Or maybe these people aren't property and can have their own agenda? I agree Bioware shouldn't harp so much about happily ever after since that wasn't even part of most of the DAO endings, but the idea that somehow an LI is tied at the hip with the PC and cannot either just full on dump you or pursue some goal without you is, imo, pretty unreasonable.
All the more reason not to bring back player characters or their love interests.
Let players decide if they get a "happily ever after" or not.
The six best way's I've seen to bring back the Warden are:
1. Learn to let go.
2. Move on and embrace a new protagonist.
3. Take up modding and create new adventures for the Hero of Ferelden yourself.*
4. Write fanfic featuring the Hero of Ferelden.
5. Create fan art featuring the Hero of Ferelden.
6. Name your Inquisitor "Warden".
*I have to put my money where my mouth is on this one. I was unsatisfied with Regalyan d'Marcall's fate in DAI. I can accept that he died. I just wish he'd had some actual screen time before doing so. To that end, I'm making a mod featuring him as a companion using the DAO toolset. I would have liked to use the DAI toolset instead for obvious reasons, but it isn't available, so I'm making do.
Revan too.
And the Exile, but that's not a Bioware character.
Ah, forgot about Revan...I try to forget that Old Republic exists at all. It feels so far removed from Knights of the Old Republic as I know it. Also, is Revan officially dead with that new expansion they released recently?
Or maybe these people aren't property and can have their own agenda? I agree Bioware shouldn't harp so much about happily ever after since that wasn't even part of most of the DAO endings, but the idea that somehow an LI is tied at the hip with the PC and cannot either just full on dump you or pursue some goal without you is, imo, pretty unreasonable.
I agree for the most part, but on the other hand, from a headcanon stand point, there's nothing stopping a Warden from following his/her LI to whatever quest they decide to pursue. You could argue that it's the PC tying himself to the LI rather than the other way around.
When DA2 was out I put in the suggestions of a DLC featuring the last moments of the HOF/Warden Commander and it was all about the calling with Hawke and 2 other companions in the Deep Roads. It would end with the HOF/Warden Commander leaving Hawke and the 2 other companions to end his/her time in the Deep Roads. I thought it would be a sad but fitting end to the HOF's story.
I have read rumours and repeat rumours that DA:I is the last we'll see Orlais and Fereldan for quite some time as it's rumoured that Bioware want to move north with the next game i.e. Par Vollen, Tevinter etc so again would it not be fitting to have the last DLC of DA:I featuring 3 heroes from the 3 games and a special guest all feature in an epic story as we end our time in the South of Thedas with a bang.
Whether or not biower brings back the HoF, for me, isn't a big deal. I was satisfied with the letter from the war table operation. However, they've only got themselves to blame for people wanting them back. If they wanted the Warden's story to be over, they should have never made the end reference to them from Cass in DA2 and shouldn't have brought back so many of the companions from Origins. DA:O and DA2 both ended rather anticlimactically (i.e.: the Warden/Hawke mysteriously disappears!). Writing like this may work for one protagonist, but it gets old very quick. I appreciate the fact that Bioware wants a new main character for each game in the series, but for crying out loud, if you're going to do that, don't keep rehashing old companions! If Leliana or Cullen shows up in DA4, then they need to get new writers.
For everyone complaining that those who want the HoF back need to let go, maybe you should let Bioware know that they need to let the HoF's companions go as well. Don't be ragging on people who want the Warden back, especially if they're trying to come up with ways that could possibly work. They need to make NEW characters that we, as players, can get to know. This is really the only way they can expand the DA universe, because right now, it still feels like everything is centering around the Origins characters, which is a big reason why some people can't let their Warden go.
Whether or not biower brings back the HoF, for me, isn't a big deal. I was satisfied with the letter from the war table operation. However, they've only got themselves to blame for people wanting them back. If they wanted the Warden's story to be over, they should have never made the end reference to them from Cass in DA2 and shouldn't have brought back so many of the companions from Origins. DA:O and DA2 both ended rather anticlimactically (i.e.: the Warden/Hawke mysteriously disappears!). Writing like this may work for one protagonist, but it gets old very quick. I appreciate the fact that Bioware wants a new main character for each game in the series, but for crying out loud, if you're going to do that, don't keep rehashing old companions! If Leliana or Cullen shows up in DA4, then they need to get new writers.
