252 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

That comparison looks kinda not fair IMO. One is a standalone game and the other is an expansion pack. 

If you insist of comparing them wouldn't it be more fair to make comparison like - units sold vs potential customers base ?

 

Potential customers base for:

 

DA:A -> DA:O owners -> 4-5 millions vs ~1 million sold. (1/5 of potential customers bought it)

DA2 -> X360, PS3, PC owners -> tenths of millions vs 2-3 millions sold.

 

So yeah, DA2 outsold DA:A but looking at the potential customers base for both games that proves nothing.

 

All that I'm saying is that the HOF's presence alone doesn't necessarily bring out most of the DA:O players out with their wallets because of e.g. lore/etc., so it's not really a great selling point.

 

I'm sure lots of people would buy a new game that happens to have a returning protagonist (see e.g. how the sequel AC2s sold with Ezio) but that's not really a matter of the protagonist. 

[Vault_Tec101]

A - No one here knows the actual numbers behind Bioware's resource costs. Doesn't mean we can't discuss them from a high level view. Implementing stuff costs resources. We can make educated guesses as to what things costs more resources than other things. If we disagree on those points, we come to impasse on it. So be it.

 

1) You have reiterated my point. That we will come to this impasse without solid figures when discussing a topic that demands it.

 

C and F are not arguments against bringing the Warden back. They are arguments not to use the fairness argument, regardless of what side you're on.

 

Yes and that is my point, what of it?

As I said they are arguments not for one particular side but for both thus "returning us to the origin".

"I will reiterate what I said earlier mainly; the above examples can be used for both sides of the debate thus neither said gaining favour and returning us to the origin."

 

D and E are straw men. No one argued that compromise is never an option. It was argued that the compromise is not always beneficial for some involved, or in some cases no one involved benefits. And for this case specifically, those who don't want the Warden back would not get anything from a compromise.

 

No, no one did argue that compromise is never an option. As for the accusation of making straw men continue reading and see 2). As for E: "Why should Bioware give this particular position compromise compared to the millions of other requests for feature x, y, or z which they ignore on a day to day basis?" (iI Div, #160, pg.7) Implying not only that my that my position is on equal standing with x,y,z but if it is that the consequences of Bioware accepting my compromise would be that they would now have to accept the millions of others.

 

I will state what you said and I will hope to show that it leads to D. "So, I agree with Alan and IlDivo. If there is something I don't care for, and it could cost resources that could go into something else, than I might argue against it."  (Zatche, #167, pg.7) An argument made by others.

 

Case I) There exists something that you don't care for and that it costs zero resources.

 

An absurd position.

 

Case II) There exists something that you don't care for and it costs X resources. 

 

But there is always something you do care for and that X may go into that. So you must argue against any effort that goes into the above Case.

D) now follows.

 

 

Since we don't know what Bioware wants to do with the next installment, let's try to imagine if they tried to allow the HoF to be an optional protagonist for DAI. Regardless of whether you liked the story about a unintentional religious figure with themes about faith, the faithful, and power, that was the story Bioware wanted to tell. So, with regards to plots structure and narrative themes, how would the HoF fit into being cast as Herald of Andraste? Would people still distrust him/her and accuse them of murdering the Divine? Would all the relationships between the PC and all the characters still makes sense? How much would BioWare have to add to the word budget to accommodate different types of relationships (one for HoF and one for new PC) for each companion and advisor some of the NPCs. Would the amount of support from which factions that the Inquisition receives still make sense? Are any of these divergences interesting enough to support the cost of implementing them?

 

That is unfair. You ask me how the HoF would fit into a game that was made entirely for another character! I ask you how would Sandal fit as the PC in DA:I? What of Hawke? Or any other character, including those in the future. Is that an argument against those characters being the PC? And further I see no reason why those themes you listed somehow exclude the HoF.

