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#76
God

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Hey Liara's skin is colored red, my interpretation must be right......lol

 

Face it, not everything is open for interpretation.

 

Please, after three years, people still don't get ME3, so we get simple populist stories like DAI that take no risks.

 

You are correct. Not everything is open for interpretation.

 

That said, your general attitude about things that are open for interpretation (which the things here involving the ending and the similarities to other media are most certainly) is indicative of your general ideology and belief system.

 

I have no doubt that you probably are trying to create an argument right now that indeed confirms that Liara's skin color is indeed red.



#77
txgoldrush

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Which is why I feel obligated to create as much chaos as possible. "Let the evolutionary process decide, not galactic politics". Else I'm not better than the Reapers, who try to orchestrate everything.

 

 

Destruction is a good start to making this happen.

yet, here you are, impacting people with your choice.....there is no escaping it. Destroy at best wipes out all your synthetic allies.

 

Its not an exception, its the rule.



#78
txgoldrush

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You are correct. Not everything is open for interpretation.

 

That said, your general attitude about things that are open for interpretation (which the things here involving the ending and the similarities to other media are most certainly) is indicative of your general ideology and belief system.

 

I have no doubt that you probably are trying to create an argument right now that indeed confirms that Liara's skin color is indeed red.

Please.....and you ignoring and disregarding clear evidence against your claims also tells your ideology and belief system.

 

Its the one of ignorance, the ideology of it has to suck and be bad just because you don't like it.


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#79
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yet, here you are, impacting people with your choice.....there is no escaping it. Destroy at best wipes out all your synthetic allies.

 

Its not an exception, its the rule.

 

I lost one ally. EDI. She decided it was OK before that to give her life to save people. It's her choice. And she can be the sacrificial lamb if she wants. I won't. That's what it comes down to. Let yourself be Space Jesus for the sake of Synthesis. Or let EDI be Space Jesus for the sake of Destroy.

 

I didn't ally with the Geth fleet. And Legion made his choice. Not me. He said in ME2 that the Geth wanted to build their own future... then he went back on that, and decided the future was with Reaper code. 



#80
txgoldrush

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I lost one ally. EDI. She decided it was OK before that to give her life to save people. It's her choice. And she can be the sacrificial lamb if she wants. I won't. That's what it comes down to. Let yourself be Space Jesus for the sake of Synthesis. Or let EDI be Space Jesus for the sake of Destroy.

 

I didn't ally with the Geth fleet, because Legion made his choice. Not me. He said in ME2 that the Geth wanted to build their own future... then he went back on that, and decided the future was with Reaper code. 

But with the Geth, that decision is much tougher. And if your EMS is lower, which has to be part of the argument as well, the damage is far worse. Would you pick Vaporization over Control? In fact Paragon Shepard's rationale to control the Reapers was to save lives...his or her "sacrifice" to save the many. So indeed Control may also be selfless as well.

 

Legion went back on that because the Quarians destroyed any chance of that, which reinforces my point, you have no free will because your destiny can be decided by others. This fact is also ignored by many on this forum who want to accuse Bioware of this inconsistency that does not exist. Legion even states that the Quarian attack "narrowed their perspective".



#81
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But with the Geth, that decision is much tougher. And if your EMS is lower, which has to be part of the argument as well, the damage is far worse. Would you pick Vaporization over Control? In fact Paragon Shepard's rationale to control the Reapers was to save lives...his or her "sacrifice" to save the many. So indeed Control may also be selfless as well.

 

Legion went back on that because the Quarians destroyed any chance of that, which reinforces my point, you have no free will because your destiny can be decided by others.

 

I think the Geth suck for that. They should have kept their dignity, even in the face of destruction. But they don't know what dignity is. Nor do they care about a sense of "self". They're not worth helping.

 

EDI tells that story about humans being captured/tortured on Earth, and how defiant they are even when they have no means of fighting back. That they didn't give into the demands of their captors (the Reapers). The Geth couldn't live up to the example.

 

If you try to convince Legion "The Geth are better than this", even he disagrees. "No, we're not."



