74 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm... I see no fault in your logic. You may have just saved the queen for me.

 

On the topic of Ravagers vs rachni, I will say the Ravagers provide a much more specialized role of artillery than the regular rachni we've seen. Otherwise the Reapers certainly don't lack for numbers and like your point with the queen have no need to build designated infiltrators.

 

As for the more alien races and their decreased prominence, I can only conclude they've been sacrificed to the holokid and his bullshit brand of "art". Think about it. Both the rachni and thorian are organic lifeforms that fly in the face of the holokid's nonsense prediction of organics always building Skynet. Hell the thorian alone is probably a better solution to that "problem" since it controls its thralls better than the Leviathans ever did. And the geth were obviously cooperating prior to the quarian's ridiculous war, another middle finger in the endings' direction.

 

Blame the "art" for the destruction of the some of the most interesting staples of the ME universe. It already destroyed everything else.

[Vortex13]

@Vortex13 - I'll address points 1 and 3 since they are connected. The 90 marine example does not work in Reaper War since in that situation the Rachni had superior numbers. In Reaper War they lose one of their biggest advantages - numbers. You can see how the guard team in Noveria hold their constant assaults for a long time due to simply having a better position. The lack of shields makes the Rachni vulnerable, their charge will be slowed by husk and brute waves and they will be picked from afar by marauders and cannibals. 

 

 

The Rachni couldn't Zerg rush their targets it's true, but I never envisioned that as their role in the war either. Once recruited to the war effort the Krogan weren't used as cannon fodder, so why would we assume that the Rachni would be? It would make far more sense to utilize smaller swarms in conjunction with other species' forces as a hit and run, hunter/killer squads. 

 

Having Rachni backup would provide a major boon to ground forces having to deal with Husks, Brutes, and Banshees allowing the ranged soldiers to focus on dealing with the Marauders and Cannibals. Also, employing the Rachni to invalidate Reaper kinetic barriers would provide the forces fighting on the ground more of a sting against the Reapers themselves. 

[bunch1]

The Queen may have been laying low prior to the Reaper invasion, but with the war going on, and the Rachni working with the rest of galaxy, I don't see any reason why the Queen would need to hold back. Even if we assume that birthing more queens would take too long, you still have to consider that just one queen is capable of laying a massive clutch of eggs every few hours, and that those eggs will hatch and mature in a matter of weeks. Compare this to the Krogan, even without the Genophage their females can only have 1,000 young over the span of one year, and those young Krogan take decades (at least) to mature.

 

If we are looking at raw baby making power, the Krogan may have the single Rachni Queen beat but they can't hold a candle to the speed in which the Rachni can replenish and resupply their forces with combat capable soldiers. 

I know the Rachini are able to reproduce quickly but all we know for sure is that they are able to start a colony in days and the number of Rachni considered a colony is up for debate.  I would be intressted to know also just how many of those Rachni would be actual warriors since most Rachni are boound to be workers right unless the queen has the ability to determine which breed they are before they are born.

 

Also important to remember is that the Rachni were a massive technologically advanced empire with a hell of alot of queens and worlds at the time of the Rachni Wars and even then they still lost to Krogan infantry.  Sure they themselves had just been uplifted and were actually reproducing at a maximum as were the Rachni which they can't now, which neither can the Rachni with only 1 queen, but with the genophage cured and the possiblity of centuries of fighting the Reapers as has gone on every other cycle it's clear that even if the Rachni could throw more soldiers into the fight over the course of the next 20 years the Krogan will provide a supuior force over the next 300.

[Vortex13]

I know the Rachini are able to reproduce quickly but all we know for sure is that they are able to start a colony in days and the number of Rachni considered a colony is up for debate.  I would be interested to know also just how many of those Rachni would be actual warriors since most Rachni are bound to be workers right unless the queen has the ability to determine which breed they are before they are born.

 

Also important to remember is that the Rachni were a massive technologically advanced empire with a hell of alot of queens and worlds at the time of the Rachni Wars and even then they still lost to Krogan infantry.  Sure they themselves had just been uplifted and were actually reproducing at a maximum as were the Rachni which they can't now, which neither can the Rachni with only 1 queen, but with the genophage cured and the possibility of centuries of fighting the Reapers as has gone on every other cycle it's clear that even if the Rachni could throw more soldiers into the fight over the course of the next 20 years the Krogan will provide a superior force over the next 300.

 

 

I would imagine that the Queen can determine how an egg will develop in the same way that ants and bees can determine how their larva develop. If they employ anything similar to royal jelly than they can actually determine what egg will grow into what mature Rachni.

 

As far as logistics are concerned, even if we assume that one queen is only capable of laying 50 eggs every 3 hours that's still 400 eggs in a 24 hour period. 400 eggs that the Queen can choose to develop into 400 soldiers who, being conservative, would fully mature in let's say 3-4 weeks. So in 1 month you have 400 fully mature soldiers with their own built in weaponry and armor ready to join the fight, and if the queen was constantly laying eggs, you would have another 11,600 soldiers ready to go over the course of the next 30 days.

 

The established birth rate for the Krogan is 1,000 over the course of 1 year, which if broken down into a monthly rate you are only looking at 83 young per month. Of those 83 children there is a 50/50 chance that they will be male or female, and considering the Krogan's desire to keep their females back from the front lines we can assume that half of those 83 newborns are going to be deemed too important for combat. So rounding up, you have 42 Krogan male newborns per month who, being conservative, would take let's say 20 - 25 years to reach maturity. 

 

Now we also have to consider that there are many, many more Krogan females, than Rachni queens at the moment so the Krogan will outpace the Rachni in terms of sheer numbers, but even then you would be looking at a quarter of a century for your investment to pay off. That is also not considering the possibility of the Queen having daughter queens to help in the war effort, a group of 4 or 5 queens laying eggs constantly is going to be generating a considerable amount of soldiers to the fight every month. 

 

 

 

And, if we're talking about a long, drawn out fight against the Reapers, a la the Prothean cycle, then yes, the Krogan would be able to supply more bodies, but they would also be more vulnerable to attack. The Krogan young will need a place to grow and develop, some place that can supply them with the decades of food and water they need as they mature, and those places are prime targets for orbital bombardment. The Rachni on the other hand can quite literally lay eggs in an assembly line fashion and due to their rapid gestation, they wouldn't really need ample space or supplies if the newly grown soldiers would be shipped off to fight.

 

Also the Rachni can survive in much harsher environments, without the need for protection than the Krogan could. Yes, Tuchanka is a harsh planet, but it still has a breathable atmosphere capable of supporting the Krogan, humans, Turians, etc walking around on it. The Rachni however, have been seen establishing colonies on planets with atmospheres ranging from argon and sulfur dioxide to nitrogen and ethane, atmospheres that the Krogan Wrex had to wear sealed space suits in. The Rachni's tolerance to such extremes means they can colonize out of the way planets that would be harder for the Reapers to locate.

 

The number of "Krogan-friendly" planets with breathable atmospheres is considerably less than the number of planets with non-compatible atmospheres and Rachni hardiness means that they can inhabit a far wider range of systems than the Krogan can.  

[bunch1]

I would imagine that the Queen can determine how an egg will develop in the same way that ants and bees can determine how their larva develop. If they employ anything similar to royal jelly than they can actually determine what egg will grow into what mature Rachni.

 

As far as logistics are concerned, even if we assume that one queen is only capable of laying 50 eggs every 3 hours that's still 400 eggs in a 24 hour period. 400 eggs that the Queen can choose to develop into 400 soldiers who, being conservative, would fully mature in let's say 3-4 weeks. So in 1 month you have 400 fully mature soldiers with their own built in weaponry and armor ready to join the fight, and if the queen was constantly laying eggs, you would have another 11,600 soldiers ready to go over the course of the next 30 days.

 

The established birth rate for the Krogan is 1,000 over the course of 1 year, which if broken down into a monthly rate you are only looking at 83 young per month. Of those 83 children there is a 50/50 chance that they will be male or female, and considering the Krogan's desire to keep their females back from the front lines we can assume that half of those 83 newborns are going to be deemed too important for combat. So rounding up, you have 42 Krogan male newborns per month who, being conservative, would take let's say 20 - 25 years to reach maturity. 

 

Now we also have to consider that there are many, many more Krogan females, than Rachni queens at the moment so the Krogan will outpace the Rachni in terms of sheer numbers, but even then you would be looking at a quarter of a century for your investment to pay off. That is also not considering the possibility of the Queen having daughter queens to help in the war effort, a group of 4 or 5 queens laying eggs constantly is going to be generating a considerable amount of soldiers to the fight every month. 

 

 

 

And, if we're talking about a long, drawn out fight against the Reapers, a la the Prothean cycle, then yes, the Krogan would be able to supply more bodies, but they would also be more vulnerable to attack. The Krogan young will need a place to grow and develop, some place that can supply them with the decades of food and water they need as they mature, and those places are prime targets for orbital bombardment. The Rachni on the other hand can quite literally lay eggs in an assembly line fashion and due to their rapid gestation, they wouldn't really need ample space or supplies if the newly grown soldiers would be shipped off to fight.

