252 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Wiseass]

I think some people might be uncomfortable with the idea that the Warden is not, in fact, a Mary Sue.

[AlanC9]

And was DnD's 5th edition written in any capacity by Bioware authors, just for clarification?
If not, I think that's a weak example of the policy you're putting forth. Bioware's only instance of killing a previous PC as an npc is Revan.

I think the example works. The proposition was that bad things tend to happen to Bio PCs if they come back in any other capacity than as a PC, not that Bio would necessarily have to do those bad things themselves.

[In Exile]

I think the example works. The proposition was that bad things tend to happen to Bio PCs if they come back in any other capacity than as a PC, not that Bio would necessarily have to do those bad things themselves.

 

Bioware's real problem is that they need to write out their previous PC to avoid having a non-PC just solve the plot. That's really why Obsidian put Revan in the fridge for KoTOR 2. 

[Il Divo]

I think the example works. The proposition was that bad things tend to happen to Bio PCs if they come back in any other capacity than as a PC, not that Bio would necessarily have to do those bad things themselves.

 

I think the proposition would work better if it emphasized how Bioware returning characters, whether companions or protagonists, tend to run into problems. We could look at examples like Garrus' and Leliana's character development and see why. Or the handling of the Warden in Awakening or Hawke in DA:I.

 

That I think is excellent grounds against the return of a protagonist. But other than Revan, we don't really have any concrete example of this happening. 

[turuzzusapatuttu]

[Iakus]

I think the example works. The proposition was that bad things tend to happen to Bio PCs if they come back in any other capacity than as a PC, not that Bio would necessarily have to do those bad things themselves.

Bad things happen to Bioware PCs if they come back as a PC too.

 

*looks at Shepard*

[Iakus]

There's no such thing. That's just a horrible bad dream someone had. And I'm not too sure about the fourth edition either.

Yes, I am in denial.

Hey my group's been playing 5th Edition for months now, and it's actually pretty good.  Lots of flexibility for customizing a campaign.

 

4th Edition we'd like to pretend didn't exist.  

[AlanC9]

I'll defer to you there. I haven't even seen any of the 5E materials.

[Br3admax]

There's no such thing. That's just a horrible bad dream someone had. And I'm not too sure about the fourth edition either.

Yes, I am in denial.

You need to move on. I have. 

 

And as far as I'm concerned, D&D has been gross for a very long time. 

 

Hey my group's been playing 5th Edition for months now, and it's actually pretty good.  Lots of flexibility for customizing a campaign.

 

4th Edition we'd like to pretend didn't exist.   

Hence why the 5th edition exists to pretend the 4th one does not. 

[Il Divo]

Hey my group's been playing 5th Edition for months now, and it's actually pretty good.  Lots of flexibility for customizing a campaign.

 

4th Edition we'd like to pretend didn't exist.  

 

Pretty much how I feel. Hell, with 5E I can now basically role-play an Avatar using the Monk of the Four Elements or whatever it's called. 

[Dai Grepher]

You got any data to back that up with? What percentage of DAI players even played DA:O in the first place? I don't really care or know if people who want the Warden back are in the majority among people who have a Warden, so I'll stipulate that we are a minority for whatever that's worth, though these threads don't really leave me with that opinion.
 

No, I don't. I think they might have dropped a hint as for how the HoF will trigger the events of the next plot, which some other PC will have to sort out. Or the whole thing's just a way for the Warden to exit, stage right. I could see that playing out either way.

 

Nope.

 

But the game itself shows there are more options to live than make the ultimate sacrifice.

 

1. Dark Ritual.

a. With Male Warden

b. With Alistair.

c. With Loghain

 

2. Alistair sacrifices himself.

 

3. Loghain sacrifices himself.

 

Also, both Alistair and Loghain insist on taking the final blow. And if the Warden is a female who romanced Alistair and he is with her when the archdemon falls, he automatically strikes the final blow.

 

Basically, the game makes it an uphill battle for you to strike the final blow yourself.

 

If you did the US then your Awakening game will probably not make sense, because in that case the Orlesian Warden shows up with a default world state, which probably won't match yours.

