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Bioware - This is how you bring back the warden. The six best ideas that have been posted. P.S. folks, be nice to each other!


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#226
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You actually did get to command them to an extent. commanding and entire army would be a bit complex for the type of game Dragon age is. you'd need to completely overhaul the entire gameplay to make it work.

I did feel more significant though. and it was a mission to restore unity not just gain an army.

You "command" in DAO with even less authority than you lead your own party, in the sense that you are a bit like a platoon commander.

You don't get to decide tactics or strategy. You have forced to march to Redcliffe and forced to march back, for example. Riordan calls the shots along with Eamon and the ruler of Ferelden.

You literally get 5 fetch quests in DAO:

Circle - Go fetch Irving.
Orzammar - Go fetch Branka.
Dalish - Go fetch Witherfang's heart.
Redcliffe - Go fetch the Sacred Ashes.
Denerim - Go fetch Anora/evidence of slavery.

#227
sleeping heart

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You "command" in DAO with even less authority than you lead your own party, in the sense that you are a bit like a platoon commander.

You don't get to decide tactics or strategy. You have forced to march to Redcliffe and forced to march back, for example. Riordan calls the shots along with Eamon and the ruler of Ferelden.

You literally get 5 fetch quests in DAO:

 

the forces you have gathered in DA:O already have their own commanders, everyone had their own job to do. yours was to get to the Archdemon, theirs was to make that possible.

 

 

Circle - Go fetch Irving.
Orzammar - Go fetch Branka.
Dalish - Go fetch Witherfang's heart.
Redcliffe - Go fetch the Sacred Ashes.
Denerim - Go fetch Anora/evidence of slavery.

 

 

what is your point or do you even have one?. those where a bit more than simple fetch quests considering they played a significant role in the story and lore. and had many different outcomes.

Unless of course you're attributing them not to the actual trope but the act of going out and finding someone or accomplishing something.... Which is a key element in RPG's in general the question is rather or not said quests feel tedious or pointless.



#228
Xetykins

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You literally get 5 fetch quests in DAO:
Circle - Go fetch Irving.
Orzammar - Go fetch Branka.
Dalish - Go fetch Witherfang's heart.
Redcliffe - Go fetch the Sacred Ashes.
Denerim - Go fetch Anora/evidence of slavery.


If only the fetch quests in DAI are as well done and just as interesting as those, then people won't complaining right now. Well, not all, but at least keeps them down to the minimum nay-sayers at least.
Certainly beats fetching ram meats and blankets imho.
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#229
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If only the fetch quests in DAI are as well done and just as interesting as those, then people won't complaining right now. Well, not all, but at least keeps them down to the minimum nay-sayers at least.
Certainly beats fetching ram meats and blankets imho.


I'm not trying to defend the quests in DAI. I just don't think DAO had a particularly engaging quest design. I don't think Bioeare will put out a better set of side quests by following DAO, which I think had poor quest design.

#230
Xetykins

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I'm not trying to defend the quests in DAI. I just don't think DAO had a particularly engaging quest design. I don't think Bioeare will put out a better set of side quests by following DAO, which I think had poor quest design.


Ok each to their own. Because those side quests had very nice stories, with even plenty of choices within them. And all of them are actually tied to the main quests, not some boring fillers.

#231
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the forces you have gathered in DA:O already have their own commanders, everyone had their own job to do. yours was to get to the Archdemon, theirs was to make that possible.
 
 

 

what is your point or do you even have one?. those where a bit more than simple fetch quests considering they played a significant role in the story and lore. and had many different outcomes.
Unless of course you're attributing them not to the actual trope but the act of going out and finding someone or accomplishing something.... Which is a key element in RPG's in general the question is rather or not said quests feel tedious or pointless.


I am saying three things.

The first is that you were not a commander in DAO in the same way you are in DAI. While there is some disconnect between gameplay and story in that if it were like IRL the Inquisitor would not just randomly adventure across Thedas on a whim, you get far more substantive command in DAI.