 

Also the Rachni can survive in much harsher environments, without the need for protection than the Krogan could. Yes, Tuchanka is a harsh planet, but it still has a breathable atmosphere capable of supporting the Krogan, humans, Turians, etc walking around on it. The Rachni however, have been seen establishing colonies on planets with atmospheres ranging from argon and sulfur dioxide to nitrogen and ethane, atmospheres that the Krogan Wrex had to wear sealed space suits in. The Rachni's tolerance to such extremes means they can colonize out of the way planets that would be harder for the Reapers to locate.

 

The number of "Krogan-friendly" planets with breathable atmospheres is considerably less than the number of planets with non-compatible atmospheres and Rachni hardiness means that they can inhabit a far wider range of systems than the Krogan can.  

I love the math here but I I don't see the queen only birthing soldiers since she and the young are going to need food and massive chambers carved out for them so there are going to have to be alot of workers tending the colony.  Lifespan of the diferent Rachni strains is also a variable we don't know.  They are clearly an insectoid inspired species and ants show that lifespans very depending on which strain they are with queens living alot longer then wokers who themselves outlive males.  A Krogan will live 1000+ years and be combat capable for almost all of it if he isn't killed but how long will a Rachni warrior live before he has to be replaced because of time?  Thats not factoring in the enviornment which may be dangerous on those extreme worlds reduceing overall lifespans either through predation, natrual disaster or some kind of sustained enviornmental action that wears away at the Rachni's health, particulary the smaller less protected workers.

 

Factor in that there are 1 billion females on Tuchaka alone, the Krogan DMZ likly also has several other inhabited worlds, who produce 1000 egg clutchs, even with the genophage thats still 1 per and that is 1 billion new Krogan every year, 500 million soldiers.  Also it won't take 20 years since they have been breeding as a state program since the genophage so even in the curent year there should be tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of young Krogan reaching maturity in time for battle.  Now cure the genopahge and do the math, 1 billion x 1 thousand = 1 trillion, thats 500 billion soldiers a year from 1 world until those 500 billion new females become fertile, then it will be insane.  The question here is how much food is needed to sustain a krogan youth, they come from a harsh world so they may need comparitivly little food or their going to need massive support from garden world across the galaxy to feed them but the Rachni are going to need to eat to so I would call that a wash.  Yes, queens produce more children but even after decades your not likly to had thousands of them, particuarly on 1 planet since each rules their own hive and if I recall they do get territorial with eachother, could be wrong though.  If they were able to outbreed the Krogan they wouldn't have lost the Rachni Wars after all and they started with a larger population then and a smaller one now.

 

I understand the thought that they would have to protected and provided for during infancy and that the worlds there on could simply be destroyed but Javik proved that even after centuries there are going to be worlds that have yet to be attacked by the Reapers.

 

As for natrual weapons and armor, Rachni armor didn't fair to well aginst modern firearms in either ME1 or ME3.  They may fair better aginst husks but it would be equal to or less then combat armor aginst cannibls and maruaders and their natrual acid spit dosen't have the same range as a slug thrower.  Even in close quarters they don't fair better then average, Grunt's stand during the Rachni mission in ME3 showed that even in close it takes a dozen or more Rachni to equal 1 enraged Krogan.  I know he's better then most so half that and 1 Krogan is still worth more then 4-6 Rachni.

 

One thing this conversation remided me of though.  The Rachni were used a weapon by the Prothean and then turned on them and it took them some time to wipe them out, only they didn't.  But still the Reapers either left them alone dispite fighting a intersteller war with their former masters or simply didn't find them.  If the queen was smart she would just run off and try to hide some eggs on some desolate worlds and hope they survives into the next cycle.  Even if it took 40 thousand years to hatch they would still have 10k+ years to get ready for the next harvest and give the reapers a suprise.  I doubt it would happen but it gives me hope that maybe they played a big role in stoping the reapers in the refusal ending, if they lived, and that is one of the reasons Shepard is still so well regarded.  The man who saved the spcies, twice, who saved the galaxy.

[Vortex13]

I love the math here but I I don't see the queen only birthing soldiers since she and the young are going to need food and massive chambers carved out for them so there are going to have to be alot of workers tending the colony.  Lifespan of the diferent Rachni strains is also a variable we don't know.  They are clearly an insectoid inspired species and ants show that lifespans very depending on which strain they are with queens living alot longer then wokers who themselves outlive males.  A Krogan will live 1000+ years and be combat capable for almost all of it if he isn't killed but how long will a Rachni warrior live before he has to be replaced because of time?  Thats not factoring in the enviornment which may be dangerous on those extreme worlds reduceing overall lifespans either through predation, natrual disaster or some kind of sustained enviornmental action that wears away at the Rachni's health, particulary the smaller less protected workers.

 

Factor in that there are 1 billion females on Tuchaka alone, the Krogan DMZ likly also has several other inhabited worlds, who produce 1000 egg clutchs, even with the genophage thats still 1 per and that is 1 billion new Krogan every year, 500 million soldiers.  Also it won't take 20 years since they have been breeding as a state program since the genophage so even in the curent year there should be tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of young Krogan reaching maturity in time for battle.  Now cure the genopahge and do the math, 1 billion x 1 thousand = 1 trillion, thats 500 billion soldiers a year from 1 world until those 500 billion new females become fertile, then it will be insane.  The question here is how much food is needed to sustain a krogan youth, they come from a harsh world so they may need comparitivly little food or their going to need massive support from garden world across the galaxy to feed them but the Rachni are going to need to eat to so I would call that a wash.  Yes, queens produce more children but even after decades your not likly to had thousands of them, particuarly on 1 planet since each rules their own hive and if I recall they do get territorial with eachother, could be wrong though.  If they were able to outbreed the Krogan they wouldn't have lost the Rachni Wars after all and they started with a larger population then and a smaller one now.

 

I understand the thought that they would have to protected and provided for during infancy and that the worlds there on could simply be destroyed but Javik proved that even after centuries there are going to be worlds that have yet to be attacked by the Reapers.

 

As for natrual weapons and armor, Rachni armor didn't fair to well aginst modern firearms in either ME1 or ME3.  They may fair better aginst husks but it would be equal to or less then combat armor aginst cannibls and maruaders and their natrual acid spit dosen't have the same range as a slug thrower.  Even in close quarters they don't fair better then average, Grunt's stand during the Rachni mission in ME3 showed that even in close it takes a dozen or more Rachni to equal 1 enraged Krogan.  I know he's better then most so half that and 1 Krogan is still worth more then 4-6 Rachni.

 

One thing this conversation remided me of though.  The Rachni were used a weapon by the Prothean and then turned on them and it took them some time to wipe them out, only they didn't.  But still the Reapers either left them alone dispite fighting a intersteller war with their former masters or simply didn't find them.  If the queen was smart she would just run off and try to hide some eggs on some desolate worlds and hope they survives into the next cycle.  Even if it took 40 thousand years to hatch they would still have 10k+ years to get ready for the next harvest and give the reapers a suprise.  I doubt it would happen but it gives me hope that maybe they played a big role in stoping the reapers in the refusal ending, if they lived, and that is one of the reasons Shepard is still so well regarded.  The man who saved the spcies, twice, who saved the galaxy.

 

 

 

You make a lot of good points.

 

Ultimately, I would say that a long term war with the Reapers would eventually see the advantages of the Krogan vs. the Rachni even out. In the end, both would provide about the same level of military ground forces, if you factor in the logistics involved with keeping their respective populations supplied, the need for suitable space to house their numbers, and the myriad of advantages/disadvantages that the unique biology of each species offers.

 

I will agree with you though and say that the Rachni's propensity for survival would give them a leg up in potentially surviving a Reaper harvest compared to the Krogan.

 

 

 

As far as one-on-one strength is concerned, I don't think that Grunt's stand in Mass Effect 3 is a fair example, not only because of the reason you gave of Grunt being a genetically engineered Krogan, but he was also fighting Ravengers, not Rachni. The process of converting a Rachni into a husk seems to have removed their close combat capabilities, as their arms have been replaced with long range cannons. The fact that a Krogan, specifically created to be the perfect soldier, was ripping apart converted Rachni, with no real melee prowess, shouldn't be surprising. 

 

The only in-game example of Krogan fighting actual Rachni would be in Mass Effect 1, if the player has Wrex in their squad, and going by that depiction it appears that a single Krogan can find even one soldier to be a challenge, even more so if the party was fighting Brood Warriors and/or the game was on insanity difficulty. Now obviously there is a degree of difference between game-play mechanics and lore, but with everything considered I would have to say that a Krogan warrior and Rachni soldier would be evenly matched or at most be a 2:1 ratio in the Krogan's favor. If we add Brood Warriors in the mix, I would say that the ratio would switch to the Rachni's favor. 

 

 

 

 

I guess a more prominent factor in which species would be better as an ally would boil down to how they would get along with the rest of the galaxy. Consider the following: 

 

• The Rachni instigated the Rachni Wars true, but the Krogan did start the Krogan Rebellions. Both were incredibly devastating to the galaxy at large. 

 

• The Rachni Queen is willing to work with Shepard without any stipulations or concessions made, whereas Wrex/Wreave refuses to send aid unless the Genophage is cured.

