Second: don't kill your own soldiers

The actions of the Templars had nothing to do with whether people remembered the mage threat. It was to do with Lambert believing he knew better than the Chantry. And if the Divine didn't send in Leliana, what would you propose instead? Perhaps she should just ask nicely that the Mages be released? She was trying to remain relatively neutral, favoring neither side overtly, trying to take both perspectives into account but Lambert was refusing to be cooperative. The mages with Wynne were ready for reform, the Templars under Lambert were not.

[Lumix19]

Just because we aren't killing each other doesn't mean we aren't in constant conflict.
Through political influences, through the economy, through the movements of populations, etc.
Certainly, there can be harmony between individuals but, in the large scheme of things, we are always in conflict.

Isn't not killing each other the point? Oppression won't bring an end to the killing, it will just perpetuate it. At least compromise will bring about some form of peace, they may still dislike each other, but at least they're peaceful.

[MisterJB]

So basically if the Divine had done nothing and had stood with Lambert the whole time. In which case there wouldn't even be two different sides.

What do you suggest the Divine could have done better to enact reform but prevent rebellion?

Anything would be preferable to releasing every single First Enchanter without any supervision after they had just tried to vote on starting a war. By killing Templars, no less. I'm having a hard time thinking of something more apt to start the war.

 

As for what I suggest, what reforms are we talking about? At which point in time? Before Asunder? After? During? Before the Enchanter gathering? After?

[Lumix19]

Anything would be preferable to releasing every single First Enchanter without any supervision after they had just tried to vote on starting a war. By killing Templars, no less. I'm having a hard time thinking of something more apt to start the war.
 
As for what I suggest, what reforms are we talking about? At which point in time? Before Asunder? After? During? Before the Enchanter gathering? After?

During Asunder. Would you have allowed the Conclave? How would you have reacted to Lambert's imprisonment of the mages?

[MisterJB]

Isn't not killing each other the point? Oppression won't bring an end to the killing, it will just perpetuate it. At least compromise will bring about some form of peace, they may still dislike each other, but at least they're peaceful.

If not killing each other is the only point then Tevinter or the Circle are perfectly acceptable.

If not killing each other is the only point then Tranquilizing every mage would do it just fine.

Evidently, there is much else at stake besides simply living. Sovereignty, prosperity, freedom, self determination,pride, etc.

[Boost32]

The Templars didn't want compromise, they wanted the Circles to remain exactly the way they are. The libertarians did want freedom that's true. So in the end, as I said before, it was two extremists pushing for war and the moderates who got caught up in it. But perhaps compromise wasn't possible, what then is the solution?

There is no solution. When 2 sides want opposites things they either go to war or the weaker side backdown.

The actions of the Templars had nothing to do with whether people remembered the mage threat. It was to do with Lambert believing he knew better than the Chantry. And if the Divine didn't send in Leliana, what would you propose instead? Perhaps she should just ask nicely that the Mages be released? She was trying to remain relatively neutral, favoring neither side overtly, trying to take both perspectives into account but Lambert was refusing to be cooperative. The mages with Wynne were ready for reform, the Templars under Lambert were not.

She wasnt neutral and when she killed the templars, she gave Lambert the excuse he needed to leave the Chantry, she made things worse.
She should had demanded the release of the first enchenters, if she was too weak to control her own people she should had stepped down as Divine.

[Lumix19]

If not killing each other is the only point then Tevinter or the Circle are perfectly acceptable.
If not killing each other is the only point then Tranquilizing every mage would do it just fine.
Evidently, there is much else at stake for living. Sovereignty, prosperity, freedom, self determination,pride, etc.

Except neither are. Slave rebellions go on in Tevinter and blood is sacrificed to fuel the greed of the Magisters. And the Circle has bred rebellion, not exactly peaceful and certainly a lot of killing. Tranquilizing every mage would work except that would immediately start a war with how much loss of life? And it could never happen anyway, Thedas needs magic too much. Certainly you could condemn all Mages to the sword to end the conflict, drown them as babies when their magic is developed, that would bring about peace, but is that a stance you're willing to support?

