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The Rachni VS the Krogan - A logistical, and political discussion.


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#1
Vortex13

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I was always disappointed in Mass Effect's depiction of the Rachni, or more accurately their lack of depiction, especially in the third title. Aside from their lack of screen time the Rachni are quickly swept aside as a minor, unimportant element of the galaxy's assets to fight the Reapers. Sure you get some Crucible assets if you saved the Queen in both ME 1 & 3, but that's all the narrative attributes to their significance; a glorified engineering detail. Even their acquisition is a minor side mission in the grand quest to recruit the Krogan (and cure, or not, the Genophage). 

 

 

Everyone in-game is pushing for Krogan support, but the narrative completely overlooks the species that is not only better suited for the task of ground operations and delaying of Reaper forces, but is also a more stable ally not only in the fight against the Reapers but also in a post-ME3 galaxy (IMO). Even when looking at the situation from an unbiased point of view (as I am an admitted fan of the Rachni) I can see several areas were they would be just as good as, if not more so than the Krogan.

 

 

Logistics for Reaper War

 

From a purely logistical standpoint, the Rachni offer the following advantages over the Krogan in terms of ground combat forces: highly disciplined soldiers that come equipped with their own weapons and armor, are capable of surviving in extreme environments, have a direct line of communication with HQ from anywhere in the galaxy, and; most importantly; are combat ready in a matter of a few weeks. 

 

(I'll include my lengthy thoughts on each of these elements in a spoiler tag for the sake of organization)

Spoiler

 

 

 

Indoctrination and vulnerabilities:

 

Technically, this would fall under the classification of war-time logistics, but since Indoctrination is such a nebulous element in the setting, I decided to include it in it's own category.

 

The centralized nature of the Rachni with their Queen is a double edged sword, as their distinct advantage is also a weakness that their enemies can exploit. This is seen with the Reaper, or Leviathan depending on which theory you go with, interference with them during the Rachni Wars, the insanity that the drones and soldiers suffered when separated from the Queen on Noveria, and again when the Reapers captured/re-created the Queen in Mass Effect 3 to breed Ravengers. There is definite Achilles heel with the Queens, and one that the de-ceteralized Krogan don't have, but I would ask you to consider the fact that the Rachni might actually be one of the most resistant species when it comes to Reaper indoctrination.

 

 

I don't have any Codex or Wiki entries to base this off of, only what we are shown in-game, but consider that the Queen was captured and held by the Reapers for an indeterminate amount of time and yet she still retained her free will. It doesn't take higher level thought processes to give birth so the fact that the Reapers had to resort to just containing the Queen leads me to assume that they couldn't indoctrinate her. Unlike the slow, deliberate subversion that the Reapers employ to sow discontent and chaos in enemy ranks the Rachni Queen didn't have any need to become an indoctrinated agent; she was literally being used as a baby factory. So the question is why would the Reapers not break her mind and leave her in a vegetative state with forceful indoctrination?

 

Maybe they tried but were unable to break her will? The games do say that individuals with strong will are able to resist the effects of indoctrination, so if the Reapers are unable to control a single Queen with forceful conversion it points to the Rachni being uniquely resistant to the effects of the Reapers greatest weapon. 

 

Also consider the Frankin-Queen you encounter if you didn't spare the original in ME 1. Here is an abomination created by the Reapers for a specific purpose, and even then they are unable to control her. Even though the Not-Queen does betray Shepard if saved she is clearly not working for the Reapers' interests and instead follows her own selfish/psychotic motivations.

 

 

Compare this to several Krogan willingly cooperating with Saren, a Reaper agent, and their vulnerability to indoctrination like the other species of the galaxy. Sure the Queen would be a natural target, but if she was kept on the move the Reapers would be dealing with a fighting force that is neigh-immune to indoctrination outside of husk-ification.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Outside of pure logistics let's look at the interactions of the Rachni and Krogan with the rest of the galaxy throughout the trilogy. 

 

 

Pre-ME 1 Interactions:

 

The Rachni enacted a hostile invasion of Citadel space during the Rachni Wars sparking a conflict that lasted for several centuries and left many dead. I will not try and justify their actions with mind control, via the Reapers or Leviathans, simply because I feel that it's a cheep method of excusing a character's/species' atrocities, and because I feel it conflicts with the Rachni's origins as weapons of war for the Protheans. Javik specifically mentions that only the most cunning and aggressive Queens were breed for his cycle's purposes so it seems odd to assume that the species as a whole is completely altruistic by the time of the Rachni Wars.

 

It makes more sense to me, as well as making for a better character arc, to have the Rachni as naturally aggressive, that they invaded Citadel space of their own volition, and it was only after the Council races drove their species to near extinction did the surviving Queen realized that such hostile interactions with the rest of the galaxy would only serve to wipe out the Rachni for good. Likely, the Reapers/Leviathans interfered with the Queens once the galaxy started to push back, forcing them to continue the fight even though they were losing.  

 

Spoiler

 

 

The Krogan are uplifted by the Salarians to combat the Rachni, seeing as how they are perfectly suited to combating them. This pays off for the Council races as they are able to drive the invaders back to their home world and wipe out the Rachni entirely, at far as everyone knew, thus ending the bloody conflict. As a reward for their actions, the Krogan are made a Council species, and are given several worlds to inhabit. The goodwill of the galaxy was soon pushed past it's breaking point however, when the aggressive, rapidly breeding Krogan began to take other species' worlds by force. The decades long war of the Krogan Rebellions saw the arrival of the Turians onto the galactic stage, and ended with the Salarian created and Turian deployed Genophage; a engineered virus that brought the Krogan birth rate back down to pre-industrial levels. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

ME 1-3 Interactions:

 

By the time Shepard and humanity have hit the scene the Rachni have been declared extinct and the Krogan have taken on a fatalistic outlook on the galaxy at large, becoming mercenaries. They still harbor a deep resentment towards the Turians and Salarians for the parts they played in the Genophage deployment, and as a whole, the Krogan have a massive chip on their shoulder concerning the outcome of the Rebellion.  

