Aller au contenu

Photo

BW at ECGC: Game needs a mechanic that can be executed during boredom


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
48 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Terodil

Terodil
  • Members
  • 942 messages
M. Laidlaw held the keynote speech at the East Coast Game Conference. I came across an article here: http://www.gamersnex...ynote-ecgc-2015

Bioware on Its Own Shortcomings and Using Heatmaps to Study Players
By Steve Burke Published April 09, 2015 at 8:00 am

The annual East Coast Game Conference -- a 1500-attendee attempt at GDC-style development gatherings -- welcomed Mike Laidlaw of Bioware for its keynote today. The Bioware Creative Director has been tasked with oversight of the company's Dragon Age product line, drawing from his experience to discuss world design and storytelling at the conference.

Laidlaw's presentation spanned behind-the-scenes aspects of the development process, including unique considerations taken into account when producing a more open-world title. Throughout the keynote, Laidlaw made playful jabs at Bioware's own shortcomings with Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age: Inquisition, often referencing the Hinterlands and player defiance for migration.

Usability and Player Progression: Heat Maps to Study Map Exploration

Among Bioware's deployed technologies to determine usability of Inquisition, a heatmapping system was implemented during play testing to analyze where players adventured. This system was used primarily internally during company playtests and tracked where players physically traveled on each map; as the first semi-open world Dragon Age title, Laidlaw considered this approach critical to understanding player tendencies in exploration.

The heatmap quickly highlighted regions where players would get stuck, backtrack for several minutes, and eventually disengage or otherwise exit the game. This utility also assisted in underscoring pacing problems where players might spend too much time – like the Hinterlands – and provided actionable enhancements to gameplay prior to finalizing the title. Some regions of the game's large world were almost never touched by the team, leading to troubleshooting of why that happened and how it could be resolved.

That's not always a bad thing, though, as Laidlaw pointed out.

“Designer Hugs”

A slide shown during the presentation offered this quote:

"I feel like these nooks and crannies need to make me feel like a designer is waiting here to leap out and hug me."

The point to this, the engaged crowd was told, is that players should be rewarded for wanderlust and exploration. If a player decides to diverge from the game's crit path to take-in the environment – perhaps to trek to a barren beach, even with no enemies in sight – that player should then be rewarded with something non-critical that shows appreciation. “It should feel like a designer 'got there first,'” Laidlaw indicated, noting that it's important for players to feel engaged by the game's creators.

These planted assets are often referred to as “easter eggs” in games, though that phrase wasn't used in the Bioware keynote. The example provided drew upon the gaming world's most coveted object: The cheesewheel. A block of cheese was placed far away in the environment, hidden away from the critical progression path – nothing special here, just a giant wheel of cheese on a table. Then, Laidlaw told us, the game's Art Director said “We're makin' a shield. We're doin' it.” Just a month from certification, in under an hour, the team added a usable cheese shield as a playful reward to keen-eyed players.

Power is a Separate Currency [from Gold]

Learning from previous titles, Bioware decided that gold and power should be regarded as separate currencies.

Quests that required collection of substantial amounts of gold would deter players from actually spending that gold and shopping, detracting from an important, core gameplay experience into which designers invested heavy resources.

Transitioning into Dragon Age and its sequels, Bioware decided that power should be awarded in part through story and that gold should enable fulfillment.

Why Jumping is Important

“We thought we didn't need it [before],” Laidlaw said of jumping before conceding “we were wrong. Sorry.”

Laidlaw referenced Knights of the Old Republic, an RPG that – although it lacked jumping – had a button allowing a flick of the player's lightsaber. This twirl was “something to do while you were running,” described as the “most boring aspect” of any game. The Bioware Creative Director noted that this has been taken into consideration for future titles, and that any semi-open world game demands a mechanic that can be executed during boredom.

It's a natural tendency to do these actions while running and exploring, although not necessarily immersive by nature. Sit any player down in front of an MMORPG and you'll observe them jumping within seconds.

On Console Limitations

Dragon Age: Inquisition faced hardware limitations on the PlayStation and Xbox, with Laidlaw noting that dynamic time was impossible at a desirable level on consoles: "Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware -- coupled with what we're doing visually -- are unable to handle that data."

As a PC gaming site, we're all familiar with untapped potential in gaming hardware due to limitations – API overhead is the most common, but console ports are among the most noticed form of throttling hardware capabilities.