The second is that DAO did not actually have as epic a main quest as people say. While the showdown at Denerimwas dramatic and well done it was a minor portion of the game. The vast majority of the game is spent doing significantly more mundane things. It goes without saying the quest lines in DAO are better than most DAI quests. I would argue however that they are not as good as the (admittedly short) DAI main quest "missions" and that those missions in DAI involved more varied ideas. We had:

1. A desperate run to calm the breach in the prologue.
2. A trip in time in Hushed Whispers or a political recruitment turned turned conspiracy with a jaunt in the Fade.
3. The phenomenal In Your Heart Shall Burn, where unlike Ostagar we actually are the dramatic focus.
4. A military siege and an interesting theological pickle.
5. A grand ball and a political thriller.
6. A military campaign turned archeological dig.

There are a lot of issues with how DAI ended up executing these ideas and a lot of room for improvement. But on the doc ept level I think DAI is just above and beyond DAO on a plot level, as we don't just have 5 well executed errands. IMO only the Anvil of the Void run and perhaps the DAO Fade segment are comparable.

The third point is that DAO had some crap quest design even in the MQ. It was covered up by a lot of good dialogue and interaction unlike DAI but that doesn't quite mean it's a model to follow. If Biowarw doesn't have the resources to put in substantial dialogue in every side quest and doesn't want long main quest chains like DAO then it needs better quest design.
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#232
AlanC9

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Note that the hero not having a heck of a lot of choices is fairly common in heroic literature. I think it's got something to do with the hero's role being essentially about putting things back to a pre-existing order.

#233
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Note that the hero not having a heck of a lot of choices is fairly common in heroic literature. I think it's got something to do with the hero's role being essentially about putting things back to a pre-existing order.


A lot of western fiction is now enchanted with that trope. One I quite dislike. I much prefer fantasy focused on an inevitable change.
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#234
Dubya75

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The existence of this topic (STILL asking for the Warden's return) is testimony to how miserably Bioware failed with DAI. I mean, this is a "Bioware" game, right? We're supposed to get attached to the Inquisitor like we got attached to the Warden.

 

But apparently not so. The Inquisitor (and DAI for that matter) is utterly forgettable.

 

Before they do any more damage, my opinion is that Bioware needs to just end the Dragon Age franchise altogether.



#235
AlanC9

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A lot of western fiction is now enchanted with that trope. One I quite dislike. I much prefer fantasy focused on an inevitable change.


Hmm... what are good examples of the latter?

#236
Saphiron123

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I remember running 5 errands to beg 5 political figures for an army I didn't get to command. Don't put DA:O on a pedestal - you're even more of an errand runner in that game, when the whole main plot is 5 errands.

There's a big difference between an in depth story in orzimmar to find the anvil of the void and crown a new king, and delivering an urn of ashes because a piece of paper tells you to for quest complete and plus 2 power with no companion dialogue, no cinematics, and not even an NPC.

Does DAO have similar quests? Sure, but they're in the minority. Fetch quests are the majority in DAI, like finding 48 copies of Varrick's book.

Not the same thing at all. And at least the allies you choose affect the final battle, your choices affect the world and create unique world events.

I get it dude, you're not a fan of DAO, but holy crap, comparing redcliff with the undead and the search for the urn of sacred ashes to delivering some lady's ring in the hinterlands for one line of dialogue is insane. Those were, to me and to many many people on this forum, great quests with amazing characters and memorable moments. I'd gladly make a king or break a curse or stop an army of the dead or challenge a memorable group of cultists any day over collecting 8 bear claws in the hinterlands.

And at least your army participated in DAO, you could bring in werewolves and elven archers and golems to face the darkspawn in Denerim, sure it was a little basic, but it was also a much older game. Your choices affected the entire story, it wasn't like the maps in DAI that you could skip without having an affect on the main storyline.

DAO did questing and the presentation of the war far better, and it did it years ago with half the technology. DAI is prettier, far prettier, but it wasn't memorable.
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#237
Saphiron123

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The existence of this topic (STILL asking for the Warden's return) is testimony to how miserably Bioware failed with DAI. I mean, this is a "Bioware" game, right? We're supposed to get attached to the Inquisitor like we got attached to the Warden.

But apparently not so. The Inquisitor (and DAI for that matter) is utterly forgettable.