 

Wrex, as the player's first insight into the Krogan in ME 1 constantly decries the Genophage as evil, making mention of the Krogan stillborn and his race's overall decline but he never mentions his species' actions in the Rebellions, only that the Krogan were betrayed by the races they saved from the Rachni.  This attitude is reflected in the majority of the Krogan the player meets with a few notable exceptions; by and large the Krogan are bitter with the galaxy that they feel turned on them and they place all of their issues as a species squarely on the Genophage. 

 

The Rachni Queen that Shepard meets on Noveria explains to Shepard that she didn't know why the Rachni went forward with their invasion of Citadel space save for mentioning a "sour yellow note" that "silenced all others". While that was effectively stating that mind control had something to do with their actions, the important thing to note here is that the Queen doesn't gloss over the atrocities that her species committed during the Rachni Wars.

 

 

 

Flash forward to Mass Effect 2 and Wrex is now leader of Clan Urdnot and while he says he is committed to helping Shepard with the Reapers he is actually mired in pointless politicking with the other clans, and hasn't made too much head way in melding the Krogan into a united fighting force. The Rachni Queen on the other hand, provided the player spared her, is completely committed to building up an army to combat the approaching Reapers.

 

Spoiler

 

 

In Mass Effect 3 Wrex has finally unified the Krogan, but rather than have them rush to the galaxy's aid, like he told Shepard that he would, he instead holds the fate of the galaxy hostage and refuses to commit to the fight unless the Genophage is cured. Wrex would rather have everyone in the galaxy perish than go to war against the Reapers. Instead of garnering good faith with the other races, the Krogan cling to old hatreds about the Genophage and Krogan Rebellions.

 

If Shepard choses to sabotage the Genophage cure Wrex makes it quite clear that he not only intends to have the Krogan break away from the allied forces, but plans to actually start engaging human Alliance personal, not only dooming his species to extinction but also fighting against one of the species fighting to save his race.

 

 

The Rachni Queen however is more than ready to help the cause, she is even willing to admit that her potential re-capture would be a risk to the allied forces of the galaxy, and is willing to let Shepard leave her to die if he/she feels that saving the Rachni would pose too great a risk. The Queen asks for no special concessions before she allies with the rest of the galaxy, nor does she demand restitutions for the damage done to her species. 

 

 

 

Post ME 3/Reaper-War Interactions:

 

 

We don't have too much to go off from the ending slides, but there are several assumptions that can be drawn based on the Krogan and Rachni's actions throughout the trilogy. 

 

 

The Krogan are seen to be expanding again, and with the Genophage cured, they will undoubtedly experience a major population boom. This rapid increase in numbers is sure to put a strain on post war resources as everyone struggles to rebuild. Nothing in their long history seems to indicate that the Krogan attempted to control their numbers, and likely any suggestions of birth control by other races is going to set them off about the Genophage again. 

 

The Krogan are also very focused on the rebuilding of their home world, while it's quite possible that Krogan engineers might help the other races rebuild, all of the ending slides indicate that they are focused on Tuchanka first and foremost; which coupled with their newly re-aquired virility could prove to be quite trying on the galactic alliance.

 

 

The Rachni however have no issues with keeping their numbers in check, nor do they seem to have any preference for their worlds over the other races. Also their propensity at engineering means that they would make for a highly organized and efficient force to aid in the rebuilding efforts.

 

Judging from the ending slides the Rachni seem to only take planets that the other races don't want, and that coupled with their natural tolerance for extreme environments means that any potential territorial disputes will be very few and far between.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR Version:

 

IMO, the Rachni make for a far better choice than the Krogan not only in terms of fighting the Reapers, but also in their interaction with the other species, as well as the rebuilding that will need to take place after the war.

 

 


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#2
SwobyJ

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We can consider the Rachni to be superior to the Krogan except:

1)Eww bugs. Eww different.

2)More easily mind hijacked as a species. Reliance on queens.

3)Less warlike tendencies.

 

Each of these are subjective analysis of course. You could counter each of them. But yes, there's reasons and/or excuses for not turning to them for help.

 

The Krogan beat the Rachni over time by targeting queens and punching through hives. Otherwise the rachni may have still 'won' (well the Leviathans or Reapers or whatever was really behind them).

 

I don't think the Rachni are an ideal choice at least compared to the Krogan for this war though. The Rachni still need to get along with and communicate with others - not easy. The Rachni need to keep their Queen(s) safe - not easy. The Rachni could have kicked ass but TBH they probably don't have the easy numbers to really overwhelm others. Even their Reaperized drone versions were a minority on most battlefields.

 

I mostly agree with Bioware's treatment of them except for the rushed feeling of ME3 (rachni material), which clearly could have went more into things and had more choice-consequence.

 

I think a point about the Rachni is that they could end up being a giant boon for the galaxy, but they have aspects that need to be understood and tolerated/accepted. They did not come across as peaceful to the galaxy, and it is understandable why. Even if peaceful, they still manipulate others in alien ways even to the majority of aliens we know, and they still now have a set record of being 'easy' tools for potential enemies. There is, imo, enough reason to just not allow them into this galaxy's society, or even if for the war, there's reason enough to not trust what's going on with them.

 

But I never consider them 'bad'. Both logistically and personal-morally, I consider them just fine, if problematic. 

