74 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Which is total hypocrisy when Wrex did the same thing to the Rachni Queen in Mass Effect 1.

 

[snip]

 

Low-res textures aside  , it's quite telling how Wrex is willing to commit genocide of an entire species based on a war over 2,000 years ago.

 

He would like nothing more than to give the Queen an acid bath, telling Shepard how monstrous the Rachni are, but the moment Garus starts arguing against that sentiment, using the Krogan as an example, Wrex gets all defensive. The exact same logic could be used as justification for the Genophage (actually, the Genophage could be seen as a lesser evil since the galaxy didn't completely wipe out the Krogan) but Wrex refuses to acknowledge it.

 

He has never even seen a Rachni, and I would doubt that even his father or grandfather saw one either, but here he is passing judgment over a species based on the actions of their ancestors. 

 

The whole sequence is kind of inconsistent, since he doesn't know what they are at first, then he does later. In any case, I think it's a safe assumption that the rachni are a huge part of krogan culture, and that they're basically taught to despise them, since their current state is the result of nurturing their most warlike tendencies, specifically to wipe them out. ME1 Wrex never really expressed any concern about the welfare of any species beyond his own.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Low-res textures aside  , it's quite telling how Wrex is willing to commit genocide of an entire species based on a war over 2,000 years ago.

 

He would like nothing more than to give the Queen an acid bath, telling Shepard how monstrous the Rachni are, but the moment Garus starts arguing against that sentiment, using the Krogan as an example, Wrex gets all defensive. The exact same logic could be used as justification for the Genophage (actually, the Genophage could be seen as a lesser evil since the galaxy didn't completely wipe out the Krogan) but Wrex refuses to acknowledge it.

 

He has never even seen a Rachni, and I would doubt that even his father or grandfather saw one either, but here he is passing judgment over a species based on the actions of their ancestors. 

 

Yeah, and he sings the same tune in ME3 for that matter while pushing for his own species' redemption.

[ZipZap2000]

Each faction is held back by the need for the story to progress, rather than having a situation evolve as it would IRL. But just comparing the two the Rachni would seem the obvious choice, incredibly resistant to the elements, each unit capable of deploying chemical attacks, a diverse group capable of handling almost any situation, like ants they swarm and can be replaced quicker than they can be killed. But unfortunately they are up against the Krogan who's own capacity for killing sh*t is only surpassed by the Reapers. That is what gives the Krogan their edge they can kill even the Rachni beyond their ability to reproduce and where they can't, they don't hesitate to deploy WMD's to do it for them. In terms of rebuilding, a Krogan lives 1000 years cure the Genophage and teach a man to fish or in this case construction work.  But the Rachni trump them in every way on this, they don't just build they build fast. 

 

In the end it would depend what your own priorities were. 

[Daemul]

I've not actually seen the sabotage scenario in-game, so am wondering what actually happens to the Krogan after learning of the betrayal. I would expect Wrex would be unceremoniously removed from his leadership role, and the entire Krogan political / clan structure fall into disarray. They had trusted Wrex because Wrex had (foolishly, it turns out) trusted Shepard.

Eh, not exactly. After you kill Wrex, Clan Urdnot withdraws itself from the war expecting the other Clans to follow their lead, but Eve goes against them and rallies the rest of the Krogan Clans to her side and gets them to remain as part of the war effort.

Based Eve, she should have been the one handling the negotiations from the get go. We would have come to a compromise with the genophage cure and she wouldn't have held the galaxy to ransom in such a short sighted manner like the Chuckle Brothers did.

Ah well, what can you do, Bioware want every leader we deal with to be a dumba** for some reason.

[Pasquale1234]

Which is total hypocrisy when Wrex did the same thing to the Rachni Queen in Mass Effect 1.

So it's hypocrisy to point out the futility of dressing someone down for the actions of their ancestors?

Wow. The things I learn on the internets.

[KaiserShep]

Eh, not exactly. After you kill Wrex, Clan Urdnot withdraws itself from the war expecting the other Clans to follow their lead, but Eve goes against them and rallies the rest of the Krogan Clans to her side and gets them to remain as part of the war effort.

Based Eve, she should have been the one handling the negotiations from the get go. We would have come to a compromise with the genophage cure and she wouldn't have held the galaxy to ransom in such a short sighted manner like the Chuckle Brothers did.