Before they do any more damage, my opinion is that Bioware needs to just end the Dragon Age franchise altogether.


I want to see dragon age continued, and I like my inquisitor, but after playing da2 again (after some hesitation, and I knew about the pitfalls so I was able to ignore them) I actually enjoyed it more... The story was more complicated, and I liked femhawke more.

But neither character had a story as memorable and characters Iiked as much as those in origins. The warden was our finest protagonist.
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#238
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Hmm... what are good examples of the latter?


I actually think LOTR is a bit of an example. The status quo is lost. All the players - the major ones, not Frodo - know that even if Sauron is defeated the tide of history has changed. This is portrayed as a lamentable thing, of course, but it is a theme.

KoTOR2 plays with this theme a bit. DA2 alludes to this but fails to get it across.

I honestly haven't played anything recently with theme.

#239
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A lot of western fiction is now enchanted with that trope. One I quite dislike. I much prefer fantasy focused on an inevitable change.

 

Dark Souls style.  B)



#240
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Sure but why does the story they want to tell exclude past characters whether they be Hawke or Warden or what ever PC you can think of. As we agreed the themes you stated do not exclude the Warden from joining the story. But let's do that, let's assume that the story should not fit the Warden's return, let's suppose we agree on this point, what kind of story would it need to be?

 

Second we both agree that we simply do not know what story the writers want to write next. For all we know it could favour the Warden returning. These are examples of very difficult variable changes that we can both say: "If X was this, then I'd be in the right!" But neither of us know what X is so we can't see that it is in either of our favour.

 
With a new PC, the story could be about almost anything, as long as it stays in Thedas. With a returning PC, especially one who's a blank slate light the HoF, I would the story to fit well with the PC, to be connected with events of the previous installment. I don't think it's impossible, just unlikely.
 
And I'm saying I'd rather the story really fit the Warden if the Warden was to return as the PC. Not just, tossing the Warden into this new unrelated conflict, because he's so awesome or something.

 

As for me it wouldn't be a distraction but an interesting outlook on how the Warden (or an old PC, lets just use old PC to describe any former PC since, if we cannot agree on returning PCs, it wouldn't really matter using the Warden as a returning PC) develops while taking into account old experiences from past games and events. How would my character view so and so given that he reacted in such and such way in previous games? I would argue that it strengthens the role playing aspect further. After all neither of us enters into dilemmas or problems with a blank slate, how we view new problems and find solutions is by reflections on our past actions and experiences.

 

Well, remember, I picked this option:

 

"Though returning PCs and new PCs may be equal with each their merit and fault, I think in this particular scenario new PCs would fit better because..."

 

So, I agree that in some scenarios, what you are stating you want here would be interesting, make sense, and when planned ahead well, not have a high probability of contradicting my character's previous motivations. I disagree with regard to the Warden. 

 

In regards to ME and the way it left it open the same could be said for the Eluvian after origins (though it turned out Bioware waved a wand and made us go to Dimension C-X31. The same could now be said for however they should leave any game I suppose, that it can be dealt easily) or the Calling after Inquisition.

 

I'll point out here why I am for mostly the Warden's return. Almost all of my companions from Origins made a return in other games save for Wynne, Oghren and Sten. And the whole time I can't stop to think: "well if my companions are also included and built upon, where the hell is my Warden?" Would it not be a short step to now return the Warden? You state that stories should be built first then characters made to enter it, why then is Morrigan in the last damn place anyone would expect. In an Orlesian court for crying out loud! They've already returned the companions what the hell is left? Which is it that they want to explore completely new avenues every iteration or what? It seems they want to have a foot in both worlds without deciding. I would be very content to let the returning PC issue go if they didn't keep returning companions every damn time. Not to mention that they keep talking about the Warden like he should be here and all I can say is: "well why the hell isn't he here?" (My characters were all male so feel free to replace 'he' with 'she' whenever we discuss a protagonist).

 

And apologies that last paragraph was more a rant than a coherent argument but I thought that I owed a personal explanation for why I was pushing for my side.