 

I think the Krogan were what the galaxy needed 'NOW', but the Rachni could be considered superior in several major ways, and if the war was allowing for more extended planning, the Rachni could have possibly been more useful against the Reapers than the Krogan. And even post-war, it could be figured that breakthroughs with how the Rachni work could actually advance the rest of the organic galaxy a TON. Screw Reaper tech, we have Rachni 'tech'!



#3
TheN7Penguin

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I think it is important to consider that there may not be as many Rachni as there are Krogan.

 

And that the Krogan defeated the Rachni the first time around - showing them more capable than the Rachni in terms of war assets.

 

Politically and motivationally, it would be better to have a Krogan, than the Rachni - who once posed quite a threat.


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#4
Pasquale1234

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Beyond the "eww... bugs" thing, there is another factor that I feel is detrimental to other species' acceptance of them as allies: the only way to communicate with them is through a freshly dead body.

It also makes one wonder about their apparent skills wrt taking over another's body. Is that limited to the dying or newly dead? We don't really know the extent of that 'mind-control' thing they do.

#5
God

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Beyond the "eww... bugs" thing, there is another factor that I feel is detrimental to other species' acceptance of them as allies: the only way to communicate with them is through a freshly dead body.

It also makes one wonder about their apparent skills wrt taking over another's body. Is that limited to the dying or newly dead? We don't really know the extent of that 'mind-control' thing they do.

 

Untrue. The Rachni Queen was perfectly capable of communicating through a living host. See the Asari on Illium.



#6
Pasquale1234

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Untrue. The Rachni Queen was perfectly capable of communicating through a living host. See the Asari on Illium.


Yes, I neglected to mention that.

They still need to make some form of connection with another body to communicate - and although the asari messenger protests the possibility if questioned, there is sort of an implication that she might have fallen under the control of the rachni.

#7
Vortex13

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Yes, I neglected to mention that.

They still need to make some form of connection with another body to communicate - and although the asari messenger protests the possibility if questioned, there is sort of an implication that she might have fallen under the control of the rachni.

 

 

Even if the Rachni Queens need a dedicated speaker to be 'altered' in order to communicate, not that I think that this would be the case, it wouldn't be anymore disturbing than the Leviathans or Geth that Shepard can recruit (IMO). The galaxy is willing to accept the help of these two alien races in the battle against the Reapers, I personally don't see how giant space bugs, that may or may not alter a select few people, would be where we would suddenly draw the line.

 

 

The Leviathans are quite clearly seen to be capable of mind control, and unlike the Rachni in this scenario, they don't particularly care about their thralls outside of gaining tribute from them. Even if the Asari on Illium was being manipulated it is quite clear that she was well taken care of, nor did she exhibit the symptoms of forceful control that the victims of the Leviathans or Reapers did; such as nose bleeds, head pains, etc. If there is a degree of mind control going on with Rachni speakers it seems to be a rather painless process compared to the Reaper and Leviathan thralls who complain of feeling 'wrong' before and during control. 

 

 

Likewise, the Geth have been (as far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned) killing anyone that entered the Perseus Veil for the past 300 years, yet their inclusion is not barred from the alliance. The Rachni may be "inhuman monsters", but they are from a war that took place well over 2,000 years ago, while the Geth have just recently been involved in conflict with the Council races. Out of the two factions the Geth would be seen more as the enemy than the Rachni (IMO).



#8
Vortex13

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I think it is important to consider that there may not be as many Rachni as there are Krogan.

 

This is true. But the Rachni, unlike the Krogan, haven't been subjected to the Genophage. And even with the virus cured, the Krogan still can't match the Rachni's stated birth rate. 

 

One queen can lay a massive clutch of eggs every few hours, and those eggs can become battle ready troops in the span of a few weeks. Compare this to the clutch of young that a Krogan female can have in one year, and the many years that Krogan have to wait before their children reach maturity. 

 

 

And that the Krogan defeated the Rachni the first time around - showing them more capable than the Rachni in terms of war assets.

 

 

Yes the Krogan defeated the Rachni, but it wasn't single handedly. They had the help of the Asari and Salarians during the Rachni Wars. The Krogan may have turned the tide, and may have delivered the knockout punch, but there is no indication that they completely out matched the Rachni in one on one combat.

 

 

If the battle had just been between the Krogan and the Rachni, with no outside interference there is no telling who would come out on top (IMO).

 

 

 

Politically and motivationally, it would be better to have a Krogan, than the Rachni - who once posed quite a threat.

 

 

No more than the Krogan did. In fact the Krogan could be seen as an even bigger threat than the Rachni seeing as how they re-directed asteroids at Turian worlds and rendered 3 of them completely un-inhabitable during the Krogan Rebellions. 

 

 

Also the Rachni Queen has been very agreeable to helping Shepard and the galaxy in fighting the Reapers with no stipulations placed on her aid, whereas the Krogan essentially said "Genophage cure or nothing" to the galaxy when it was all hands on deck in Mass Effect 3. Out of the two species the Krogan have been more belligerent in their interactions with the other races of the galaxy, blaming all of their problems on the Genophage/everyone else and demanding restitutions for past wrongs.

 



#9
Vortex13

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We can consider the Rachni to be superior to the Krogan except:

1)Eww bugs. Eww different.

2)More easily mind hijacked as a species. Reliance on queens.

3)Less warlike tendencies.

 

Each of these are subjective analysis of course. You could counter each of them. But yes, there's reasons and/or excuses for not turning to them for help.

 

The Krogan beat the Rachni over time by targeting queens and punching through hives. Otherwise the rachni may have still 'won' (well the Leviathans or Reapers or whatever was really behind them).

 

I don't think the Rachni are an ideal choice at least compared to the Krogan for this war though. The Rachni still need to get along with and communicate with others - not easy. The Rachni need to keep their Queen(s) safe - not easy. The Rachni could have kicked ass but TBH they probably don't have the easy numbers to really overwhelm others. Even their Reaperized drone versions were a minority on most battlefields.

