547 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

It is. I can see her boobies.

 

I'd say OP's pics are more NSFW

[Terodil]

Unless you consider this widely available magazine's cover to be an adult content then ... [snip]

Eh. Don't be fooled by Honourable Bigot's nefarious ploy to mislead you.

WE'RE ON TO YOU, BIGOT!

[Terodil]

Ideal situation would be where power fantasies and sexual fantasies meet I guess, but that seems to be hard to achieve in way that everyone is satisfied. You see, Cassandra is power fantasy to me, but many feel like that she isn't enough sexual fantasy for  them the way she is and want to Bioware to not make characters like her so that they could have their sexual fantasies (well sexual fantasy can be bit strong here, but just think it as attractive female character). Truthfully, I doubt any art take of any character could satisfy everyone in terms of different fantasies ^^;

Well they don't need to match for a *single character*. When *you* play, you pick Cassie for enjoying that specific kind of fantasy. If *others* play, they should be *able* to pick another companion (not necessarily Cass!) to enjoy their particular fantasy (I agree, 'sexual' is a bit much, perhaps 'desire to look at a damn hot companion' is better). Or you could both pick both characters at the same time to enjoy several fantasies at once. Why not? In this respect Bioware did worse than in previous installations that had a wide[r] range of companions -- IMO obviously. For me personally, there was no companion that could fill the shoes of DA:O's Leliana or Morrigan, DA:KW's Isabela, ME's Jack or Miranda, or KoTOR's Bastila (esp. with Svösh's robes mod  ).

 

As an aside, I really don't understand why, say, Isabela or Miranda, just to pick two, apparently (?) cannot be power fantasies for women. They were both incredibly kick-ass, strong, independent (well, Isabela more so than Miranda in ME2) women, both with interesting personalities and complexity. Does looking fantastic invalidate them as candidates for power fantasies or for anything more than being called 'bimbo'?

[Panda]

Well they don't need to match for a *single character*. When *you* play, you pick Cassie for enjoying that specific kind of fantasy. If *others* play, they should be *able* to pick another companion (not necessarily Cass!) to enjoy their particular fantasy (I agree, 'sexual' is a bit much, perhaps 'desire to look at a damn hot companion' is better). Or you could both pick both characters at the same time to enjoy several fantasies at once. Why not? In this respect Bioware did worse than in previous installations that had a wide® range of companions -- IMO obviously. For me personally, there was no companion that could fill the shoes of DA:O's Leliana or Morrigan, DA:KW's Isabela, ME's Jack or Miranda, or KoTOR's Bastila (esp. with Svösh's robes mod  ).

 

As an aside, I really don't understand why, say, Isabela or Miranda, just to pick two, apparently (?) cannot be power fantasies for women. They were both incredibly kick-ass, strong, independent women, both with interesting personalities and complexity. Does looking fantastic invalidate them as candidates for power fantasies or for anything more than being called 'bimbo'?

 

I disagree that Bioware changed their approach and overall I think Bioware wants to provide different characters with different charms. Vivienne as well, who has as much cleavage as Morrigan or Isabela. And you can see more nudity from Cass than you ever could from Leliana, actually Bioware has more nudity in this game than their previous one's for both male and female characters, but they have put most of it into romance scenes.

 

I think you are proposing would be another character in the game, that would have more at least immediate sexual appeal? Well I'm not against such character if she was designed as thoughtfully as Isabela. However it was Bioware's artistic desicion to go with these character this time.

 

I think Isabela and Miranda can be power fantasies as well, not mine really, Cass is most close mine from Bioware so far, but I think they are someone's, both characters have lot of female fans after all

[Innsmouth Dweller]

see now... Cass' look perfectly fits her personality, she's far too practical to wear chainmail bikinis. Isabella is a free spirit and a very strong woman, her outfit also seems to fit her perfectly. the same goes for Vivienne - she is stunning, there is grace in that cleavage, i'm telling you.

 

when i look at the archer OP describes along with Cass, i see a left-handed (which is inconsistent with quiver placing), incompetent hunter wannabe, who recentely decided to change her career of porn star/nude model to something more interesting. by looking at her, without knowing her personality i don't find her strong, nor interesting, i find her ridiculous and disgusting

 

tbh, i'm kind of pissed when a game* shows me something like her and says 'hey, check this out. she's hot, ain't she?' instead of 'hey, it's a hunter who can join your party, she can use bows and crossbows. she's a city elf and andrastian'.

 

*) i'm pointing at you, Witcher series! i'd love you but you are unbearable for me to play!