 

The end of ME1 teased Shepard's continuing conflict with the Reapers. With the ending of Witch Hunt and the Eluvians, it teased more of Morrigan, Flemeth, and the nature of the Eluvians. There wasn't really that strong of a connection between the Warden and the Eluvian, unless I suppose the Warden followed her, which only one of mine did. And it one case, it wasn't the HoF that tracked down Morrigan, 'cause she was dead.

 

And the difference between the Warden returning and some companions returning, is that the writers can continue to develop the companions, have them go through an arch or further explore their back story. I don't want BioWare to further develop my Warden, and given that the major conflict in Origins was resolved, I'm not particularly engaged with the idea of continuing to roleplay my Warden, or the Orlesian Warden if the HoF is dead.



#241
Winged Silver

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The existence of this topic (STILL asking for the Warden's return) is testimony to how miserably Bioware failed with DAI. I mean, this is a "Bioware" game, right? We're supposed to get attached to the Inquisitor like we got attached to the Warden.

 

But apparently not so. The Inquisitor (and DAI for that matter) is utterly forgettable.

 

Before they do any more damage, my opinion is that Bioware needs to just end the Dragon Age franchise altogether.

 

Going to have to respectfully disagree there. For me, the Warden is on par with the Inquisitor. Both have their separate set of pros and cons. I always found Hawke to be the most interesting as a stand alone protagonist, whereas with the Warden and the Inquisitor, I had to do a fair amount of headcanon. As in, it's unlikely I'd replay either Origins or Inquisition without having a specific character I want to roleplay as. With Hawke, it's easier to just jump in and snicker at witty Hawke's tactless attitude. Sure it takes away some player agency, but that isn't always a terrible thing.

 

As a product of being silent, the Warden had many more options of dialog, and the companions had more to say, but it also resulted in some weird conversations that went:

 

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

 

and so on. With the Inquisitor, there was less being said by the PC, but an overall more cohesive flow to a conversation (at least, that's how it felt to me). Pros and cons. I couldn't really say which was the best route, as each had strengths and weaknesses.

 

Also, I'd hate to see them end the franchise. Let them experiment a little, I say. They've obviously seen by now how people reacted to the open world set up, and I'm curious to see how they handle it from here. 


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#242
Dubya75

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Going to have to respectfully disagree there. For me, the Warden is on par with the Inquisitor. Both have their separate set of pros and cons. I always found Hawke to be the most interesting as a stand alone protagonist, whereas with the Warden and the Inquisitor, I had to do a fair amount of headcanon. As in, it's unlikely I'd replay either Origins or Inquisition without having a specific character I want to roleplay as. With Hawke, it's easier to just jump in and snicker at witty Hawke's tactless attitude. Sure it takes away some player agency, but that isn't always a terrible thing.

 

As a product of being silent, the Warden had many more options of dialog, and the companions had more to say, but it also resulted in some weird conversations that went:

 

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

"question?"

NPC: "yadadada. Alright, anything else you want to ask about?"

 

and so on. With the Inquisitor, there was less being said by the PC, but an overall more cohesive flow to a conversation (at least, that's how it felt to me). Pros and cons. I couldn't really say which was the best route, as each had strengths and weaknesses.

 

Also, I'd hate to see them end the franchise. Let them experiment a little, I say. They've obviously seen by now how people reacted to the open world set up, and I'm curious to see how they handle it from here. 

 

You opinion on this is absolutely valid.

But the feeling I get from these forums related to the Inquisitor, is that people don't really connect with him/her. I know I don't. Something is missing and I still haven't quite figured out exactly what it is...


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#243
Winged Silver

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You opinion on this is absolutely valid.

But the feeling I get from these forums related to the Inquisitor, is that people don't really connect with him/her. I know I don't. Something is missing and I still haven't quite figured out exactly what it is...

 

Yeah, I've definitely seen more than a few posts talking about you mean. It's a tough balancing act, and it could be improved.


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#244
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You opinion on this is absolutely valid.

But the feeling I get from these forums related to the Inquisitor, is that people don't really connect with him/her. I know I don't. Something is missing and I still haven't quite figured out exactly what it is...

 

Well, people complain about that part more. It happened with DA:O when we had lost of pro-PC-VO threads and comparisons to Shepard. It happened with Hawke. It's now happening with the Inquisitor. In general, people are less inclined to say they're content than disappointed. 