 

But let's suppose what you are inferring, if I am reading you correctly, that a compromise is a poor choice. Then once again I, for the third time, state the following: which side should we head towards and why?²

 

2) Though I welcome new voices into a discussion I recommend you review what was already discussed to avoid repetition. However at some point you have to wonder, am I the fool? Is my position poorly described or is the opposition's? Anyway if a point is struck that has already been discussed I hope you will forgive me if I ignore it.

 

Others have mentioned this, but we don't need precise numbers to have a base discussion regarding cost. We might not be able to settle down with exact figures, but everything we want costs resources, hence why we have the zero sum game in the first place. I said we could cite Gaider's insistence that even low costing features when added up lead to a significant cost of resources, though that would require a good bit of digging. 

 

See 1) But let's go with that direction, for now. That is a general statement that may be applied to both arguments, for and against. You must now show that this applies to only my proposition and not yours. Something I reiterate time and time again in vain.

 

²As for the rest of the post I hoped that my post from before this one would be understood. I am not here to discuss what Bioware, or the entire industry for that matter, thinks or will do or what not. Nor did I ever ask Alan "what Bioware should do" (or maybe I did, do you mind quoting my request?) I asked him what he should do (obvious; move in the direction he wants) and answer why. That last word I highlighted, bolded and underlined to no avail. I am looking for reasons why a returning protagonist is not a good idea. To state that "I don't want it" is trivial and known before entering the discussion. I am looking for something along these lines (though I made this point in my post above this and still it goes ignored and the debate returns to where it once was):

 

"Returning PCs are an inherently inferior option to new PCs because..."

"Though returning PCs and new PCs may be equal with each their merit and fault, I think in this particular scenario new PCs would fit better because..."

"Given that world exploration is a goal we agree upon I believe new PCs are better fit to take on this task because...

As well I point to the remarkable example of Dark Souls which achieves this end well."

"Returning PCs are a wonderful idea. Only the Warden is the poorest choice to make because..."

 

Instead I get "because I want it" and A)-F). This, I admit, was the source of much of my contempt and frustration which, having reviewed my posts, I unnecessarily took out on iI Divo and for that I apologize. 

 

It's not really a matter of my position being better than yours as much as circumstances have been laid such that I happen to be on the same side as Bioware, much like how I'm on the opposite end regarding romances. 

 

I see, so my efforts were entirely in vain. I thought other wise including for my own position. No wonder the discussion went into the direction of resources and consumers' role in the market place. Let us be content then to rest the issue here.

[AlanC9]

I think that people need to answer this.: would you buy a product that involved the warden as PC.
Simple answer YES.
cause you still want to experience Lore of dragon age

Yes, but so what?

Bringing back the Warden wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me in itself-- there is a level of character assassination that I wouldn't put up with, but I think the probability of Bio botching it that badly isn't very high. This doesn't mean that I think this is the best design approach, though.

[AlanC9]

I do, I merely said that it can be somewhat misleading (least of all because it presumes your gain is equal to my loss) as in my past experience with discussions of zero sum games the unaware perception (even my own at some times) is that it is 'even', 'no body really wins', or '******-for-tat' scenario. I don't know why it's blocked, the word is T then I then T.

English slang for "breast."

Zero-sum game has nothing whatsoever to do with who wins or doesn't win; it has to do with one side's gains being equal losses for the other side. Which means that, yes, I was using the term in an extremely sloppy fashion there, since we don't have any principled way to establish our respective values for the possible outcomes. I should be ashamed of myself.
 

The argument seems to be heading in circles with no end in sight. I already said if we are to debate 'resources' we need a financial analysis of the company in question. Both you and I may hand wave and proclaim the opposition would be more costly, without numbers (which by the way you said could be cited, I will note this is the third time I am asking for said citations). With that being said I think it time to end it with some closing remarks.