Conclusion

Bioware entered DA:I development with lowered confidence as a result of Dragon Age 2's mediocre reception, with confidence further dashed by a transition in both hardware and software platforms. The game's engine and available consoles were all changing at the same time, the team was venturing into relatively unexplored gameplay mechanics, and Bioware felt as if it was “building the car while driving down the highway.”

“It was a big game,” Laidlaw concluded, noting that development often followed a path of “here's a stone – try hitting things with it and see what breaks.”

- Steve "Lelldorianx" Burke.


What do you think?
  • Endurium et Dreamer aiment ceci

#2
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 752 messages

Some things make sense. I think that Jumping was mishandled. Laidlaw was right about light-saber twirling, it does make you feel like a badass. But in Inquisition's case, the animation was extremely awkward, especially with the clothing animations. 

 

I approve of his approach to exploration (the cheese wheel example), but think it needs much better execution and more things to do. As a Dark Souls fan boy, I love it when the designer creates the world first and then chooses to populate it. Occasional easter eggs are alright (Dark Souls has its fair share), but I think the areas of Inquisition are too big with not enough going on. 


  • Hiemoth, Terodil, deatharmonic et 4 autres aiment ceci

#3
Shevy

Shevy
  • Members
  • 1 080 messages

Everyone who has played WoW once in his/her life simply has to agree on the "jumping in seconds" part.

 

As for the rest, I think heatmaps to see where players headed in the environment and where not are a great tool to improve large maps. On the "why" you have to draw the right conclusions out of the data, though.

 

With Xbox 360/PS3 gone for a potential DA IV I hope we'll see more world reactivity and dynamic.


  • Il Divo et Terodil aiment ceci

#4
Winged Silver

Winged Silver
  • Members
  • 703 messages

I like some of the ideas brought up here, and I would say the devs are at least looking in the right direction. I do think there can always be a little 'more', but that might also just be me wanting to be spoiled :P

 

Heat maps: 

Seems like a good idea to me. If an area is untouched because it's next to impossible to get to, one could argue that it's that much more rewarding for the players who do make it, but I'd also think there are limits to that. If this gives devs a better idea of how to orient maps (as far as settlement/foliage/things to jump over distribution), and how to size them, then I think it's pretty cool. I'm glad they're taking steps in this regard (I'll just have to wait and see if I agree with how they interpret the data and what they do with it ^_^)

 

Designer Hugs:

In theory I really like these! I always loved picking up codexes that referenced things, or finding cool items. Even just a really pretty scene is very nice (Skyrim had a similar thing, though I couldn't say if it was purposeful or not). In DA:O, you had the opportunity to pick up a rambling codex about a dwarf named Shepard and elevator chats. You also could find Katriel's Grasp, which references a character in The Stolen Throne. Those were nice touches. I would argue though that Inquisition could have used a lot more of these, since the world was so big. Maybe I'm just not very observant, but I didn't exactly feel like I was being rewarded all that often for poking around. Definitely found some areas where I felt there should have been something, so maybe a bug, but yeah. I think they could have done a lot more of this in Inquisition, given the large map sizes.

 

Power and Gold:

I don't know if I completely agree with them here. Or at least, I didn't think the way it was implemented in Inquisition was very balanced. I had way too much power by the end of the game, and gold was something I had very little of until I hit the end run, where suddenly I had too much of that as well (which I know tends to happen in a lot of games). I feel like they could've made the power dynamic more interesting if there was less of it and you had more 'you can have A or B, but not both' scenarios. Make the player squirm while they try to figure out what's actually going to help their cause. As it is now, the game would have played the same for me if they hadn't included it at all (though I suppose a player trying to rush through some parts might find themselves short on power)

 

Jumping:

Found it super weird at first to play a DA game with jumping...I have no strong feelings on it at this point in time though.

 

Console Limitation:

I have a PC, so i got away relatively unscathed. My sympathies to all the players who bought the game on old gen consoles and are having difficulties with it.

 

Conclusion:

It's too bad they had their confidence so lowered. I liked DA2, even with its flaws. I could say the same for Inquisition. I'm hoping that since they've gotten the major groundwork done for creating DA style games with Frostbite, their next game might go a little more smoothly, as they focus more on 'driving the car' so to speak, rather than 'building it'.