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#245
Saphiron123

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Well, people complain about that part more. It happened with DA:O when we had lost of pro-PC-VO threads and comparisons to Shepard. It happened with Hawke. It's now happening with the Inquisitor. In general, people are less inclined to say they're content than disappointed. 

Play an cold and callous inquisitor... you can't really. You can be a little harsh at times but the inquisitor doesn't vary that much no matter what you try to do. It's hard to connect with him versus the warden, there's a so few hard choices to really set each inquisitor apart.



#246
Auztin

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They have said the warden won't come back.He will be referenced throughout the games/DLC most likely.They have said they wanted to do different protagonists in each game so it would be wrong to demand they change a story based decision because you don't like it.I would say move on & head cannon the ending for your warden.

#247
mjb203

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They have said the warden won't come back.He will be referenced throughout the games/DLC most likely.They have said they wanted to do different protagonists in each game so it would be wrong to demand they change a story based decision because you don't like it.I would say move on & head cannon the ending for your warden.

So why bring Hawke back?  The problem for Bioware is that they wrote themselves into this predicament by giving the "Warden mysteriously disappeared" excuse after DA:O and DA:A, and also by continuously bringing back everyone who seemingly had something to do with the Warden.  Bodahn and Sandal, Anders, Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, Alistair, Nathaniel, Cullen, Teagan (possibly with Isolde) and heck, even Isabela.  They went WAY overboard on the cameos from DA:O in both DA2 and DAI.  It makes even less sense for the Warden to mysteriously disappear if romanced by Leliana, given what was said at the end of DA2.  To me, this seems to be why a lot of people who want to see the Warden back.

 

I'm all for new protagonists, but Bioware really needs to stop the excessive cameos and stop referencing the past PCs if they want us to "move on".  If a new DLC involves darkspawn (as some teasers seem to indicate) in the SP campaign, it would be a good opportunity for the Warden to make an appearance.  For myself, that would work, as long as the Warden isn't killed in a trivial manner.  I would imagine that it would work for most others who want to see the Warden make an appearance in some fashion.


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#248
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Play an cold and callous inquisitor... you can't really. You can be a little harsh at times but the inquisitor doesn't vary that much no matter what you try to do. It's hard to connect with him versus the warden, there's a so few hard choices to really set each inquisitor apart.


Lots of choices set you apart. The difference is that instead of one of them being "unstable psycho who in the real world would be murdered by the party" the options have to do with your faith, belief and emotions.
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#249
Vault_Tec101

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1) With a new PC, the story could be about almost anything, as long as it stays in Thedas. With a returning PC, especially one who's a blank slate light the HoF, I would the story to fit well with the
 PC, to be connected with events of the previous installment. I don't think it's impossible, just unlikely.
 
2) And I'm saying I'd rather the story really fit the Warden if the Warden was to return as the PC. Not just, tossing the Warden into this new unrelated conflict, because he's so awesome or something.

 

(I hope you don't mind I've enumerated your quotes just so that I don't make a whole speech bubble for a single line and so that you know which points are directed to which of your own points. I have bolded them just so that it is made distinct that I added them and that they were not part of your quotation)

 

1) This is true but as we saw with the Inquisition example there was nothing hindering the Warden from, say, taking the place of the Inquisitor (though to be specific it was found that there was nothing preventing the Warden from exploring the themes outlined in DA:I). Actually your argument could be carried further; why allow returning instalments (not PCs but labelling the next game as DA:something). Could it not be said that it would be best that a brand new franchise be made for every theme one wishes to be explored? Of course this is an absurdity, I mean to show that there is nothing preventing the Warden, as also in the lore of DA, from exploring new themes.

 

But you raise an interesting point regarding connections with previous instalments (I assume heavy connections in this case and not something like "oh hey Ludwig was a companion in the last game and now he's a companion here too"). I would say though that this is not the best way to execute the goal of 'world exploration', if we agree that is a stated goal. I would go so far as to say that it is an artificial restriction to say that there ought to be a connection regarding events to past instalments.