Ah well, what can you do, Bioware want every leader we deal with to be a dumba** for some reason.

 

Trouble is, there's not much point of a compromise if you believe that your species can't handle both the genophage and the reaper war simultaneously. But more importantly than that, the reaper war is the perfect opportunity to strong-arm people into agreeing to implement it, because once the war is over, there's absolutely nothing to stop the rest of the galactic community from simply saying "Well it's been real. Have fun with the genophage forever!"

 

We can be certain though that this is also Mordin/Padok's fault, because Wrex/Wreav's plan to force this deal about the cure stems from their leaking information about the females held at the STG base. If the Urdnot clan leader just hatched this scheme with absolutely no basis whatsoever, then that would be a different story, since he'd be asking to just pull a cure out of their collective asses.

[Farangbaa]

I see the Rachni as the only force capable of stopping new Krogan Rebellions if they ever start. Wrex and Eve are not immortal, losing them might throw the krogan back into their violent ways and with genophage cured they would be too much for the galaxy to bear. That's why I always save the Rachni when I cure the genophage. They live on toxic worlds, krogan would not compete for those.

They are immortal. There's not a single Krogan that died of old age. Okeer was over a millenium old and showed not a single sign of senescence.

And provided the Krogan develop birth control (why they haven't is absolutely beyond me..), I don't really see a new Krogan rebellion happening.

Just contain them to their planet after the Reapers. Forcefully if need be. Let them solve their nature, or let nature solve them.

Remember that they do not have any means of transportation. Let the Salarians spy their planet constantly, bomb any ship factory and let the Krogan solve their issues.

[Vortex13]

So it's hypocrisy to point out the futility of dressing someone down for the actions of their ancestors?

Wow. The things I learn on the internets.

 

 

I wasn't directing that at you, sorry if it came across that way. 

 

 

 

I was referring to Wrex as a character; he wants everyone to not judge the Krogan based on their actions from the Krogan Rebellions, but he is more than willing to judge the Rachni for what happened during the Rachni Wars.

 

More than that, he says the Salarians and Turaians were wrong about the Genophage, but it never crosses his mind to see the wrongs the Krogan did to warrant the need for it's deployment. He wants to hold everyone else accountable for his species' problems, but won't take any responsibility for the issues the Krogan caused.

 

His double standards, and hypocrisy are pretty obvious, and as a player I have to wonder why I should give the Krogan sympathy if they aren't willing to see reason or own up to their mistakes and if they won't give other species the same courtesy that they are asking the galaxy to give them. 

[Vortex13]

Eh, not exactly. After you kill Wrex, Clan Urdnot withdraws itself from the war expecting the other Clans to follow their lead, but Eve goes against them and rallies the rest of the Krogan Clans to her side and gets them to remain as part of the war effort.

Based Eve, she should have been the one handling the negotiations from the get go. We would have come to a compromise with the genophage cure and she wouldn't have held the galaxy to ransom in such a short sighted manner like the Chuckle Brothers did.

Ah well, what can you do, Bioware want every leader we deal with to be a dumba** for some reason.

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

Even though she was used at times by the narrative to try and drum up sympathy for the their plight, Eve was actually the most level headed Krogan we encounter during Mass Effect 3. The fact that she keeps the alliance together even after the Genophage is sabotaged, rather than storm off and have a pity party like Clan Urdnot, goes to show how much more capable she is as a leader (IMO). 

[Vortex13]

The whole sequence is kind of inconsistent, since he doesn't know what they are at first, then he does later. In any case, I think it's a safe assumption that the rachni are a huge part of krogan culture, and that they're basically taught to despise them, since their current state is the result of nurturing their most warlike tendencies, specifically to wipe them out. ME1 Wrex never really expressed any concern about the welfare of any species beyond his own.

 

 

Which doesn't speak very well of Krogan culture. If they are taught to despise the Rachni for what they did, then it would go without saying that Krogan are taught to hate the Turians and Salarians just as much, if not more, for their parts in the Genophage. Even if one doesn't consider the deployment justified, the fact that most Krogan the player meets, Wrex included, are quite up front about the fact that they would kill Turians and Salarians for no other reason than for 'revenge' does make it hard for the rest of the galaxy to want to help them. 