For everyone complaining that those who want the HoF back need to let go, maybe you should let Bioware know that they need to let the HoF's companions go as well. Don't be ragging on people who want the Warden back, especially if they're trying to come up with ways that could possibly work. They need to make NEW characters that we, as players, can get to know. This is really the only way they can expand the DA universe, because right now, it still feels like everything is centering around the Origins characters, which is a big reason why some people can't let their Warden go.
Agreed, and very nicely put!
I mentioned on another thread that I'd prefer to have passing, ambiguous mentions of my Warden from now on, rather than have Bioware include him, then butcher his character, and/or canonically kill him off for no good reason. The quest he's on sounds important, and I'm hoping we can learn the results of it eventually (hopefully without needless death), but I don't think watching my Warden scour Thedas' libraries makes for very thrilling game play.
I'm especially curious if gaining the power of blood had any kind of effect on his darkspawn taint/calling (beneficial, benign, or malignant), or if it's ultimately a red herring, like so many other things.
Whether or not biower brings back the HoF, for me, isn't a big deal. I was satisfied with the letter from the war table operation. However, they've only got themselves to blame for people wanting them back. If they wanted the Warden's story to be over, they should have never made the end reference to them from Cass in DA2 and shouldn't have brought back so many of the companions from Origins. DA:O and DA2 both ended rather anticlimactically (i.e.: the Warden/Hawke mysteriously disappears!). Writing like this may work for one protagonist, but it gets old very quick. I appreciate the fact that Bioware wants a new main character for each game in the series, but for crying out loud, if you're going to do that, don't keep rehashing old companions! If Leliana or Cullen shows up in DA4, then they need to get new writers.
For everyone complaining that those who want the HoF back need to let go, maybe you should let Bioware know that they need to let the HoF's companions go as well. Don't be ragging on people who want the Warden back, especially if they're trying to come up with ways that could possibly work. They need to make NEW characters that we, as players, can get to know. This is really the only way they can expand the DA universe, because right now, it still feels like everything is centering around the Origins characters, which is a big reason why some people can't let their Warden go.
Hey, don't look at me! I was sick of Leliana before I was even done with Origins, and I certainly never wanted to see her in DA2, let alone Inquisition. I wasn't a fan of seeing Morrigan again, either. I'd argue about Cullen. His involvement in the Warden's story was too minimal to make it feel like dredging up the past, but whatever. He's had his time in the spotlight, finally, so I'd be perfectly OK with letting him retire.
Assuming that the game moves northward, I can understand seeing some characters again. In Tevinter, I wouldn't be surprised to hear about Dorian, Feynriel, Fenris, or Anders. I would be disappointed if I didn't get to meet Maevaris. But Morrigan and Leliana? No. Let them go. Same goes for Alistair, Loghain, Anora, Oghren, etc, etc, etc. That doesn't mean that I dislike the characters. I liked most of them just fine. But they've had enough curtain calls, and it's time to move on.
But if we go to Par Vollen, I kind of expect to see Sten. He's moved up in the world, I hear.
TL;DR: I wouldn't mind all new faces, but their reasons for being there has to be better than "It isn't a Dragon Age game unless Leliana is in it."
Or maybe these people aren't property and can have their own agenda? I agree Bioware shouldn't harp so much about happily ever after since that wasn't even part of most of the DAO endings, but the idea that somehow an LI is tied at the hip with the PC and cannot either just full on dump you or pursue some goal without you is, imo, pretty unreasonable.
What? The love interests from Origins can absolutely have their own agenda. That's what I want more of, if they're going to keep being forced back into mainline games. The problem is that in Inquisition, when these love interests come back in a main story point, they act in the most one sized fits all, generic fashion that barely acknowledges any of their character development with the Warden they're still in a relationship with.
Like Leliana never bringing up or having it surfaced to the player that her relationship with the Warden could factor into her decision to want to be Divine. Maybe it would have been interesting to have a conversation with Leliana as the Inquisitor during that whole process where if she was in a relationship with the Warden, she brings that up and underneath the hood, that factors into how likely she is to become Divine? Or at least have something in game like you had with Cassandra that has some level of reactivity towards a Divine Leliana being in a relationship and how she would act with that.