[Lumix19]

There is no solution. When 2 sides want opposites things they either go to war or the weaker side backdown.
She wasnt neutral and when she killed the templars, she gave Lambert the excuse he needed to leave the Chantry, she made things worse.
She should had demanded the release of the first enchenters, if she was too weak to control her own people she should had stepped down as Divine.

Then war is inevitable in your view? Perhaps it was. It doesn't mean there can't be a compromise after the war.
Lambert and the Templars were never really her people. All the Chantry has is words, how could they have convinced Lambert to release the mages? Authority won't work since Lambert obviously wasn't listening to her at that point anyway. He literally called the Divine a fool.

[MisterJB]

During Asunder. Would you have allowed the Conclave? How would you have reacted to Lambert's imprisonment of the mages?

I would have allowed the conclave but would have included every Knight Commander and given them the right to vote; plus the Divine and Lord Seeker. Thus, Fiona could no longer plot behind their back. For security, I would have hired an independent mercenary organization to keep Templars and mages apart.

 

 

As for how I would have reacted, I see two options.

 

Option a) I could order him to execute all First Enchanters and tell the world they had been punished for attempting an insurrection against the Chantry which would be the truth, in fact.

Then, reinforce the Templars both with recruits and mercenaries to deal with the inevitable mage backlash. The priority would be to prevent any tower from contacting each other.

Once things calmed down, hire the Crows to be rid of Lambert and try to enact reforms all over again.

 

Option Hire some mage I trust and task him with releasing a small army of demons inside the White Spire. After the Templars have dealt with them and killed the mage responsible, it would be reported that a Resolutionist had infiltrated the conclave and the First Enchanter plus Lord Seeker Lambert had all perished fighting bravely to stop them from leaving the White Spire and harming the people of Val Royeaux.

Afterwards, I would try to divert attentions from both Templars and mages into conducting a veritable witch hunt against the Resolutionists who would become scapegoats. I would enact reform by promising privileges to Loyalists and Aequitarians who helped root out "Resolutionist" elements from the Libertarian fraternity when, in reality, I would be attempting to favour mages more likely to work with me while removing the most troublesome elements.

[SwobyJ]

This reminds me - it'll be a wacky DA story in an Antiva where assassinating others isn't just a thing you run into doing (DAO/DA2) or occasionally may be able to set up (DAI), but is part of everyday life. How tempting such a path may be..

 

Carry on.

[Lumix19]

I would have allowed the conclave but would have included every Knight Commander and given them the right to vote; plus the Divine and Lord Seeker. Thus, Fiona could no longer plot behind their back. For security, I would have hired an independent mercenary organization to keep Templars and mages apart.
 
 
As for how I would have reacted, I see two options.
 
Option a) I could order him to execute all First Enchanters and tell the world they had been punished for attempting an insurrection against the Chantry which would be the truth, in fact.
Then, reinforce the Templars both with recruits and mercenaries to deal with the inevitable mage backlash. The priority would be to prevent any tower from contacting each other.
Once things calmed down, hire the Crows to be rid of Lambert and try to enact reforms all over again.
 
Option Hire some mage I trust and task him with releasing a small army of demons inside the White Spire. After the Templars have dealt with them and killed the mage responsible, it would be reported that a Resolutionist had infiltrated the conclave and the First Enchanter plus Lord Seeker Lambert had all perished fighting bravely to stop them from leaving the White Spire and harming the people of Val Royeaux.
Afterwards, I would try to divert attentions from both Templars and mages into conducting a veritable witch hunt against the Resolutionists who would become scapegoats. I would enact reform by promising privileges to Loyalists and Aequitarians who helped root out "Resolutionist" elements from the Libertarian fraternity when, in reality, I would be attempting to favour mages more likely to work with me while removing the most troublesome elements.

Interesting. I note both of these start with Lambert's death.