 

• The Krogan have a deep seated resentment of the Turians and Salarians for their part in the Genophage, and have made it publicly know on numerous occasions that they wouldn't hesitate to kill all of them if they could (ME 1 & ME 2 dialogues). The Queen harbors no grudges against the galaxy for the outcomes of the Rachni Wars.

 

• Wrex is willing to have the Krogan withdraw from the alliance and start attacking human personal when he discovers the Genophage cure was sabotaged, the Queen is willing to let Shepard leave her to die if he/she feels rescuing her would be too risky.

 

• Etc. 

 

From where I am sitting, the Rachni would seem to make a far more reliable ally than the Krogan would politically speaking, to say nothing of the Rachni's natural talents at engineering that would certainly come in handy in the rebuilding process after the war.

[Pasquale1234]

Great discussion. 
 

This is true, but my point was more about how the Krogan (essentially) held the galaxy hostage until the Genophage was dealt with, than the long term applications of it. Dooming the galaxy to die simply because they don't like their circumstances doesn't really strike me as a reliable, or trustworthy ally.

It may be equally fair to say that the Krogan were held hostage until the genophage was dealt with. There are several reasons for this:

-- Their inability to repopulate severely curbed their appetite and ability to engage in all-out war. It was the genophage, after all, that kept them at bay for several centuries.

-- Tuchanka has multiple clans and constant inter-clan rivalries. Curing the genophage made it possible for Wrex/Wreave to unite the clans and provide strong support for the war.

-- If Eve survives, she also serves as an emissary to rally greater clan support.

-- A cured genophage gives the Krogan hope for a very different sort of future for their species - that in itself can be highly motivational and inspire the troops. I mean, really, why would individual soldiers be interested in contributing to the survival of the species that inflicted the genophage on them?

Overall, I question how much support Wrex/Wreave could have mustered without a genophage cure. With it, all of Tuchanka united and rallied to the cause.

[bunch1]

I guess a more prominent factor in which species would be better as an ally would boil down to how they would get along with the rest of the galaxy. Consider the following: 

 

• The Rachni instigated the Rachni Wars true, but the Krogan did start the Krogan Rebellions. Both were incredibly devastating to the galaxy at large. 

 

• The Rachni Queen is willing to work with Shepard without any stipulations or concessions made, whereas Wrex/Wreave refuses to send aid unless the Genophage is cured.

 

• The Krogan have a deep seated resentment of the Turians and Salarians for their part in the Genophage, and have made it publicly know on numerous occasions that they wouldn't hesitate to kill all of them if they could (ME 1 & ME 2 dialogues). The Queen harbors no grudges against the galaxy for the outcomes of the Rachni Wars.

 

• Wrex is willing to have the Krogan withdraw from the alliance and start attacking human personal when he discovers the Genophage cure was sabotaged, the Queen is willing to let Shepard leave her to die if he/she feels rescuing her would be too risky.

 

• Etc. 

 

From where I am sitting, the Rachni would seem to make a far more reliable ally than the Krogan would politically speaking, to say nothing of the Rachni's natural talents at engineering that would certainly come in handy in the rebuilding process after the war.

This is true but you have to rember that the Rachni are a hive mind.  That means all it will take for the Rachni to turn on the galaxy at large is 1 or 2 queens deciding to send their broods off to slaughter and conquer the rest will almost certinaly be drawn into it because of their own history with the galaxy.  Sure, a carismatic and strong leader can unite the clans but each Krogan still has to choose to follow or not.  The Krogan are not a unifed as proven by the clan strife that wracks Tuchaka.  Personally I don't think either is better then the other.

 

 

As far as one-on-one strength is concerned, I don't think that Grunt's stand in Mass Effect 3 is a fair example, not only because of the reason you gave of Grunt being a genetically engineered Krogan, but he was also fighting Ravengers, not Rachni. The process of converting a Rachni into a husk seems to have removed their close combat capabilities, as their arms have been replaced with long range cannons. The fact that a Krogan, specifically created to be the perfect soldier, was ripping apart converted Rachni, with no real melee prowess, shouldn't be surprising. 

 

The only in-game example of Krogan fighting actual Rachni would be in Mass Effect 1, if the player has Wrex in their squad, and going by that depiction it appears that a single Krogan can find even one soldier to be a challenge, even more so if the party was fighting Brood Warriors and/or the game was on insanity difficulty. Now obviously there is a degree of difference between game-play mechanics and lore, but with everything considered I would have to say that a Krogan warrior and Rachni soldier would be evenly matched or at most be a 2:1 ratio in the Krogan's favor. If we add Brood Warriors in the mix, I would say that the ratio would switch to the Rachni's favor. 

I'll give you that those weren't real Rachni but the fact that the reapers thought it was worth while to take away the cqc advantage to give them a heavy ranged attack should show what they thought was more worth while.  That aside we do have examples of humans fighting Rachni outside of Shepards squad in ME1.  Both the corprate securtiy and Alliance Marines.  The Rachni are very good ambushers and there first assults are always described as devestating but if you can survive that strike and know there coming then a it is relativly easy to hold them back.  The marines in particualer with only 3-6 soldiers and 1 or 2 turets are able to decimate the Rachni waves as they attack the outpost, it's the sheer numbers that were wearing them down as exhustion set in, the same is true for the corp. security on Novaria, not the particular warrior skils of the Rachni.

[CrutchCricket]

Still catching up on posts, but a follow up to our indoctrination discussion.

 

If the queen is immune or highly resistant, what was the "sour note" that forced them to keep attacking in the Rachni wars? That's generally understood to be outside control of some sort. If not the Reapers, who? Leviathans? That shifts the discussion to indoctrination vs enthrallment.

 

The Leviathans say indoctrination is a prefected form of enthrallment. If that's true how can enthrallment control the queen when indoctrination can't? Though indoctrination has never been seen being used as the instant takeover enthrallment has...

[Vortex13]

Still catching up on posts, but a follow up to our indoctrination discussion.

 

If the queen is immune or highly resistant, what was the "sour note" that forced them to keep attacking in the Rachni wars? That's generally understood to be outside control of some sort. If not the Reapers, who? Leviathans? That shifts the discussion to indoctrination vs enthrallment.

 

The Leviathans say indoctrination is a perfected form of enthrallment. If that's true how can enthrallment control the queen when indoctrination can't? Though indoctrination has never been seen being used as the instant takeover enthrallment has...

 

 

I'm of the opinion that it was the Leviathans that pulled the strings during the Rachni Wars, it makes far more sense that they would be behind the invasion if they were trying to stop the cycle. 

 

 

Anyway, enthrallment seems to be a much more focused and powerful means of control compared to indoctrination's broad and 'always on' area of effect. Look at how the Leviathans render Shepard completely helpless when they subject him/her to a mind probe. Enthrallment seems to only work as long as targets are within range of the Leviathans, or their orbs, and the Leviathans themselves are actively trying to influence others, but it does seem to provide instant and complete control over their victims. They have demonstrated the capacity to directly assume control over people, including Shepard, as well as subverting Reaper control over husks, and even mind flaying a Sovereign class Reaper dreadnought.

 

Indoctrination, on the other hand, seems  to be less effective against individuals, especially those of exceptional will. Consider how Shepard has demonstrated the ability to fight off waves of attackers while under constant attack by the Reapers' signal emanating from Object Rho in the Arrival DLC, and was also able to fight direct manipulation and shoot TIM, the Reaper Avatar on the Citadel. Even Saren and TIM were able to go against full blown indoctrination, as well as physical implants, and kill themselves over following Reaper commands. Indoctrination is powerful, but it doesn't seem to have nearly the same level of control that  enthrallment has, at least on an individual basis. 

 

 

When the Leviathans call indoctrination "Enthrallment perfected" maybe they mean how it can continue after death, how the Reapers' control transcends their own existence? They tended to view themselves as physical gods, so maybe they see something that can control 'lesser species' even after destruction as something to strive for?

 

 

If this is correct it would explain why the Rachni were susceptible to enthrallment but not indoctrination. Enthrallment seems to be straight up mind control, with the Leviathan mentally dominating their targets, while indoctrination seems to be a technological attempt at mimicking it. The Codex does make mention how the indoctrination effect is: "a field that surrounds Reaper technology that generates an electromagnetic field, waves of infra-sound and ultra-sound, or both, in order to to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system."  It does stand to reason the the Rachni have a very different anatomy/physiology than the other species of the galaxy and would therefore be immune to the specific designs of the Reaper signal.

[Vortex13]

This is true but you have to remember that the Rachni are a hive mind.  That means all it will take for the Rachni to turn on the galaxy at large is 1 or 2 queens deciding to send their broods off to slaughter and conquer the rest will almost certainly be drawn into it because of their own history with the galaxy.  Sure, a charismatic and strong leader can unite the clans but each Krogan still has to choose to follow or not.  The Krogan are not as unified as proven by the clan strife that wracks Tuchaka.  Personally I don't think either is better then the other.

 

Conflict in the future is possible granted, but the Rachni do have the advantage of all sharing the 'genetic memory' of their ancestors, it's why the current Queen was able to relate the location of the Mu Relay and why she knew about the 'sour yellow note' that compromised the Rachni during their invasion. It would also stand to reason that any daughters born of the Queen would remember the kindness that Shepard showed in sparing them, and the galaxy's united effort to fight the Reapers. 