More costly than what? Again, I was only talking about costs in the context of the compromise proposal to add a Warden option on top of the option to play a new PC. If you want to drop the compromise and just discuss new-PC-vs.-Warden, I'll certainly stipulate that costs aren't relevant. Note that would be a multiple-round comparison since we now have three PCs eligible to return, though I think it's fairly likely the Warden would come out of that with a plurality.
 
So that removes A) below
 

A) Too many resources (Which statistics are you citing? I would like to very much review your comparison for and against)
B ) I don't want it (That's fair but I don't want what you want)
C) Someone is going to be disappointed (as opposed to now where the opposition is already disappointed?)
D) It's my job to absolutely decline compromise and push for my wish. Full stop.
E) If we compromise (or listen to) here why don't we compromise to any other view for that matter? The millions out there? (Perhaps alluding to a slippery slope? I am not too sure). 

I'm all about the B here. C isn't my problem, D is silly rhetoric, and I'm not even sure what E is supposed to mean. Unless it's about Bio setting a bad precedent for itself? I suppose I'd be worried about that if I saw it as a serious possibility.
 
And F is just you being confused.
 

F) It's Bioware's job not mine, why should I answer?

It's Bio's job to sort out competing desires among the fanbase; why would it be ours? I'm interested in why you want what you want -- I'm interested in design issues in general -- but I don't see how or why this would have any impact on my own desires for the series. And I figured that works both ways., which is why I didn't bother getting into reasons.

 I'm certainly willing to play our reason cards here, as long as we agree there's nothing at stake.

 

One more thing: where does this end? Let's say Bio changes their minds and brings back the Warden for DA4. Do we end up having the same argument about DA5 in a few years?

[Sidney]

Yes, but so what?
Bringing back the Warden wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me in itself-- there is a level of character assassination that I wouldn't put up with, but I think the probability of Bio botching it that badly isn't very high. This doesn't mean that I think this is the best design approach, though.

What scenario could they put him in that would be any different than what they put Generic Hero X into? His character was distinct because of the plot he was in.

Imagine that they decided that the HOF would be at the conclave when it blew up be he got the anchor stuck in his hand. Now play the game out from there, does anything meaningful change in the game?

[Il Divo]

See 1) But let's go with that direction, for now. That is a general statement that may be applied to both arguments, for and against. You must now show that this applies to only my proposition and not yours. Something I reiterate time and time again in vain.

 

 

Good point. If we were comparing say Warden + import vs. no Warden and forced canon, that might be a  point in favor of a new protagonist. But as it stands since we get imports no matter what, the Warden vs. a new protagonist is not likely to result in any significant resource differences as I can see it.

 

It's mainly in the realm of "let's try to do both" that this becomes more problematic due to the potential for overexertion. 

 

²As for the rest of the post I hoped that my post from before this one would be understood. I am not here to discuss what Bioware, or the entire industry for that matter, thinks or will do or what not. Nor did I ever ask Alan "what Bioware should do" (or maybe I did, do you mind quoting my request?) I asked him what he should do (obvious; move in the direction he wants) and answer why. That last word I highlighted, bolded and underlined to no avail. I am looking for reasons why a returning protagonist is not a good idea. To state that "I don't want it" is trivial and known before entering the discussion. I am looking for something along these lines (though I made this point in my post above this and still it goes ignored and the debate returns to where it once was):

 

 

In that respect, there's not likely much I could offer that wouldn't be related to personal preference. Though I do think that Bioware's own lack of interest, for whatever reason, could be a significant factor in this regard. At least in the sense that, maybe Bioware were willing to do this even at the expense of their own creative interests, the end result could end badly.

 

In essence, take for example what happened when Harrison Ford was required to add the voiceovers for Bladerunner, which he really didn't want to do. Obviously nowhere near a guarantee of bad quality, but I suspect writers operate a bit better when professionally interested. 

 

Instead I get "because I want it" and A)-F). This, I admit, was the source of much of my contempt and frustration which, having reviewed my posts, I unnecessarily took out on iI Divo and for that I apologize. 

 

 

No worries. 

