51 réponses à ce sujet

[AshenSugar]

 I'm playing some low-level ME1 now, and  I don't find this very  convincing. I don't have the appropriate armor mods yet and probably won't until I get back to the Citadel, and I find that the game plays very differently from how it will play the moment I get my hands on one of those gadgets.

 

I respectfully disagree on this point.

 

These medical upgrades in Mass Effect cause the health of any party member who equips them to regenerate very, very slowly over a period of time. This has no bearing upon the game's combat, or any combat encounters, as the slow rate of regen does nothing to mitigate the damage you take during combat.

 

Therefore, the only real difference to how the game plays is that if health is lost, it can be regained by waiting, or not engaging in combat for a time, rather than by medigel (or having Kaidan in the party) Thus you are presented with a choice - heal now, later, or not at all.

 

If, in come hypothetical scenario, the development team had released the game without medical upgrades, and then added them in a future patch, I do not think it would have been necessary to adjust the balance of combat in any manner in order to compensate for these upgrades, because all they do is slowly replenish hit points when not fighting.

[Farangbaa]

If at this point you're still running into health problems... *shrugs*

[AshenSugar]

any earlier such items would break the design of the game. As pointed out in this thread as well as others, having the ability to always start combat at full health was not the devs intention.

 

 

That may be so, but in my opinion this design needs revision.

 

As far as I'm aware, the devs' intention was mainly to balance combat around the concept of damage-mitigating abilities, rather than healing, thus most fights no longer contain huge damage spikes capable of one-shotting the parry, that can only be addressed by used of spirit healing spells. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, it is already possible to begin every fight at full health simply by consuming potions, if starting combat at low health was a design intention, it is clearly not working entirely as expected, If this were the case, it might actually have been better to severely access to instant potions, and have them only as rare drops from enemies - thus forcing players to fight without them... and often at low health. I'm really glad they didn't do this!

[AshenSugar]

If at this point you're still running into health problems... *shrugs*

 

I'm sorry but I strongly suspect you have only skim-read my post, as I am not at all referring to health issues in combat. I am not asking for in-combat healing, or for anything that changes in-combat mechanics. I am only asking for items that provide slow health regeneration out of combat.

[Auztin]

The game isn't strategic or challenging enough so your solution is to have health Regen out of combat.Can't tell if serious or trolling
PS I am not one to say you are playing a game wrong but if you keep going back to resupply potions after 1 fight then complain about it being to easy then you are playing wrong.

[AlanC9]

These medical upgrades in Mass Effect cause the health of any party member who equips them to regenerate very, very slowly over a period of time. This has no bearing upon the game's combat, or any combat encounters, as the slow rate of regen does nothing to mitigate the damage you take during combat.

I find that it does matter, since the amount of damage taken in a fight is irrelevant as long as Shepard still has 1HP left when the last enemy drops. Before I get the device I'm playing an attrition campaign; after I get one I'm playing DA:O, or KotOR, or any other game where the party is at full strength for every fight no matter how badly they did in the last one.

Therefore, the only real difference to how the game plays is that if health is lost, it can be regained by waiting, or not engaging in combat for a time, rather than by medigel (or having Kaidan in the party) Thus you are presented with a choice - heal now, later, or not at all.

Kaidan grants regeneration to other party members? Never noticed that.

Personally, I think there's a fairly obvious difference between limited and unlimited healing. You don't? (Makes all those arguments about KotOR and DA:O's unlimited healing sound a bit silly.) Granted, it's not much of a difference on a UNC world where you probably can't run out of medi-gel before winning the only fight on the planet.

If, in come hypothetical scenario, the development team had released the game without medical upgrades, and then added them in a future patch, I do not think it would have been necessary to adjust the balance of combat in any manner in order to compensate for these upgrades, because all they do is slowly replenish hit points when not fighting.

This assumes that the original game would have been balanced so that the player would always have plenty of medigel, rather than be balanced around the player having to play well in order to not run out. I agree that the former would have been likely, but that's only because Bio games are often unchallenging.

But if a game isn't challenging, I don't see how making it easier helps.

[AshenSugar]

The game isn't strategic or challenging enough so your solution is to have health Regen out of combat.Can't tell if serious or trolling
PS I am not one to say you are playing a game wrong but if you keep going back to resupply potions after 1 fight then complain about it being to easy then you are playing wrong.

 

Stop using straw man attacks please, as they tend to derail the thread. More importantly it makes it impossible for the one under attack to defend themselves, as you are not really attacking their position, or anything actually said by them - you are simply creating a transitory construct of them in your own mind, then assigning a set of arbitary values to it, and attacking them instead.