#82
angol fear

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I think this kinda proves the point.

 

"My interpretation=right"

"Your interpretatioon=wrong"

 

You didn't get my point and "God" never really read me.

If you have really read me you should have seen that I've never explained my interpretation on this forum. Unlike people here who dislike the game I'm not trying to impose my point of view/ interpretation. I've always given clues to make people start to think, I've always given basis of writing, basis of art and basis of reading. If you really have read me you should know that , for me, people can dislike the game, but if they think that their opinion is a "constructive criticism" or an objective criticism when they actually didn't understand the writing of the game... (cf. "Bioware didn't entertained me", "the ending is bad writing", "destroy is the only valid option"  etc...).



#83
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Please.....and you ignoring and disregarding clear evidence against your claims also tells your ideology and belief system.

 

Its the one of ignorance, the ideology of it has to suck and be bad just because you don't like it.

 

Clear evidence? What clear evidence? The single ambiguous line of dialogue that you're distorting to fit your view.

 

That's not my belief system. My belief system is in the truth. This has nothing to do with sucking or being bad. I don't know why you're dragging that into this. It's a non-sequiter. 

 

I believe in the truth here. And since I don't have it, I disregard your assertion as speculation. No sucking or being bad required. It's neither of those. It's either true, or it is not.



#84
RatThing

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Ever heard of the Virtual Aliens?

 

''The virtual aliens are a race of some one billion individuals who downloaded their minds into a virtual world aboard a starship long ago to avoid the destruction of their civilization. As of 2185 CE, the virtual aliens have established diplomatic contact with the Citadel Council in order to secure a new power source for the systems that maintain their virtual world. The aliens' name for themselves is currently unknown.

 

All virtual aliens do not currently have physical bodies of their own. To facilitate communication with the Citadel Council, the virtual aliens showed that they are capable of swapping consciousnesses with other sentient beings and can control their bodies.'' See Mass Effect Wikia for more info.

 

I rest my case.

 

 

Lol, quoting the game again when I already told you I ignore the things that don't make sence to me. Common sence beats lore. Those original aliens are gone, the virtual aliens are nothing but an artificial construct based on their minds. If the writer want me to believe that those are still the same beings, then they are pushing a message that is purely esotericism. 



#85
angol fear

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Clear evidence? What clear evidence? The single ambiguous line of dialogue that you're distorting to fit your view.

 

 

The whole writing of Mass Effect is based on ambiguous lines, implicit and paradox. That's why most people think that there are plot holes, problem of logic and lack of foreshadowing.



#86
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The whole writing of Mass Effect is based on ambiguous lines, implicit and paradox. That's why most people think that there are plot holes, problem of logic and lack of foreshadowing.

 

And when something is built up to be that opaque with intentional lack of clarity, that's when the ideas come in that such things exist. It's very speculative. 

 

When it's that ambiguous, you can't make a claim that some interpretation fits overall. Which is what your man is doing here. Which is why he is wrong.


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#87
GalacticWolf5

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Lol, quoting the game again when I already told you I ignore the things that don't make sence to me. Common sence beats lore. Those original aliens are gone, the virtual aliens are nothing but an artificial construct based on their minds. If the writer want me to believe that those are still the same beings, then they are pushing a message that is purely esotericism.

Mass Effect is a science-FICTION game set in a FICTIONAL universe. This is not real life. If they say you can download your mind and stay the same person then you can. Am I saying it's possible in real life? Absolutely not.

It's fiction, just go with it.
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#88
Iakus

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It's fiction, just go with it.

When I need to use that line to justify a story, the story has failed.

 

That state of mind has been called “willing suspension of disbelief.”  But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens.  What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.”  He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter.  Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world.  You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.  The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed"

 

JRR Tolkien



#89
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Ever heard of the Virtual Aliens?

 

''The virtual aliens are a race of some one billion individuals who downloaded their minds into a virtual world aboard a starship long ago to avoid the destruction of their civilization. As of 2185 CE, the virtual aliens have established diplomatic contact with the Citadel Council in order to secure a new power source for the systems that maintain their virtual world. The aliens' name for themselves is currently unknown.

