36 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I've always wondered. Other forms of magic are obvious, fire burns, electricity also burns and causes muscle damage, freeze causes frostbite and also burns (again) due to the same concept as freezer burn, nature damage looks like poison... But what does spirit do to your enemies? It seems to do just whatever the hell Bioware wants it to do. Sometimes it cuts you like a blade, sometimes it crushes you, sometimes it hits you with a shockwave from an exploded enemy, sometimes it causes your blood to literally boil in the case of blood magic spells, sometimes it makes the mana in a mages body to become deadly to the mage for things like the old spirit clash power (and some Templar abilities even). And goodness knows what simple things like spirit bolt do, since it just seems to fizzle out when it hits an enemy.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of bodily harm spirit damage actually DOES, because right now it seems to be a very broad category that is pretty much just the go-to element when you want a spell to do something magic-y that doesn't have a defined element.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Lowers morale? Get it? *wink wink* Spirit - Morale.....?

Eh, whatever. You people are lame.

It's raining.

[dragonflight288]

It's really powerful in the necromancy field. Walking Bomb and Death's Mark do constant damage, oftentimes more than what my staff does. Most enemies don't have resistances to spirit damage, so I'm regularly doing hundreds of points of damage. 

 

Death's Mark, if the damage is still in effect when the victim dies, is reborn to fight for you, which created a bug with Dorian until a recent patch fixed it. 

 

Walking Bomb led to a huge explosion, and if upgraded, spreads the spell to other enemies and ends up doing massive damage as well. 

[legbamel]

It swallows your soul.

Spoiler

[caradoc2000]

Everyone knows that spirits are quite damaging to health.

[andy6915]

It's really powerful in the necromancy field. Walking Bomb and Death's Mark do constant damage, oftentimes more than what my staff does. Most enemies don't have resistances to spirit damage, so I'm regularly doing hundreds of points of damage. 

 

Death's Mark, if the damage is still in effect when the victim dies, is reborn to fight for you, which created a bug with Dorian until a recent patch fixed it. 

 

Walking Bomb led to a huge explosion, and if upgraded, spreads the spell to other enemies and ends up doing massive damage as well. 

 

I mean from a lore perspective. Like death's mark, what exactly is it doing to their body that is causing the kind of trauma needed to injure and kill people and demons? What would the wounds look like to someone who examined their corpses to determine cause of death. what did it do that actually killed them?

[PapaCharlie9]

I mean from a lore perspective. 

I've always thought of spirit damage as a kind of physical damage, but one that can't be blocked by armor. So it is kind of like elemental damage and kind of like regular old damage damage. Telekinetic damage with phasing.

 

Case in point: Stonefist. "You summon a boulder from the Fade and smash it into " Coryfishes face, for spirit damage. The look and feel is physical, but the effect still acts like elemental. Same with Spirit Blade.

[dragonflight288]

I mean from a lore perspective. Like death's mark, what exactly is it doing to their body that is causing the kind of trauma needed to injure and kill people and demons? What would the wounds look like to someone who examined their corpses to determine cause of death. what did it do that actually killed them?

 

The skill description of Death's Mark is that the Necromancer summons a spirit who does constant damage to the person, and if the person dies while the spirit is attached to him, that spirit takes his form and fights on for you, and it's not really the person or his body that is fighting. 

 

As for the wounds, I imagine it would depend on the spirit and demon. A rage demon will likely leave burns and claw marks, while a pride demon will leave contusions, smashed limbs and whatever magical side effects they produce, like electrical burns. 

[andy6915]

I've always thought of spirit damage as a kind of physical damage, but one that can't be blocked by armor. So it is kind of like elemental damage and kind of like regular old damage damage. Telekinetic damage with phasing.

 

Case in point: Stonefist. "You summon a boulder from the Fade and smash it into " Coryfishes face, for spirit damage. The look and feel is physical, but the effect still acts like elemental. Same with Spirit Blade.

 

Okay, what about some of the weirder examples? Like how it can dispel magic and hurt mages by turning their own mana against them? Or even just the basic attacks, what kind of bodily trauma do the basic shots do they you fire out of your staff? They're certainly not going fast enough to hit with enough velocity to cause that much harm.

[dragonflight288]

Okay, what about some of the weirder examples? Like how it can dispel magic and hurt mages by turning their own mana against them? Or even just the basic attacks, what kind of bodily trauma do the basic shots do they you fire out of your staff? They're certainly not going fast enough to hit with enough velocity to cause that much harm.