[Terodil]

I disagree that Bioware changed their approach and overall I think Bioware wants to provide different characters with different charms. Vivienne as well, who has as much cleavage as Morrigan or Isabela. And you can see more nudity from Cass than you ever could from Leliana, actually Bioware has more nudity in this game than their previous one's for both male and female characters, but they have put most of it into romance scenes.

I love Vivienne. The problem I personally had was that several people where I felt the 'package' of looks and character appealed were NOT available as LIs. Vivienne and Leliana. (I understand the dramatic reasons for the decision for both, but it's just... bah). In fact, I would doubt either of them would even qualify as 'very close friends' even after their personal quests (which would have been enough for me, see below).

You may not believe me but nudity is not very high on my list of priorities, actually. I am personally in the 'fade-to-black is good' faction, not because I take offense, but rather that I'm simply not that interested. So I don't really care about the amount of screen seconds that you can see Cass's behind!

I find it a bit sad that whenever the concept of 'beauty' is mentioned, people seem to immediately link 'sexual interest', hence the countless 'go ******', 'pixelated boobs' etc. comments. I don't know how to properly phrase this, but I hope I get this across: I'd love to have a stunningly attractive female companion with a strong personality that I can somehow relate to (actually, strike the female -- a male would do too, though imo BW sort-of provided one with Cullen (only an advisor, ), who ended up as my Femquisitor's romance in my hiterto only playthrough). If it ends in a sex scene, a fade-to-black or simply something else entirely does not really matter (to me). Example: Jack in ME2. How I loved Jack with all her quirks, and the pitch black spots, and I'm still supremely annoyed at BW that they gated her (again!) to male only. For me the tender scene in the bed with Maleshepard was sublime -- I know they had sex but that was irrelevant. Her tear wasn't. It was her step back from the brink of clinical insanity into a life that wasn't all 'just survive, kill first'. That was true beauty. (I know that some feminists claim that that plot turn was sexist -- 'she just needed to get banged to be saved' --, but I didn't read it like that at all. The closeness mattered, not the sex (which is supported by the fact that if you 'bang' her 'too early', she will dump you entirely), and if anything that's why I would have loved her to be available to both Shepards.) At the risk of being called a softie, I actually cried when I saw that scene.

[Panda]

I love Vivienne. The problem I personally had was that several people where I felt the 'package' of looks and character appealed were NOT available as LIs. Vivienne and Leliana. (I understand the dramatic reasons for the decision for both, but it's just... bah). In fact, I would doubt either of them would even qualify as 'very close friends' even after their personal quests (which would have been enough for me, see below).

You may not believe me but nudity is not very high on my list of priorities, actually. I am personally in the 'fade-to-black is good' faction, not because I take offense, but rather that I'm simply not that interested. So I don't really care about the amount of screen seconds that you can see Cass's behind!

I find it a bit sad that whenever the concept of 'beauty' is mentioned, people seem to immediately link 'sexual interest', hence the countless 'go ******', 'pixelated boobs' etc. comments. I don't know how to properly phrase this, but I hope I get this across: I'd love to have a stunningly attractive female companion with a strong personality that I can somehow relate to (actually, strike the female -- a male would do too, though imo BW provided one with Cullen). If it ends in a sex scene, a fade-to-black or simply something else entirely does not really matter (to me). Example: Jack in ME2. How I loved Jack with all her quirks, and the pitch black spots, and I'm still supremely annoyed at BW that they gated her (again!) to male only. For me the tender scene in the bed with Maleshepard was sublime -- I know they had sex but that was irrelevant. Her tear wasn't. It was her step back from the brink of clinical insanity into a life that wasn't all 'just survive, kill first'. That was true beauty. (I think some feminists claim that that plot turn was sexist -- 'she just needed to get banged to be saved' -- I didn't read it like that at all. The closeness mattered, not the sex (which is supported by the fact that if you 'bang' her 'too early', she will dump you entirely), and if anything that's why I would have loved her to be available to both Shepards.)

 

I think looks are more subjective than sex appeal though, since quite often sex appeal can be easily increased by reducing clothes Though I'm not saying only bare skin is sexy, but seeing OP's pictures he seems to want to increase Cass sex appeal by having her in underwear like clothing ^^; Overall I wouldn't say DAO and DA2 had better looking women than DAI.

[Terodil]

I think looks are more subjective than sex appeal though, since quite often sex appeal can be easily increased by reducing clothes

I think you're on to something there. And/or maybe I'm just weird. Sex appeal for me does NOT work like that. At all. A fully clothed beautiful woman is just as sexy as the same woman naked. A not-so-beautiful woman does not get sexier by removing clothes.