Or Morrigan at the Well of Sorrows. She brushes off Kieran when confronted with all the huge red flags and dangers of blindly slurping up the Well. And she doesn't even mention the Warden in any of that process. Why not upon questioning Morrigan about Kieran or her significant other, does she maybe pause a bit and maybe temper her willingness to drink from the Well? Have the fact that she has a kid and a significant other to think about affect the mechanics going on in the game to maybe make it so she ends up not willing to drink from the Well in that scenario? Or at least you'd have to really twist her arm to make her do it?
Its not about having the Warden tied to the hip of their LI or the LI not having any agency. On the contrary, I just want any LI to react in a way that shows to the player they still realize they are in a relationship with the Warden. They cooked up a decent excuse story wise as to why the Warden wasn't present in Inquisition with their LI. But if BioWare keeps dredging up these old LI's and putting them in future games minus the Warden, it stretches any sense of believability and comes across as them just cheaping out on showing not telling.
You got any data to back that up with? What percentage of DAI players even played DA:O in the first place? I don't really care or know if people who want the Warden back are in the majority among people who have a Warden, so I'll stipulate that we are a minority for whatever that's worth, though these threads don't really leave me with that opinion.
No, I don't. I think they might have dropped a hint as for how the HoF will trigger the events of the next plot, which some other PC will have to sort out. Or the whole thing's just a way for the Warden to exit, stage right. I could see that playing out either way.
Well, for what its worth, BioWare had their Ultimate Party vote where the Warden won amongst all prior DA PC's as most popular. So at a high level at least, people liked their Wardens. Doesn't say anything as to whether that means all those people want them back though. But the PC from a near 6 year old game beat out the PC from a barely 6 month old game.
For everyone complaining that those who want the HoF back need to let go, maybe you should let Bioware know that they need to let the HoF's companions go as well. Don't be ragging on people who want the Warden back, especially if they're trying to come up with ways that could possibly work. They need to make NEW characters that we, as players, can get to know. This is really the only way they can expand the DA universe, because right now, it still feels like everything is centering around the Origins characters, which is a big reason why some people can't let their Warden go.
Well put. I think its telling that in that Ultimate Party vote, 3 of the 4 spots were Origins characters (Warden, Morrigan, Alistair). I think a huge factor in people liking certain companions is that interplay you have between the PC and the companions and the companions amongst each other. So naturally when you bring back old companions, its going to make some people want to interact with those old companions or LIs again through the PC that had the closest relationship with them.
It gets back to how in Inquisition, so many of the big plot heavy choice moments don't center on the actual companions in Inquisition but instead companions from past games like Morrigan at the Well of Sorrows or Hawke/Loghain/Alistair/Stroud in the Fade. Why didn't BioWare thrust the new companions into those story heavy moments instead of relying on old ones?
Revan too.
And the Exile, but that's not a Bioware character.
Revan
Gorion's Ward
Hawke disappears, tba on that, but I'm guessing the Warden's aren't too friendly.
Anderson, if you really want to stretch it.
Revan
Gorion's Ward
Hawke disappears, tba on that, but I'm guessing the Warden's aren't too friendly.
Anderson, if you really want to stretch it.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your original point, but how are Anderson and Gorion's Ward demonstrations of this? Anderson is never a PC as I'm aware and Gorion's Ward is still alive at the end of Throne of Bhaal, as I recall, either as a deity or a mortal.
Whether or not biower brings back the HoF, for me, isn't a big deal. I was satisfied with the letter from the war table operation. However, they've only got themselves to blame for people wanting them back. If they wanted the Warden's story to be over, they should have never made the end reference to them from Cass in DA2 and shouldn't have brought back so many of the companions from Origins. DA:O and DA2 both ended rather anticlimactically (i.e.: the Warden/Hawke mysteriously disappears!). Writing like this may work for one protagonist, but it gets old very quick. I appreciate the fact that Bioware wants a new main character for each game in the series, but for crying out loud, if you're going to do that, don't keep rehashing old companions! If Leliana or Cullen shows up in DA4, then they need to get new writers.
For everyone complaining that those who want the HoF back need to let go, maybe you should let Bioware know that they need to let the HoF's companions go as well. Don't be ragging on people who want the Warden back, especially if they're trying to come up with ways that could possibly work. They need to make NEW characters that we, as players, can get to know. This is really the only way they can expand the DA universe, because right now, it still feels like everything is centering around the Origins characters, which is a big reason why some people can't let their Warden go.