 

Since all mages draw on power from the fade itself, I imagine, since spirit magic is in essence using the natural energies of the Fade rather than the source for other effects like fire or lightning, is the act of disrupting the flow of magic, and thus disrupts the spell itself, and thus causing damage to the mage because it's like cutting off a piece of his or herself. 

 

The overall affect of someone killed with Mana Clash may actually be like looking at a dead tranquil, completely cut off from the fade or something like that. I don't know, but it's fun to think about. 

 

As for mana shots, I guess it would leave mana burn or something. 

[ShadowLordXII]

Deals more direct and pronounced damage to someone's soul and connected lifeforce?

 

Something akin to a severe internal wound that takes longer to recover from and debilitates you more than an external wound would.

[Statare]

The only three spells in DAI that work similarly to Spirit/Entropy spells from passed DA games are Walking Bomb, Death's Mark, and an upgraded Horror with the damage over time. Spirit Blade and Stonefist probably deal spirit damage for game mechanic reasons.

 

Back when Spirit/Entropy were their own schools, Spirit damage was opposed to the Primal damages (fire, nature, electrical, cold, physical even) and Primal magic was said to be also called the school of "Nature" so reflective of aspects of the physical world. As I understood it, Spirit, being the opposite of Primal, was caused by the pure, unadulterated energy of the Fade. It was esoteric and related to the fabric and properties of the Fade, and not how the Fade reflects the physical world. But since Origins, the schools of magic has changed a lot. You can still read the codexes on the schools of magic on the Wiki.

[PapaCharlie9]

Okay, what about some of the weirder examples? Like how it can dispel magic and hurt mages by turning their own mana against them? Or even just the basic attacks, what kind of bodily trauma do the basic shots do they you fire out of your staff? They're certainly not going fast enough to hit with enough velocity to cause that much harm.

Aha! Just because it is in the spirit tree doesn't mean it does spirit damage. Dispel doesn't say anything about doing spirit damage. Nor does Mind Blast.

 

For basic attacks, I hadn't thought it about it. Slow in the real world, fast in the Fade maybe? Also what @dragonflight288 said.

[andy6915]

Since all mages draw on power from the fade itself, I imagine, since spirit magic is in essence using the natural energies of the Fade rather than the source for other effects like fire or lightning, is the act of disrupting the flow of magic, and thus disrupts the spell itself, and thus causing damage to the mage because it's like cutting off a piece of his or herself. 

 

The overall affect of someone killed with Mana Clash may actually be like looking at a dead tranquil, completely cut off from the fade or something like that. I don't know, but it's fun to think about. 

 

As for mana shots, I guess it would leave mana burn or something. 

 

Okay, good explanation on mana clash. And not just it, Templar abilities do basically the same thing... Ever notice how many Templar powers are like crappy versions of a lot of spirit spells? Anyway, what in the world is a "mana burn"? Sounds like even you're at a loss on that one.

 

Is there nothing in the World of Thedas book or in Word of God posts that have anything to say about spirit magic?

[andy6915]

Deals more direct and pronounced damage to someone's soul and connected lifeforce?

 

Something akin to a severe internal wound that takes longer to recover from and debilitates you more than an external wound would.

I like that, I like that a lot. Berserk (a really good manga everyone should check out) actually has the main character suffer a giant wound on his soul after fighting with an extremely powerful and god-like demon, the wound itself being invisible to all but the magic user of the team. It damn near killed him, and the witch even mentioned how he shouldn't even be able to stand with such a wound. If the basic shots do that... Oh, I really like this explanation!

 

 

Dispel doesn't say anything about doing spirit damage.

 

Yeah it does.

 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Transmutation

[dragonflight288]

Okay, good explanation on mana clash. And not just it, Templar abilities do basically the same thing... Ever notice how many Templar powers are like crappy versions of a lot of spirit spells? Anyway, what in the world is a "mana burn"? Sounds like even you're at a loss on that one.

 

Is there nothing in the World of Thedas book or in Word of God posts that have anything to say about spirit magic?

 

I actually had created a whole theory on that and what I just said is based on that theory I made. 

 

Which actually came down to this. Templars, in order to gain their powers, must imbibe lyrium. Now lyrium is pretty much concentrated magic as an ore and provides a connection to the Fade. Cole will talk about how Varric and Cullen feel similar to each other and can't be heard, Varric because he's a dwarf and Cole will say the same thing about a dwarven Inquisitor and Cullen because he's a templar, and Cole will talk about it to an Inquisitor who becomes a templar. 

