230 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

What is so problematic about Reavers? I read the codex for it across all three games and the main thing I'm getting from it is that you just drink dragon's blood to get into a frenzy. It doesn't seem as sketchy as blood magic, which has a risk of bringing you closer to demons/abomination.

I don't really understand how Reavers work tbh, can anyone explain it to me?

 

It's not specifically in details about reavers, it's in a related codex.

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

 

"Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?"

 

The ones who teach it to you in DAO are a textbook case of a dragon cult, and they teach you it through the same dragon-blood drinking they do. So reavers are supposed to be a bit blood thirsty and possible a bit crazy for the weak willed ones (which aggressive Hawke is certainly not weak willed, so no worries on that part at least). Dragon's blood does really weird stuff to the body and drinking it is how reavers become what they are, and the documented effects of dragon's blood in Thedas is supposed to make you definitely more aggressive and blood thirsty and potentially crazy. Kolgrim, the leader of the DAO dragon cult, was definitely a loony.

[Jouni S]

Er, no. I don't think the Inquisition has ever engaged in either slavery or mental destruction.

The Inquisition hasn't, but its troops certainly have. Just look what the IS is doing in present-day Syria and Iraq. That's the kind of behavior you can expect from any forces fighting far away from home in a world like Thedas.
 

Rumormongering, however, is not rare. And it's easy enough to say that the Divine just doesn't want to start a war with the Inquisition.

You're still listing white swans in order to prove that black swans don't exist. That doesn't get you any closer to the goal.

Let's assume as unfavorable ending as possible. Every companion hates the Inquisitor, both the Chantry and Orlais oppose the Inquisition, the Inquisition doesn't have mages or templars, and so on. Whatever reason you have that allows a blood mage to lead the Inquisition, it should also work in this scenario.

[Xilizhra]

It is the belief she would have been raised with, and that was shared by the rest of her clan. There is no reason to believe that she would have such different views. However, regardless of any personal views, she discarded her clan's traditions by ignoring the guidance of the Keeper. She ignored her teachings and risked quite a bit in order to achieve a favorable outcome.

 

It is not really necessary. Some people will hold to completely unfounded views regardless of the evidence presented in the game. To constantly reiterate the same point over and over will not convince them that they are wrong. They will simply become annoyed by characters that they view as idiotic.

Also, Dorian's line about slavery is far more important than any he would have about blood magic because that is something that is inherent to Tevinter.

How is the former incompatible with idealism? Are all idealists supposed to hew to the values of the majority in their culture? That certainly doesn't match most idealists I know of.

[Xilizhra]

The Inquisition hasn't, but its troops certainly have. Just look what the IS is doing in present-day Syria and Iraq. That's the kind of behavior you can expect from any forces fighting far away from home in a world like Thedas.

Source, please? For what the Inquisition's done. Also, the Inquisition is not the Islamic State.

 

 

You're still listing white swans in order to prove that black swans don't exist. That doesn't get you any closer to the goal.

Let's assume as unfavorable ending as possible. Every companion hates the Inquisitor, both the Chantry and Orlais oppose the Inquisition, the Inquisition doesn't have mages or templars, and so on. Whatever reason you have that allows a blood mage to lead the Inquisition, it should also work in this scenario.

In as unfavorable an ending as possible, the Divine's power base is weak and could potentially collapse; that's the case for both Cassandra and Vivienne. Neither one would want to start a war. And while every companion might hate you, it's in-character for none of them to really want to destroy the Inquisition more than they would with a non-blood mage Inquisitor.

[Iakus]

 

Given what much of the playerbase has said, it's evidently necessary. And if his line about slavery had to be fiddled with to compensate for blood magic, that's really no loss.

I'd say if anything, the games have failed to show just how dark, destructive, and potentially evil blood magic is.  Might be why we don't have it in DAI in fact.  SInce it's seen as "cool and edgy" dark rather than "blood sacrifices and destructive to the Veil" dark.

[Uccio]

Despite all the issues you mentioned, people still seek the Qun at their own initiative, because it offers them better life. Thedas is not the West, where people are wealthy and free to do whatever they want. It's a world of extreme poverty and widespread oppression, where life is cheap and monsters are real.

The Qun is mainly a threat to the privileged upper classes, because it threatens their way of life. For almost everyone else, it just replaces one oppressor with another, and may provide a bit more security and stability.

 

There are always foolish people who turn into insanity to escape oppression. The qun is a threat to any thinking individual, be it a low peasant or a high king. Personhood is turned into a piece of machinery. There is no escaping that. You are conveniently bypassing it. Such system completely changes the fundamentals of what makes us human. A Qun spy in the Inquisition is as impossible as a blood magic spec. 