 

I sense that you are making the argument that future games with returning PCs must have something to do with the events of the past instalment. Not so I think. In fact I want to show the example of the Witcher series; what connected Witcher 1 to Witcher 2 in terms of events? I seem to recall something about a drug cartel and the end of the world or some such nonsense occurring in Witcher 1 while Witcher 2 had you hunt the King Slayer who had you framed wrongly for a crime. What connected the two was not the events it was the characters. The same characters (companions) we see carried through the DA franchise, though half-assed may I add, without the central tether (returning PC) tying them all together.

 

2) To this I ask you what event ever occurred that was so perfectly suited for the people it ensnared? Let's try the converse; which characters were ever so perfectly made for an event or circumstance? Only the most boring! This is what would make a game absolutely uninteresting. If you are so perfect for the role then there is no deviation, no wiggle room, no room to define your character, something which is touted in this franchise and by Bioware at large. I am making the point that events that give rise to such interest, comedy or tragedy, among other things, occur precisely when one does not fit them and has to make do.

 

If I may I would like to add a tangent point mainly; the above is what lead to the boredom I found within DA:I regarding the Inquisitor. He fit the themes, role, and events perfectly...too perfectly. He was just as a prophet should be with no room for hatred, bigotry or faults; a DA:I equivalent of Jesus. Heh now I have a strange feeling to replay DA:I as Jesus, more fitting though would be RNJesus. Yes...that will be his name: RNJesus Trevelyan, bestowing masterwork schematics to all the huddled, yearning merchants who seem wholly incapable of producing just the right one.

 

 

3) Well, remember, I picked this option:

 

"Though returning PCs and new PCs may be equal with each their merit and fault, I think in this particular scenario new PCs would fit better because..."

 

So, I agree that in some scenarios, what you are stating you want here would be interesting, make sense, and when planned ahead well, not have a high probability of contradicting my character's previous motivations. I disagree with regard to the Warden. 

 

 

4) The end of ME1 teased Shepard's continuing conflict with the Reapers. With the ending of Witch Hunt and the Eluvians, it teased more of Morrigan, Flemeth, and the nature of the Eluvians. There wasn't really that strong of a connection between the Warden and the Eluvian, unless I suppose the Warden followed her, which only one of mine did. And it one case, it wasn't the HoF that tracked down Morrigan, 'cause she was dead.

 

5) And the difference between the Warden returning and some companions returning, is that the writers can continue to develop the companions, have them go through an arch or further explore their back story. 6) I don't want BioWare to further develop my Warden, and given that the major conflict in Origins was resolved, 7) I'm not particularly engaged with the idea of continuing to roleplay my Warden, or the Orlesian Warden if the HoF is dead.

 

 

3) True but note that when things are planned ahead well I dare say anything will be made well or executed to a remarkable degree. Why not start now? 

 

4) The conflict was more regarding the Reapers, the only connection to Sheppard was that he was the only one willing or capable of doing anything about it.

 

Regarding DA though It is still a strong point I think as there was nothing, to my knowledge anyway, that strongly required the Warden (or hinted at something similar to the Reapers) to return after DA:O even though it could have been manufactured afterwards in the next game. But, and there's always a but, this game does tease the conflict with the blight, the link it has with the Maker, and the Calling. Would you now say then that the next game ought to be about the Warden and the Calling? (we'll say here that the Calling refers to the blight, the darkspawn, your oncoming demise and the Maker link just to put it all under one umbrella similar to how the Reapers encompassed the protheans, star child, synthetics and other such concepts).

 

5) Here I want to argue that the task of developing companions is most easily achieved and actually favours returning PCs. Why so? Well note if you had new PCs but with old companions, how would the first X hours play out? "Hello Morrigan my name is ____, so what do you do for a living?" Even though from the last game we know what she does for a living we are forced in this game to redo that conversation because we have to; it's a new PC that cannot be assumed to be telepathic or omniscient to glean through the past instalment to know the answer. However with returning PCs that already know Morrigan and have found out what she does for a living we can now move on, use X hours and build on her character. We may now ask more intimate questions that would be restricted from new persons or PCs. Now this argument that I have made would fall absolutely flat if new companions were made but you made the point that "the writers can continue to develop the companions, have them go through an arch or further explore their back story"

 

6) Sure but the major conflict in Origins was similarly solved for Morrigan, Leliana and Anders why then are they allowed to have new conflicts of their own but not the Warden?