 

I theorize that lyrium, the regular blue stuff, grants a connection to the Fade itself, and since dwarves don't dream in the Fade like everyone else, resist its effects. By imbibing it, the templar is in essence taking in part of the fade into themselves, and can to a limited degree use spells, although as Alistair says in Origins, the Chantry doesn't look on it the same way because templars need lyrium for their abilities and it doesn't come naturally to them (and then he proceeds to question even that.)

 

Because of the lyrium in their veins, a templar has an artificial and limited stepping stone into tapping into the power of the Fade and spirit magic. 

 

I think this theory has some merit and can be backed by Cassandra pointing out that both mages and templars can be influenced by her powers and that she can set the lyrium inside their blood aflame, and in order to get these abilities a Seeker is made tranquil and then cured of it with a spirit of Faith, so Seekers in turn have a constant connection to the Fade. 

 

And since they can influence lyrium, that means lyrium is connected to the Fade. 

[andy6915]

I actually had created a whole theory on that and what I just said is based on that theory I made. 

 

Which actually came down to this. Templars, in order to gain their powers, must imbibe lyrium. Now lyrium is pretty much concentrated magic as an ore and provides a connection to the Fade. Cole will talk about how Varric and Cullen feel similar to each other and can't be heard, Varric because he's a dwarf and Cole will say the same thing about a dwarven Inquisitor and Cullen because he's a templar, and Cole will talk about it to an Inquisitor who becomes a templar. 

 

I theorize that lyrium, the regular blue stuff, grants a connection to the Fade itself, and since dwarves don't dream in the Fade like everyone else, resist its effects. By imbibing it, the templar is in essence taking in part of the fade into themselves, and can to a limited degree use spells, although as Alistair says in Origins, the Chantry doesn't look on it the same way because templars need lyrium for their abilities and it doesn't come naturally to them (and then he proceeds to question even that.)

 

Because of the lyrium in their veins, a templar has an artificial and limited stepping stone into tapping into the power of the Fade and spirit magic. 

 

I think this theory has some merit and can be backed by Cassandra pointing out that both mages and templars can be influenced by her powers and that she can set the lyrium inside their blood aflame, and in order to get these abilities a Seeker is made tranquil and then cured of it with a spirit of Faith, so Seekers in turn have a constant connection to the Fade. 

 

And since they can influence lyrium, that means lyrium is connected to the Fade. 

 

I know, pretty much thought of all of that myself. Templars are just non-mages that are drinking a substance that gives them some magical ability. Reavers do the same thing, they're to the blood magic school as Templars are to the spirit school. It's like red sand from Mass Effect, it gives temporary biotic abilities to non-biotics. Thing is, none of those examples make you as good as the real thing. No Templar's abilities will be as good as a spirit mage's, no reavers magical abilities will match a blood mages, and no red sand addict will match a true biotic.

[PapaCharlie9]

I like that, I like that a lot. Berserk (a really good manga everyone should check out) actually has the main character suffer a giant wound on his soul after fighting with an extremely powerful and god-like demon, the wound itself being invisible to all but the magic user of the team. It damn near killed him, and the witch even mentioned how he shouldn't even be able to stand with such a wound. If the basic shots do that... Oh, I really like this explanation!

 

 

Yeah it does.

 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Transmutation

No fair referencing DA:2. I never played it.

[dragonflight288]

I know, pretty much thought of all of that myself. Templars are just non-mages that are drinking a substance that gives them some magical ability. Reavers do the same thing, they're to the blood magic school as Templars are to the spirit school. It's like red sand from Mass Effect, it gives temporary biotic abilities to non-biotics. Thing is, none of those examples make you as good as the real thing. No Templar's abilities will be as good as a spirit mage's, no reavers magical abilities will match a blood mages, and no red sand addict will match a true biotic.

 

Well, what Reavers are doing is quite similar to what Grey Wardens do. 

 

They use a blood magic ritual to transform them and give them new abilities. Wardens use darkspawn blood and a drop of an archdemon and reavers use pure dragon's blood. 

 

It's true none of them are as good as the real thing, but a highly skilled warrior who knows how to fight mages with their own abilities amplified by the taint (Grey Warden), dragon's blood (Reavers) or lyrium (templar) are still very fierce opponents. 

 

Especially since most mages don't involve themselves with combat training.

[andy6915]

To continue about that one theory I really liked, about it doing damage directly to your soul... Does that mean someone killed by spirit damage actually gets their soul destroyed, and thus can't move onto the afterlife? Because if so, that makes it the most evil form of magic in Thedas. And no one even realizes it. Makes my friendly paragon mages who specialized in spirit made into some very evil characters without even knowing it. They don't just kill you, they kill your very soul. Don't expect to sit at the Maker's side if you're killed with that.
 