[Xilizhra]

I'd say if anything, the games have failed to show just how dark, destructive, and potentially evil blood magic is.  Might be why we don't have it in DAI in fact.  SInce it's seen as "cool and edgy" dark rather than "blood sacrifices and destructive to the Veil" dark.

If it's never really demonstrated that every single blood mage sacrifices people and damages the Veil, and in fact there are several counterexamples to such a belief, perhaps the former really is what's more true about it.

[Jouni S]

Source, please? For what the Inquisition's done. Also, the Inquisition is not the Islamic State.

That's just the way wars are fought. Some wars in the last couple of centuries may have been less brutal, but in the bigger picture, the IS is the norm, not the exception.

Combat is essentially an activity, where the goal is to murder people as efficiently as possible, preferably before the enemies even know that there is a combat taking place. Participating in such activities often turns people into monsters and makes them care less about social norms and ethical and moral issues, at least when they're dealing with people outside their own social groups.
 

In as unfavorable an ending as possible, the Divine's power base is weak and could potentially collapse; that's the case for both Cassandra and Vivienne. Neither one would want to start a war. And while every companion might hate you, it's in-character for none of them to really want to destroy the Inquisition more than they would with a non-blood mage Inquisitor.

The Inquisitor is no longer necessary after Corypheus has been defeated. If the companions hate the blood mage Inquisitor, then it seems reasonable for them to believe that the Inquisitor is the one destroying the Inquisition by merely being alive. It's not a tale of the PC defeating the villain. The companions are the real heroes in that story, and the blood mage is just a tool they use to beat the villain.
 

There are always foolish people who turn into insanity to escape oppression. The qun is a threat to any thinking individual, be it a low peasant or a high king. Personhood is turned into a piece of machinery. There is no escaping that. You are conveniently bypassing it. Such system completely changes the fundamentals of what makes us human. A Qun spy in the Inquisition is as impossible as a blood magic spec.

The Qun is just another kind of oppression, and some people rationally choose it over the oppression they're already suffering. Free thinking doesn't really have that much value, if the elite has the divine right to do anything they want to you, and you don't have any way to improve your life.

[Gilbert Salarian]

The Inquisitor is no longer necessary after Corypheus has been defeated. If the companions hate the blood mage Inquisitor, then it seems reasonable for them to believe that the Inquisitor is the one destroying the Inquisition by merely being alive. It's not a tale of the PC defeating the villain. The companions are the real heroes in that story, and the blood mage is just a tool they use to beat the villain.

 

Again with this supposition?  True, the Inquisitor was necessary (or in other words: was the right tool) to defeat Corypheus.  However, along the road to defeating Corypheus the Inquisitor was raised to lofty heights such that s/he has essentially become the Inquisition.  What reason would anyone have to displace the Inquisitor?  Who would fill the sizable power void left in the deposed Inquisitor's wake?  It would not be expedient to remove the Inquisitor simple due to their status as a blood mage.  At most, only a small insurrection would occur.  An equally possible reaction would be that blood magic loses some of its stigma because the Inquisitor was a blood mage.

 

 

The Qun is just another kind of oppression, and some people rationally choose it over the oppression they're already suffering. Free thinking doesn't really have that much value, if the elite has the divine right to do anything they want to you, and you don't have any way to improve your life.

 

Iron Bull explains this well.  Some people like, even need, structure and stability.  The Qun provides that.  You are assured of your place in society.  Compare that to a "free" society like most of the rest of Thedas.  People are born into unequal stations and hard work and ambition are no guarantee of success.  Yes, there are people that achieve much, but far more fail spectacularly or never overcome the station they are born into.

 

I also think it somewhat a fallacy that the Qun prohibits thinking.  Iron Bull certainly thinks.  The Arishok is a thinker.  The difference is that they don't necessarily act on what they think; they know their role and stay true to that.  How is that any different than Templars -a voluntary organization that is just as rigid as the Qun?

[KainD]

The Inquisitor is no longer necessary after Corypheus has been defeated. If the companions hate the blood mage Inquisitor, then it seems reasonable for them to believe that the Inquisitor is the one destroying the Inquisition by merely being alive. It's not a tale of the PC defeating the villain. The companions are the real heroes in that story, and the blood mage is just a tool they use to beat the villain.

 

There are no heroes nor villains in this story.

[Steelcan]

There are no heroes nor villains in this story.

yes, the darkspawn magister who assaulted the heavens, tries to kill you, killed thousands of people, leads a fanatical cult, and more than willing to slaughter his own supporters, isn't a villain

[KaiserShep]

Cory just needed a hug.