 

 

People say that the need to demand the cure during Mass Effect 3 was warranted, since the galaxy wouldn't help them otherwise, but I would have to wonder that if the Krogan hadn't been so hostile to the other species for the past 1,500 years if the Genophage wouldn't have already been cured. I mean you are far more likely to get someone to aid you if you are not constantly saying how you want to kill them and their families. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Neither the rachni nor the krogan can be trusted and for various reasons but they're both strong and should both be thrown at the Reapers.

So many great points have been made in this thread but neither one beats out the other in my eyes. Finding some way to exterminate both of them and get away with it would be ideal IMO.

This coming from a guy who is vehemently pro mage.

[Vortex13]

Neither the rachni nor the krogan can be trusted and for various reasons but they're both strong and should both be thrown at the Reapers.

So many great points have been made in this thread but neither one beats out the other in my eyes. Finding some way to exterminate both of them and get away with it would be ideal IMO.

This coming from a guy who is vehemently pro mage.

 

 

Fair enough, though I am curious as to what makes them untrustworthy in your eyes?

 

 

 

 

Truth be told I would never want to kill off any species in the setting. Even though I don't like the narrative's take on the Krogan in Mass Effect 3, my canon Shepard would never choose to kill off anyone.

 

The main reason for this, is because I hate the loss of variety and flavor that accompanies the removal of a species from the universe. This is especially true for the more 'alien' aliens, since without them Mass Effect becomes rather dull and 'normal' (IMO). I don't want to see it become another Star Wars or Star Trek, where everyone is (essentially) just various shades of humanity and the only real difference is in what things are glued onto the actors' heads. 

 

Aliens like the Rachni, the Thorian, the (ME 2) Geth, etc. all offered a nice breather from your standard re-skinned human that most main stream sci-fi settings wind up with. They had motives, and perspectives that were different (alien), compared to the 'human' motivations and perspectives of the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogan, Humans, Drell, etc. 

[Display Name Owner]

As someone who (without metagaming) thinks destroying the Queen is the more sensible option, I do think it would be interesting to see how the galaxy would manage a species who is so different from every other one becoming part of society. Honestly they might be a less disruptive presence than the Krogan.

[Daemul]

We can be certain though that this is also Mordin/Padok's fault, because Wrex/Wreav's plan to force this deal about the cure stems from their leaking information about the females held at the STG base. If the Urdnot clan leader just hatched this scheme with absolutely no basis whatsoever, then that would be a different story, since he'd be asking to just pull a cure out of their collective asses.

 

This is what confounds me the most about the entire thing, what on earth possessed Padok Wiks and Mordin of all people to leak the the information about the females to Urdnot? Why the hell did they think that was a good idea? Also, isn't this treason? There was no need for them to leak it at all, other than "muh conscious!!!!", which isn't a logical position at all, it only just unnecessarily made already complicated negotiations more complicated.

 

I swear to god, every character in this series is a dumba**. 

[Pasquale1234]

I wasn't directing that at you, sorry if it came across that way.

Good to know.
 

I was referring to Wrex as a character; he wants everyone to not judge the Krogan based on their actions from the Krogan Rebellions, but he is more than willing to judge the Rachni for what happened during the Rachni Wars.
 
More than that, he says the Salarians and Turaians were wrong about the Genophage, but it never crosses his mind to see the wrongs the Krogan did to warrant the need for it's deployment. He wants to hold everyone else accountable for his species' problems, but won't take any responsibility for the issues the Krogan caused.
 
His double standards, and hypocrisy are pretty obvious, and as a player I have to wonder why I should give the Krogan sympathy if they aren't willing to see reason or own up to their mistakes and if they won't give other species the same courtesy that they are asking the galaxy to give them.

I'm not sure that Wrex's behavior - at least the scenes I've seen (and remember - lol) - constitute hypocrisy. The word implies some claim of moral superiority, which I don't remember Wrex ever making.

Double standards? Maybe. It would have been nice to have had the opportunity to discuss the Krogan Rebellions with him at some point in the trilogy. I'd be interested to know what he might have to say about it. Offhand, I don't remember him ever opining about it, so I'm not inclined to make any assumptions about that.

[Vortex13]

Good to know.
 

I'm not sure that Wrex's behavior - at least the scenes I've seen (and remember - lol) - constitute hypocrisy. The word implies some claim of moral superiority, which I don't remember Wrex ever making.