 

I mostly agree with Bioware's treatment of them except for the rushed feeling of ME3 (rachni material), which clearly could have went more into things and had more choice-consequence.

 

I think a point about the Rachni is that they could end up being a giant boon for the galaxy, but they have aspects that need to be understood and tolerated/accepted. They did not come across as peaceful to the galaxy, and it is understandable why. Even if peaceful, they still manipulate others in alien ways even to the majority of aliens we know, and they still now have a set record of being 'easy' tools for potential enemies. There is, imo, enough reason to just not allow them into this galaxy's society, or even if for the war, there's reason enough to not trust what's going on with them.

 

But I never consider them 'bad'. Both logistically and personal-morally, I consider them just fine, if problematic. 

 

I think the Krogan were what the galaxy needed 'NOW', but the Rachni could be considered superior in several major ways, and if the war was allowing for more extended planning, the Rachni could have possibly been more useful against the Reapers than the Krogan. And even post-war, it could be figured that breakthroughs with how the Rachni work could actually advance the rest of the organic galaxy a TON. Screw Reaper tech, we have Rachni 'tech'!

 

 

1)    

If anything I would attribute the Rachni's 'alien' nature to being a reliable asset in the Reaper war. Outside of them and the Geth the other species of the galaxy are all fairly identical; similar morals, similar cultures, similar social structures, similar tactical thinking, similar infrastructure, individually minded etc. While certainly conductive to interaction and co-operation between the races of the galaxy, the Reapers only really need to focus on one overlapping cultural/scientific/political mindset in their harvest. The Rachni and the Geth throw a wrench into such broad classification, they are unique outliers that defy the common tactics that can be employed against the rest of the galaxy. 

 

How does the physiological warfare of using the husk-ified remains of former loved ones apply to a species that doesn't attribute such values to individuals? How does the standard practice of herding civilians into population centers work if a species doesn't possess any non-combatants, nor colonizes planets with centralized and easy to locate city hubs? How do the Reapers engage a species that can survive even the harshest of conditions without the need for protection? How do the Reapers deal with a species that (for all intents and purposes) is immune or at least is highly resistant to the effects of indoctrination? Etc.

 

 

 

2)

As far as the Rachni's reliance on their Queens go, yes it would be a definite vulnerability but I wouldn't say that it makes them 'easy' to indoctrinate/control. The drones and soldiers defer to the queen and she would be a logical target, but saying that the centralized nature of the Rachni makes them more prone to influence would be overlooking several key facts about their displayed resistance. 

 

 

We know that the Leviathans/Reapers used the queens in the Rachni Wars. Personally, I would put my money on it being the Leviathans over the Reapers since there were no Rachni husks seen during their invasion of Citadel space (the Reapers usual MO when it comes to using combat troops), also the Leviathans seem to possess a far more "complete and focused" form of active control over a target thrall than the Reapers do with their indoctrination. We can easily see this with how Shepard is rendered completely helpless by the Leviathans' mind probe but is able to fight out of Reaper influence, even convince fully indoctrinated Reaper agents like Saren and TIM to go against control and kill themselves. 

 

So the Rachni were compromised by the Leviathans, the resident god-tier of alien species in the setting, I don't see how this makes them less qualified than other species since they are able to be controlled just as easily. Yes, a queen has sway over the Rachni drones and soldiers, but that is pretty similar to a high ranking military official being manipulated and using their race's military to attack others.

 

 

The situation in Peak 15 on Noveria is a unique circumstance as the scientists there got lucky and discovered the queen when she was still an egg, and even then they weren't able to control her, just contain her within in the facility. If being taken from a point of helplessness and imprisoned is a sign of a 'weak' or 'easily controlled' character than the same can be said of Shepard when he/she is taken by Cerberus and put back together in Mass Effect 2.

 

 

Finally, the situation that the narrative put the queen into in Mass Effect 3 actually shows just how resistant the Rachni are to Reaper influence. If the queen is so vulnerable to control, why didn't the Reapers break her will and leave her as a mindless baby factory? Why did the Reapers have to rely on implants and turn the newly born Rachni into Ravangers? If the queen was susceptible to manipulation why not simply direct her to order the drones and soldiers to attack the galaxy as is? The fact that the queen is shown to be in possession of all of her higher thought process, and that the Rachni troops have all been converted into husks points to the Reapers being unable to control her. 

 

 

 

3)

The whole, "Rachni are pacifists" declaration is rather at odds with how they are presented in-game (IMO). Even Javik states that the Prothans specifically bred the Rachni, selecting only the most cunning and aggressive queens, as weapons of war. The Rachni's development has been rather inconsistent in that regard, personally, I chalk up their altruistic nature to the current queen who realizes that aggressive interactions with the galaxy is what brought her species to the brink of extinction twice now.


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#10
Vortex13

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I was going through Priority: Earth again and that one scene where the Krogan, Asari, and Turians are shooting at the Reaper destroyer from a high-rise building really stood out to me as a perfect example of why Rachni ground forces would be a game changer in the war.

 

 

 

 

Excusing the cinematic stupidity of the NPCs involved, I mean seriously that one Turian is shooting an Avenger at the destroyer, what's that supposed to accomplish? 'Conventional' ground forces really have no way of dealing with the actual Reapers themselves outside of a whole lot of luck, mass Caine deployments, and/or Shepard-level plot armor. Obviously, Sovereign class dreadnoughts engaging ground forces would be many orders of magnitude above anything that even the Rachni could muster, but a destroyer, that they could engage.  