  • Terodil aime ceci

#5
Dreamer

Dreamer
  • Members
  • 587 messages

Based on my experience with SWTOR, it seems Bioware really loves their internal metrics. This is good, because it can help them catch a problem they might not otherwise have noticed, but unless you're correctly interpreting the data (which relies primarily on experience and intuition), you're not going to glean anything meaningful. Inquisition was obviously front-loaded--and I didn't need metrics to tell me that--so either the empty middle and end maps were casualties of time or incompetence. My bet is on the former.

 

As for the PS3/XB1 limitations: Thanks for nothing. You hamstrung yourself (and your players) because of some silly corporate requirement to bring the game to last-gen; had you just built a better game without having to make those sacrifices, I'm willing to bet you could have made up the difference in boxes sold.


  • Beama Beorhtost, Terodil, ThePhoenixKing et 4 autres aiment ceci

#6
Endurium

Endurium
  • Members
  • 2 147 messages

The idea of heat maps make sense where critical quests are involved; don't want players avoiding an area that's necessary for game advancement after all. However, I don't necessarily want a game to be streamlined so only maps visited in testing are made available to the public. Also, I rarely play according to a developer's whims, and am one of those who will sometimes walk through town, or park on a beach to enjoy the view while multitasking, etc.

 

Also to me, jumping and sabre twirling isn't about boredom, but is something that adds fun to the utility of running. I rarely get bored but I can become disinterested if I'm not in the mood for something. Often will fire up a game only to find I'm not really in the mood to play it at the moment.

 

I love little surprises in a game, especially those that reward my tendency to explore fully any given part of the game. Doesn't have to be an "easter egg" or cultural reference to have value in my eyes.

 

Anyway, nice to see a developer comment on the development process at Bioware, at least on the DA side of things.


  • Dreamer aime ceci

#7
C0uncil0rTev0s

C0uncil0rTev0s
  • Members
  • 1 159 messages

I'd say "Mr. Laudlaw, we get that you made a brilliant game with some unique development technologies. Now please speak of what you've fucked up and how you're going to change that, thank you". 


  • Beama Beorhtost, Terodil, ThePhoenixKing et 2 autres aiment ceci

#8
Dreamer

Dreamer
  • Members
  • 587 messages

I'd say "Mr. Laudlaw, we get that you made a brilliant game with some unique development technologies. Now please speak of what you've fucked up and how you're going to change that, thank you". 

 

That's basically what he did...



#9
BabyPuncher

BabyPuncher
  • Members
  • 1 939 messages

There's a very simple reason why jumping animations have always been and will very likely always will be bad.

 

In real life, jumps are never immediate. You can't just shoot up into the air, you have to apply a force with your body to the ground beneath you. A person or animal always has to prepare for it slightly by bending their knees and so forth. It's necessary to show those little details to make jumping look good.

 

Games cannot do that. The jump needs to happen immediately, as soon as the player presses the button. Since the game can't anticipate when the player wants to jump, it can't animate the character 'preparing' and the jump looks silly.

 

The exception is when characters jump off ledges or something of the sort instead of jumping in place. When a character is running towards a cliff, the game CAN anticipate that the character is going to jump off, and so they can animate 'preparing.' I'm willing to bet Uncharted and games like it use such systems, and so are able to have their characters look good jumping.



#10
C0uncil0rTev0s

C0uncil0rTev0s
  • Members
  • 1 159 messages

That's basically what he did...

What? Where?
Jumping is so much secondary that I can't express. 

What about moronic UI?
What about unnecessary skill limitations?

What about lazy secondary writing?

What about the banter system, for which developer team will burn in hell for ages?

What about endless bugs (couldn't hear exploring music even after Patch 6)?

What about terrible hairstyles?
What about grinding chematics in goddamn singleplayer game?
What about so little content in Multiplayer game?
What about promised PC controls patch?

What about taking back sane tactical cam controls?
What about ****** old consoles users with DLC being unavailable? 

What about modding support?

 


  • Beama Beorhtost, Terodil, ThePhoenixKing et 3 autres aiment ceci

#11
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 597 messages

What about grinding chematics in goddamn singleplayer game?


I believe he spoke to that elsewhere. At least about grinding in general, though perhaps not about schematics in particular. They don't seem to have anticipated that players would feel the need to grind for stuff that they don't actually need.
 

What about promised PC controls patch?


What promise was that? They said they were going to change some stuff, and they did change some stuff.
 

What about modding support?


What about it? They always said that this game wouldn't be about modding.

As for the rest, interface issues seem to be out of scope for the talk he was actually giving.

#12
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 199 messages

There's a very simple reason why jumping animations have always been and will very likely always be bad.

