262 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

If you're of such a mind why even bother having a next generation? Just drown them as infants. Because there won't stop being rebellions. And the genocide of an entire people strikes me as completely immoral.

But sadly it is as Morrigan says: Mankind is content to go around crushing everything they don't understand. Elves, dragons and magic itself.

People understand magic just fine. It's because they know how dangerous it is that they wish to control it. The alternative is mages like Erimond given leave to do what they please. That is Tevinter.
What I was referring were extreme measuresmeant to prevent a terrible war that could bring back Tevinter in the long term. If there are other rebellions, we crush them as well.
That doesn't mean we should make drowning kids as government policy for the rest of time before they are even given a chance to decide what they want to do with their magic. It's barbaric.

Would it surprise you to learn that Morrigan and Kieran are my canon Warden's family?

Besides, só long as darkspawn and Tevinter and the qunari havê mages, we need them as well.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah that's pretty much the big problem with Vivienne's position. Ironically, it's the fearful mages we can meet in Redcliffe that might give us a better case, and even then, they prefer the Circle largely out of fear of death or lynching that would make up the likeliest alternatives.

[Lumix19]

People understand magic just fine. It's because they know how dangerous it is that they wish to control it. The alternative is mages like Erimond given leave to do what they please. That is Tevinter.
What I was referring were extreme measuresmeant to prevent a terrible war that could bring back Tevinter in the long term. If there are other rebellions, we crush them as well.
That doesn't mean we should make drowning kids as government policy for the rest of time before they are even given a chance to decide what they want to do with their magic. It's barbaric.

Would it surprise you to learn that Morrigan and Kieran are my canon Warden's family?

Besides, só long as darkspawn and Tevinter and the qunari havê mages, we need them as well.

I disagree I think most people don't understand magic, they don't know what it can do, they don't know what mages have to go through, hell some Templars can't even tell the difference between a stick and a mage's staff. But like fire, magic is dangerous, and as long as you can understand it and learn to handle it in an appropriate way it doesn't have to be scary. You don't have to ignore the blindingly obvious truth which is that it is dangerous, but you don't have to react out of fear to it either. It's really Tevinter, they really give magic as a whole a bad name. I do think though that there is a medium between Tevinter and the Circle.

 

And I'm not surprised about Morrigan and Kieran, did you save the Old God soul then?

[Boost32]

She undermined the Templars precisely because they weren't willing to compromise. They had their idea of what the Maker's will was and that was whatever they wanted to do. Wynne and the other Aequitarians wanted a compromise, they wanted reform without breaking away from the Chantry. In the end all that Lambert did was push the Aequitarians into the arms of the libertarians in an attempt to escape his tyranny. But the templars who follow the new Divine are those that are rescued or joined the Inquisition willingly, they have the true vision of the templars in mind. They also don't have the Seekers to lead them anymore. Justinia wasn't weak, she just couldn't contend with the extremist elements of the organisation which had become part of every level. She couldn't control them because they had become uncontrollable, fixated on the belief that only they had all the answers. The Seekers may have been happy to serve the Divine for hundreds of years but the moment they felt like they were being coerced into accepting reforms, into aligning with the Divine's wishes, they closed ranks and rebelled.

And what she did with Fiona and Adrian? Those 2 didnt wanted a compromise too, and she did nothing.
Tell me why the templars should accept the compromise? In this "compromise" their side gains nothing and the mages gains everything, this is not a compromise.

If Justinia cant control her own man and need to assassinate them she is weak, the templars recruited at Therinfal were the same who served her. Look at Cassandra she rally the remaing Seekers and they follow her withouth question, because they trust her and she is competent, Justinia couldnt do that.

Her argument falls flat for me since Vivienne herself doesn't have to live in isolation or abide by the same Chantry rules she spouts for other mages.
 
In fact, she enjoys more freedoms and privileges than most non-mages. She has power, influence, political connections, lives in a palace, is the mistress of a powerful noble, frequents court and parties, and apparently can go wherever she wants without a Templar constantly hovering over her shoulder. For all her talk that mages should stay in Circles, she herself doesn't have to stay confined in a Circle. For all her talk that mages need to be regulated, she herself doesn't have to be regulated every second of every day. For example, we see her use magic to freeze (and possibly kill?) a man for insulting a guest "at my party, in my home." Such behavior would get most other "Circle" mages cracked down on and possibly killed by an ever-vigilant Templars faster than you could blink.
 