 

All virtual aliens do not currently have physical bodies of their own. To facilitate communication with the Citadel Council, the virtual aliens showed that they are capable of swapping consciousnesses with other sentient beings and can control their bodies.'' See Mass Effect Wikia for more info.

 

I rest my case.

 

The problem with this is that it was a blip in the Cerberus Daily News which hardly anyone remembers. I don't even think Walters remembered it, and that's why it was missed as part of the plot for ME3. Unfortunately no one did anything with this. Actually the aliens uploaded their minds into a virtual world when their sun was about to supernova.



#90
angol fear

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And when something is built up to be that opaque with intentional lack of clarity, that's when the ideas come in that such things exist. It's very speculative. 

 

When it's that ambiguous, you can't make a claim that some interpretation fits overall. Which is what your man is doing here. Which is why he is wrong.

 

That's where you're wrong, and that's something you should have learnt at school. Even with ambiguous things you have limits, you can't make Mass effect  say everthing you want. So yes, there are interpretations that fit overall. The problem is that as long as you ignore the writing, sure you'll think that you can make it say whatever you want. There are good readers and bad readers : good readers understand the three level that are poïesis, neutral and esthesis level. These three level aren't separated for good readers.

 

 

Mass Effect is a science-FICTION game set in a FICTIONAL universe. This is not real life. If they say you can download your mind and stay the same person then you can. Am I saying it's possible in real life? Absolutely not.

It's fiction, just go with it.

 

Agree, this is the internal logic and that's more important than common sense. When someone start a science-fiction story he has to start with, in mind, the idea that it's a fiction and a fiction that isn't not supposed to be realistic (it can be but doesn't mean that it has to be). It's anticipation. Mass Effect has developed enough things to make the player understand that. When you've got the concept of essence, when you've got memory of space etc... you are in the rules of Mass Effect's logic. To ignore the internal logic of a story is like playing a game without following the rules.

 

 

When I need to use that line to justify a story, the story has failed.

 

That state of mind has been called “willing suspension of disbelief.”  But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens.  What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.”  He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter.  Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world.  You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.  The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed"

 

JRR Tolkien

 

I like Tolkien but no. Mass Effect isn't fantasy. His vision of art is wrong. You like to use that quotation but seriously, the entire 20th century show that he is wrong. You're making him ridiculous. Sure you can apply what he said on some kind of writing but you can't use it to say that a story failed.



#91
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That's where you're wrong, and that's something you should have learnt at school. Even with ambiguous things you have limits, you can't make Mass effect  say everthing you want. So yes, there are interpretations that fit overall. The problem is that as long as you ignore the writing, sure you'll think that you can make it say whatever you want. There are good readers and bad readers : good readers understand the three level that are poïesis, neutral and esthesis level. These three level aren't separated for good readers.

 

 

I don't think what you said would hold water with any credible literary analyst or writer with common sense. I tend to agree on said point (which is kind of what I was making to begin with), you can't make a series say whatever you want it to say without a good argument for it. 

 

And that goes both ways.

 

txgoldrush's interpretation (and likely by extension, your interpretation) doesn't fall within the limitations of what is presented by the rather jumbled and inconsistent depiction in Mass Effect.

 

This is exactly what txgoldrush has done since ME3 came out. He routinely creates arguments based around obscure and ambiguous evidence to pass off his fantasy and headcanon as evidence, primarily for the purpose of 'proving' how much greater of a Mass Effect fan he is than anyone else, and thus more worthy of being listened to by BW. At best, its a massive ego problem, at worst its a mental disorder caked around a serious brown-nosing issue.

 

 


Agree, this is the internal logic and that's more important than common sense. When someone start a science-fiction story he has to start with, in mind, the idea that it's a fiction and a fiction that isn't not supposed to be realistic (it can be but doesn't mean that it has to be). It's anticipation. Mass Effect has developed enough things to make the player understand that. When you've got the concept of essence, when you've got memory of space etc... you are in the rules of Mass Effect's logic. To ignore the internal logic of a story is like playing a game without following the rules.