 

Now, its true that dissent could arise and conflict could happen, but I would think it far more likely that the Rachni's communal knowledge would tend to alleviate hostilities.

 

 

Compare this to the Krogan who have shown to have quite the selective memory when it comes to galactic events. Wrex, who is either a direct observer of the Krogan Rebellions/Genophage deployment or a son of a person who was, conveniently forgets to mention the atrocities that the Krogan inflicted on the galaxy at large and the Turians in particular. He always holds up Krogan stillborn as a grave injustice, but makes no mention of the 3 garden worlds that his species rendered completely uninhabitable via redirected asteroids; and he is supposed to be one of the more 'understanding' Krogan there is. 

 

 

The Rachni were driven to near extinction, but are still willing to work with Shepard and the rest of the galaxy, nor do they hold the outcome of the Rachni Wars over people's heads. The Krogan have their birth rate reduced, but not eliminated entirely, and their entire society collapses, and they do hold the outcome of the Krogan Rebellions over everyone's heads.

 

 

I'll give you that those weren't real Rachni but the fact that the reapers thought it was worth while to take away the cqc advantage to give them a heavy ranged attack should show what they thought was more worth while.  That aside we do have examples of humans fighting Rachni outside of Shepards squad in ME1.  Both the corporate security and Alliance Marines.  The Rachni are very good ambushers and there first assaults are always described as devastating but if you can survive that strike and know there coming then a it is relatively easy to hold them back.  The marines in particular with only 3-6 soldiers and 1 or 2 turrets are able to decimate the Rachni waves as they attack the outpost, it's the sheer numbers that were wearing them down as exhaustion set in, the same is true for the corp. security on Novaria, not the particular warrior skills of the Rachni.

 

 

Well the Reapers have made some rather odd choices when it came to their ground forces. Why fuse a human onto a Bartarian's arm in order to make a gun, what advantage does that give? Why combine two chemically incompatible species together in order to make a melee tank, when a good portion of the Reaper nanites are dedicated to preventing the Krogan and Turian tissues from rejecting each other? 

 

A lot of their husks seemed to be more about shock factor, than practicality (IMO). If anything, I would wager that the Reapers converted the Rachni into long range artillery because they needed the fire power, but more importantly to also try and demoralize the Queen. I mean they made her give birth and then ripped her children's arms off and turned them into walking gun turrets practically in front of her.

 

 

 

As for the second point, any good defensible position is going to allow a smaller force to hold off against a much larger one whether you are fighting Rachni or Krogan. Also, the Rachni in question were ones that had been separated from the Queen for too long and were driven insane, it stands to reason that they didn't employ very deep tactical thinking when they attacked.

 

Who knows what would have happened if the Queen had been giving them direction and they weren't mentally disturbed by lack of contact with a 'soothing voice' as the Queen puts it? The Marines and corporate security would have had the advantage of a defensible position, but how would they have fared against a foe that could utilize something more than animal instincts?

[bunch1]

As for the second point, any good defensible position is going to allow a smaller force to hold off against a much larger one whether you are fighting Rachni or Krogan. Also, the Rachni in question were ones that had been separated from the Queen for too long and were driven insane, it stands to reason that they didn't employ very deep tactical thinking when they attacked.

 

Who knows what would have happened if the Queen had been giving them direction and they weren't mentally disturbed by lack of contact with a 'soothing voice' as the Queen puts it? The Marines and corporate security would have had the advantage of a defensible position, but how would they have fared against a foe that could utilize something more than animal instincts?

I wasn't refering to tatics just the brute strength of their abilities compared to security forces, armed civilians, and medium infantry with a couple of years of training.  In the Novaria situation they pop up almost directly on top of the security detail and are still guned down before they can close the 10 feet? to their targets.  As for the marines, they do have some cover but many of the Rachni never get within spiting range.  Those comets were more towards previous statements about their natrual advantages in combat over Krogan when a few armed infantry can hold back the same amount of pure Rachni and Krogan are reputed to be better then humans. 

 

I do acknowlege that tactics and position can turn any battle and the Rachni seem to have mastered ambushes till they become instict but unless you feel like admiting that the Krogan are so taleted at battlefeild stratagy that they used an infieror force to take out the Rachni on their own turf dozens of times over it's more proof that the Krogan had the brute strength and numbers to defeat the Rachni at their height.  This has to be factored into the decsion of the in game characters as well, when your preping for a fistfight do you bring along an undefeated champ or someone whoses been knocked out a half a dozen times, sure they get back up for the next fight but that dosen't change the fact that they lost.

 

Conflict in the future is possible granted, but the Rachni do have the advantage of all sharing the 'genetic memory' of their ancestors, it's why the current Queen was able to relate the location of the Mu Relay and why she knew about the 'sour yellow note' that compromised the Rachni during their invasion. It would also stand to reason that any daughters born of the Queen would remember the kindness that Shepard showed in sparing them, and the galaxy's united effort to fight the Reapers. 

 

Now, its true that dissent could arise and conflict could happen, but I would think it far more likely that the Rachni's communal knowledge would tend to alleviate hostilities.

 

 

Compare this to the Krogan who have shown to have quite the selective memory when it comes to galactic events. Wrex, who is either a direct observer of the Krogan Rebellions/Genophage deployment or a son of a person who was, conveniently forgets to mention the atrocities that the Krogan inflicted on the galaxy at large and the Turians in particular. He always holds up Krogan stillborn as a grave injustice, but makes no mention of the 3 garden worlds that his species rendered completely uninhabitable via redirected asteroids; and he is supposed to be one of the more 'understanding' Krogan there is. 

 

 

The Rachni were driven to near extinction, but are still willing to work with Shepard and the rest of the galaxy, nor do they hold the outcome of the Rachni Wars over people's heads. The Krogan have their birth rate reduced, but not eliminated entirely, and their entire society collapses, and they do hold the outcome of the Krogan Rebellions over everyone's heads.Th

The Rachni do seem to be a more peacful option but there is 1 catch to the whole thing.  Trust.  It requires the absolute belief that the queen is telling the truth.  Sure, she seems genuine in giving you the choice to let her die.  But she dosen't really have a choice in the matter either time.  Apealing to Shepards humanity that she is no threat is the only way to save herself and her future children.  There was never any diplomace during the Rachni wars because they killed the council's delegations so we don't know if they are a trustworth species or not.  Atleast with the krogan you know what you get, the devil you know as they say.

[Vortex13]

I wasn't referring to tactics just the brute strength of their abilities compared to security forces, armed civilians, and medium infantry with a couple of years of training.  In the Novaria situation they pop up almost directly on top of the security detail and are still gunned down before they can close the 10 feet to their targets?  As for the marines, they do have some cover but many of the Rachni never get within spiting range.  Those comments were more towards previous statements about their natural advantages in combat over Krogan when a few armed infantry can hold back the same amount of pure Rachni and Krogan are reputed to be better then humans. 

 

Yes its true that the Rachni are gunned down before they can get close, but that is to be expected when you charge in a straight line at an entrenched force with automatic weaponry. The same scenario plays itself out when a Krogan Battlemaster charges Shepard and Co. in Mass Effect 1 as well. There are many times when the player is able to down the Krogan combat veteran before he even gets close to engaging in melee; even on the insanity difficulty. Both species are going to  get shot up if they blindly charge a well equipped squad of trained combat personal, so I am not sure how the Rachni would be inferior in such a situation.

 

At least the Rachni the player encounters in Mass Effect 1 have a reasonable explanation for zerg rushing people, they are newly born soldiers that have been driven mad by lack of contact to their queen. They are operating on base instinct, and like a cornered animal they lash out. What excuse does a hundred(+) year old veteran of combat and master of battlefield strategy and tactics have for sprinting directly towards military personal with long ranged weaponry?

 

I do acknowledge that tactics and position can turn any battle and the Rachni seem to have mastered ambushes till they become instinct but unless you feel like admitting that the Krogan are so talented at battlefield strategy that they used an inferior force to take out the Rachni on their own turf dozens of times over it's more proof that the Krogan had the brute strength and numbers to defeat the Rachni at their height.  This has to be factored into the decision of the in game characters as well, when your preparing for a fistfight do you bring along an undefeated champ or someone who's been knocked out a half a dozen times, sure they get back up for the next fight but that doesn't change the fact that they lost.

 

The Krogan helped turn the tide of the Rachni Wars, but it's not because they overpowered their opponents in open combat; the entirety of the Krogan army didn't face the entirety of the Rachni army and win. The Codex specifically mentions that the Krogan were able to strike the Rachni hives and attack the queens directly, but this seems to be talking more about small surgical strikes vs. open warfare. I am not dismissing the Krogan's accomplishments during the conflict, but a commando insertion behind enemy lines to assassinate a target doesn't automatically make the defending force militarily inadequate.  

 

It is also important to note that there were other races fighting during the Rachni wars than just the Krogan. They might have pulled the trigger, or planted the bombs, but I highly doubt it was them that did the planning. From everything we are shown or read about the Krogan in the setting they don't seem to be ones for subtlety or discretion. More than likely it was the Salarians that drew up the plans, that plotted out the insertion points into the nests, etc. The Krogan's resilience and high birth rate allowed them to weather the hostile nature of the Rachni nests and compensate for a high casualty rates, but no mention is ever made about the keen intellect or battlefield prowess that they brought to the fight. Understand me, I am not calling the Krogan stupid brutes, but the Salarians uplifted them for one specific purpose.