 

Please address what the poster actually says, rather than what you think they said. This is assuming you even bothered to read my original post.

 

Stop accusing people of trolling simply because they express a viewpoint you (appear) to disagree with. It's patantly obvious to anyone who actually read my suggestion that I'm not trolling in the slightest. I carefully outlined my position, provided supporting evidence, examples and arguments for it; and then suggested a possible solution. If you disagree, fine, but simply hurling 'troll' at the person you disagree with achieves nothing.

 

Finally, I don't think you have to take quite such an aggressive tone in your replies. I have done nothing to harm or offend you, therefore please show a bit of courtesy when communicating with other forum users.

[Auztin]

Stop using straw man attacks please, as they tend to derail the thread. More importantly it makes it impossible for the one under attack to defend themselves, as you are not really attacking their position, or anything actually said by them - you are simply creating a transitory construct of them in your own mind, then assigning a set of arbitary values to it, and attacking them instead.

Please address what the poster actually says, rather than what you think they said. This is assuming you even bothered to read my original post.

Stop accusing people of trolling simply because they express a viewpoint you (appear) to disagree with. It's patantly obvious to anyone who actually read my suggestion that I'm not trolling in the slightest. I carefully outlined my position, provided supporting evidence, examples and arguments for it; and then suggested a possible solution. If you disagree, fine, but simply hurling 'troll' at the person you disagree with achieves nothing.

Finally, I don't think you have to take quite such an aggressive tone in your replies. I have done nothing to harm or offend you, therefore please show a bit of courtesy when communicating with other forum users.

I admit I skimmed it thinking it would be very much like half of these threads about gameplay.Now that I have actually read it....I still disagree. Also, my response was a general response on all fronts if was a troll post I had it covered.If it came off aggressive, I apologize.Since it isn't a troll post which indeed is very thought out post it is something I think if implemented would just give the forums something else to complain about.

[Sylvius the Mad]

While not exactly what you asked for, regeneration potions give slow health regeneration, and with the area effect upgrade, one pot heals the entire party.

Aye, and I make good use of them, however the same fundamental issue remains, I can hold only five, and they need to be restocked, which means shlepping back to camp.

Regen potions are per character. Even without extra capacity, you could carry 12 across 4 characters.

[AlanC9]

I got a bit further in that ME1 run. Probably should have done something other than Therum to test playing ME1 as an attrition game. Turns out that medi-gel drops too rapidly for attrition to really be a thing, though. I never got more than two charges below max.

[AshenSugar]

I admit I skimmed it thinking it would be very much like half of these threads about gameplay.Now that I have actually read it....I still disagree. Also, my response was a general response on all fronts if was a troll post I had it covered.If it came off aggressive, I apologize.Since it isn't a troll post which indeed is very thought out post it is something I think if implemented would just give the forums something else to complain about. 

 

 

Thank you, at least you read it. 

 

I'm not clear how such a ring, rune, upgrade etc. would create forum complaints, and even if it did, that would hardly be anything new, there are already plenty of forum complaints, some justified, some subjective, some plain silly. People complaining that other players had the chance to equip a new item wouldn't hold up to much long-term scrutiny.

[AshenSugar]

Regen potions are per character. Even without extra capacity, you could carry 12 across 4 characters.

 

Yes I know.

[AshenSugar]

I got a bit further in that ME1 run. Probably should have done something other than Therum to test playing ME1 as an attrition game. Turns out that medi-gel drops too rapidly for attrition to really be a thing, though. I never got more than two charges below max.

 

They do drop quite frequently. In some ways this kind-of ties to my point. To my way of thinking Mass Effect was never intended to be an attrition-based game, unlike, say, Doom 3 or Far Cry. I don't really get any sense of DA:I being an attrition-based game either... not with the amount of healing potions readily available. To this end, the reliance upon potions at all times feels cumbersome, and rather forced, to me at least. Having said that, I've never been a huge fan of potion spamming in games. I endure it when there's no other choice, but I far prefer to find way to be self-sufficient and not rely upon consumables.

[Cydh]

I second the motion for life regen outside of battle as a toggle of sorts.

 

The point is, the actual war of attrition does not really happen in the game, or at least not in the way it was intended. Either you lose health fast enough to drink potions in battle, or you don't lose health at all or only in minimal, insignificant amounts.