[sleeping heart]

All that I'm saying is that the HOF's presence alone doesn't necessarily bring out most of the DA:O players out with their wallets because of e.g. lore/etc., so it's not really a great selling point.

 

I'm sure lots of people would buy a new game that happens to have a returning protagonist (see e.g. how the sequel AC2s sold with Ezio) but that's not really a matter of the protagonist. 

But did the figure you looked at also take into account Ultimate Edition sales?.

 

just wondering.

[In Exile]

What scenario could they put him in that would be any different than what they put Generic Hero X into? His character was distinct because of the plot he was in.

Imagine that they decided that the HOF would be at the conclave when it blew up be he got the anchor stuck in his hand. Now play the game out from there, does anything meaningful change in the game?

 

Well, yes. At minimum you have the returning characters varying complicated and soap-opera-like romantic subplots that everyone will want to deal with, and the complicated baggage that Bioware then has to address about gaps in characters history as a result of this sort of move. 

[sleeping heart]

What scenario could they put him in that would be any different than what they put Generic Hero X into? His character was distinct because of the plot he was in.

Imagine that they decided that the HOF would be at the conclave when it blew up be he got the anchor stuck in his hand. Now play the game out from there, does anything meaningful change in the game?

 

Off hand:

 

1) Depending on your character, your Warden could be one of the most powerful mages in Thedas. might be he would be able to find another method of closing the rifts outside of the Anchor.

 

2)  The warden is a master of the Taint thanks to Wardens Keep DLC and can weaponize the taint against Corypheus. and possibly track him.

 

3) You have access to Avernus' research on the taint and Demonic lore.

 

"Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power." 

 

If the HoF was the PC of DA:I the subjects of Wardens keep could have been further explored and said subjects where interesting as all hell.

 

4) Control: The HoF could be a blood mage depending on your character. and we could explore and use Blood magic to alter and control the minds of Nobles in Orlais to add support. which would just be fun and amusing.

 

In essence. The HoF has gained the tools to be extremely effective for handling the breach and dealing with Corypheus. i've said this before, but i do feel that the HoF would have actually fit better in this game than the Inquisitor did. Unfortunately, we never really got to use those tools on a meaningful scale. They added alot of interesting content to DA:O that was never really expanded upon, that's one of the things that really did disappoint me.

 

Bioware did this to themselves tho. They made the story related to HoF 100x more interesting than the story related to Hawke or the Inquisitor. and that is one of the main reasons people want him/her back, because the subjects tied to him where fascinating and people want to know more.

[Saphiron123]

Off hand:

1) Depending on your character, your Warden could be one of the most power mages in Thedas. might be he would be able to find another method of closing the rifts outside of the Anchor.

2) The warden is a master of the Taint thanks to Wardens Keep DLC and can weaponize the taint against Corypheus. and possibly track him.

3) You have accesses to Avernus' research on the taint and Demonic lore.

"Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power."

If the HoF was the PC of DA:I the subjects of Wardens keep could have been further explored and said subjects where interesting as all hell.

4) Control: The HoF could be a blood mage depending on your character. and we could explore and use Blood magic to alter and control the minds of Nobles in Orlais to add support. which would just be fun and amusing.

In essence. The HoF has gained the tools to be extremely effective for handling the breach and dealing with Corypheus. i've said this before, but i do feel that the HoF would have actually fit better in this game than the Inquisitor did. Unfortunately, we never really got to use those tools on a meaningful scale. They added alot of interesting content to DA:O that was never really expanded upon, that's one of the things that really did disappoint me.

Bioware did this to themselves tho. They made the story related to HoF 100x more interesting than the story related to Hawke or the Inquisitor. and that is one of the main reasons people want him/her back, because the subjects tied to him where fascinating and people want to know more.