 

 

To use the fighting/boxing metaphor you gave: Its not so much that the Rachni  were beaten single-handedly by the Krogan, the undefeated heavy weight champion of the world, in a knock down drag out fight for supremacy. It was more like the Rachni were holding their own against the tag team of the Asari and Salarians, and the Krogan came in and sucker punched them from behind (IMO).

 

 

The Rachni do seem to be a more peaceful option but there is 1 catch to the whole thing.  Trust.  It requires the absolute belief that the queen is telling the truth.  Sure, she seems genuine in giving you the choice to let her die.  But she doesn't really have a choice in the matter either time.  Appealing to Shepard's humanity that she is no threat is the only way to save herself and her future children.  There was never any diplomacy during the Rachni wars because they killed the council's delegations so we don't know if they are a trustworthy species or not.  At least with the Krogan you know what you get, the devil you know as they say.

 

 

That is true, but their are two points that go contrary to that assumption. 

 

1) If the Queen was just playing Shepard so that she could escape Noveria, then why would she send a messenger to him/her on Illum? Even if we assume that the Rachni was mind controlling the Asari in order to procure supplies why would the Queen give the Asari a message to relay to Shepard and actively seek him/her out, drawing attention to her presence? If her declaration on Peak 15 was just a ploy so that she could saver her own exoskeleton, why would she bother letting Shepard know that she was still around and operating in Citadel space?

 

The Queen could have just as easily fled known space and gone into hiding, leaving Shepard and the galaxy high and dry but she didn't. Even more than that, she specifically sought Shepard out, and let him/her know that she was building an army to help in the upcoming battle with the Reapers.  

 

 

2) When Shepard rescues the Queen in Mass Effect 3 nothing is stopping her from laying low and discreetly trying to fade into the background while the galaxy focuses on the Reaper invasion.  Sure, she promises aid, but its not like Shepard placed her under armed guard when he/she freed the Queen from Reaper captivity. The Rachni could have hijacked a transport, and FTL-ed into uncharted space. There was plenty of confusion and chaos happening all over the Krogan DMZ during that time, a lone freighter going missing would have been chalked up to Reaper attack, or desperate pirates. Even if the allied forces of the galaxy would have known that the Queen just ran away while giving everyone the Rachni equivalent of the middle finger they would have had neither the time or the resources to track her down, nor would they have shifted their attention away from stopping the Reapers. 

 

The fact that the Queen not only stays with the allied forces, increasing the chances that she would be rediscovered by the invading Reapers, but sends aid to the engineers building the Crucible proves that the Rachni are committed to the war effort, even though it means that they will be joining the rest of the galaxy in extinction if they fail to stop them.

[bunch1]

Yes its true that the Rachni are gunned down before they can get close, but that is to be expected when you charge in a straight line at an entrenched force with automatic weaponry. The same scenario plays itself out when a Krogan Battlemaster charges Shepard and Co. in Mass Effect 1 as well. There are many times when the player is able to down the Krogan combat veteran before he even gets close to engaging in melee; even on the insanity difficulty. Both species are going to  get shot up if they blindly charge a well equipped squad of trained combat personal, so I am not sure how the Rachni would be inferior in such a situation.

 

At least the Rachni the player encounters in Mass Effect 1 have a reasonable explanation for zerg rushing people, they are newly born soldiers that have been driven mad by lack of contact to their queen. They are operating on base instinct, and like a cornered animal they lash out. What excuse does a hundred(+) year old veteran of combat and master of battlefield strategy and tactics have for sprinting directly towards military personal with long ranged weaponry?

 

 

The Krogan helped turn the tide of the Rachni Wars, but it's not because they overpowered their opponents in open combat; the entirety of the Krogan army didn't face the entirety of the Rachni army and win. The Codex specifically mentions that the Krogan were able to strike the Rachni hives and attack the queens directly, but this seems to be talking more about small surgical strikes vs. open warfare. I am not dismissing the Krogan's accomplishments during the conflict, but a commando insertion behind enemy lines to assassinate a target doesn't automatically make the defending force militarily inadequate.  

 

It is also important to note that there were other races fighting during the Rachni wars than just the Krogan. They might have pulled the trigger, or planted the bombs, but I highly doubt it was them that did the planning. From everything we are shown or read about the Krogan in the setting they don't seem to be ones for subtlety or discretion. More than likely it was the Salarians that drew up the plans, that plotted out the insertion points into the nests, etc. The Krogan's resilience and high birth rate allowed them to weather the hostile nature of the Rachni nests and compensate for a high casualty rates, but no mention is ever made about the keen intellect or battlefield prowess that they brought to the fight. Understand me, I am not calling the Krogan stupid brutes, but the Salarians uplifted them for one specific purpose.

 

Been awhile since I played but I thought the Krogan were more dangours then the Rachni when charging but that may be my memory playing tricks so I'll call that even to.  But the Krogan do have regenarating health and the ability to fight from prepared cover which I don't belive the Rachni have,they have to be either right on top of the opponet or be exposed with a clear line of sight,  so maybe that will give them and advatage of their own.

 

It's importants to remeber just who was helping the Krogan though.  The Asari are the confirmed commandos of the Mass Effect galaxy.  They excel at small unit fluid tatics but are unable to fight a traditial style war.  This is refrenced many times throughout the series and their is no reason to assume that they couldn't have been equiiped with sealed armor to allow them to survive the climates of the Rachni worlds if all they wanted was small elite teams planting bombs or carving their way to the queens.  The Salarians have a slightly better suited army for traditinal battle but they hate being on the defensive and being forced to react.  They to are described as not being able to withstand the kind of punishment that Turian or Human soldiers can but given were likly the bulk of the Councils ground force until the Krogan came.  Ofcourse they provided the the fleets, training, equipment, and intel but it refrenced that Krogan infantry turned the tides.  It's intresting the paralles that exist between the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions with the Asari launching a number of commando raids at the start of the war to reduce the Krogans ability to wage war and they were still being overun even with the adition of the vaunted Turian army and they were described as using human wave style tatics and relying on their numbers to achive victory.  Thoughtout the series we are told that the Krogan hoard is the most dangours weapon their is to the galaxy, outside of the reapers, and that is why the genophage is so important and ME like's to assign generalities to races so I don't see them haveing used different tatcis in different wars.

 

 

To use the fighting/boxing metaphor you gave: Its not so much that the Rachni  were beaten single-handedly by the Krogan, the undefeated heavy weight champion of the world, in a knock down drag out fight for supremacy. It was more like the Rachni were holding their own against the tag team of the Asari and Salarians, and the Krogan came in and sucker punched them from behind (IMO).

Well, the Krogan were beating the tag team of Asari and Salarians untiltl the Turian sucker punched them.  Then they started beating the tag team of the Asari, Slarian, and Turian until they bribed them to throw the fight.

 

And I wasn't talking from an objective view.  Within universe the Krogan are going to apear to be a better choice because their are very few asari left who fought in the Rachni Wars to tell how good they are but the Krogan Rebellions have more vertrans and the Krogan never let anyone forget that they nearly wiped out all 3 council races on their own.  To Humans and Turians, those pushing for Krogan support, who know how tough the Turian army is that is going to mean more then the Rachni pushing back the Asari and Salarians.

[Vortex13]

Great discussion. 
 

It may be equally fair to say that the Krogan were held hostage until the genophage was dealt with. There are several reasons for this:

-- Their inability to repopulate severely curbed their appetite and ability to engage in all-out war. It was the genophage, after all, that kept them at bay for several centuries.

-- Tuchanka has multiple clans and constant inter-clan rivalries. Curing the genophage made it possible for Wrex/Wreave to unite the clans and provide strong support for the war.

-- If Eve survives, she also serves as an emissary to rally greater clan support.

-- A cured genophage gives the Krogan hope for a very different sort of future for their species - that in itself can be highly motivational and inspire the troops. I mean, really, why would individual soldiers be interested in contributing to the survival of the species that inflicted the genophage on them?

Overall, I question how much support Wrex/Wreave could have mustered without a genophage cure. With it, all of Tuchanka united and rallied to the cause.

 

 

Thanks, I like to have discussions about the lore like this.

 

 

For me, I think that the important factor we're dealing with here was that the Genophage wasn't killing the Krogan, it merely lowered their viable birthrate down to pre-industiral levels, it was the Krogan's fatalism and defeatism that was slowly killing off their species. I'm not saying that the Krogan should have sacked up and dealt with it, but putting a full stop on the war effort in the middle of the Reaper invasion was not the way to go about it (IMO). 

 

 

Even if we excuse the reasons why the Genophage was enacted in the first place; the whole business with the Krogan rendering 3 garden worlds completely uninhabitable, the amount of people they killed simply because they couldn't manage their own worlds or keep it in their respective pants; there is still no reason why the Krogan would stick their heads in the sand and let the galaxy burn around them. Sure the Turaians and Salarians would be wiped out, but so would the Krogan, and extinction is going to result in a heck of a lot more dead Krogan babies that the Genophage ever could. You would think that Wrex, if he survived, would realize the threat that the Reapers pose seeing as how he has had first hand experience in fighting one of them. 