 

In Jaws of Hakkon, they added a potion table in the second-to-last dungeon, the one where the "attrition war" is supposed to happen. Conveniently accessible only to parties with a mage, it simply deals with everything this thread speaks about: you have free unlimited potion refills, and unlimited potion, tonic and grenade refills too.

 

It plays great.

 

If you go in there without a mage, the attrition battle begins - you won't feel it with your health and potions (there are three potion resupplies total, including one accessible *during* the final battle), but you will feel it with your grenades and other paid consumables.

 

I think retrospectively that the no-regen gimmick has very little added value, after a while it's about as hassling as a loading screen, and like Ashen Sugar I think it should go away. Make it an option or something that you can only toggle/activate in certain places or whatever.

 

Maybe have life on kill items work when teammates land killing blows (I actually never tested how they work)?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think retrospectively that the no-regen gimmick has very little added value, after a while it's about as hassling as a loading screen, and like Ashen Sugar I think it should go away. Make it an option or something that you can only toggle/activate in certain places or whatever.

I still view regenerating health as a gimmick, and I'm glad that it has gone away. I always felt that regenerating health added nothing to games, and often made them worse.

I preferred games that didn't have it, I disliked it immediately when it appeared, and I was spectacularly happy when BioWare announced it was going away.

[Sartoz]

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

 

If you don't like to waste potions on a 85% health-bar and want health-regeneration-items, just use existing ones... :

 

Get a belt with +health.

In the inventory-screen simply euip and unequip the belt several times and you'll notice:

Hurrah, full health!

Ooh Rah, next fight!

 

It's same effect as travelling back to camp and run back to position but is less time-consuming, so I would not consider it being cheating but more a kind of minor exploit.

Hush!

 

Bio will have a patch to fix this exploit...

[Chiramu]

Slow passive regen is worthless against the massive amounts of spike damage from the broken classes, particularly rogues >.>... Pop regen potion, oh no, now I'm dead. Rogues spike damage will make a feature like this worthless if implemented.

[AshenSugar]

Slow passive regen is worthless against the massive amounts of spike damage from the broken classes, particularly rogues >.>... Pop regen potion, oh no, now I'm dead. Rogues spike damage will make a feature like this worthless if implemented.

 

Yes of course. I mentioned this very thing earlier in the thread on several occasions..  

 

That's not what I want some means of passive health regeneration, the reasons I want some means of passive health regeneration have nothing to do with mitigating combat damage.  I clearly outlined them in the original post, and several follow up posts.

[AshenSugar]

I still view regenerating health as a gimmick, and I'm glad that it has gone away. I always felt that regenerating health added nothing to games, and often made them worse.

I preferred games that didn't have it, I disliked it immediately when it appeared, and I was spectacularly happy when BioWare announced it was going away.

 

 

That's fine, and I totally respect your choice. I'd never want to have anything implemented within the game that stopped people playing it the way they want to play it. If you truly dislike passive health regeneration, that's cool. Personally I feel some types of game benefit from it, and I'd include RPGs such as Dragon Age within that list. This simply means we have different tastes.

 

But, having said all that, my suggestion would make passive health regeneration totally 100% optional. It would take the form of a trinket, upgrade or rune that granted very slow regeneration if equipped. The choice to equip it would be yours alone, and you would be entirely free to ignore the item should you acquire it, or simply sell it to a merchant. This would allow to to continue to enjoy the game in the same manner as always, unaffected by any kind of passive regen.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's fine, and I totally respect your choice. I'd never want to have anything implemented within the game that stopped people playing it the way they want to play it. If you truly dislike passive health regeneration, that's cool. Personally I feel some types of game benefit from it, and I'd include RPGs such as Dragon Age within that list. This simply means we have different tastes.

But, having said all that, my suggestion would make passive health regeneration totally 100% optional. It would take the form of a trinket, upgrade or rune that granted very slow regeneration if equipped. The choice to equip it would be yours alone, and you would be entirely free to ignore the item should you acquire it, or simply sell it to a merchant. This would allow to to continue to enjoy the game in the same manner as always, unaffected by any kind of passive regen.

It would change the balance of the game. BioWare would then need to take the possibility of health regen into account when designing the game.

The cost of such a feature would not be insignificant.

[AshenSugar]

It would change the balance of the game. BioWare would then need to take the possibility of health regen into account when designing the game.

The cost of such a feature would not be insignificant.

 

Personally I don't agree with this summation.

 

We've already established that slow (not the term slow - we're not talking about instant health regen) would be unable to mitigate damage when in combat, therefore combat within the game would not be affected.