This. Plus, I want to take on the other magisters, maybe that's just me but that means a warden, and if I'm investigating the calling avernus and the architect would make for some very intersting cameos (moreso if they already know me and remember my choices - did I keep avernus on a leash or let him experiment freely, if the architect is dead or has resurrected like Cory, how will that affect my mission? An angry architect and one you had a former alliance with could include some great scenarios).

I mean people say it would take too many resources to have hero specific warden dialogue, but really, how much unnessicary exposition is used to tell new pcs about every facet of our past decisions?

[Saphiron123]

I really wish bioware would read this thread, there are some really smart and interesting ideas here beyond the ones listed in the original post.

[Zatche]

That is unfair. You ask me how the HoF would fit into a game that was made entirely for another character! I ask you how would Sandal fit as the PC in DA:I? What of Hawke? Or any other character, including those in the future. Is that an argument against those characters being the PC? And further I see no reason why those themes you listed somehow exclude the HoF.

The questions are rhetorical. I think Bioware should could come up with the story first, and the PC should be made to fit into it, which is what they seem to have done with DAI. Since I don't know what the next story is, I'm using Inquisition as an example to illustrate how it can be problematic to (1) do it the other way around, fit the story you want to tell to an already established character, and (2) do so in such away that the HoF is one of two options. (1) is a problem of focus: The HoF doesn't necessarily contradict the religious figure angle, but to me, it would be a distracting convolution added on top of it. And (2), again is resources spent on a divergence in plot I don't find particularly interesting.

 

I am looking for reasons why a returning protagonist is not a good idea. To state that "I don't want it" is trivial and known before entering the discussion. I am looking for something along these lines (though I made this point in my post above this and still it goes ignored and the debate returns to where it once was):

"Returning PCs are an inherently inferior option to new PCs because..."
"Though returning PCs and new PCs may be equal with each their merit and fault, I think in this particular scenario new PCs would fit better because..."
"Given that world exploration is a goal we agree upon I believe new PCs are better fit to take on this task because...
As well I point to the remarkable example of Dark Souls which achieves this end well."
"Returning PCs are a wonderful idea. Only the Warden is the poorest choice to make because..."

This will fall towards preference for each individual, but I'll go with the second option, and focus on the idea that we are only arguing the merits of using the HoF as the next PC, as opposed to him/her just being an option.

As stated above, I'd rather Bioware focus on the story and its themes first. I want them to find something they are inspired by first, and create the new PC around it, rather than the other way around. This isn't always the case with sequels. In Mass Effect, it made sense that Shepard was used again, because the way ME1 ended left it open to continue the story around Shepard's struggle against the Reapers, a conflict left unresolved. (And in an ideal world, Bioware would have thought farther ahead about what was in store for Shepard in 2 and 3 when they left the Reaper threat..and origin...unresolved). But I did not feel this way about Origins or Awakening.

And, as others have said, I don't want the next game to contradict how I role-played my Warden in Origins.

[AlanC9]

What scenario could they put him in that would be any different than what they put Generic Hero X into? His character was distinct because of the plot he was in.
Imagine that they decided that the HOF would be at the conclave when it blew up be he got the anchor stuck in his hand. Now play the game out from there, does anything meaningful change in the game?

Probably not the plot itself. You'd need different NPC dialogues, depending on how good an implementation you want. This is why I've been telling people that the crappy implementation is the way to go

The proposal that's kicking around is to make the next game all about the Calling, but that strikes me as essentially a pretext for making the Warden be the PC.

[In Exile]

Probably not. You'd need some different NPC dialogues, depending on how good an implementation you want.

The proposal that's kicking around is to make the next game all about the Calling, but that strikes me as essentially a pretext for making the Warden be the PC.

 

More notably, that's not an interesting game. There's nothing particularly notable about the calling besides the Warden's debt for turning themselves into ghouls coming due. 

[Il Divo]

I mean people say it would take too many resources to have hero specific warden dialogue, but really, how much unnessicary exposition is used to tell new pcs about every facet of our past decisions?