 

In real life, jumps are never immediate. You can't just shoot up into the air, you have to apply a force with your body to the ground beneath you. A person or animal always has to prepare for it slightly by bending their knees and so forth. It's necessary to show those little details to make jumping look good.

 

Games cannot do that. The jump needs to happen immediately, as soon as the player presses the button. Since the game can't anticipate when the player wants to jump, it can't animate the character 'preparing' and the jump looks silly.

 

The exception is when characters jump off ledges or something of the sort instead of jumping in place. When a character is running towards a cliff, the game CAN anticipate that the character is going to jump off, and so they can animate 'preparing.' I'm willing to bet Uncharted and games like it use such systems, and so are able to have their characters look good jumping.

It's true. It makes me wonder how a slightly longer jump with a short knee-bending animation would be received by fans. In the next Mass Effect and other sci-fi, I hope they use thruster-boosted jumps. Those look awesome. Perhaps a normal jump, and a power-jump by holding the button? Worked great in Crysis, and didn't take long at all.



#13
b10d1v

b10d1v
  • Members
  • 1 322 messages

Read it again- please!  "...we thought it was not needed" -sorry?  Sounds like Mike needs some people on his staff that actually play games and know the industry accepted standards.  There is no need to "guess" on known gaming industry practices and trends.  Is it more important to "spy" on how we use games or provide a quality product?  

Hot Mapping and pathfinding woes -connected?  Mysterious slowdowns?

 

Too bad tomatoes were not in the audience for some of these doozies. 


  • Beama Beorhtost, chrstnmonks et CDR Aedan Cousland aiment ceci

#14
Kantr

Kantr
  • Members
  • 8 648 messages

Read it again- please!  "...we thought it was not needed" -sorry?  Sounds like Mike needs some people on his staff that actually play games and know the industry accepted standards.  There is known need to "guess" on known gaming industry practices and trends.  Is it more important to "spy" on how we use games or provide a quality product?  

Hot Mapping and pathfinding woes -connected?  Mysterious slowdowns?

 

Too bad tomatoes were not in the audience for some of these doozies. 

He was talking about jumping in previous games.

 

Although you can't jump in the first witcher game either, wonder if you can jump in the second or third. (which after playing DA:I I want to do)



#15
Dread-Reaper

Dread-Reaper
  • Members
  • 444 messages

He was talking about jumping in previous games.

 

Although you can't jump in the first witcher game either, wonder if you can jump in the second or third. (which after playing DA:I I want to do)

You can jump across gaps, to a ledge or off a hill from what's been shown.



#16
Archerwarden

Archerwarden
  • Members
  • 256 messages
Okay I'll bite here. (sorry if someone's already posted similar thoughts already, just read the article. I'll go back & read posts in a bit)
Map to track the players: You cannot understand why the player has stopped in an area and backtracked, disengaged or exited the game only that he did. There are as many reasons why a player does something as there are players and no amount of tracking will tell you the WHY. Maybe within house testing its could be useful but if he is talking about tracking outside players - bad call.

You do not need a map to figure out why players spend more time in the Hinterlands. The Hinterlands has the most "content' or 'busywork' in the entire game. The game is gated so that you need so many points to proceed with the main quests and pick up companions. It is an RPG and gee, I want to see what is there, Hinterlands is the first map, heck yeah I'm gonna explore.

Why jumping is important: First, why is he talking about an MMO for a SP game? Running from point A to point B is not boring unless there is not much to do between point A & point B (see the Western Approach or the Hissing Wastes)Adding a twirling or jumping animation will not alleviate that boredom- something to do will. Second,lets take Guild Wars 2: I can jump, dance, sit and Kirk Roll. Engaging in these activities does not mean I am bored. Its called FUN. FUN is the exact opposite of boredom which I have much of the time DAI going from point A to point B. But GW2 uses its jump feature very well in jumping puzzles- many jumping puzzles that are FUN.

Next: Bioware's lowered confidence because of DA2 mediocre reception. First, it sounds like blaming the customer again, bad PR choice. Second, then why take on so much on for the next game at once? New engine, overly ambitious map, controlling constraints that you need to meet, social content check, multiplatform check, wider audience check, skyrim check, 1st time rpg users check, cameo's from last 2 games & books check. Seems if you had a lack of confidence maybe you should have scaled back and gone for quantity instead.