 

Those who played Inquisition without playing Origins probably have the default world state. In which case the Hero is dead and it doesn't matter anyway. An Orlesian Warden could show up in that case.

 

Aside from the cure, there is also more going on, like with Flemeth possibly having a hold over Morrigan or the Inquisitor. Or in the case of a Hero who romanced Morrigan, their son. The Hero would come back for them, would he not? A possible monarch Hero. A Dalish elf Hero and all the elven business as of late. There are just too many plots that the Hero ties in to now.

[Dai Grepher]

Oh dear, I disagree on the minority being done with the HoF but that's frankly irrelevant.

HoF required for success? The 134 GOTYs in BioWare's trophy cabinet say otherwise.

Who says Ferelden is likely to feature in the series again in the medium term, hints say otherwise.

It's BioWare's game, they are at liberty to tell the story the want to tell.

 

So, no, I don't think those things are valid.

 

Inquisition was a test of BioWare's ability to move back in the right direction. And most of those awards were won two weeks into launch when the game was barely functional. Also, GotY just means it was the best game out of all those released that year. If all the other games of that year are crap, then the least crappy game wins GotY.

 

The fan base says.

 

BioWare can ignore the fans if they want, but in that case they won't succeed.

[In Exile]

Inquisition was a test of BioWare's ability to move back in the right direction. And most of those awards were won two weeks into launch when the game was barely functional. Also, GotY just means it was the best game out of all those released that year. If all the other games of that year are crap, then the least crappy game wins GotY.

 

The fan base says.

 

BioWare can ignore the fans if they want, but in that case they won't succeed.

 

You mean all the fans in this thread asking for the opposite of what you want? 

[Br3admax]

 

That I think is excellent grounds against the return of a protagonist. But other than Revan, we don't really have any concrete example of this happening. 

Except for all the examples I just gave you? A PC is a protagonist. A protagonist does not have to be a PC. And the second Hawke goes out of your sight, s/he disappears. with crazy Grey Wardens. That's not exactly a stellar conclusion to any story by any means. And like I said, Gorion's Ward dies in ToB's book, which supersedes the game in canon and was written by a BioWare dev. 

[Saphiron123]

You mean all the fans in this thread asking for the opposite of what you want? 

Meh, they could do it in a way that doesn't hurt you, and pleases those of us who care about our HoF. If they could do it in a way that allows you to preserve your HoF off screen while creating a new greener character and lets us have our HoF on screen with some clever dialogue and introductions, everybody wins.

Is it perfect? No, but it's a start.

And the fanbase is pretty divided, as they are on the return of any character. The vast majority of nay sayers seem to think bioware would screw it up, there are some who don't want to see the warden such as yourself, adn even some who don't want ANY characters to return. There are people who hate leliana or hate morrigan, people who hate the inquisitor and hate the warden.

At least if they did something like this, everyone would have an option. Your warden could remain headcannon, and my warden could return.

It certainly beats half the fanbase being told they're out of luck, it'd be a wise move on bioware's part.

[Lux]

I demand request beg one more go with the Warden. Let's grab this calling by the horns in one more epic ride.

[FKA_Servo]

I wouldn't be mad if we got the warden again, but honestly, I like having a different protagonist, and I'd rather have largely different casts (I don't mind one or two familiar faces to bridge the different protagonists, though - which is pretty much what they've done in each game). And I would prefer Thedas itself taking center stage, because there's a lot of territory left to cover.

 

The warden, assuming s/he's alive, is the warden commander of Ferelden and/or the monarch of Ferelden. They've got **** to do there, and I want to get the hell out of there. Whatever justifications they'd have to spin to get that very important person to some of the other parts of Thedas would be half-assed. Not as interesting as a fresh start in a different part of the continent, if you ask me.

[AlanC9]

Aside from the cure, there is also more going on, like with Flemeth possibly having a hold over Morrigan or the Inquisitor. Or in the case of a Hero who romanced Morrigan, their son. The Hero would come back for them, would he not? A possible monarch Hero. A Dalish elf Hero and all the elven business as of late. There are just too many plots that the Hero ties in to now.