 

Well, to start, you're going to run into opposition from each pro-Warden fan who wants their respective love interest to be at the forefront of the adventure. Origins gave us : Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, and Morrigano so they'll likely want all those characters as companions. Now toss on top the need to create new romances for the new protagonist and that might very well account for all the companion characters which Bioware can manage (as they themselves pointed out during the ME3 extended cut, cut-scenes are not cheap).

 

Of course, we could say Bioware can simply hand wave all those party members away, but you'll probably find yourself now facing opposition from certain pro-Warden players who might have supported you otherwise. 

 

And that's just in regards to romance content resources. 

[Saphiron123]

More notably, that's not an interesting game. There's nothing particularly notable about the calling besides the Warden's debt for turning themselves into ghouls coming due.

The calling is tied to the remaining twin archdemons who control darkspawn and are tied to the magisters which are tied to the blights... So, pretty much the greatest threats to the entire world would be involved with even a slightly competent writer. Avernus could be involved, the architect and his free darkspawn could be involved, likely the deep roads which mean orzimmar and the dwarves, probably the darkspawn home territory which we've never seen to exterminate the sources of said calling... Yes, if you take a single concept in any story it's probably a little dry, but learning what the calling is and trying to stop it at the source would definitely be "notable" to most of us. And it's not just about the calling, it's about the setting.

I know you don't like to agree with me, but that story told right would blow inquisition out of the water, and if the magisters were written as complex and unique antagonists you'd have a seriously awesome pool of opposing characters which is something dragon age really needs right now.

The calling is literally the whispered commands of a corrupted god. If that isn't interesting then goddamn dude, I want to live a life as exciting as yours.

[Saphiron123]

Well, to start, you're going to run into opposition from each pro-Warden fan who wants their respective love interest to be at the forefront of the adventure. Origins gave us : Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, and Morrigano so they'll likely want all those characters as companions. Now toss on top the need to create new romances for the new protagonist and that might very well account for all the companion characters which Bioware can manage (as they themselves pointed out during the ME3 extended cut, cut-scenes are not cheap).

Of course, we could say Bioware can simply hand wave all those party members away, but you'll probably find yourself now facing opposition from certain pro-Warden players who might have supported you otherwise.

And that's just in regards to romance content resources.

Hopefully none of those characters would be shoehorned in, but hopefully the ones who fit the story would make at least a small appearance and we'd get a great, well written and memorable scene with them (eg, it would be a blast to meet leliana, especially if she was divine, if the warden fought her at the urn of sacred ashes - her story about it in DAI was the only really memorable acknowledgement of my past decisions... This is the stuff bioware SHOULD aspire to do, I'm tired of collecting rocks in big empty environments). Treat any guest characters with respect and give them fantastic scenes with great writing and some real emotion, nobody would hate that.

Isn't rich stories, unforgettable characters the tag line for Bioware?

Look at what Rockstar does with tiny details like their unique television programming that half of the player base will never even see, real attention to detail is doable. And it's bioware, stories and characterization are their thing, I think they can do it justice.

And really, even if it's only a short visit, wouldn't it be cool to see what sten or Zevran or shale are doing 10 years later? To have sten's dialogue take into account whether you helped him find his sword and how it affected him (and your relationship with him)? I think it would.

And again, nobody should be shoehorned in. Maybe not everyone makes the cut in the search for the calling, but that's for the writers to decide.

[In Exile]

The calling is tied to the remaining twin archdemons who control darkspawn and are tied to the magisters which are tied to the blights... So, pretty much the greatest threats to the entire world would be involved with even a slightly competent writer. Avernus could be involved, the architect and his free darkspawn could be involved, likely the deep roads which mean orzimmar and the dwarves, probably the darkspawn home territory which we've never seen to exterminate the sources of said calling... Yes, if you take a single concept in any story it's probably a little dry, but learning what the calling is and trying to stop it at the source would definitely be "notable" to most of us. And it's not just about the calling, it's about the setting.