Again, assuming it's true. Maybe once the soul takes enough damage the body dies but their soul limps onward, still alive.

Well, what Reavers are doing is quite similar to what Grey Wardens do.

They use a blood magic ritual to transform them and give them new abilities. Wardens use darkspawn blood and a drop of an archdemon and reavers use pure dragon's blood.

It's true none of them are as good as the real thing, but a highly skilled warrior who knows how to fight mages with their own abilities amplified by the taint (Grey Warden), dragon's blood (Reavers) or lyrium (templar) are still very fierce opponents.

Especially since most mages don't involve themselves with combat training.

Fully true. Combat expertise is a good equalizer.

[Statare]

Here I'll quote the codex about Spirit, the school:

 

The first of the two Schools of Energy, Spirit is opposed by the Primal School. It is the school of mystery, the ephemeral school. This is the study of the invisible energies which surround us at all times, yet are outside of nature. It is from the Fade itself that this magic draws its power. Students of this school cover everything from direct manipulation of mana and spell energies to the study and summoning of spirits themselves.

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.

--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

To me that says when you deal Spirit Damage to someone you are damaging them on the level at which all living creatures are connected to the Fade. So you're probably literally damaging their Spirit if we imagine that as not their Soul but their connection to the Fade. This makes sense if you imagine what happens when a Mage is exposed to pure Lyrium: they die, or in controlled circumstances, are made tranquil.

 

This also explains why Dwarves are resistant even to Spirit damage, where as magical creatures like Dragons tend to be vulnerable to it.

[dragonflight288]

To continue about that one theory I really liked, about it doing damage directly to your soul... Does that mean someone killed by spirit damage actually gets their soul destroyed, and thus can't move onto the afterlife? Because if so, that makes it the most evil form of magic in Thedas. And no one even realizes it. Makes my friendly paragon mages who specialized in spirit made into some very evil characters without even knowing it. They don't just kill you, they kill your very soul. Don't expect to sit at the Maker's side if you're killed with that.

 

Again, assuming it's true. Maybe once the soul takes enough damage the body dies but their soul limps onward, still alive.

 

You know, that may very well be a possibility. 

 

Or if it cuts off someone's spirit from the Fade, you are not destroying their soul but denying them access to the afterlife because all souls pass through the Fade once they die, even Spirits know this. (Justice, Origins.)

[andy6915]

Here I'll quote the codex about Spirit, the school:
 
The first of the two Schools of Energy, Spirit is opposed by the Primal School. It is the school of mystery, the ephemeral school. This is the study of the invisible energies which surround us at all times, yet are outside of nature. It is from the Fade itself that this magic draws its power. Students of this school cover everything from direct manipulation of mana and spell energies to the study and summoning of spirits themselves.
By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.
To me that says when you deal Spirit Damage to someone you are damaging them on the level at which all living creatures are connected to the Fade. So you're probably literally damaging their Spirit if we imagine that as not their Soul but their connection to the Fade. This makes sense if you imagine what happens when a Mage is exposed to pure Lyrium: they die, or in controlled circumstances, are made tranquil.
 
This also explains why Dwarves are resistant even to Spirit damage, where as magical creatures like Dragons tend to be vulnerable to it.

 

Forget resistant, dwarves should be flat-out immune if it has to do with cutting you off from the fade. Now using fade energy to punch you in the soul directly, that's another matter, and dwarves would be hurt by that.

[dragonflight288]

Forget resistant, dwarves should be flat-out immune if it has to do with cutting you off from the fade. Now using fade energy to punch you in the soul directly, that's another matter, and dwarves would be hurt by that.

 

Except that they aren't immune to even lyrium. It can affect them. They only resist the affects. 

 

Dwarves don't dream like the other races, but they can still be pulled into the Fade. And this causes Oghren to freak out in Origins when he finds out. 

 

That means dwarves must have some small connection to the Fade, but not one that is strong enough to dream. 

[andy6915]

Except that they aren't immune to even lyrium. It can affect them. They only resist the affects. 

 

Dwarves don't dream like the other races, but they can still be pulled into the Fade. And this causes Oghren to freak out in Origins when he finds out. 

 

That means dwarves must have some small connection to the Fade, but not one that is strong enough to dream. 

 

They are immune though. It makes them a little forgetful at worst. A dwarf in Origins got lyrium directly into his bloodstream, and all that happened was he got a bit absent-minded and got a stutter. That's a ridiculous amount of immunity, considering it's instantly fatal to other races just to touch the stuff let alone getting it into your blood.