[Boost32]

Then war is inevitable in your view? Perhaps it was. It doesn't mean there can't be a compromise after the war.
Lambert and the Templars were never really her people. All the Chantry has is words, how could they have convinced Lambert to release the mages? Authority won't work since Lambert obviously wasn't listening to her at that point anyway. He literally called the Divine a fool.

It was inevitable because the leader of the each factions were incompetents fools trying to push their own agenda instead reaching a compromise. And tell me what the mages would compromise? The only things you suggest is the templars to give in, but what the mages would lose to compensate the other part?

 

The tamplars were the military branch of the Chantry, but Justinia only alienated them, she claimed neutrality but always undermined Lambert, when she killed the templars it was the excuse he needed to convince the others to leave. For the first time in almost 900 years the templars rebelled against the Chantry, never before they defied the orders of the clerics, Justinia's incompetence made it possible, And the Divine can control the templars, just look at Cassandra (her templars can accept the College of Enchanters) and Viviene (her templars follow a mage), but they are competent person, unlikely Justinia.

[MisterJB]

Interesting. I note both of these start with Lambert's death.

You asked me to place myself in the position of Divine.

In such a case, given that Lambert went against the spirit of the Divine's orders and that he has tremendous sway over the Chantry's armed forces, obviously he has to go.

 

Myself, I would rather just kill the First Enchanters and invent a story. Then try to turn the Loyalists and Aequitarians against the Libertarians. If some Circle rebels, Rite of Annulment.

Annul them all if need be, the next generation will think twice before attempting an insurrection. 

[NaclynE]

You asked me to place myself in the position of Divine.

In such a case, given that Lambert went against the spirit of the Divine's orders and that he has tremendous sway over the Chantry's armed forces, obviously he has to go.

 

Myself, I would rather just kill the First Enchanters and invent a story. Then try to turn the Loyalists and Aequitarians against the Libertarians. If some Circle rebels, Rite of Annulment.

Annul them all if need be, the next generation will think twice before attempting an insurrection. 

 

Honestly if I were to put myself as divine I would have the mages run free however they would need to use their magic with some form of control and I would have them still go to the circles. I wouldn't abolish the templars because if there would be another Uldred then who better to use then templars. However templar wise I would do whatever it takes that they do not pull a Meredeth. I would take action against a templar or templars who go way out of line.

 

In a sense I felt Anders in DA 2 was kind of right for hating the one divine in Kirkwall just standing around and do nothing and pray for a peaceful resolution with Meredeth was made insane from the red lyrium. I am the type of person who would take action to seek a resolution and not to stand still and let things play out. However Anders was wrong for blowing up the divine. terrorism isn't the means to solve every situation. If politics do not work then try to find the means to remove the person from power. If they become tyranical then yeah maybe they need to be 'removed'.

[Iakus]

Cassandra admits herself that the Seekers have never truly been beholden to the Divine. She also says that the Templars and Seekers rebelled because it was felt that the Divine had 'tacitly allowed the Mages to vote on their independence', hence they refused to accept change and the direction the Divine was heading in. They thought they knew better than the Chantry and that they were doing the Maker's work. The outcome would have been the same if the reforms had gone ahead. The Divine would be seen as interfering with the sacred duty of the Templars and they would have pressured her and the Chantry into aligning with their stance. Add a desire to craft a new supreme Templar order and Lambert would have had an army to rival most in Thedas. The dissolution of the Nevarran Accords were mere technicalities, even if they had remained Lambert would have ensured that the power rested with the Seekers, not the Chantry.

Or maybe that's how they interpreted Justinia letting the mages escape after Lambert went nuts at the Conclave when Fiona and Adrian hijacked it.

 

If they hadn't.  If reforms had gone ahead as Justinia had planned, this may not have happened.  Perhaps Lambert would have been p*ssed, but there would have been nothing he could have done about it.  If he rebelled, few would have followed.  He only got the bulk of the Templars and Seekers to follow him because there were suddenly hundreds of apostates fleeing the Circles.