Hey, don't look at me! I was sick of Leliana before I was even done with Origins, and I certainly never wanted to see her in DA2, let alone Inquisition. I wasn't a fan of seeing Morrigan again, either. I'd argue about Cullen. His involvement in the Warden's story was too minimal to make it feel like dredging up the past, but whatever. He's had his time in the spotlight, finally, so I'd be perfectly OK with letting him retire.
Assuming that the game moves northward, I can understand seeing some characters again. In Tevinter, I wouldn't be surprised to hear about Dorian, Feynriel, Fenris, or Anders. I would be disappointed if I didn't get to meet Maevaris. But Morrigan and Leliana? No. Let them go. Same goes for Alistair, Loghain, Anora, Oghren, etc, etc, etc. That doesn't mean that I dislike the characters. I liked most of them just fine. But they've had enough curtain calls, and it's time to move on.
But if we go to Par Vollen, I kind of expect to see Sten. He's moved up in the world, I hear.
TL;DR: I wouldn't mind all new faces, but their reasons for being there has to be better than "It isn't a Dragon Age game unless Leliana is in it."
I wasn't trying to call anybody is specific out, but comments like "learn to let it go" and "move on" do nothing to move a conversation forward. All the OP did was list several things that have been thrown out as a reason to bring back the HoF for a DLC. Heck, even in game there are reasons to bring the Warden back. Specifically, if you side with the mages since Fiona is around and she's been cured of the taint (which would also bring an excellent opportunity to discuss the Architect as well). I don't know if there are any good reasons to bring the HoF back if the Templars are sided with though. But, that isn't a reason to pretend like there is NO good reason to bring the Warden back, when there are if you side with the mages.
Would I like to see my Warden back? Yeah, I kinda would, but only because things were left on such a cliffhanger after DA:A. Can I live with it if they aren't? Again, yeah.
As for my whole comment about Cullen, to me he just felt kinda shoehorned into DA2 just to have a familiar Templar face. But, it does give him (along with Varric) a good reason to be in DAI. Bottom line: if Bioware doesn't want to have to worry about bringing old protagonists back, then they shouldn't be bringing back old companions either. Maybe one or two that have a good story reason, but thats it. I'm glad Bodahn and Sandal were left out of this one. I'm also glad Wade and Herren aren't making constant appearances. And I've got reservations about them bringing back a certain someone as an MP character if the rumors are true. To me, it just makes the setting seem so much smaller when it's the same people, over and over and over.
I'd like to see some resolution regarding the Warden's fate, but I'm also happy to just assume they get a nice ending. While I wouldn't turn my nose up at DA4 if it turned out to be about our old Wardens, I also would feel very apprehensive. 'It wouldn't go right/Bioware wouldn't do them justice' may sound a little vague, as far as reasons for not doing it go, but they are valid reasons. With the Wardens (and the lack of a set 'personality') there's a lot of room to explore, regarding their character.
I also agree with a sentiment that's been voiced by a couple of people on the forums; Bioware needs to figure out exactly what they're doing with all their cameos. Of course there's no reason to assume the Warden will be with their LI at all times, but I think it's fair to say that seeing an old NPC stare at your new character blankly isn't really what many are looking for when they want to see the old faces. I think if they really want to keep the series about the world and the people in it, they need to cut ties with anybody who doesn't have a clear place in the (future) games.
I suppose to summarize: if they want to keep bringing back old faces, they should just bring the warden back as well. I dislike having to reintroduce myself each time. If they want to continue to bring in new faces, then a new PC is my preference. Either way, I'll keep an eye out for the next title.
The more cameos and returning companions we get the smaller Thedas feels. For me that is a negative.
So my vote is move the next game forward a good chunk of time so everyone we know is dead and go somewhere we haven't seen before. Deal with whatever left over questions there are for past protags/LI's with bards singing of heroic legends in some tavern somewhere (time and geographical distance can account for any vague or fudged details)
The Warden had his/her game. Her/his time in the spotlight is concluded and any attempt to bring the 'character' back in any meaningful capacity will inevitably be a disappointment because the Warden was not a character outside of what each individual player decided his or her Warden would be.