 

Demanding a reversal or reduction of the Genophage after the war for services rendered would be more than reasonable, and would garner much needed goodwill between the Krogan and the rest of the galaxy. Withholding aid, and passively contributing to the deaths of thousands of people because you are dissatisfied with a decision made hundreds of years ago is not a good way to make friends (IMO). Would the Krogan have a difficult time ahead without the Genophage cured? Yes, but it wouldn't be impossible, nor would their numbers be reduced so far as to wipe out their entire species. 

 

 

• Look at the Drell, they lost their homeworld, and have a far less sizable population, but they still contribute to the fight. They are far closer to extinction than the Krogan are, but you don't see them disrupting war efforts because of their unique position.

 

• Even the Batarians, who have been completely devastated by the conflict, their homeworld of Khar'shan the first to fall, and the majority of it's population harvested and/or turned into husks are open to working with the galactic alliance. Yes Balak does sabotage Alliance efforts based on his racism and the perceived slights his species suffered at the hands of humanity, but even he drops everything and completely commits to the fight if Shepard is able to talk him down. A Batarian terrorist is willing to co-operate with the galaxy with no special demands, but the leader of the majority of the Krogan, and a close ally of Shepard, is not.

 

• When the Asari's withholding of the Prothean beacon came to light the galaxy didn't immediately stop fighting the Reapers so that we could reprimand them. Even if the player and the rest of galaxy wanted to see the Asari stand trial for their deception they are smart enough to realize that focusing on that would only distract from the war at hand and lead to more death and destruction. 

 

• The Volus didn't demand a Council seat before they sent their ships and donated their funds to help in the construction of weapons and the Crucible. Even though they had an embassy on the Citadel long before humanity showed up, and they were constantly overlooked and/or mocked they didn't demand restitutions before they sent aid.

[Vortex13]

Been awhile since I played but I thought the Krogan were more dangerous then the Rachni when charging but that may be my memory playing tricks so I'll call that even to.  But the Krogan do have regenarating health and the ability to fight from prepared cover which I don't believe the Rachni have,they have to be either right on top of the opponet or be exposed with a clear line of sight,  so maybe that will give them an advantage of their own.

 

Well, being an Adept in Mass Effect 1 does make any encounter easy mode once you start leveling up your powers. Shepard is capable of lifting a Geth Colossus with his/her powers, a Krogan or Rachni doesn't really stand a chance against the original "Biotic God" 

 

But in all seriousness, I would give the Krogan a slight edge because of their redundant systems, but that's more a matter of surviving and/or recovering from damage, not inflicting it. Plus, we don't know what the Rachni are capable of with technology.

 

The lore says that they are very adept at engineering, and that they were able to reverse-engineer FTL travel off of captured Salarian ships. Just because we have only ever seen them running around with their natural weapons and armor doesn't mean that they are incapable of wielding manufactured goods. Indeed, it would make sense that the Rachni possessed some form of technological prowess during the Rachni Wars, how else would they have been able to engage the Salarian/Asari fleets or enacted successful planetary sieges?

 

It's important to remember just who was helping the Krogan though.  The Asari are the confirmed commandos of the Mass Effect galaxy.  They excel at small unit fluid tactics but are unable to fight a traditional style war.  This is referenced many times throughout the series and their is no reason to assume that they couldn't have been equipped with sealed armor to allow them to survive the climates of the Rachni worlds if all they wanted was small elite teams planting bombs or carving their way to the queens.  The Salarians have a slightly better suited army for traditional battle but they hate being on the defensive and being forced to react.  They too are described as not being able to withstand the kind of punishment that Turian or Human soldiers can but given were likely the bulk of the Councils ground force until the Krogan came.  Of course they provided the the fleets, training, equipment, and intel but it refrenced that Krogan infantry turned the tides.  It's intresting the paralles that exist between the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions with the Asari launching a number of commando raids at the start of the war to reduce the Krogans ability to wage war and they were still being overun even with the adition of the vaunted Turian army and they were described as using human wave style tatics and relying on their numbers to achive victory.  Thoughtout the series we are told that the Krogan hoard is the most dangours weapon their is to the galaxy, outside of the reapers, and that is why the genophage is so important and ME like's to assign generalities to races so I don't see them haveing used different tatcis in different wars.

 

 

Good point on the Asari, I always forget that they are the commando specialists; in my mind I tend to lump the black ops nature of the Slarian STG in with the covert warfare mentioned throughout the lore.

 

 

Anyway, I would say the Krogan were able to take the hits that the Rachni could throw their way where the Asari and Salarians couldn't. A small team of Krogan would undoubtedly be able to take more punishment and survive more grievous wounds than a small team of Asari could.

 

You are right about the use of direct conflicts, the Krogan were able to help stall the Rachni advance, but I tend to view that use more as an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object than a complete route of the insectoid invaders. Most likely the Krogan hardiness and extremely high breeding rate allowed them to keep pace with the Rachni in terms of frontline troops. The codex for the Rachni Wars mentions the use of Krogan infantry, but it says that the thing that won the war was the removal of the queens. 

 

Well, the Krogan were beating the tag team of Asari and Salarians untiltl the Turian sucker punched them.  Then they started beating the tag team of the Asari, Slarian, and Turian until they bribed them to throw the fight.

 

And I wasn't talking from an objective view.  Within universe the Krogan are going to apear to be a better choice because their are very few asari left who fought in the Rachni Wars to tell how good they are but the Krogan Rebellions have more vertrans and the Krogan never let anyone forget that they nearly wiped out all 3 council races on their own.  To Humans and Turians, those pushing for Krogan support, who know how tough the Turian army is that is going to mean more then the Rachni pushing back the Asari and Salarians.

 

 

 

 

This is true, the average person in the galaxy would be well aware of the Krogan's prowess on the battlefield, but it wouldn't take too much to see how useful the Rachni's solders and Brood Warriors would be; even if only as a supplementary force to the Krogan infantry.

 

I mean Hackett was only interested in the Quarians at the start of the Rannoch arc, but he and the other military leaders are quick to realize the potential of the Geth should Shepard side with them or make peace.  Once that conflict is resolved, HQ doesn't arbitrary assign the Geth to Crucible duty as their advantages in conventional warfare are apparent. The same should be seen with the Rachni.

[Pasquale1234]

Thanks, I like to have discussions about the lore like this.
 
 
For me, I think that the important factor we're dealing with here was that the Genophage wasn't killing the Krogan, it merely lowered their viable birthrate down to pre-industiral levels, it was the Krogan's fatalism and defeatism that was slowly killing off their species.

Yes - and it's important to recognize the general state of mind we're dealing with here.
 

Even the Batarians, who have been completely devastated by the conflict, their homeworld of Khar'shan the first to fall, and the majority of it's population harvested and/or turned into husks are open to working with the galactic alliance. Yes Balak does sabotage Alliance efforts based on his racism and the perceived slights his species suffered at the hands of humanity, but even he drops everything and completely commits to the fight if Shepard is able to talk him down. A Batarian terrorist is willing to co-operate with the galaxy with no special demands, but the leader of the majority of the Krogan, and a close ally of Shepard, is not.

The Krogan's situation is very, very different from that of the other species you've named. They're not being asked to support the overall war in a general way; they're being specifically asked to defend the homeworld of the species that inflicted the genophage on them. (Which is how you secure Turian support.)

ME2 showed us that Wrex's status as leader of Clan Urdnot and Clan Urdnot's status as the dominant clan are both tenuous at best. The Krogan do not have a well-oiled, strong, stable, central government. They have clans.

For Wrex to have attempted to command all Krogan to defend the homeworld of the species that inflicted the genophage on them - without a cure - would likely have been political suicide, resulting in more clan infighting and still zero support for the galaxy's war against the reapers. Wrex needed a genophage cure to unite the clans and solidify support for his leadership - and he had intel suggesting it was possible.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to suggest here is that: just as Victus needed Krogan boots on Palaven to commit Turian support to Shepard, Wrex needed a genophage cure.

[bunch1]

This is true, the average person in the galaxy would be well aware of the Krogan's prowess on the battlefield, but it wouldn't take too much to see how useful the Rachni's solders and Brood Warriors would be; even if only as a supplementary force to the Krogan infantry.

 

I mean Hackett was only interested in the Quarians at the start of the Rannoch arc, but he and the other military leaders are quick to realize the potential of the Geth should Shepard side with them or make peace.  Once that conflict is resolved, HQ doesn't arbitrary assign the Geth to Crucible duty as their advantages in conventional warfare are apparent. The same should be seen with the Rachni.

By the time the queen joins the alliance she is back to square 1 with no children to contribuite.  I imagine that pumping out smaller workers to aid the crucible was quicker and easier then warriors and it will be months or years before they can contribuite in any meaningful way, unlike the Krogan who can add millions if not billions of soldiers from day 1.  Given the fact that Earth and Palaven have been under Reaper control for the better part of a year already I imagne Hackett and the Primarch were well aware time was running out and would lean towards the Krogan because waiting for enough Rachni would mean giving up on hundreds or millions if not billions of humans on Earth and Turians on Palaven.  The Rachni and Krogan may be about equal overall with the Rachni a more wise choice but with time on the line I'm not suprised the Krogan are still the first choice.  The Geth are accepted so quickly because they have a massive army and fleet to add to the fight which the Rachni simply don't have.