 

 

As pointed out in my initial post, the lore and gameplay of the Mass Effect universe has clearly established that Rachni soldiers have natural claws and acidic spit that can not only bypass kinetic barriers, but can also penetrate heavy combat armor in a matter of seconds. Couple that fact with the Codex declaration that outside of their highly advanced kinetic barriers the Reapers' armor plating is no more resilient than the current cycles' armor, and you have the makings of an effective counter when the Reapers themselves (at least the destroyers) decide to get involved in ground skirmishes.

 

Yes, the destroyer's beam weapon would vaporize any Rachni it hit like a kid frying ants with a magnifying glass, but it would do the same to anyone else caught in the blast. Yes the destroyer can fly away if it is beginning to become threatened, but then again forcing a superior enemy to flee the field of battle is only going to give advantage to your allies. 

 

If a Reaper destroyer is spear heading a counter attack into allied lines, using it's innate resistance to absorb the mass effect based weaponry, why not have a group of Rachni soldier lying in ambush? As soon as the destroyer passes have them charge it with the goal of climbing on and up it's legs? The destroyer can't effectively target hostiles climbing on its body, and it's defenses are useless against the natural weapons of the bugs climbing over it, melting and peeling away its armored shell. 

 

The Reapers might be like a kid with a magnifying glass to the rest of the galaxy, but anyone that has stepped in a fire ant mound or been stung by a bullet ant can tell you that those little buggers can inflict some serious pain on you.  



#11
Vazgen

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I think you're missing a few crucial points here.

1) Reapers are supported by ground troops who can take out unshielded Rachni with ease

2) Reaper surface material does not go well with climbing, a moving Destroyer is pretty much impossible to climb without some means of attaching to a flat surface, a means that the Rachni lack

3) Reapers don't feel pain. The analogy of stepping into fire ant mound does not work here since the Reaper will simply continue destroying everyone until support troops take care of the Rachni

4) Rachni acid spit is not that damaging. You'd need a lot of Rachni to do some noticeable damage to a Destroyer and that number will not work with ambush tactics

 

One way I can see the Rachni being used against the Reapers is preparing traps. Rachni workers can dig tunnels and create holes that the Reapers can fall into. Though I'm not sure how effective it'll be.



#12
Vortex13

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I think you're missing a few crucial points here.

1) Reapers are supported by ground troops who can take out unshielded Rachni with ease

2) Reaper surface material does not go well with climbing, a moving Destroyer is pretty much impossible to climb without some means of attaching to a flat surface, a means that the Rachni lack

3) Reapers don't feel pain. The analogy of stepping into fire ant mound does not work here since the Reaper will simply continue destroying everyone until support troops take care of the Rachni

4) Rachni acid spit is not that damaging. You'd need a lot of Rachni to do some noticeable damage to a Destroyer and that number will not work with ambush tactics

 

One way I can see the Rachni being used against the Reapers is preparing traps. Rachni workers can dig tunnels and create holes that the Reapers can fall into. Though I'm not sure how effective it'll be.

 

 

1) That is true, but ambush tactics, and the support from the other races would diminish the damage that the Reaper ground forces could deal. Also the Rachni themselves are no slouches when it comes to dealing with enemies using mass effect based weapons. Consider that soldiers have been demonstrated to withstand sustained fire from automatic rifles and are still capable of engaging their targets. Plus, their claws and spit can bypass any shields the Reaper forces might have.

 

Don't forget that a colony of Rachni on the planet Nepmos in Mass Effect 1, without the direction of the Queen mind you, was able to engage a force of 90 Alliance Marines armed with modern day weapons and armor as well as rocket turrets, and whittle them down to only 3 survivors by the time Shepard arrives.

 

Closing the gap to melee would be the biggest obstacle facing Rachni forces, but support from the other species would help alleviate this issue, and as long as the Rachni don't adopt the Reaper strategy of" "Running in a straight line at your foes, absorbing bullets with your face", they should be fine.

 

 

 

2) Climbing the structure of a Reaper is not too difficult if you consider that the Rachni could claw their own handholds into it's armor as they worked themselves up it's legs. Also if they are anything like our terrestrial insects, ants for example, climbing a sheer surface would be something that comes naturally to them.

 

 

 

3) Feeling pain is more of a metaphor, a Reaper destroyer is going to think twice about sticking around a battlefield with gaping holes in its armor. They might not feel the damage that is being done to them, but they would have to realize that a breach in their defenses would be compromising their chances of survival, especially if the Rachni start tearing into their shield generators.

 

I don't expect a single Rachni soldier to down a Reaper, but a swarm of them, working in tandem with other ground forces will at the very least drive a destroyer off, if not opening it up for a killing blow from other sources.

 

 

4) It's true, we don't have the specifics of the damage that Rachni acid can do, but  gameplay-wise it only takes one or two solid hits to bring the Mako down to 'critical' levels, especially on Insanity. Reaper armor would be more dense that that of a Mako obviously, but anything that can eat away at a combat vehicle designed for use in hostile environments is nothing to dismiss either. Even if their acidic spit isn't enough to melt Reaper armor, it would most certainly weaken it to further damage, like a Rachni's claws or a shot from a Javelin sniper rifle (for example). 

 

As far as numbers go, I would say that a group of four or five Rachni all working on one area of a destroyer's armor is going to be dealing some pretty noticeable damage to the armored plating.

 

 

 

I like the 'sinkhole' idea, at the very least it would throw the destroyer off balance for a few seconds, maybe allow forces to get a clear shot at vulnerable areas.



#13
Kabooooom

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This was a very well written analysis and I mostly agree. I have nothing of value to add, because its awesome.

But, I would bring up a quick tangent: You brought up the potential resistance to indoctrination of the Rachni Queen - at least, compared to other species. This, combined with the suggestion from the Leviathan DLC and with the Rachni's own description of not being in control of their own actions during the Rachni War, is actually pretty strong circumstantial evidence that it was the Leviathans that instigated it.