Double standards? Maybe. It would have been nice to have had the opportunity to discuss the Krogan Rebellions with him at some point in the trilogy. I'd be interested to know what he might have to say about it. Offhand, I don't remember him ever opining about it, so I'm not inclined to make any assumptions about that.

 

 

I would have love to confront him about it as well since Wrex does have a rather selective memory when it comes to the history of galactic events. While on Virmire when Shepard has to talk him down or kill him he makes a rather 'skewed' statement when choosing the paragon option:

 

 

Wrex: "We were tools for the Council once, and they thanked us for wiping out the Rachni by neutering us all."

 

 

That is not why the Genophage was deployed Wrex and you know it. 

[Vortex13]

This is what confounds me the most about the entire thing, what on earth possessed Padok Wiks and Mordin of all people to leak the the information about the females to Urdnot? Why the hell did they think that was a good idea? Also, isn't this treason? There was no need for them to leak it at all, other than "muh conscious!!!!", which isn't a logical position at all, it only just unnecessarily made already complicated negotiations more complicated.

 

I swear to god, every character in this series is a dumba**. 

 

 

 

Appart from the narrative urgency to play up the drama of the Genophage, and garner more sympathy for curing it, there was no reason to leak that information. Even if Mordin had a change of heart he would surely realize that dropping that bomb shell would only drag out negations and bring the war effort to a screeching halt. He is very lucky that his actions didn't spark hostilities between the Krogan and the Salarians right there.

 

 

The writers wanted us to applause his whistle blowing, but not only did it place unnecessary strain on an already unstable negotiation, but it also could very well have resulted in Wrex's death. I mean do you really think that a heavily armed individual forcing their way into a highly sensitive government facility wouldn't have resulted in him being shot the moment his feet hit the ground? 

 

 

The Dalatrass was an idiot for withholding aid out of spite, but Mordin wasn't much better when he almost derailed any form of civil negotiation out of his sympathies for the Krogan. His information leak could have also been the reason why Cerberus knew about Eve and the other females and all the ensuing chaos that they caused; their ability to strike at the most secure home world in the galaxy is something else entirely.  

[DeinonSlayer]

I don't think the Council's extermination of the Rachni in the first war was because they were "scary space bugs." Heck, the Asari and the Salarians were the only Council races back then. I'm not big on the Council, but I think the big thing here wasn't what they looked like so much as that there was absolutely no communication (or even possibility of communication) with the Rachni. It's akin to the Formics in Ender's Game. Why would a telepathic species develop writing, or radio, or speech, or any of the means of communication we depend on? How do you begin to communicate, especially when they attack on sight without provocation? At least the Geth were capable of communicating, they just chose not to. The Rachni, by all accounts, lashed out until there was nothing left of them but an egg on a derelict freighter.

[Vortex13]

I don't think the Council's extermination of the Rachni in the first war was because they were "scary space bugs." Heck, the Asari and the Salarians were the only Council races back then. I'm not big on the Council, but I think the big thing here wasn't what they looked like so much as that there was absolutely no communication (or even possibility of communication) with the Rachni. It's akin to the Formics in Ender's Game. Why would a telepathic species develop writing, or radio, or speech, or any of the means of communication we depend on? How do you begin to communicate, especially when they attack on sight without provocation? At least the Geth were capable of communicating, they just chose not to. The Rachni, by all accounts, lashed out until there was nothing left of them but an egg on a derelict freighter.

 

 

Granted the Rachni are fairly alien compared to the rest of the galaxy, but killing them to the last egg (as far as everyone knew) seemed to be a little excessive. Why wouldn't they just push them back to their home world and lock them there, blowing any attempts at leaving atmosphere out of the sky? The Krogan easily had enough ships to patrol Suren and keep the Rachni in check by the end of the war, so why wouldn't they just quarantine the planet? The Council forced the Krogan back to Tuchanka without wiping them out, even though they (arguably) posed a greater threat than the Rachni did, it just seems out of character for the Asari and Slarians to okay the complete annihilation of an obviously intelligent species. 

 

 

Then again, maybe it was the Krogans operating against orders that resulted in the Rachni's (supposed) extinction? They do have a knack for being 'overzealous' when it comes to combat, it wouldn't surprise me if the Council wanted to let off the pressure, but the Krogan ignored them.