[Vortex13]

By the time the queen joins the alliance she is back to square 1 with no children to contribuite.  I imagine that pumping out smaller workers to aid the crucible was quicker and easier then warriors and it will be months or years before they can contribuite in any meaningful way, unlike the Krogan who can add millions if not billions of soldiers from day 1.  Given the fact that Earth and Palaven have been under Reaper control for the better part of a year already I imagne Hackett and the Primarch were well aware time was running out and would lean towards the Krogan because waiting for enough Rachni would mean giving up on hundreds or millions if not billions of humans on Earth and Turians on Palaven.  The Rachni and Krogan may be about equal overall with the Rachni a more wise choice but with time on the line I'm not suprised the Krogan are still the first choice.  The Geth are accepted so quickly because they have a massive army and fleet to add to the fight which the Rachni simply don't have.

 

 

 

I don't think the war had been going on that long. I might be wrong here, but I believe that the entire duration of the events in ME 3 only took place over a few months, probably no more than 4 or 5. Then again, the pacing of the narrative is rather inconsistent so I might be off here.

 

 

Even starting from scratch I still think the Queen could have contributed to the fight, but ultimately you are right in that the Krogan have a massive contingent of troops ready to go at a moment's notice. It does make sense that the characters would want to go with the larger army, but I can't help but wonder if the Rachni would have been the better choice if writer fiat hadn't killed off her entire hive off camera. 

 

 

Part of me wonders if that particular turn of events happened in order to keep the story more 'human focused'. The Krogan and their plight with the Genophage was obviously designed to tug at the heartstrings, and garner sympathy from the player. Also the game seemed to be rather keen on having Shepard swooping into fix the galaxy's issues; like curing the Genophage, and single handedly bringing an end to a thousand years of hostility between the Krogan and Turians. I guess it wouldn't have been "dramatic" enough if the 'alien' aliens showed up with an army that they promised without any need for Shepard's intervention. 

 

But forgive me, I'm ranting.

[Vortex13]

Yes - and it's important to recognize the general state of mind we're dealing with here.
 

The Krogan's situation is very, very different from that of the other species you've named. They're not being asked to support the overall war in a general way; they're being specifically asked to defend the homeworld of the species that inflicted the genophage on them. (Which is how you secure Turian support.)

ME2 showed us that Wrex's status as leader of Clan Urdnot and Clan Urdnot's status as the dominant clan are both tenuous at best. The Krogan do not have a well-oiled, strong, stable, central government. They have clans.

For Wrex to have attempted to command all Krogan to defend the homeworld of the species that inflicted the genophage on them - without a cure - would likely have been political suicide, resulting in more clan infighting and still zero support for the galaxy's war against the reapers. Wrex needed a genophage cure to unite the clans and solidify support for his leadership - and he had intel suggesting it was possible.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to suggest here is that: just as Victus needed Krogan boots on Palaven to commit Turian support to Shepard, Wrex needed a genophage cure.

 

 

 

I am willing to agree that a rallying call is what the Krogan needed. Though anyone with half a brain should realize that not working together against the Reapers was suicide; then again the idiot ball was thrown around quite a lot in ME 2 & 3 so I guess I can't single out the Krogan for it. 

 

 

Giving the other clans a reason to unite does make sense, but what I find pretty telling about the Krogan leadership is how quickly Wrex is willing to abandon the rest of the galaxy if the cure is sabotaged. Yes, this is using meta knowledge, and yes I am aware that Wrex had just lost a son, but calling off Krogan support, and (pretty much) declaring war on the human alliance is beyond stupid when the Reapers are concerned. 

 

Wrex and the Salarian Dalatrass are the same when it comes to not getting what they want. Rather than use the united clans to help push back the Reapers, and advocate for an actual cure once the war is over, Wrex would rather lead his people to extinction by leaving the galactic alliance as well as attacking human forces. The Rachni queen is willing to accept the cold calculus of war if Shepard deems her too great a risk to let live, but the Krogan aren't even willing to go with a necessary (to some players) deception in order to garner as much support as possible, it's not like the Genophage cure is going to make a difference in the amount of forces the Krogan can bring to the fight in any reasonable time frame. 

[bunch1]

I don't think the war had been going on that long. I might be wrong here, but I believe that the entire duration of the events in ME 3 only took place over a few months, probably no more than 4 or 5. Then again, the pacing of the narrative is rather inconsistent so I might be off here.

Better part of a year just means 6+ months and with the number of side missions and main mission along with travel time and down time I would'nt be suprised if it did take a year.  Dragon Age didn't have that many missions but I'm pretty sure the devs said it takes place over a year so it would make sense.

 

I am willing to agree that a rallying call is what the Krogan needed. Though anyone with half a brain should realize that not working together against the Reapers was suicide; then again the idiot ball was thrown around quite a lot in ME 2 & 3 so I guess I can't single out the Krogan for it. 

 

 

Giving the other clans a reason to unite does make sense, but what I find pretty telling about the Krogan leadership is how quickly Wrex is willing to abandon the rest of the galaxy if the cure is sabotaged. Yes, this is using meta knowledge, and yes I am aware that Wrex had just lost a son, but calling off Krogan support, and (pretty much) declaring war on the human alliance is beyond stupid when the Reapers are concerned. 

 

Wrex and the Salarian Dalatrass are the same when it comes to not getting what they want. Rather than use the united clans to help push back the Reapers, and advocate for an actual cure once the war is over, Wrex would rather lead his people to extinction by leaving the galactic alliance as well as attacking human forces. The Rachni queen is willing to accept the cold calculus of war if Shepard deems her too great a risk to let live, but the Krogan aren't even willing to go with a necessary (to some players) deception in order to garner as much support as possible, it's not like the Genophage cure is going to make a difference in the amount of forces the Krogan can bring to the fight in any reasonable time frame. 

In ME 3 it's every race for themselves at the start.  Even the council races tell you flat out they won't help Earth or any of the associate races they are supposed to protect and Udia says himself that the Alliance would do the same if they weren't attacked themselves.  Even as the game goes on the Salarians who have the 2ed-3rd largest fleet in citidel space and the 2ed largest army(they and the Asari are the most wide spread and the Salarians have an actual standing army while the humans who have a much smaller population and the lowest % of soldiers) refuse to help at all.  You get 1 fleet for saving the counciler twice and 1 more as a bribe to sabatoge the cure which combined don't even add up to clan Urdnot let alone the other clans and Krogan who join up, tack on a couple of rouge STG units and thats all they got despite being the only major race left alone in the war.  Honestly I find the Salarians refusal to get involved far more egregious then the Krogan demanding a cure before flinging themselves at the Reapers.

 

As for the Krogans reasons for holding out you do have to realise this is the only leverage they will ever get and since they belive their race is dying slowly they see little diference between the Reapers and the genophage and if their going to die either way then why should they do it helping those that have put the plague on them.  Sure, we know it's not a starility plague but they don't know that and it's driven many/most males to wander as mercs and pirates while femals kill themselves or give up on children after seeing to many of their children stillborn, the fact that if they try a few hundred times they might have a sucsefull clutch is not known and likly wouldn't prevent all the suicides and depression that the Krogan have.  The council views them as a threat to stability and that isn't going to change anytime soon.  Wrex is the most civil Krogan leader you could ask for(females don't lead male, warrior, clans) and even he has open contempt for the council.  If something happens to him then almost all the rest of the Krogan will return to their Turian and Salarian hating ways.  If the Krogan simply joined up at the start they would suffer massive losses from their warrior cast with absolutly no garuntee that the Salarians who aren't helping the alliance will give them the cure when all is said and done and none of the other races would push the issue because their would be nothing the Krogan could do in retrabution. 

 

Sure, I think they should join up, but so should the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Drell, Hanar, Volus, Geth, Quarians, Batarians and every other race in the galaxy but until they are either assured of their own saftey or forced to fight the Reapers themselves they all just want to hunker down and stay out of the fight.

[Pasquale1234]

I am willing to agree that a rallying call is what the Krogan needed. Though anyone with half a brain should realize that not working together against the Reapers was suicide; then again the idiot ball was thrown around quite a lot in ME 2 & 3 so I guess I can't single out the Krogan for it. 

Giving the other clans a reason to unite does make sense, but what I find pretty telling about the Krogan leadership is how quickly Wrex is willing to abandon the rest of the galaxy if the cure is sabotaged. Yes, this is using meta knowledge, and yes I am aware that Wrex had just lost a son, but calling off Krogan support, and (pretty much) declaring war on the human alliance is beyond stupid when the Reapers are concerned.

I have to wonder whether the Krogan ever really felt threatened by the reapers. From what we were shown, Tuchanka had some reaper activity, though not nearly as much as other homeworlds. Other species fight when the situation warrants it, Krogan fight because their 'blood and bone compels them to', and they revel in it. Reapers on Tuchanka? Something besides each other to fight? It's party time!