Which also makes about a thousand times more sense than it being the Reapers, anyways. They saw that the cycle hadn't started, and used the Rachni to attempt to conquer the galaxy again, and potentially as an army to stop the Reapers if they returned. The Leviathans had limited numbers - dominate a queen, and boom: Instant army.
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#14
teh DRUMPf!!

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 In ME3, let her die. Doubly so if you plan to cure the genophage.

 

We have no reason to believe she's immune to indoctrination. She's been captured by and exposed to the Reapers. Do not take any chances.

 

And if the krogan are to expand, they need not compete with the rachni for colony worlds. Gut-wrenching decision for me since I loved the rachni but it really is the most sensible course of action. In fact, the Queen's last words indicate she is at peace with her death, not anything like being gassed on Noveria.



#15
Vazgen

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@Vortex13 - I'll address points 1 and 3 since they are connected. The 90 marine example does not work in Reaper War since in that situation the Rachni had superior numbers. In Reaper War they lose one of their biggest advantages - numbers. You can see how the guard team in Noveria hold their constant assaults for a long time due to simply having a better position. The lack of shields makes the Rachni vulnerable, their charge will be slowed by husk and brute waves and they will be picked from afar by marauders and cannibals. 

 

 In ME3, let her die. Doubly so if you plan to cure the genophage.

 

We have no reason to believe she's immune to indoctrination. She's been captured by and exposed to the Reapers. Do not take any chances.

 

And if the krogan are to expand, they need not compete with the rachni for colony worlds. Gut-wrenching decision for me since I loved the rachni but it really is the most sensible course of action. In fact, the Queen's last words indicate she is at peace with her death, not anything like being gassed on Noveria.

I see the Rachni as the only force capable of stopping new Krogan Rebellions if they ever start. Wrex and Eve are not immortal, losing them might throw the krogan back into their violent ways and with genophage cured they would be too much for the galaxy to bear. That's why I always save the Rachni when I cure the genophage. They live on toxic worlds, krogan would not compete for those.



#16
CrutchCricket

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Excellent analysis. I regreted how terribly the rachni were overlooked before but this is the first time I regret killing the queen in 3. Of course at that point I stand by my decision. Throughout the series we're constantly told nothing can resist indoctrination. Even Shiala still feels it and its only the Zhu's Hope colonists that keep her from turning (the thorian was another huge opportunity they just threw away btw). That and the queen looked Reapified to me when I saw her in ME3 for the first time. I've been told it's just how her textures ended up but metallic looking and glowing blue looks a lot like a Reaper to me.

 

But the main point is the precedent has been unwaveringly set as indoctrination is inevitable with exposure. What do we have besides the queen's word that she's immune?

 

A few other points, randomly. First off the rachni are not the only species to unanimously agree to oppose the Reapers. The True Geth pledge their support as early as ME2 via Legion and have all the advantages you mention the rachni having (minus the natural weapons, though they are still stated to have the most advanced weaponry of this cycle), with the added benefit of shields, fleets, the ability to operate in vacuum and lack of centralization (separation of individual platforms notwithstanding). ME3 of course screws everything up with the whole quarian war. But Shepard with the Geth and Rachni behind him would've already had the means to singlehandedly oppose the Reapers at least for a time, or more intelligently, to start mobilizing the rest of the galaxy to prepare, through force if necessary. Of course he had to twiddle his thumbs in the brig because idiot balls were aplenty. <_<

 

Secondly, curing the genophage isn't as much of a favor to the krogan as it's made out to be. In fact you may have doomed them to extinction via overpopulation. Like you said historically, controlling their population hasn't been their strongsuit. Well now they have to or perish. The entire galaxy's infrastructure is shattered, the krogan's even more so, since it came to the war pre-shattered. Understatment of the thread: Tuchanka doesn't strike me as particularly fertile. So not only are the krogan very low in resources, the rest of the galaxy isn't going to help much because a) they need resources themselves and B) no one's going to make the same mistake twice and give the krogan what they need to expand. Thus they have a simple choice: they learn to manage what they have with what they have (which means no population explosion a la Krogan Rebellions) or they go extinct. Leaving the genophage alone may have been the kinder option. On the other hand, they're now free to decide their own fate and endure the test of natural selection: they adapt or they die.



#17
teh DRUMPf!!

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I see the Rachni as the only force capable of stopping new Krogan Rebellions if they ever start. Wrex and Eve are not immortal, losing them might throw the krogan back into their violent ways and with genophage cured they would be too much for the galaxy to bear. That's why I always save the Rachni when I cure the genophage. They live on toxic worlds, krogan would not compete for those.

 

Wat. The krogan curbstomped the rachni when they were a force that threatened the entire galaxy. Now the rchni are a shell of what they were then.

 

And krogan can inhabit very harsh environments, hence why the Council gave them planets formerly inhabited by the rachni after wiping them out.

 

Better if they are not both around to compete for resources, especially for the krogan. The last thing I'd want is for them to go back to a military/conquest culture.



#18
CrutchCricket

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See my post for why that won't happen.



#19
Vazgen

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Wat. The krogan curbstomped the rachni when they were a force that threatened the entire galaxy. Now the rchni are a shell of what they were then.

 

And krogan can inhabit very harsh environments, hence why the Council gave them planets formerly inhabited by the rachni after wiping them out.

 

Better if they are not both around to compete for resources, especially for the krogan. The last thing I'd want is for them to go back to a military/conquest culture.