 

We've already established that DA:I is not an attrition-based game, and that players can always start fights at full health if they choose to do so.

 

So where does that leave us?

 

It leaves us entirely within the realm of out of combat gameplay. 

 

So what part of the game would need to be redesigned to factor in this new mechanic? 

 

I can't actually think of anything that would need to be balanced or adjusted to take it into account.

[Winged Silver]

I'd also like to see some sort of minimal passive healing outside of combat. Not because it's impossible or anything (the game is doable, though it could use refinement), but simply because the mechanics already present can be annoying. 

 

I personally despise finding myself in some bear zone, getting surprised by 1-2 extra combat participants, jumping back to the camp to replenish pots, and then upon my return: MORE BEARS (this was at least what I experienced when I played through the game 2.5 times. Currently on a DA break). Or coming across a dragon, realizing I was not at optimum strength, popping back to camp, and trying to dodge whatever might have respawned on the way back to the dragon (because damn it if I'm fighting a dragon I'd like to have full health and everything)

 

Make it small enough, and it doesn't really affect gameplay too much I think. You could sit in one place for a few minutes, or just pop back to camp and heal up. Player's choice. I know in ME1 I definitely spent a fair amount of time letting the squad's health regen or the mako's shields (good time for perusing the internet cats ). 

[Cydh]

It leaves us entirely within the realm of out of combat gameplay. 

 

So what part of the game would need to be redesigned to factor in this new mechanic? 

 

I can't actually think of anything that would need to be balanced or adjusted to take it into account.

 

Aaaand here I disagree with you, slightly. It does have a meaningful gameplay impact. If you regen health out of battle, enemies need to regen health as well, and possibly to respawn, like they do in Rifts. Being able to "reset" a fight after killing an enemy is a trick I have used more than once in all three games. And being a dev myself, I wouldn't dare to presume of what is easy or not to implement in a game, but that's another matter.

 

The final product is what matters anyway. I would personally work more on a different approach to attrition in future games, but for DAI, enabling a "cheat mode" where your health replenishes out of combat definitely makes the game slightly easier, there's no contesting that. It's just that it's not a very interesting kind of difficulty in the long run.

 

I mean, when the only hurdle is time, a single-player game should always let you decide to skip ahead. Because we don't have unlimited time, and there is no competition. There are times when the no-regen feature means more than pointless travelling, and when it does, I welcome it and embrace it because I love difficult content. But these times are unfortunately few and far between in reality.

[AlanC9]

We've already established that slow (not the term slow - we're not talking about instant health regen) would be unable to mitigate damage when in combat, therefore combat within the game would not be affected.

We established that combat would not be affected? I'm pretty sure I disagreed with that. I think that it does matter if having just one HP on the PC is all you want, or if you want to get through the battle with more resources. I don't know about you, but it sure changes my approach to the battles.

 

It leaves us entirely within the realm of out of combat gameplay. 
 
So what part of the game would need to be redesigned to factor in this new mechanic? 
 
I can't actually think of anything that would need to be balanced or adjusted to take it into account.

I'd want to see all the minor fights changed. Now that a TPW is the only possible fail state, a TPW should be at least a possibility in every fight.

I'll save us a couple of posts by playing the obvious counter-point right now -- DA:O and KotOR don't do that; most of their trash fights are pointless. Yes, that's true. This is a problem with those games.

[AlanC9]

That's fine, and I totally respect your choice. I'd never want to have anything implemented within the game that stopped people playing it the way they want to play it. If you truly dislike passive health regeneration, that's cool. Personally I feel some types of game benefit from it, and I'd include RPGs such as Dragon Age within that list. This simply means we have different tastes.
 
But, having said all that, my suggestion would make passive health regeneration totally 100% optional. It would take the form of a trinket, upgrade or rune that granted very slow regeneration if equipped. The choice to equip it would be yours alone, and you would be entirely free to ignore the item should you acquire it, or simply sell it to a merchant. This would allow to to continue to enjoy the game in the same manner as always, unaffected by any kind of passive regen.

As long as I'm in time-saving mode, I'll save Sylvius some too. As a matter of RP, Sylvius would be required to use such a device if one was available --unless he was playing a suicidal idiot that time. Making it optional doesn't help.

I'm not quite so strict on myself. But I don't like having to handicap myself either. I'm glad ME1 doesn't play better without regen items, since I'd find it quite annoying to have to sell the things off just to get better gameplay. (And "better," of course, is purely subjective.)