Of course she supports the Circle and Chantry regulations; she doesn't have to live there or deal with them.

Vivienne didnt always have her privilegies, she was a normal Circle mage, every freedom she has its because she showed herself trustworth.
And she was the First Enchanter of Montsimmard, if she didnt live in the Circle she couldnt do her job (but ofc she could leave wherever she wanted). If made Divine she gives every mage the same opportunity she had, so why she dont believe in what she says?

[Lumix19]

And what she did with Fiona and Adrian? Those 2 didnt wanted a compromise too, and she did nothing.
Tell me why the templars should accept the compromise? In this "compromise" their side gains nothing and the mages gains everything, this is not a compromise.

If Justinia cant control her own man and need to assassinate them she is weak, the templars recruited at Therinfal were the same who served her. Look at Cassandra she rally the remaing Seekers and they follow her withouth question, because they trust her and she is competent, Justinia couldnt do that.

Vivienne didnt always have her privilegies, she was a normal Circle mage, every freedom she has its because she showed herself trustworth.
And she was the First Enchanter of Montsimmard, if she didnt live in the Circle she couldnt do her job (but ofc she could leave wherever she wanted). If made Divine she gives every mage the same opportunity she had, so why she dont believe in what she says?

I think the point of the vote was to shut Adrian and Fiona down. If Wynne had convinced the Aequitarians to vote with the loyalists against dissolution, on the promise of reforms in the future, then Adrian and Fiona would have been unable to do anything about it. If they did choose to rebel regardless they would have no valid claims and the Circle could disown them.
This situation isn't about winning or losing, gaining or not gaining, it's about peace. Justinia was trying to forge a lasting peace by enacting reforms to appease the mages whilst still retaining the Circle to appease the Templars. They should accept this compromise in the name of peace, not just for tomorrow but for years to come. Instead they got war and all the pain and tragedy that comes with that. Both Adrian and Lambert wanted it and damned be the people who got caught in the middle.

Most of the Seekers were dead and the order was in shambles after what Corypheus did to them and that they were betrayed by Lucius. It is not comparable to say Justinia was weak and Cassandra strong because the situations are completely different. The templars and Seekers were in pieces, it's not hard to pick them up and forge them into something new like Cassandra and Vivienne did. Justinia however was working with the Templars and Seekers before the war, before Corypheus and when they felt they could do no wrong. It's not the same.

Vivienne wasn't part of the Circle, she says so herself. That's why she wasn't compelled to rebel. She did live at the Circle years ago and quickly left, thanks to Duke Bastien's patronage, but I don't think that qualifies her to be so judgemental. It's like saying First Enchanter Illana knew what it was like to be an everyday Circle mage.

[Iakus]

Perhaps but I think that's a stretch. In my mind Cassandra was referring to the Divine allowing the Conclave to convene, ostensibly to discuss Tranquility but in reality it was to vote on independence. This felt like coercion to the Seekers, like they were being coerced into falling in line with the Divine's views, so they closed ranks and rebelled and damned be the consequences. Justinia was not a puppet, but she was arrayed against forces that felt like they had all the answers and didn't like being controlled. That's why Lucius lost faith in the Seekers, because he saw what they had become and Cassandra does too, that's why she wants to reform it.

Except Justinia, in Lambert's presence, told the mages that they were to limit their discussions to Tranquility and the recently discovered cure.  Not to vote on independence.  As I said, Fiona hijacked the conclave.  Justinia was interested in reforming teh Circles, but what reforms were never revealed, thankyouverymuch, Adrian.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Her argument falls flat for me since Vivienne herself doesn't have to live in isolation or abide by the same Chantry rules she spouts for other mages.