Krogan were backed by the Asari and Salarians who provided them with weapons, ships, resources. Now those will be supporting the Rachni and you'll also have turians and humans. The Rachni would not be alone in the fight. But without the Rachni, the Krogan will outnumber all Council races with their ridiculous birth rates. Rachni provide the necessary numbers to counter the krogan. 

I'm sure there will be quite a few planets ready for settling after the Reaper War. Enough to have both :)

 

That's all assuming the krogan go to war. I don't think it's going to be the case, but I like to have a backup just in case ;)



#20
Vortex13

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Wat. The krogan curbstomped the rachni when they were a force that threatened the entire galaxy. Now the rchni are a shell of what they were then.

 

And krogan can inhabit very harsh environments, hence why the Council gave them planets formerly inhabited by the rachni after wiping them out.

 

Better if they are not both around to compete for resources, especially for the krogan. The last thing I'd want is for them to go back to a military/conquest culture.

 

 

The Krogan were the turning point of the Rachni Wars, but they didn't single handedly defeat them.

 

It was the Rachni vs. the Asari, Salarians & Krogan during their invasion. The Krogan's uplift by the Salarians gave the rest of the galaxy the edge they needed to push back, but the Citadel races had held off the Rachni advance for more than a century before the Krogan showed up.



#21
Vortex13

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Excellent analysis. I regreted how terribly the rachni were overlooked before but this is the first time I regret killing the queen in 3. Of course at that point I stand by my decision. Throughout the series we're constantly told nothing can resist indoctrination. Even Shiala still feels it and its only the Zhu's Hope colonists that keep her from turning (the thorian was another huge opportunity they just threw away btw). That and the queen looked Reapified to me when I saw her in ME3 for the first time. I've been told it's just how her textures ended up but metallic looking and glowing blue looks a lot like a Reaper to me.

 

But the main point is the precedent has been unwaveringly set as indoctrination is inevitable with exposure. What do we have besides the queen's word that she's immune?

 
Thanks for reading  :)
 
 
I'm with you on the Queen's texture in ME 3, I don't know why BioWare wanted to change it. Not only did she look Reaper-y, but it also didn't help that she practically blended in with background texture of the caves making the scene with her a little distracting.
 
 
Also spot on about the Thorian, it's funny how all of the really 'alien' aliens got less and less screen time devoted to them as the series moved on.
 
 
 
Anyways on to the Rachni's resistance to indoctrination. As I have said this is just a theory of mine I don't have any codex or wiki facts to back this up, only what we are shown in-game. However, we have 3 elements shown or inferred within the Queen's very brief appearance in ME 3 that coupled with some of the lore about Reaper subversion leads me to believe that the Rachni are incredibly resilient, if not board-line immune to indoctrination.
 
 
 
  • Firstly, we know that the Queen was captured sometime between Mass Effect 2, and when we see her in ME 3. Judging by the set up of her confinement and the number of Ravangers during the war we can assume that she had to have been held prisoner for at least a month or two, if not longer.  This is important to note for several reasons, but the most telling one is how she still retained her free will and desire to fight; compare this to the Salarian STG team that was captured by Saren in Mass Effect 1 and were broken in a matter of a few days. 
 
Now you could say that the Reapers were only using a passive form of indoctrination, whereas Sovereign was using a more intense and active form of it, but that makes no sense when you consider that all the Reapers were using the Queen for was literally a baby factory. They didn't plan to turn her into a sleeper agent and then send her out against former allies, all she was used for was to birth bodies for husk-ification. There are no higher thought processes that are involved in giving birth, so why would they leave the Queen in possession of all of her mental faculties?
 
It seems to me that they couldn't break her, that her will was too strong. This would line up with mentions of strong willed individuals like Shepard, Saren, and TIM, all of whom were able to fight against raw indoctrination, and in Saren and TIM's case physical implants, and go against Reaper control. It would also make sense that the Queen would be remarkably strong willed if she needs to direct all the soldiers, drones and workers in her hive.  
 
 
 
  • Going off that point, why did the Reapers convert all the Rachni under the Queen's command into Ravengers? We know that the forces of the hive defer to a queen's orders, so why wouldn't the Reapers just indoctrinate the Queen and then have her send out her soldiers to attack the forces defending the galaxy? It would certainly take less time to send the Rachni out as is than to convert them into husks. Also, using the normal Rachni would allow the Reapers to infiltrate allied forces with an army that didn't immediately scream "Cyber Zombie".  
 
Maybe the Reapers had to convert the Rachni, because the Queen couldn't be broken, and she would just order her forces to attack and disrupt the Reaper's ground forces otherwise. 
 
 
 
  • Lastly, we have the "Not-Queen" if you didn't spare the original in the first game. Now, granted this uses a bit of meta knowledge, but look at how even the Rachni "Frankenstein" had to be shackled and contained. Unlike the Queen, the Franken-Queen was specifically created by the Reapers, for their purposes, and yet she was still bucking agains their restraints. The Reapers still had to resort to conversion of the Rachni born from the artificial Queen, and they still had to keep her chained up because she refused to go along with their agenda. 
 
Now this Queen was selfish, and more than a little crazy, but she wasn't in any way acting in accordance with her masters' wishes. Even when she rebels and attacks the Crucible staff, it was more inline with her semi-psychotic nature rather than a grand ploy by the Reapers.
 

A few other points, randomly. First off the rachni are not the only species to unanimously agree to oppose the Reapers. The True Geth pledge their support as early as ME2 via Legion and have all the advantages you mention the rachni having (minus the natural weapons, though they are still stated to have the most advanced weaponry of this cycle), with the added benefit of shields, fleets, the ability to operate in vacuum and lack of centralization (separation of individual platforms notwithstanding). ME3 of course screws everything up with the whole quarian war. But Shepard with the Geth and Rachni behind him would've already had the means to singlehandedly oppose the Reapers at least for a time, or more intelligently, to start mobilizing the rest of the galaxy to prepare, through force if necessary. Of course he had to twiddle his thumbs in the brig because idiot balls were aplenty.  <_<

 
 
You are right, the True Geth did offer their unified aid as well; chronologically however, the Rachni did offer their assistance first   :lol:.
 