 

 

This wasn't in response to me, but I feel I should address it anyway:

 

Any writer who tells me to 'roll with it' in regards to questions, critique, or awareness of a fault or hole or inconsistency in a story is not a good writer.

 

I know that fiction is not meant to always be realistic. And there are indeed varying levels of realism. However, fiction is always meant to be consistent (barring of course the intention of the setting was to not be consistent, in which case you're likely to end up with some truly bizarre - and occasionally brilliant - stories). Mass Effect, from the beginning, was meant to be internally consistent. Something introduced, especially something like vitalism, a philosophy stating that life can arise from non-life spontaneously (aka, mysticism and the 'life/organic essence' bit that you're putting forward here), something that is introduced at the eleventh hour and given no projected information in the preceding narrative is not internal logic or consistency.

 

To be blunt, Mass Effect, at that point, broke the single, golden rule of storytelling. It jumped from one level of fictional reality to another. And it did it without explanation, and it did it without any effort (real or feigned) to even show what was happening at all. It broke the suspension of disbelief. I'll get onto it more in the next paragraph, which I feel I must respond to as well.

 

I'm not attacking synthesis here. I'm attacking how it was portrayed. I'm not attacking the ending here. I'm attacking how it was portrayed.

 

If you have to defend it with 'it's a part of the universe, just roll with it', without offering or believing in any critique or concerns with the lack of internal consistency, and complete acceptance of flagrant changes to the lore and very narrative that builds the foundation of the setting of the universe on a whim, then I would say that you have a very poor sense of narrative comprehension and judgement. So poor in fact, that I literally think you're trying to bullshit me and make a pro-argument just so that you can be different.

 

I like Tolkien but no. Mass Effect isn't fantasy. His vision of art is wrong. You like to use that quotation but seriously, the entire 20th century show that he is wrong. You're making him ridiculous. Sure you can apply what he said on some kind of writing but you can't use it to say that a story failed.

 

 

Given Mass Effect's occasional tendency to jump between the ropes and change its internal depictions of lore and laws, I'd say that Mass Effect jumped the boat from somewhat hard fiction to space fantasy. 

 

Tolkein is defending narrative internal consistency. Are you denying that? Are you saying that it's alright to simply jump from one level of fantasy to another, without explanation, and have things happen that cannot happen without serious rule-breaking of the lore's internal logic and rules?

 

Suspension of disbelief is something everyone has for every story: each story has its own level of consistency, and we willingly take a level of SoD to accept the story. When said story makes more and more implausible, incredible, and downright impossible events and sequences happen, our SoD is stretched further and further, and our acceptance of said story wanes because the story is failing to maintain its internal rules. Now, this isn't always a bad thing. There is plenty of fiction and fantasy that do this intentionally, and if the audience is particularly aware of this, is much more capable of adapting their SoD to accept this. 

 

Alas, Mass Effect is not one of these series where it was intentional: thus, our SoD is set at a certain level, and as the series goes on, it will be increasingly strained as more and more incredible, implausible, and impossible events (relative to its internal rules) happen. It comes to a point where the SoD in particular might even break.

 

When that happens, the illusion has been broken. You no longer see the story for what its trying to present, but what it is. It's lost you, and its lost its credibility since the sheer amount of changing and jumping in the lore has made the story whimsical, non-sensical by its own rules, and a self-parody. It's trying to hard to get you to accept something, that ignores the rules it set in place to show that to you.

 

Tolkein is talking against such a philosophy. He is talking about maintaining the illusion, so to speak. If you can't maintain the illusion, you aren't a very compelling storyteller. If the illusion in the story is broken, then the story itself is broken. The story stalls, sputters, and falls back to earth with a crash. The story has failed.


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#92
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What I find to be slightly hilarious is when some fans of the series claim that the narrative is consistent is that they tend to choose to forget (or ignore) that the theme of Mass Effect's ending was changed at one point late in development.  According to Drew Karpyshyn, the original theme of the series was intended to cover the subject of Dark Energy but a change was made due to a leak and negative feedback response.