 

In fact, she enjoys more freedoms and privileges than most non-mages. She has power, influence, political connections, lives in a palace, is the mistress of a powerful noble, frequents court and parties, and apparently can go wherever she wants without a Templar constantly hovering over her shoulder. For all her talk that mages should stay in Circles, she herself doesn't have to stay confined in a Circle. For all her talk that mages need to be regulated, she herself doesn't have to be regulated every second of every day. For example, we see her use magic to freeze (and possibly kill?) a man for insulting a guest "at my party, in my home." Such behavior would get most other "Circle" mages cracked down on and possibly killed by an ever-vigilant Templars faster than you could blink.

 

Of course she supports the Circle and Chantry regulations; she doesn't have to live there or deal with them.

 

I love this argument.

 

Vivienne, who worked within the system and earned her place in society through it, is somehow incapable of understanding the flaws of the Circle because her experiences must have skewed her opinion (never mind this is plain false because she does acknowledge the flaws in the system)...

 

... but mages that did not have a good experience in the Circle? Totally the place to look for an unbiased perspective....

[Iakus]

Her argument falls flat for me since Vivienne herself doesn't have to live in isolation or abide by the same Chantry rules she spouts for other mages.

 

In fact, she enjoys more freedoms and privileges than most non-mages. She has power, influence, political connections, lives in a palace, is the mistress of a powerful noble, frequents court and parties, and apparently can go wherever she wants without a Templar constantly hovering over her shoulder. For all her talk that mages should stay in Circles, she herself doesn't have to stay confined in a Circle. For all her talk that mages need to be regulated, she herself doesn't have to be regulated every second of every day. For example, we see her use magic to freeze (and possibly kill?) a man for insulting a guest "at my party, in my home." Such behavior would get most other "Circle" mages cracked down on and possibly killed by an ever-vigilant Templars faster than you could blink.

 

Of course she supports the Circle and Chantry regulations; she doesn't have to live there or deal with them.

Actually, Vivienne does have to live by the same rules as the other Circle mages.  She is a Circle mage.  Other privileges she earned she did on her own.  The power, connections, and such she got despite being a mage.  Court-enchanter was little more than a jester role until she made it something greater.  

 

She doesn't have a Templar following her around because she earned that trust.  It's something any mage can obtain.

 

 Particularly in a Circle as permissive as Montsimmard.  And it just so happens Vivienne is the First Enchanter of that Circle.  And as Divine, it sounds like she spreads that permissiveness to other Circles.

[General TSAR]

People's hatred, was something that the Chantry lovingly encouraged for generations.

Wasn't hard when you've been living under the brutal occupation of the Tevinter Imperium.

[Jaison1986]

Gotta love how people boast about Vivienne "acomplishments", as if sleeping around with some married guy to gain influence is some sort of noble deed. She would still be court jester if it weren't for Bastien.

[Iakus]

Gotta love how people boast about Vivienne "acomplishments", as if sleeping around with some married guy to gain influence is some sort of noble deed. She would still be court jester if it weren't for Bastien.

Pretty sure Celene has more say in the authority of her own court enchanter.

[Jaison1986]

Pretty sure Celene has more say in the authority of her own court enchanter.

 

Oh? But she only raised Vivienne because Bastien gave her importance. She was a nobody before that. Not to mention Celene didn't seem to broken up about discarding Vivienne for Morrigan.

[Iakus]

Oh? But she only raised Vivienne because Bastien gave her importance. She was a nobody before that. Not to mention Celene didn't seem to broken up about discarding Vivienne for Morrigan.

You know this how?

 

And Celene didn't discard Vivienne.  She took on a secret adviser because she had a personal interest in the occult: omens, prophecy, and other matters the Circle frowned upon or simply didn't bother with.  So she took in an apostate who was better learned in these matters.  For obvious reasons, this had to be kept quiet.  But she still had Vivienne as her court enchanter for official duties.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Arguably, 'blood running down the halls' with Leliana can be viewed as more bloody than (with positive approval with Vivi)  'an uproar', 'war' (with surrendering), 'fury'.

 

Sounds like a Hardened Leliana makes things consistently violent no matter what (to keep her order maintained), whereas a High Approval Vivienne may strike hard and fast (and yes, violent) but it doesn't continue for long.

 

I'd say its possible that a Hardened Leliana is more bloody than any Vivienne. Its just that Leliana, of course, doesn't have to be Hardened.