[Jouni S]

An equally possible reaction would be that blood magic loses some of its stigma because the Inquisitor was a blood mage.

This can't happen, because it doesn't happen in those playthroughs, where the Inquisitor is not a blood mage. One of the key principles in maintaining continuity from game to game is that player choices can't have significant consequences.

[KainD]

yes, the darkspawn magister who assaulted the heavens, tries to kill you, killed thousands of people, leads a fanatical cult, and more than willing to slaughter his own supporters, isn't a villain

Basically.

[KaiserShep]

Basically.

Except that's basically villain to the letter, unless the argument is that villains simply don't exist, a notion that would be quite insane.

[KainD]

Except that's basically villain to the letter, unless the argument is that villains simply don't exist, a notion that would be quite insane.

Yeah, I'm insane.

[Gilbert Salarian]

This can't happen, because it doesn't happen in those playthroughs, where the Inquisitor is not a blood mage. One of the key principles in maintaining continuity from game to game is that player choices can't have significant consequences.

 

Being a blood mage doesn't necessitate any response, though, that was my point.  Continuity is still maintained.

[Jouni S]

Being a blood mage doesn't necessitate any response, though, that was my point.  Continuity is still maintained.

And my point was that a blood mage as the Inquisitor doesn't make any more sense than Revan as the Inquisitor and Yoda as Corypheus. Just because the previous games had badly written blood magic doesn't mean that BioWare should have made DA:I deliberately worse by including equally bad blood magic.

[Gilbert Salarian]

And my point was that a blood mage as the Inquisitor doesn't make any more sense than Revan as the Inquisitor and Yoda as Corypheus. Just because the previous games had badly written blood magic doesn't mean that BioWare should have made DA:I deliberately worse by including equally bad blood magic.

 

We've laid out scenarios that would make sense that don't necessitate a rewrite of the current story, nor does it diminish DA:I, nor hamper future stories.  Your response seems to be "Ah yes, 'reasons'...we have dismissed that claim."

[Jouni S]

We've laid out scenarios that would make sense that don't necessitate a rewrite of the current story, nor does it diminish DA:I, nor hamper future stories.  Your response seems to be "Ah yes, 'reasons'...we have dismissed that claim."

The problem with those scenarios is that they're based on wishful thinking and best-case circumstances. They assume that the blood mage, who could be hated and mistrusted by their closest advisors and companions, somehow still rises to essentially become the Inquisition. They assume that the companions always overcome their prejudices against blood magic and the fears that the blood mage Inquisitor will eventually become a villain comparable to Corypheus. They assume that the companions are incompetent and short-sighted enough to not come up with a feasible plan to get rid of the blood mage before it's too late.

[Uccio]

The problem with those scenarios is that they're based on wishful thinking and best-case circumstances. They assume that the blood mage, who could be hated and mistrusted by their closest advisors and companions, somehow still rises to essentially become the Inquisition. They assume that the companions always overcome their prejudices against blood magic and the fears that the blood mage Inquisitor will eventually become a villain comparable to Corypheus. They assume that the companions are incompetent and short-sighted enough to not come up with a feasible plan to get rid of the blood mage before it's too late.

 

You are just grasping straws. If a open qun spy can operate in the Inq without interference then a blood mage can definitely be part of it.

[Jouni S]

You are just grasping straws. If a open qun spy can operate in the Inq without interference then a blood mage can definitely be part of it.

If one thing doesn't make sense, it's entirely ok to add more things that don't make sense? Let's add your blood mages then, and I'll get my Revan and Yoda.

[Uccio]

If one thing doesn't make sense, it's entirely ok to add more things that don't make sense? Let's add your blood mages then, and I'll get my Revan and Yoda.

 

As long as you are trying to use logic to defend not having blood magic in the Inq you are doing a massive hand wave at the gigantic qun in the living room. Not going to fly.

[draken-heart]

As long as you are trying to use logic to defend not having blood magic in the Inq you are doing a massive hand wave at the gigantic qun in the living room. Not going to fly.

 

Honestly, unless they planned to add healing spells with it, it makes little sense to try to add it in. Reaver makes little sense, it should have been berserker.

 

Or, maybe they decided not to use Blood Magic just to add a new specialization for no reason. Devs are morons that way.

[KainD]

And my point was that a blood mage as the Inquisitor doesn't make any more sense than Revan as the Inquisitor and Yoda as Corypheus. Just because the previous games had badly written blood magic doesn't mean that BioWare should have made DA:I deliberately worse by including equally bad blood magic.

Origins actually had blood magic written best.