Indeed. They'd have to bring back the silent Protagonist. and that would make me very happy. but they are not going to do it sadly.
Nope. ToB isn't the end of the story.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your original point, but how are Anderson and Gorion's Ward demonstrations of this? Anderson is never a PC as I'm aware and Gorion's Ward is still alive at the end of Throne of Bhaal, as I recall, either as a deity or a mortal.
Nope. ToB isn't the end of the story.
Spoiler
D&D's 5th edition.
And was DnD's 5th edition written in any capacity by Bioware authors, just for clarification?
If not, I think that's a weak example of the policy you're putting forth. Bioware's only instance of killing a previous PC as an npc is Revan.
Still a Bioware character originally.
Though to be fair, said character was Abdel Adrian, the "canon" Bhaalspawn from the books that most people would rather pretend didn't exist (they were Bioware's Mass Effect: Deception of its time)
I mean, seriously, Minsc with long red hair???
What? The love interests from Origins can absolutely have their own agenda. That's what I want more of, if they're going to keep being forced back into mainline games. The problem is that in Inquisition, when these love interests come back in a main story point, they act in the most one sized fits all, generic fashion that barely acknowledges any of their character development with the Warden they're still in a relationship with.
Like Leliana never bringing up or having it surfaced to the player that her relationship with the Warden could factor into her decision to want to be Divine. Maybe it would have been interesting to have a conversation with Leliana as the Inquisitor during that whole process where if she was in a relationship with the Warden, she brings that up and underneath the hood, that factors into how likely she is to become Divine? Or at least have something in game like you had with Cassandra that has some level of reactivity towards a Divine Leliana being in a relationship and how she would act with that.
Or Morrigan at the Well of Sorrows. She brushes off Kieran when confronted with all the huge red flags and dangers of blindly slurping up the Well. And she doesn't even mention the Warden in any of that process. Why not upon questioning Morrigan about Kieran or her significant other, does she maybe pause a bit and maybe temper her willingness to drink from the Well? Have the fact that she has a kid and a significant other to think about affect the mechanics going on in the game to maybe make it so she ends up not willing to drink from the Well in that scenario? Or at least you'd have to really twist her arm to make her do it?
Its not about having the Warden tied to the hip of their LI or the LI not having any agency. On the contrary, I just want any LI to react in a way that shows to the player they still realize they are in a relationship with the Warden. They cooked up a decent excuse story wise as to why the Warden wasn't present in Inquisition with their LI. But if BioWare keeps dredging up these old LI's and putting them in future games minus the Warden, it stretches any sense of believability and comes across as them just cheaping out on showing not telling.
I come back to this point again, but these characters are not property. The fact that, for example, Leliana wants to become the a highly touted Chantry agent is a personal choice on her part. She owes the Warden exactly nothing in making that choice, beyond a willingness to make their relationship work despite the distance. The relationship should have even less impact on her desire to become Divine. I suppose you could criticise Bioware for not - on a meta-level - putting forward the fact that Leliana would reform the rules pertaining to the Divine's supposed celebacy if she became Divine not for the benefit of the plot but for the players who played DAO's sake, but that has nothing to do with what these characters as characters should consider.
Cassandra has a discussion with you about the relationship because it concerns you, and what it amounts to is her saying that she doesn't think it will work out. You don't get any say in her career choice, and she doesn't give your relationship any weight beyond expressing somewhat of a willingness to see where things go once she becomes Divine.
There's absolutely even less reason for Morrigan to mention the HOF at the Well of Sorrows since she is - from absolutely the start of your relationship - clear that you have 0 say in her life and goals. Your relationship with Morrigan only moves forward on her terms. You don't get to see your child unless you agree to go with her and pursue her goals, you don't get to spend time with her unless you go with her and pursue her goals, etc. It's absolutely in character for her to not consider her dependents or loved ones in making these choices. That it makes you feel like she doesn't appreciate your character is besides the point.
So it comes back to the Warden being tied to the hip with these old LIs, and the notion that being someone's lover entitles you to any actual consideration in a career decision beyond a willingness to have a genuine effort made at having the relationship continue.
D&D's 5th edition.
There's no such thing. That's just a horrible bad dream someone had. And I'm not too sure about the fourth edition either.
Yes, I am in denial.
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