 

Cassandra is the least bloody but there's also more of an impression of a troubled/uncertain rule no matter what. This troubled rule can still be awesome depending on choices though. It goes the least for rapid changes of any sort, whether immediately or sustained.

 

 

It's not just the mages that a harden Leliana deals with violence, it's others that object to her ideas in the Chantry itself. Or in other words it's her way or the grave a hardened Leliana sees her role as Divine in a "Order will be maintained no matter the cost." type kind of role and will use to violence as her first and maybe her only option even when she knows that could make the Chantry's already battered rep even worse and many will think that she's acting like a tyrant.

 

The gentle Leliana (I don't think she's soft or particularly enlightened) is still willing to use violence but only as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted or as Josie tells Leliana: "Niceness before knives" but I think she will still use violence a lot in either case.   

[MisterJB]

I disagree I think most people don't understand magic, they don't know what it can do, they don't know what mages have to go through, hell some Templars can't even tell the difference between a stick and a mage's staff. But like fire, magic is dangerous, and as long as you can understand it and learn to handle it in an appropriate way it doesn't have to be scary. You don't have to ignore the blindingly obvious truth which is that it is dangerous, but you don't have to react out of fear to it either. It's really Tevinter, they really give magic as a whole a bad name. I do think though that there is a medium between Tevinter and the Circle.

Sure, people might not understand the esoteric aspects of magic much but they know enough. They know that random people are given the abilities to kill you with fire or ice or electricity. Mostly, normal people don't think "that mage child is untrained, he better receive training before he accidentally harms someone".

To them, training mostly means that mages are now adept at using fire and ice and electricity to kill them and, honestly, it's a very reasonable fear. Speak truly, would you feel comfortable being around someone who can do this at will?

 

 

 

Yes, we can try and rationalize it. "Oh swords kill too" and they do but it's really not the same thing.

 

So, what exactly attitude would you like them to have?

 

 

And I'm not surprised about Morrigan and Kieran, did you save the Old God soul then?

Yes.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I love how people denounce Vivienne using her connections to rise up. In a medieval society. Newsflash; if you're not a special snowflake player character, and have a shred of power, you most likely owe a lot it to your blood or your connections, if not both. That's just how it works. it doesn't mean you didn't work hard to get where you were. It means your connections gave you the opportunity to actually prove yourself. Vivienne didn't turn what was basically a court jester into a close adviser of the Empress by looking pretty.

 

I mean cripes, Fiona didn't become Grand Enchanter because of her amazing decision-making skill now, did she? To say nothing of the various people who rose mostly thanks to their noble blood (such as Alistair or Hawke) on top of working hard. Singling out Vivienne seems particularily silly to me.

[Boost32]

I think the point of the vote was to shut Adrian and Fiona down. If Wynne had convinced the Aequitarians to vote with the loyalists against dissolution, on the promise of reforms in the future, then Adrian and Fiona would have been unable to do anything about it. If they did choose to rebel regardless they would have no valid claims and the Circle could disown them.
This situation isn't about winning or losing, gaining or not gaining, it's about peace. Justinia was trying to forge a lasting peace by enacting reforms to appease the mages whilst still retaining the Circle to appease the Templars. They should accept this compromise in the name of peace, not just for tomorrow but for years to come. Instead they got war and all the pain and tragedy that comes with that. Both Adrian and Lambert wanted it and damned be the people who got caught in the middle.

Most of the Seekers were dead and the order was in shambles after what Corypheus did to them and that they were betrayed by Lucius. It is not comparable to say Justinia was weak and Cassandra strong because the situations are completely different. The templars and Seekers were in pieces, it's not hard to pick them up and forge them into something new like Cassandra and Vivienne did. Justinia however was working with the Templars and Seekers before the war, before Corypheus and when they felt they could do no wrong. It's not the same.

Vivienne wasn't part of the Circle, she says so herself. That's why she wasn't compelled to rebel. She did live at the Circle years ago and quickly left, thanks to Duke Bastien's patronage, but I don't think that qualifies her to be so judgemental. It's like saying First Enchanter Illana knew what it was like to be an everyday Circle mage.

The meeting was for them do discuss the reforms of the Circles, it wasnt to vote for independence. Fiona broke the law again when she proposed it, Lambert overreacted and fell for Adrian's trap. Justinia made nothing to prevent Adrian and Fiona screwing up.