[bunch1]

Granted the Rachni are fairly alien compared to the rest of the galaxy, but killing them to the last egg (as far as everyone knew) seemed to be a little excessive. Why wouldn't they just push them back to their home world and lock them there, blowing any attempts at leaving atmosphere out of the sky? The Krogan easily had enough ships to patrol Suren and keep the Rachni in check by the end of the war, so why wouldn't they just quarantine the planet? The Council forced the Krogan back to Tuchanka without wiping them out, even though they (arguably) posed a greater threat than the Rachni did, it just seems out of character for the Asari and Slarians to okay the complete annihilation of an obviously intelligent species. 

 

 

Then again, maybe it was the Krogans operating against orders that resulted in the Rachni's (supposed) extinction? They do have a knack for being 'overzealous' when it comes to combat, it wouldn't surprise me if the Council wanted to let off the pressure, but the Krogan ignored them.

I do recall that the codex says that the council's couldn't contact the queens and that they refused to surrender even when they were pushed back to their homeworld.  The council may have seen their eratication as the only viable option after so many years of bloody war as oposed to an endless siege constantly blowing Rachni out of the skies for thousands of years.

 

It is posible that the Krogan were spared complete destruction becasue the council learned from it's previous mistakes.  The genocide of a specious that you have been fighting for hundreds of years may seem resonable at the time but in hindsight it becomes harder to deal with and the thought of doing that again to a specious that they uplifted to fight their war and save their specious may have just been to much, particualry to the Asari who still remebered the Rachni Wars and how they wiped them out.  Or they may have been spared as payment for their sacrifice aginst the Rachni and to preserve them for some future conflict, like if the Turians turned on the council or any new specious that they couldn't deal with.  The option to cure them would always be their, as a lone Salarian was able to figure it out in a couple of years, that they could offer them to fight their war all the while planning something new to contain the Krogan.  Or it could have simply been that until the genophage they were losing the war and it forced the krogan to surrender and killing off a race that had already surrendured was just not something the honerable Turians, guilty Salarians, and compasonte Asari were willing to do. 

[Farangbaa]

As far as I understood (and my memory recalls), the complete annihilation was not a Council decision, but just the Krogan going all the way.

I might be wrong here.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He has never even seen a Rachni, and I would doubt that even his father or grandfather saw one either, but here he is passing judgment over a species based on the actions of their ancestors. 

Wrex's father and grandfather(if alive when the war happened) would have definitely seen a Rachni. The Patriarch in Omega fought in the Rachni War, and he is still alive. Wrex fought, or was at least alive, during the Krogan Rebellions which were only a few centuries later. The Krogan are the longest living organic race in Mass Effect. 

[Vortex13]

Wrex's father and grandfather(if alive when the war happened) would have definitely seen a Rachni. The Patriarch in Omega fought in the Rachni War, and he is still alive. Wrex fought, or was at least alive, during the Krogan Rebellions which were only a few centuries later. The Krogan are the longest living organic race in Mass Effect. 

 

 

Is Wrex that old? I always thought that he was around (at most) 700 - 800. The lore does mention that 300 years have past since he killed his father and when he meets Shepard but I am not sure that he is old enough to have been alive during the Krogan Rebellions over 1,500 years ago. 

 

 

 

Even if he had first hand or second hand experience from the Rachni prior to Peak 15, he still is rather set on only believing that the Queen is a monstrous abomination despite her attempts at dialogue. In fact he finds it offensive that Shepard would even listen to what the she has to say and is all for activating the acid bath immediately.

 

This is interesting because it is almost a direct parallel of how the Krogan are viewed by the galaxy at large. Of course Wrex doesn't want people to only see his race as the bloodthirsty horde that destroyed (at least) 3 garden worlds in their rebellions. Its a double standard on his part:

 

There is no redemption for the Rachni because of all the suffering and death that they caused when they invaded, but the Krogan deserve a second chance even though they caused (arguably) more death and suffering in their war and have consistently shown that they are against acclimating to galactic society (or at least not taken to being hostile to every non-Krogan they meet) after the Genophage. 

 

You can say that Wrex is being clouded by emotional bias here, but he has been shown to exercise logic when dealing with similarly 'sensitive' issues. He and his father came to blows over Wrex's refusal to let emotion and tradition cloud his judgement concerning the future of their species. Clearly, he is capable of looking at things objectively, he just chooses not to when dealing with the Rachni.