Last: Thinking Bioware should spend less time writing witty short sentences on twitter and come to their own forum. Lots of diehard fans that have thoughtful posts, customers/fans that want you to succeed and want to have fun and be engaged while playing your games- you might learn a thing or two.
  • Gileadan, Beama Beorhtost, Terodil et 10 autres aiment ceci

#17
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 597 messages
You think they don't read this stuff?

#18
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

I believe he spoke to that elsewhere. At least about grinding in general, though perhaps not about schematics in particular. They don't seem to have anticipated that players would feel the need to grind for stuff that they don't actually need.

 

Their mistake was in failing to realize that once you tie appearance customization to something, people will want it. Not everyone will care to powergame, but appearance? 



#19
Archerwarden

Archerwarden
  • Members
  • 256 messages

You think they don't read this stuff?

Oh I am quite sure somebody does and reports back. Tis why I posted that. I do think they need a dedicated PR Consultant-sometimes they just keep digging a bigger hole. Sometimes vague responses, articles/interviews that are not reviewed before published, short witty twitter comments can be interpreted not in way that was intended. A big company like this should know you can contract in to look over an piece before its published.

And criticism is not always a bad thing - it can keep you grounded ya know.

<shrugs>

#20
Terodil

Terodil
  • Members
  • 942 messages

I am in two minds about the article. Firstly, I appreciated getting some insight into the development process. Secondly, I felt my heart sink the longer I read the article.

 

The article is, of course, second hand. We didn't get to read what M. Laidlaw said, but what a reporter thought he said. This comes with a lot of information loss and possibly distortion. Additionally, such a conference is not 'neutral ground', it is a marketing platform where you add in just as much criticism as you have to in order not to appear as singing your own praise. So I didn't really expect any serious self-criticism to surface.

 

All that said... I still find it mind-boggling and just sad that once again, there was NO mention of writing at all. Writing used to be the centerpiece of Bioware games before DA:I, and this was, I find, the most important paradigm change we have witnessed with this installation in the DA series. The 'we were trying to build the car while we were already driving it' comment could be interpreted as an admission in this regard, but it's so unspecific that I just don't know.

 

I'm also afraid that Laidlaw is victim of the 'executive dumb-down' process; he is too high-level to actually grasp the *reasons* for why some stuff was successful while other stuff was not. I loved the cheesewheel and other little surprising things, yes, but if that is the only reason to explore, then BW has a problem. I thought the community had made it very clear (without much dissension either, for once), that DA:I was too fetch-questy. Laidlaw, hoever, even praises one of the core elements of fetch-questiness, 'power', as a brilliant new invention. I'd argue that gating in general is a bad crutch for lazy or underfunded writing, whether 'power' or 'gold'-based doesn't really matter.


  • Beama Beorhtost, Koneko Koji, Hazegurl et 5 autres aiment ceci

#21
Brainfist

Brainfist
  • Members
  • 9 messages

Jumping will also look always akward in thir-person games, because in many situations where you have to jump in a game, in real life you would make more of a big step, or climb, and not just make a hop up or down.


  • SwobyJ aime ceci

#22
Paul E Dangerously

Paul E Dangerously
  • Members
  • 1 880 messages

They're unable to do day/night cycles because of console limitations? Yeah. Sure. I've seen more visually impressive games on the old systems pull it off without a hitch.

 

Given Bioware's complete inability to make textures load on vital cutscenes, I'm almost willing to bet it's an effort thing.


  • Hazegurl aime ceci

#23
DarkKnightHolmes

DarkKnightHolmes
  • Members
  • 3 601 messages

Blah, the amount of grinding in this game for good schematics is the real boredom.


  • Beama Beorhtost aime ceci

#24
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 597 messages
Well, what he said was that they were unable to do dynamic time at a desirable level.

Though, yeah, Bio hasn't really cared about dynamic time since BG2. NWN had a clock, but it didn't do anything.

#25
b10d1v

b10d1v
  • Members
  • 1 322 messages

They're unable to do day/night cycles because of console limitations? Yeah. Sure. I've seen more visually impressive games on the old systems pull it off without a hitch.

 

Given Bioware's complete inability to make textures load on vital cutscenes, I'm almost willing to bet it's an effort thing.

Exactly the point -The only major change frostbite offers is in how surface textures are perceived as shown by some of the stellar examples - While, modeling the reflections on a mirror or prism does require more processing power and interesting possibilities; it offloads other systems - marginal overall impact.  Everything else is below and sometimes far below industry standards.  A good QA system would catch that!