I know you don't like to agree with me, but that story told right would blow inquisition out of the water, and if the magisters were written as complex and unique antagonists you'd have a seriously awesome pool of opposing characters which is something dragon age really needs right now.

The calling is literally the whispered commands of a corrupted god. If that isn't interesting then goddamn dude, I want to live a life as exciting as yours.

The Song of the Old Gods is incredibly fascinating. It's tied to lyrium in some capacity (all lyrium is said to sing rather than just red lyrium). The Calling is not a reference to the Song. It is a specific description of what the Wardens experience when they begin to lose their minds and fall under the influence of the AD. It's the Warden related part of the plot that's entirely uneventful.

I don't disagree that the idea you've put forward is interesting in the abstract. But those things that make it interesting are precisely those things that have 0 connection to the calling, such as the Magisters. The fact they can manipulate the call of the old gods for example isn't a plot point.

So it comes back for me to the fact that the Calling isn't an interesting plot even if you could shoehorn curing it into an interesting plot.

[Saphiron123]

The Song of the Old Gods is incredibly fascinating. It's tied to lyrium in some capacity (all lyrium is said to sing rather than just red lyrium). The Calling is not a reference to the Song. It is a specific description of what the Wardens experience when they begin to lose their minds and fall under the influence of the AD. It's the Warden related part of the plot that's entirely uneventful.

I don't disagree that the idea you've put forward is interesting in the abstract. But those things that make it interesting are precisely those things that have 0 connection to the calling, such as the Magisters. The fact they can manipulate the call of the old gods for example isn't a plot point.

So it comes back for me to the fact that the Calling isn't an interesting plot even if you could shoehorn curing it into an interesting plot.

The magisters were the original darkspawn, the source of the corruption that makes the archdemons what they are, and the ADs in turn create the calling and use it to organize the darkspawn horde... They're absolutely connected. Do they do it at the magisters' command? Are the magisters slaves as well? I for one would like to know what it's all about. Plus the architect, who is rediculously similar to corypheus and possibly a magister himself, is one of the greatest experts on the calling.

I honestly don't understand how you can separate the most basic element, trying to prevent your character's certain death or insanity due to the influence of corrupted gods, from the setting it'd bring with it - the story of finding and stopping it's ultimate source and seeing the world that surrounds it all.

By your logic, no story could ever be interesting. Half the games out there would be someone trying to meet a girl or live a happy life or achieve some minor goal, and the fact they get drawn into a bigger more complex story as a consequence would be irrelevant.

Searching for the source of the calling in the hands of skilled writers could be an AMAZING story filled with great characters, dangerous enemies, loss, and tons of new lore about the darkspawn and the first darkspawn like corypheus, the archdemons and the blight itself.

Maybe the warden trying not to die a horrible death or lose their mind seems dull to you, but that's just the beginning of a story that could lead in a million directions. Like the start of any story, and it's understandable motivation for any character (unless they're super suicidal and depressed I guess, but a character like that wouldn't have beaten the archdemon anyway). I honestly don't understand how that motivation means the story would suck. And I'd argue many would see one of their heroes in such a position would make that motivation very interesting to role play and offer the devs an incredible opportunity for well written drama and urgency.

Sure as hell beats delivering flowers in the hinterlands for a guy you don't even have to talk to a second time to finish the quest.

[dsl08002]

Yes, but so what?
Bringing back the Warden wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me in itself-- there is a level of character assassination that I wouldn't put up with, but I think the probability of Bio botching it that badly isn't very high. This doesn't mean that I think this is the best design approach, though.

That is my point

People shout, " i dont like the warden, bioware will ruin my warden, its not possible to bring the warden back"

When all comes down to it you would still BUY the product regardless.

[Sidney]

Off hand:
 
1) Depending on your character, your Warden could be one of the most powerful mages in Thedas. might be he would be able to find another method of closing the rifts outside of the Anchor.
 