 

Justinia was not Beatrix.  She was not a puppet of the Templars.  She had her own mind, 

[Lumix19]

It was inevitable because the leader of the each factions were incompetents fools trying to push their own agenda instead reaching a compromise. And tell me what the mages would compromise? The only things you suggest is the templars to give in, but what the mages would lose to compensate the other part?

The tamplars were the military branch of the Chantry, but Justinia only alienated them, she claimed neutrality but always undermined Lambert, when she killed the templars it was the excuse he needed to convince the others to leave. For the first time in almost 900 years the templars rebelled against the Chantry, never before they defied the orders of the clerics, Justinia's incompetence made it possible, And the Divine can control the templars, just look at Cassandra (her templars can accept the College of Enchanters) and Viviene (her templars follow a mage), but they are competent person, unlikely Justinia.

She undermined the Templars precisely because they weren't willing to compromise. They had their idea of what the Maker's will was and that was whatever they wanted to do. Wynne and the other Aequitarians wanted a compromise, they wanted reform without breaking away from the Chantry. In the end all that Lambert did was push the Aequitarians into the arms of the libertarians in an attempt to escape his tyranny. But the templars who follow the new Divine are those that are rescued or joined the Inquisition willingly, they have the true vision of the templars in mind. They also don't have the Seekers to lead them anymore. Justinia wasn't weak, she just couldn't contend with the extremist elements of the organisation which had become part of every level. She couldn't control them because they had become uncontrollable, fixated on the belief that only they had all the answers. The Seekers may have been happy to serve the Divine for hundreds of years but the moment they felt like they were being coerced into accepting reforms, into aligning with the Divine's wishes, they closed ranks and rebelled.

[Lumix19]

Or maybe that's how they interpreted Justinia letting the mages escape after Lambert went nuts at the Conclave when Fiona and Adrian hijacked it.

If they hadn't. If reforms had gone ahead as Justinia had planned, this may not have happened. Perhaps Lambert would have been p*ssed, but there would have been nothing he could have done about it. If he rebelled, few would have followed. He only got the bulk of the Templars and Seekers to follow him because there were suddenly hundreds of apostates fleeing the Circles.

Justinia was not Beatrix. She was not a puppet of the Templars. She had her own mind,

Perhaps but I think that's a stretch. In my mind Cassandra was referring to the Divine allowing the Conclave to convene, ostensibly to discuss Tranquility but in reality it was to vote on independence. This felt like coercion to the Seekers, like they were being coerced into falling in line with the Divine's views, so they closed ranks and rebelled and damned be the consequences. Justinia was not a puppet, but she was arrayed against forces that felt like they had all the answers and didn't like being controlled. That's why Lucius lost faith in the Seekers, because he saw what they had become and Cassandra does too, that's why she wants to reform it.

[Lumix19]

You asked me to place myself in the position of Divine.

In such a case, given that Lambert went against the spirit of the Divine's orders and that he has tremendous sway over the Chantry's armed forces, obviously he has to go.

 

Myself, I would rather just kill the First Enchanters and invent a story. Then try to turn the Loyalists and Aequitarians against the Libertarians. If some Circle rebels, Rite of Annulment.

Annul them all if need be, the next generation will think twice before attempting an insurrection. 

If you're of such a mind why even bother having a next generation? Just drown them as infants. Because there won't stop being rebellions. And the genocide of an entire people strikes me as completely immoral.

 

But sadly it is as Morrigan says: Mankind is content to go around crushing everything they don't understand. Elves, dragons and magic itself.

[sim-ran]

There's some really good points on this thread and some really interesting perspectives. Sadly they are often supported by or based on correct lore that is plain stupid.

It's a bit of shame really. The mage dilemna, the concept of the circles, templars, harrowing, gilded cage vs life of education and safety are all really interesting and multifaceted. But it all gets a bit ruined for the sake of gameplay.

Lets face it, the actions of the mage and templar factions in game are completely derpy, and more than half the time are nothing more than hamfisted ways of giving the player mobs to fight or a big 'either A or B' decision.