 

Critics of the Dark Energy idea tend to mention that it only appears in the Haestrom mission and had less relevance to the plot  I would argue that this is not a correct overview of how crucial Dark Energy was to the MEU.  This one theme ties all the essential elements of the Mass Effect together; from the essential element that makes the universe function, through the architecture of the network that allows the galaxy to communicate and the original reasoning behind the Reaper's motivations is more consistent across the trilogy and more logical and justifiable when compared with the released ending.

 

I can understand that the Dark Energy theme would have issues with the fan base. One of the design decisions that both endings share was that a lot was to be left unexplained. This would have undoubted caused a reaction against the ending similar to the release because the science of Dark Energy is a challenging subject to imagine that relies on ideas that we are only beginning to grasp about the expansion of the universe, its composition and some of these ideas can contradict accepted "wisdom". Also the DE ending also played out in a choice that was dark; IIRC it required a sacrifice of the player avatar and the human race itself in a gruesome climax that would have also been misinterpreted.   

 

 

 



#93
Iakus

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I like Tolkien but no. Mass Effect isn't fantasy. His vision of art is wrong. You like to use that quotation but seriously, the entire 20th century show that he is wrong. You're making him ridiculous. Sure you can apply what he said on some kind of writing but you can't use it to say that a story failed.

Internal consistency is unimportant?  :huh:



#94
angol fear

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Quick answer

 

@APrentice, hilarious? Let's see with a basic comparison : 

-dark energy : nothing in Mass Effect 1, appears maybe three times in Mass Effect 2 (maybe less), and almost nothing in Mass Effect 3.

-organic/synthetics : Mass Effect 1 is based on that, the very few element of story in Mass Effect 2 is based on that, in Mass Effect 3 Rannoch is the central part of the game.

 

Dark energy fit better when there's almost nothing?

Now let's see what Drew think about that :

http://www.eurogamer...-trilogy-ending

 

"Again it's very vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction."

So it was just an idea that wasn't developed and that was dropped out. I don't see when it was the original ending that was removed because of a leak and negative feedback. It was dropped out before the leak, before Drew left Mass Effect.

I hope you were not serious when you posted that.

 

@Iakus, did you read what I wrote? I've never said that. I said that Tolkien gives his own vision of that and it doesn't work on everything, you can't apply his vision on everything so stop using this quotation in a wrong context. So yes internal consistency is important, but you should learn what it is instead of using irony.

 

@God, you simplify what I said (sure it's easier to attack!). I know what Tolkien means. I know what is consistency. I gave clues in my previous post if you want to understand what is consistency (a definition that could be more general than Tolkien's). But I think that you should know that Mass Effect's writing is mostly post-modernism, that's the basis to understand the entire game and the ending. Mass Effect didn't break any rule of storytelling ( there is no rule of storytelling!), and the different level was here from mass effect 1 to mass effect 3, you just didn't see it and couldn't understand the logic behind it. There's no "deal with it" in Mass Effect.


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#95
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Quick answer

 

@APrentice, hilarious? Let's see with a basic comparison : 

-dark energy : nothing in Mass Effect 1, appears maybe three times in Mass Effect 2 (maybe less), and almost nothing in Mass Effect 3.

-organic/synthetics : Mass Effect 1 is based on that, the very few element of story in Mass Effect 2 is based on that, in Mass Effect 3 Rannoch is the central part of the game.

 

Dark energy fit better when there's almost nothing?

Now let's see what Drew think about that :

http://www.eurogamer...-trilogy-ending

 

"Again it's very vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction."

So it was just an idea that wasn't developed and that was dropped out. I don't see when it was the original ending that was removed because of a leak and negative feedback. It was dropped out before the leak, before Drew left Mass Effect.

I hope you were not serious when you posted that.

 

@Iakus, did you read what I wrote? I've never said that. I said that Tolkien gives his own vision of that and it doesn't work on everything, you can't apply his vision on everything so stop using this quotation in a wrong context. So yes internal consistency is important, but you should learn what it is instead of using irony.