Plus - Kalros. 
 

Wrex and the Salarian Dalatrass are the same when it comes to not getting what they want.

I thought you had accepted my point about Wrex needing the cure to solidify support...?

The Dalatrass has resources available for deployment - she just chooses to withhold them.
 

Rather than use the united clans to help push back the Reapers, and advocate for an actual cure once the war is over, Wrex would rather lead his people to extinction by leaving the galactic alliance as well as attacking human forces.

Well - that's the downside of that (in)famous Krogan blood rage.

At that point, they'd have no reason to believe a genophage cure would ever be forthcoming. Shepard, a trusted friend, betrayed them, and they had to believe that every other Council species was against them, wanting only to use them to fight their wars - as they did with the Rachni so long ago. Can you really blame them for refusing to be used again?

The only thing the Krogan really had to offer was ground troops. They had no fleets to speak of, no scientists, engineers, or architects to help assemble the Crucible, no other resources to contribute. They may as well bring those troops home to defend Tuchanka.

I've not actually seen the sabotage scenario in-game, so am wondering what actually happens to the Krogan after learning of the betrayal. I would expect Wrex would be unceremoniously removed from his leadership role, and the entire Krogan political / clan structure fall into disarray. They had trusted Wrex because Wrex had (foolishly, it turns out) trusted Shepard.
 

The Rachni queen is willing to accept the cold calculus of war if Shepard deems her too great a risk to let live, but the Krogan aren't even willing to go with a necessary (to some players) deception in order to garner as much support as possible, it's not like the Genophage cure is going to make a difference in the amount of forces the Krogan can bring to the fight in any reasonable time frame.

The Rachni queen doesn't have any other viable options.

With the genophage in place, perhaps the Krogan feel that the Council species favor their extinction. They haven't had the in-depth conversations with Mordin, Wiks, etc., that Shepard and the player have had. At that point, they likely feel that it's them versus the rest of the galaxy, anyway.

[Vortex13]

I have to wonder whether the Krogan ever really felt threatened by the reapers. From what we were shown, Tuchanka had some reaper activity, though not nearly as much as other homeworlds. Other species fight when the situation warrants it, Krogan fight because their 'blood and bone compels them to', and they revel in it. Reapers on Tuchanka? Something besides each other to fight? It's party time!

Plus - Kalros. 
 

I thought you had accepted my point about Wrex needing the cure to solidify support...?

The Dalatrass has resources available for deployment - she just chooses to withhold them.
 

Well - that's the downside of that (in)famous Krogan blood rage.

At that point, they'd have no reason to believe a genophage cure would ever be forthcoming. Shepard, a trusted friend, betrayed them, and they had to believe that every other Council species was against them, wanting only to use them to fight their wars - as they did with the Rachni so long ago. Can you really blame them for refusing to be used again?

The only thing the Krogan really had to offer was ground troops. They had no fleets to speak of, no scientists, engineers, or architects to help assemble the Crucible, no other resources to contribute. They may as well bring those troops home to defend Tuchanka.

I've not actually seen the sabotage scenario in-game, so am wondering what actually happens to the Krogan after learning of the betrayal. I would expect Wrex would be unceremoniously removed from his leadership role, and the entire Krogan political / clan structure fall into disarray. They had trusted Wrex because Wrex had (foolishly, it turns out) trusted Shepard.
 

The Rachni queen doesn't have any other viable options.

With the genophage in place, perhaps the Krogan feel that the Council species favor their extinction. They haven't had the in-depth conversations with Mordin, Wiks, etc., that Shepard and the player have had. At that point, they likely feel that it's them versus the rest of the galaxy, anyway.

 

You make very good points, and I agree with the reasoning behind all the points you mentioned. I admit to being slightly biased in this area, its just I have an issue with how the Krogan and the Genophage were handled in Mass Effect 3 compared to how they were treated in the previous games and the lore.  

 

 

The formally morally grey issue over the Genophage was made black and white, the agenda of the writing became about making the Krogan innocent prisoners of the greatest evil of the galaxy; short of the Reapers anyway. The reasons why the Genophage was enacted, all of the atrocities enacted by the Krogan during their rebellion was ignored or downplayed in favor of making the Salarians, and the Turians to a lesser extent, look like short sighted fear mongers.

 

Instead of a neutral stance, the narrative clearly painted those who opposed the cure as racist villains or evil psychopaths; even ultra-Renegade Shepard acts disgusted when sabotaging and discussing the sabotage of the cure. Instead of grounded facts, and logical opinions about why the cure might not be a good idea given the circumstances, or even giving reasons why its deployment was justified, the proponents devolved into one dimensional rantings of: "The Krogan aren't ready for the cure!"

 

The player can't even call out Wrex on his obviously biased remarks about the outcome of the rebellions, or in how the Krogan are in no way blameless victims in this whole affair. Shepard gets to reprimand the Salarians (the Dalatrass especially) many, many times about the development of the Genophage, their short sightedness, their playing god with other species, their racism, etc. but he/she can never bring anything similar up with Wrex.

 

Essentially, the Krogan are a brutal, bloodthirsty species except when the story needs you to feel sorry for them. Forget the females Warlords that participated in some of the most bloody engagements of the rebellions, all the women are wise sages that work for peace. Etc. 

 

 

[Pasquale1234]

Instead of a neutral stance, the narrative clearly painted those who opposed the cure as racist villains or evil psychopaths; even ultra-Renegade Shepard acts disgusted when sabotaging and discussing the sabotage of the cure. Instead of grounded facts, and logical opinions about why the cure might not be a good idea given the circumstances, or even giving reasons why its deployment was justified, the proponents devolved into one dimensional rantings of: "The Krogan aren't ready for the cure!"

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do think you have a point about what Shepard is allowed to express. It can't be easy to write dialogue for players ranging from newcomers who have never read a codex to those who have consumed and analyzed every bit of history and world lore available up to that point.
 

The player can't even call out Wrex on his obviously biased remarks about the outcome of the rebellions, or in how the Krogan are in no way blameless victims in this whole affair. Shepard gets to reprimand the Salarians (the Dalatrass especially) many, many times about the development of the Genophage, their short sightedness, their playing god with other species, their racism, etc. but he/she can never bring anything similar up with Wrex.

From the wiki:
710 CE

Realizing that the krogan will never give in as long as they can replenish their fighters, the turians unleash a salarian-engineered bio-weapon known as the genophage on the krogan. The krogan population starts its decline.

Shepard can call out the Salarians for things they are doing right here, right now.

The genophage has been in place for nearly 1,500 years. The Krogan individuals responsible for the Rebellions are long gone. Assuming Wrex is ~ 700, the genophage had been in place ~ 800 years before Wrex was born. There's not much point in dressing someone down for the actions of their ancestors.

It would have been nice to have been able to discuss Shepard's misgivings about the situation and cure with Wrex, but I have to wonder how many different versions of it the writers might have needed to provide in order to provide reasonable coverage for the various player opinions out there. I think sometimes the writers omit things because some issues are too complex and engender too many different responses to reasonably cover. It's a lot easier to 'correct' sins of omission with headcanon than sins of commission.

But, yeah, that's one of the problems you introduce when you delve that deeply into cinematic storytelling. The deeper you go, the more the character becomes the writer's rather than the player's.

Essentially, the Krogan are a brutal, bloodthirsty species except when the story needs you to feel sorry for them. Forget the females Warlords that participated in some of the most bloody engagements of the rebellions, all the women are wise sages that work for peace. Etc. 

I've always thought that Eve / Bakura is expressing the results of 1,500 years of living under the genophage. I mean, they're wearing burquas - hardly the uniform of a warrior princess.

This is actually one of the more intriguing stories imho. I'd really like to know what happens with Krogan development and culture over the next couple hundred years w/ the genophage cured and Wrex & Bakura at the helm. Will they retain the lessons of the genophage, resort to pre-genophage culture, or... ?

[Vortex13]

 From the wiki:
710 CE

Realizing that the krogan will never give in as long as they can replenish their fighters, the turians unleash a salarian-engineered bio-weapon known as the genophage on the krogan. The krogan population starts its decline.

Shepard can call out the Salarians for things they are doing right here, right now.

The genophage has been in place for nearly 1,500 years. The Krogan individuals responsible for the Rebellions are long gone. Assuming Wrex is ~ 700, the genophage had been in place ~ 800 years before Wrex was born. There's not much point in dressing someone down for the actions of their ancestors.

 

 

Which is total hypocrisy when Wrex did the same thing to the Rachni Queen in Mass Effect 1.

 

 

Low-res textures aside  , it's quite telling how Wrex is willing to commit genocide of an entire species based on a war over 2,000 years ago.

 

He would like nothing more than to give the Queen an acid bath, telling Shepard how monstrous the Rachni are, but the moment Garus starts arguing against that sentiment, using the Krogan as an example, Wrex gets all defensive. The exact same logic could be used as justification for the Genophage (actually, the Genophage could be seen as a lesser evil since the galaxy didn't completely wipe out the Krogan) but Wrex refuses to acknowledge it.

 

He has never even seen a Rachni, and I would doubt that even his father or grandfather saw one either, but here he is passing judgment over a species based on the actions of their ancestors.