2)  The warden is a master of the Taint thanks to Wardens Keep DLC and can weaponize the taint against Corypheus. and possibly track him.
 
3) You have access to Avernus' research on the taint and Demonic lore.
 
"Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power." 
 
If the HoF was the PC of DA:I the subjects of Wardens keep could have been further explored and said subjects where interesting as all hell.
 
4) Control: The HoF could be a blood mage depending on your character. and we could explore and use Blood magic to alter and control the minds of Nobles in Orlais to add support. which would just be fun and amusing.
 
In essence. The HoF has gained the tools to be extremely effective for handling the breach and dealing with Corypheus. i've said this before, but i do feel that the HoF would have actually fit better in this game than the Inquisitor did. Unfortunately, we never really got to use those tools on a meaningful scale. They added alot of interesting content to DA:O that was never really expanded upon, that's one of the things that really did disappoint me.
 
Bioware did this to themselves tho. They made the story related to HoF 100x more interesting than the story related to Hawke or the Inquisitor. and that is one of the main reasons people want him/her back, because the subjects tied to him where fascinating and people want to know more.

1. My warden not a Mage. Many others in the same state. So that doesn't matter.
2. Not everyone has Warden's Keep
3. See 2
4. Again, now you are saying all the issues of 1 but an even smaller subset.

Not to mention dead for the Warden remains a problem. Face it, while you might dream up lots of fanciful scenarios (I could do the same with Hawke) where it is interesting the actual practicalities of trying to make It fit well enough to accommodate the majority of players Wardens - let alone all- means that you would wind up with the same basic generic story.

[Il Divo]

1. My warden not a Mage. Many others in the same state. So that doesn't matter.
2. Not everyone has Warden's Keep
3. See 2
4. Again, now you are saying all the issues of 1 but an even smaller subset.

Not to mention dead for the Warden remains a problem. Face it, while you might dream up lots of fanciful scenarios (I could do the same with Hawke) where it is interesting the actual practicalities of trying to make It fit well enough to accommodate the majority of players Wardens - let alone all- means that you would wind up with the same basic generic story.

 

Not to mention too that the reason Bioware never added Blood Mage to begin with is that they didn't think they had the time/resources to do it right. As it is, Blood Mage in DA:O and DA2 had crap all to do with the central story. I can't really say I ever felt like my Warden was a Blood Mage outside of combat.

[KaiserShep]

Not to mention too that the reason Bioware never added Blood Mage to begin with is that they didn't think they had the time/resources to do it right. As it is, Blood Mage in DA:O and DA2 had crap all to do with the central story. I can't really say I ever felt like my Warden was a Blood Mage outside of combat.

 

You gotta love how Wynne is a snitching a-hole in the cut scene in Origins though. Like sure, let's just show our gratitude to the Grey Warden that saved us all by trying to kill him! lol

 

 

But I can see this easily making the entire story fly off the rails. If the rest of the game followed this sort of reaction, the Warden would basically fail the moment that spec is unlocked.

[Il Divo]

You gotta love how Wynne is a snitching a-hole in the cut scene in Origins though. Like sure, let's just show our gratitude to the Grey Warden that saved us all by trying to kill him! lol

 

 

But I can see this easily making the entire story fly off the rails. If the rest of the game followed this sort of reaction, the Warden would basically fail the moment that spec is unlocked.

 

Thinking about it too, I suspect a lot of what's being cast in favor of a Warden protagonist for DA:I probably would have worked much better with Hawke in that role, given some of the reasons put forth. Hawke can also be a Blood Mage, not to mention being directly responsible for freeing Corypheus, which DA:I shows him to regret heavily. Like the Warden, he was obviously an Inquisitor candidate. He also was the one directly at the heart of the Mage-Templar conflict and to some extent, Exalted March had some resemblance to DA:I in its current form.

 

In other respects, he also has an established voice actor and isn't potentially dead at the end of the story.