 
Outside of that though, the Geth made a rather odd choice in trying to help Shepard. While the Queen was building up her army, the Geth devoted all of their resources into trying to build their "Dyson Sphere". Now it could have been a Geth super weapon, but all tertiary details point to it just being a massive information hub; they were literally putting all of their eggs into one basket, and from a certain perspective, looked to be trying to hide rather than building up ships and weapons to contribute to the fight. 
 
 
 
I would have loved to see your last point happen in-game though. Shepard flying over to the Citadel with a massive Geth and Rachni fleet, and declaring that everyone drop what they were doing and start preparing. 
 

Secondly, curing the genophage isn't as much of a favor to the krogan as it's made out to be. In fact you may have doomed them to extinction via overpopulation. Like you said historically, controlling their population hasn't been their strongsuit. Well now they have to or perish. The entire galaxy's infrastructure is shattered, the krogan's even more so, since it came to the war pre-shattered. Understatment of the thread: Tuchanka doesn't strike me as particularly fertile. So not only are the krogan very low in resources, the rest of the galaxy isn't going to help much because a) they need resources themselves and b ) no one's going to make the same mistake twice and give the krogan what they need to expand. Thus they have a simple choice: they learn to manage what they have with what they have (which means no population explosion a la Krogan Rebellions) or they go extinct. Leaving the genophage alone may have been the kinder option. On the other hand, they're now free to decide their own fate and endure the test of natural selection: they adapt or they die.

 

 

 

This is true, but my point was more about how the Krogan (essentially) held the galaxy hostage until the Genophage was dealt with, than the long term applications of it. Dooming the galaxy to die simply because they don't like their circumstances doesn't really strike me as a reliable, or trustworthy ally. 



#22
ImaginaryMatter

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Indoctrination does make the victim less useful to the Reapers over time. Maybe, the Reapers didn't want the Queen's brain to turn to mush and somehow make her useless on the egg laying front.

 

Another idea I had is that maybe the queen's insect system is different enough that Indoctrination simply doesn't work.



#23
bunch1

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The problem for the Rachni is that they were reduced to a single queen about 3 years before the war and were trying to stay off the radar meaning she wasn't pumping out a huge amont of children lest the council find them and wiped them out so I would be hard pressed to say they even number a few hundred thousand at the time the war starts where as even if the Krogan are a dying race there are still billions of them spread all across the galaxy with 2.1 billion on Tuchanka alone.  The war is a matter of numbers and the alliance needs them now, not in 10 years and so they need the massavie army that the krogan can bring to bear and only through the possibility of curing the genophange can all the wandering mercinaries and bounty hunters be called back into the fight to fight for the future.



#24
Vortex13

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Indoctrination does make the victim less useful to the Reapers over time. Maybe, the Reapers didn't want the Queen's brain to turn to mush and somehow make her useless on the egg laying front.

 

Another idea I had is that maybe the queen's insect system is different enough that Indoctrination simply doesn't work.

 

 

My money would be your second idea. I don't see how breaking the Queen would have be detrimental to using her as a baby factory. 

 

 

The Rachni, and Thorian are very unique and 'alien' compared to the rest of the galaxy, maybe the Reapers' indoctrination only works on sentient beings that have a similar physiological make up to us? I mean aside from appearances humans, Turians, Salarians, Krogan, Asari, etc. are all very similar in their mindsets, personalities and motivations; they all have a very 'human' element to them.

 

Maybe it's that 'commonality' that indoctrination targets, it would certainly explain why the Rachni and the Thorian have displayed such high tolerance for prolonged exposure, with the Thorian actually being able to reverse it's effect to a degree.   



#25
Vortex13

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The problem for the Rachni is that they were reduced to a single queen about 3 years before the war and were trying to stay off the radar meaning she wasn't pumping out a huge amont of children lest the council find them and wiped them out so I would be hard pressed to say they even number a few hundred thousand at the time the war starts where as even if the Krogan are a dying race there are still billions of them spread all across the galaxy with 2.1 billion on Tuchanka alone.  The war is a matter of numbers and the alliance needs them now, not in 10 years and so they need the massavie army that the krogan can bring to bear and only through the possibility of curing the genophange can all the wandering mercinaries and bounty hunters be called back into the fight to fight for the future.

 

 

The Queen may have been laying low prior to the Reaper invasion, but with the war going on, and the Rachni working with the rest of galaxy, I don't see any reason why the Queen would need to hold back. Even if we assume that birthing more queens would take too long, you still have to consider that just one queen is capable of laying a massive clutch of eggs every few hours, and that those eggs will hatch and mature in a matter of weeks. Compare this to the Krogan, even without the Genophage their females can only have 1,000 young over the span of one year, and those young Krogan take decades (at least) to mature.

 

If we are looking at raw baby making power, the Krogan may have the single Rachni Queen beat but they can't hold a candle to the speed in which the Rachni can replenish and resupply their forces with combat capable soldiers. 

 

 

 

Also how many of those Krogan forces are actually able to contribute to the fight? We have to assume that at least the females; a sizable portion of the population; are going to be left behind, as well as the males breeding with/protecting them. We can see several males attempting to hold the line on Tuchunka during the ending(s) so we can see that not every able bodied male would be fighting the good fight on Palavan and Earth.

 

The Rachni have no need for such reservations, as long as the Queen is kept out of Reaper tentacles she can devote her entire population to the fight, and replenish said population with soldiers faster than the Krogan can.