 

A compromise means "A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions.", what are the concessions of the mages? You want one side to give concession and the other to give nothing, and you still dont see why the templars didnt want it?

 

Justinia was weak because she couldnt control her own people, everything she did only made things worse, she alienated the templars and let Fiona and Adrian do as they please and she killed her own people.

 

Vivienne is a Circle mage, if she didnt live in the Circle she couldnt be the First Enchanter, they are the leader of their Cicle. How she would administrate her Circle? 

[Boost32]

Jaison1986, on 14 Apr 2015 - 3:43 PM, said:

Oh? But she only raised Vivienne because Bastien gave her importance. She was a nobody before that. Not to mention Celene didn seem to broken up about discarding Vivienne for Morrigan.

This is funny because you are wrong in both accounts. First Celene didnt discard Vivienne and Celene cares about her.

https://youtu.be/b0z...WdH0?t=1h49m16s

[Jaison1986]

This is funny because you are wrong in both accounts. First Celene didnt discard Vivienne and Celene cares about her.

https://youtu.be/b0z...WdH0?t=1h49m16s

 

Alright, maybe Celene cared. Though, it didn't stopped her from replacing Vivienne for Morrigan, because that banter confirms it. She was discarded. Morrigan took her position as arcane advisor, and there is no denying.

[Boost32]

Alright, maybe Celene cared. Though, it didn't stopped her from replacing Vivienne for Morrigan, because that banter confirms it. She was discarded. Morrigan took her position as arcane advisor, and there is no denying.

No it didnt, Vivienne left on her own. Morrigan was a Arcane advisor Vivienne is the Imperial Enchanter.

[Jaison1986]

No it didnt, Vivienne left on her own. Morrigan was a Arcane advisor Vivienne is the Imperial Enchanter.

 

No, Vivienne started as Imperial enchanter, but then rose on the ranks and gained the title of Arcane advisor. Her position was taken by Morrigan. Why would Celene need two mages that fulfill nearly identical roles?

[Boost32]

No, Vivienne started as Imperial enchanter, but then rose on the ranks and gained the title of Arcane advisor. Her position was taken by Morrigan. Why would Celene need two mages that fulfill nearly identical roles?

She was not a Arcane advisor, she is always refered as Imperial Enchanter.

Spoiler

 

Introduction at the Winter Palace: https://youtu.be/tGklOdwK7iY?t=2m11s

 

And the why Celene would have two mages is simple, she respect Vivienne and she has a lot of influence in the court. Morrigan is explained in her codex: http://dragonage.wik...n_(Inquisition)

[Iakus]

No, Vivienne started as Imperial enchanter, but then rose on the ranks and gained the title of Arcane advisor. Her position was taken by Morrigan. Why would Celene need two mages that fulfill nearly identical roles?

Because they advise on different subjects.

[Lumix19]

Sure, people might not understand the esoteric aspects of magic much but they know enough. They know that random people are given the abilities to kill you with fire or ice or electricity. Mostly, normal people don't think "that mage child is untrained, he better receive training before he accidentally harms someone".
To them, training mostly means that mages are now adept at using fire and ice and electricity to kill them and, honestly, it's a very reasonable fear. Speak truly, would you feel comfortable being around someone who can do this at will?



Yes, we can try and rationalize it. "Oh swords kill too" and they do but it's really not the same thing.

So, what exactly attitude would you like them to have?



Yes.

They know enough? They basically know it's dangerous and react out of fear. And I would feel uncomfortable if I knew someone could do that yes but I also feel uncomfortable walking in the street because someone could stab me, you say they're not the same but how is that different? You're also missing the fact that mages exist on a spectrum, there are mages who could barely light a candle and others that can throw fire like that, but fear makes people generalize because suddenly everybody is a danger.

To respond to other posts I would point out that whilst the Divine allowed the Conclave on the premise of a discussion on tranquility they are apparently allowed to discuss anything at said Conclave. We can't know the law of the situation so trying to bring in a legal argument is pointless. All we know is that Fiona and Wynne said that Lambert's intervention went against the Divine's orders and he just said that he doesn't care.