A bunch of different plots, yes -- none of which apply to all Wardens. If anything, these examples undermine the case for bringing the Warden back. You're making the Warden look like even more of a resource sink than ME2's SM outcomes were.

[Il Divo]

Meh, they could do it in a way that doesn't hurt you, and pleases those of us who care about our HoF. If they could do it in a way that allows you to preserve your HoF off screen while creating a new greener character and lets us have our HoF on screen with some clever dialogue and introductions, everybody wins.

Is it perfect? No, but it's a start.

 

I think you're understating the issue here. At best, he comes out of this whole thing without his Warden being compromised while having no desire to play the character. That's not "everybody wins". Resources which go to a feature you're not interested in is not a victory, particularly since Bioware has enough trouble as it is utilizing the import feature. 

[AlanC9]

Meh, they could do it in a way that doesn't hurt you, and pleases those of us who care about our HoF. If they could do it in a way that allows you to preserve your HoF off screen while creating a new greener character and lets us have our HoF on screen with some clever dialogue and introductions, everybody wins.

Again, we still lose by having a bunch of resources devoted to something we don't want.

If you really want to sell this idea, you need to start limiting the costs by pushing a crappy implementation. For instance, if no previous companions return, then Bio won't need to write large amounts of alternative dialogue.

You'd still have to sell us on the plot, of course.

[Dai Grepher]

You mean all the fans in this thread asking for the opposite of what you want? 

 

Those fans want the Hero back too. They just don't know it yet.

[In Exile]

Those fans want the Hero back too. They just don't know it yet.

 

We 100% know it. 

[Dai Grepher]

A bunch of different plots, yes -- none of which apply to all Wardens. If anything, these examples undermine the case for bringing the Warden back. You're making the Warden look like even more of a resource sink than ME2's SM outcomes were.

 

How does it undermine it? Every Hero will have at least one reason to return; the cure. That satisfies inclusion of all Heroes.

 

My point is that there are many more plots that fit certain Heroes as well. Thus making the Hero's reappearance even better!

 

If the Hero does not return then it will feel like something important is missing from the plot with NO reason for it to be missing. If the Hero is alive, then the Hero should be involved in some capacity. Why? Because it's the Hero. The savior! The amazing! The stupendous! ... The One!

 

♪ Iiii aaaam the One who can recouuuuunt whaaat we've lost... ♫

 

Iiii aaaam the One who will live ooooon!!! ♪ ♫

 

Yeah! The Hero has run through the fields of pain and sighs! The Hero has fought to see the other side! The Hero had a reason to not appear during Inquisition. The cure. After that, there is no reason to sit things out, unless we the players choose that reason ourselves through the option to leave the Hero out of it.

[Dai Grepher]

Again, we still lose by having a bunch of resources devoted to something we don't want.

If you really want to sell this idea, you need to start limiting the costs by pushing a crappy implementation. For instance, if no previous companions return, then Bio won't need to write large amounts of alternative dialogue.

You'd still have to sell us on the plot, of course.

 

Does that mean you're against Kieran being in the game, since many of us didn't do the Dark Ritual and in this case represents a "waste of resources"?

 

What about Samson and Calpernia? We only get to see one depending on the path we chose.

 

Why all the companions characters if we can choose to not recruit them? Wasted resources!

[Saphiron123]

Does that mean you're against Kieran being in the game, since many of us didn't do the Dark Ritual and in this case represents a "waste of resources"?

 

What about Samson and Calpernia? We only get to see one depending on the path we chose.

 

Why all the companions characters if we can choose to not recruit them? Wasted resources!

Agreed, no shortage of resources here. Maybe cut down the giant empty map size by 15%, they'd have enough resources leftover for four new PCs, haha.

In the end it's dialogue, something bioware is supposed to do very well... the plot is what would matter most, but hell, if they focused more on story telling and less on delivering flowers across the hinterlands, I say anything that pushes them in that direction is a giant flashing win.

Plus I want to kill a broodmother in glorious HD, which requires a warden )preferably THE warden) so our characters don't just get corrupted by blood and die.