 

@God, you simplify what I said (sure it's easier to attack!). I know what Tolkien means. I know what is consistency. I gave clues in my previous post if you want to understand what is consistency (a definition that could be more general than Tolkien's). But I think that you should know that Mass Effect's writing is mostly post-modernism, that's the basis to understand the entire game and the ending. Mass Effect didn't break any rule of storytelling ( there is no rule of storytelling!), and the different level was here from mass effect 1 to mass effect 3, you just didn't see it and couldn't understand the logic behind it. There's no "deal with it" in Mass Effect.

 

Except in the end. The last 30 minutes we have to deal with it.... And it's pure bullsh*t. I think pretty much anyone could have written a better ending.


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#96
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The only regrettable thing about the dark energy plot is it just hangs in the air. Even if they didn't want to conclude the series that way, it's too bad that it just lingers as some mysterious and catastrophic phenomena. They could've at least recycled some ideas for a Crucible asset or something. A lot of the research assets have to do with dark energy (the crucible itself is a dark energy device).


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#97
dreamgazer

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Except in the end. The last 30 minutes we have to deal with it.... And it's pure bullsh*t. I think pretty much anyone could have written a better ending.


Except Drew Karpyshyn, apparently. Dark energy's circular logic and Reaper good-guy twist makes ME3's shipped ending look good.
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#98
txgoldrush

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Quick answer

 

@APrentice, hilarious? Let's see with a basic comparison : 

-dark energy : nothing in Mass Effect 1, appears maybe three times in Mass Effect 2 (maybe less), and almost nothing in Mass Effect 3.

-organic/synthetics : Mass Effect 1 is based on that, the very few element of story in Mass Effect 2 is based on that, in Mass Effect 3 Rannoch is the central part of the game.

 

Dark energy fit better when there's almost nothing?

Now let's see what Drew think about that :

http://www.eurogamer...-trilogy-ending

 

"Again it's very vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction."

So it was just an idea that wasn't developed and that was dropped out. I don't see when it was the original ending that was removed because of a leak and negative feedback. It was dropped out before the leak, before Drew left Mass Effect.

I hope you were not serious when you posted that.

 

@Iakus, did you read what I wrote? I've never said that. I said that Tolkien gives his own vision of that and it doesn't work on everything, you can't apply his vision on everything so stop using this quotation in a wrong context. So yes internal consistency is important, but you should learn what it is instead of using irony.

 

@God, you simplify what I said (sure it's easier to attack!). I know what Tolkien means. I know what is consistency. I gave clues in my previous post if you want to understand what is consistency (a definition that could be more general than Tolkien's). But I think that you should know that Mass Effect's writing is mostly post-modernism, that's the basis to understand the entire game and the ending. Mass Effect didn't break any rule of storytelling ( there is no rule of storytelling!), and the different level was here from mass effect 1 to mass effect 3, you just didn't see it and couldn't understand the logic behind it. There's no "deal with it" in Mass Effect.

Good lord, do ME3 bashers love to bring up Drew Karpyshyn.

 

Drew Karpyshyn actually once said that the ending is close to what he imagined and planned it to be, so much for using Drew Karpyshyn to bash ME3 and its ending.

 

And really bashers should actually listen to what he has to say.


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#99
Iakus

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Citation needed

He has never publicly commented on the endings as shown. Positively or negatively

#100
angol fear

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Citation needed

He has never publicly commented on the endings as shown. Positively or negatively

Drew himself, on Twitter:

 

https://twitter.com/...282584155590656

 

"From what I hear, the basic concept of the original ending is there, though some details may have been tweaked."

 

His site/blog :

http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=381

 

another source :

http://www.gameranx....ies-conclusion/

 

All of this was published just after the beginning of the hate, but it was ignored (it's not the only thing that has been ignored by people who hate Mass Effect 3).

I suggest people to try to find these source, when you use google to find it you'll find a lot of things about dark energy being the original ending etc... People have been repeating lies so many times that the truth become hard to find. That's the beauty of internet!