 

7) Aha! I've got you here! You say here that you are not interested in continuing the Warden if they are dead yet you mentioned above that they can explore the backstory or character arch of past companions even though they too may be killed in DA:O (you mentioned that your Morrigan died specifically). Are you similarly no longer interested in building up their character because they may be killed?



#250
Zatche

Zatche
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(I hope you don't mind I've enumerated your quotes just so that I don't make a whole speech bubble for a single line and so that you know which points are directed to which of your own points. I have bolded them just so that it is made distinct that I added them and that they were not part of your quotation)

 

1) This is true but as we saw with the Inquisition example there was nothing hindering the Warden from, say, taking the place of the Inquisitor (though to be specific it was found that there was nothing preventing the Warden from exploring the themes outlined in DA:I). Actually your argument could be carried further; why allow returning instalments (not PCs but labelling the next game as DA:something). Could it not be said that it would be best that a brand new franchise be made for every theme one wishes to be explored? Of course this is an absurdity, I mean to show that there is nothing preventing the Warden, as also in the lore of DA, from exploring new themes.

 

But you raise an interesting point regarding connections with previous instalments (I assume heavy connections in this case and not something like "oh hey Ludwig was a companion in the last game and now he's a companion here too"). I would say though that this is not the best way to execute the goal of 'world exploration', if we agree that is a stated goal. I would go so far as to say that it is an artificial restriction to say that there ought to be a connection regarding events to past instalments.

 

I sense that you are making the argument that future games with returning PCs must have something to do with the events of the past instalment. Not so I think. In fact I want to show the example of the Witcher series; what connected Witcher 1 to Witcher 2 in terms of events? I seem to recall something about a drug cartel and the end of the world or some such nonsense occurring in Witcher 1 while Witcher 2 had you hunt the King Slayer who had you framed wrongly for a crime. What connected the two was not the events it was the characters. The same characters (companions) we see carried through the DA franchise, though half-assed may I add, without the central tether (returning PC) tying them all together.

 

2) To this I ask you what event ever occurred that was so perfectly suited for the people it ensnared? Let's try the converse; which characters were ever so perfectly made for an event or circumstance? Only the most boring! This is what would make a game absolutely uninteresting. If you are so perfect for the role then there is no deviation, no wiggle room, no room to define your character, something which is touted in this franchise and by Bioware at large. I am making the point that events that give rise to such interest, comedy or tragedy, among other things, occur precisely when one does not fit them and has to make do.

 

If I may I would like to add a tangent point mainly; the above is what lead to the boredom I found within DA:I regarding the Inquisitor. He fit the themes, role, and events perfectly...too perfectly. He was just as a prophet should be with no room for hatred, bigotry or faults; a DA:I equivalent of Jesus. Heh now I have a strange feeling to replay DA:I as Jesus, more fitting though would be RNJesus. Yes...that will be his name: RNJesus Trevelyan, bestowing masterwork schematics to all the huddled, yearning merchants who seem wholly incapable of producing just the right one.

 

3) True but note that when things are planned ahead well I dare say anything will be made well or executed to a remarkable degree. Why not start now? 

 

4) The conflict was more regarding the Reapers, the only connection to Sheppard was that he was the only one willing or capable of doing anything about it.

 

Regarding DA though It is still a strong point I think as there was nothing, to my knowledge anyway, that strongly required the Warden (or hinted at something similar to the Reapers) to return after DA:O even though it could have been manufactured afterwards in the next game. But, and there's always a but, this game does tease the conflict with the blight, the link it has with the Maker, and the Calling. Would you now say then that the next game ought to be about the Warden and the Calling? (we'll say here that the Calling refers to the blight, the darkspawn, your oncoming demise and the Maker link just to put it all under one umbrella similar to how the Reapers encompassed the protheans, star child, synthetics and other such concepts).

 

5) Here I want to argue that the task of developing companions is most easily achieved and actually favours returning PCs. Why so? Well note if you had new PCs but with old companions, how would the first X hours play out? "Hello Morrigan my name is ____, so what do you do for a living?" Even though from the last game we know what she does for a living we are forced in this game to redo that conversation because we have to; it's a new PC that cannot be assumed to be telepathic or omniscient to glean through the past instalment to know the answer. However with returning PCs that already know Morrigan and have found out what she does for a living we can now move on, use X hours and build on her character. We may now ask more intimate questions that would be restricted from new persons or PCs. Now this argument that I have made would fall absolutely flat if new companions were made but you made the point that "the writers can continue to develop the companions, have them go through an arch or further explore their back story"

 

6) Sure but the major conflict in Origins was similarly solved for Morrigan, Leliana and Anders why then are they allowed to have new conflicts of their own but not the Warden?

 

7) Aha! I've got you here! You say here that you are not interested in continuing the Warden if they are dead yet you mentioned above that they can explore the backstory or character arch of past companions even though they too may be killed in DA:O (you mentioned that your Morrigan died specifically). Are you similarly no longer interested in building up their character because they may be killed?

 

1. You seem to be taking most of my points and taking them to the furthest extremes. I'm trying point out that are issues which I think make bringing the Warden back as the PC problematic, and thus I put them on the "Con" side of the drawing pad (Or maybe for some, it's a general rule with exceptions). I'm not saying the issues are absolute deal breakers for everything you possibly can apply, no matter how severely it applies. I generally try not to think in such platitudes. So, yeah, I'll admit that argument can be applied to any sequel in the series, but since there are more story restrictions on bringing back the Warden and staying in Thedas, than just staying in Thedas, I'd consider that a negligible Con for the next DA sequel.

 

As to the connections between installments. I think I'd only really feel the need for the connection if we're using the same PC again. Otherwise, it's just, force this character into a new conflict again and again. With the Witcher, Geralt's a mostly defined character, as are his companions.So, see my response to Point 6.

 

2. I disagree with the point that writing a character to fit the story means the character will be uninteresting. I also found the idea of being a religious figure in DAI quite interesting. And I liked that I could roleplay someone who embraces it or as someone who denies the title, someone who wants to buck the direction that the Chantry has been taking for years or someone who wants to continue it.

 

3. I would've rather they started planting seeds earlier, so that it all makes sense later, like I thought they were doing for ME. I do not get the impression that they've done this for the Warden.

 

4. I didn't really see the search for the cure as a hook for the next game, but an answer to the "Hey, what's my Warden up to?" queries from fans. The Hook for the next game, or maybe just DLC, is WTF Solas?

 

5. Fair point. It worked pretty well for certain characters in Mass Effect. But with a new conflict, and hopefully a new regions to explore, I do expect and want more new characters than returning ones.

 

6. The Warden's defining trait was that he/she got dumped into a conflict and was a skilled combatant. Most of everything else is defined by the player. Leliana, Morrigan, and Anders all had their own agendas, defined by the writers, which they could further explore. If the writers tried furthering my Warden's agenda, they could easily contradict how I role-played my character.

 

7. I wasn't stating there that I'm not interested in the continuing with Warden, because he/she could be dead. (Not with those particular sentences anyway) I was just restating that I'm, well, just not that interested.

 

And I wasn't actually referring to a dead Morrigan in Point 5, I was referring to my dead Female Elf Magi Warden. I would say let's pretend I did, so we can have that discussion of comparing the difficulties of having the Warden vs Morrigan return, but my "stabbed through the chest Morrigan" world state seemed to have been bugged and I don't know how that was actually supposed to be handled in DAI, so let's go with Leliana.

 

Leliana could have a few different states in Inquisition; Hardened, Unhardened, Romanced, Supposedly dead. But she was still, mostly, the same person. The deviations, I thought, were handled reasonably well. She's more ruthless if she's hardened. She talks about the Warden if she was romanced. She talks about how the she thought the Maker saved her if she was supposedly dead, but now that she questioning her faith and is not so sure (Fits pretty well into themes about faith). There are far more variables to the state of the Warden, so many different ways that I could've roleplayed the character, that Bioware would either spend way too many resources to support it for it to be worth it, or do a crappy of job of supporting it.