 

Clothes themselves can be sexy or not though, and underline the beauty of their wearer. To come back to Cassie, a full plate armor set is not sexy. Nor does it need to be, I agree. But that's not what I'd pin Cassie's own sex appeal on.

[SnakeCode]

Dunno. I'm pretty certain I'm further away from what is generally considered 'the typical man' than most. That said, I can't stand Rambo-types. I don't identify with them, I don't feel a 'power fantasy', and I don't find them attractive either. They are one of the reasons why I generally don't watch Rambo-esque movies or why I never play a male protagonist in games that allow me to pick a female one.

I do not, however, feel the need to run around and clamor for getting such stuff (morally) banned 'because sexist' or 'because indecent' or whatever other ridiculous argument pops up in such discussions. In fact, I don't begrudge men the option to enjoy a '(power) fantasy' (any kind of fantasy) or straight women or gay men to simply enjoy the looks of them. Quite the contrary, they should be able to do so and if games don't offer such choices they are the lesser for it, imo. The same applies for women too. Women should be able to enjoy their (power) fantasies, and straight men or homosexual women to enjoy the looks of them. I'll never stop railing against sexism that tries to paint choice as something inherently evil because it is 'wrong', 'sexist', 'indecent', yadda yadda, see above.

By way of example, I'll explode both at men laughing at Isabela and calling her '****' (wha? so she likes being promiscuous, if she were a man you'd congratulate him for being such a 'stud', congrats for having shitty double standards) and at women rolling their eyes and calling her **** or a 'sexist 16-yo-boy-fantasy' (wha? so you don't like her clothing and sexual potential? guess what, some women do, who are you to tell them how to behave. I thought you were fighting for women to make their own choices. But apparently they're only allowed as long as they conform to *your* standards). Sigh. Happens in MMOs all the time too. If there was one word that should earn people an auto-fist-to-the-face then it is the word 's-l-u-t'. *rages*

 

Exactly, I also find it to be a cop out when we hear the muscular man = male power fantasy line.  It's also just a coincidence that women tend to find fit and (if not overly) muscular characters attractive is it? These are the kind of people that would have Barbie banned because she sets un unreasonable standard for women to look up to, whilst keeping every male equivalent looking like He Man.

 

It's a silly argument because there are so many men that have no desire to look like that, it's also extremely limiting as to what a power fantasy actually is, and operates under the illusion that guys get to live out theirs more than women do in videogames.  

 

For example, I know i'm not alone when I say I get a far bigger kick out of trying to save the world  than I do playing through the eyes of an "attractive" character or someone with beach muscles, in that sense i'm living out more of a power fantasy playing as Lara Croft than I do playing as Kratos, who by the way is an almost naked muscular man. 

[SardaukarElite]

As an aside, I really don't understand why, say, Isabela or Miranda, just to pick two, apparently (?) cannot be power fantasies for women. They were both incredibly kick-ass, strong, independent (well, Isabela more so than Miranda in ME2) women, both with interesting personalities and complexity. Does looking fantastic invalidate them as candidates for power fantasies or for anything more than being called 'bimbo'?

 

If anyone can find something they like and look up to in those characters then that's cool. The problem is that a lot of female characters are designed to be sexually attractive to a male audience before anything else, and they have to be like that all the time. To take your examples, Isabella and Miranda are capable, interesting characters but they don't 'look fantastic' when it suits them, or makes sense, or in a way which is about them, they just happen to have sexualised default appearances - combat appearances. Zevran meanwhile - who positively breathes sexuality - is dressed in normal leather armour, because it is assumed we can read his sexuality from more subtle clues than just skin. Miranda shouldn't need to wear an arsesuit and war heels whenever she goes into battle for us to register as a good looking woman.

[Shechinah]

I always disliked Miranda's non-loyalty suit due to the fact that it made me flinch so often when the scenes cut to her behind because it looked like it rode up something fierce and it just did not look comfortable. Then again, maybe it was buttocks-shaped and so less unpleasent?

[TheRatPack55]

Would anyone still consider that hypothetical handsome, well-muscled and half-naked video game man a 'power fantasy' for male gamers if he had been consistently introduced via ass-shots and closeups of his lovingly rendered and detailed crotch-bulge (with bonus jiggle-physics!), and kept referring to his frequent sex encounters with both sexes, and/or hit on a male PC (the horror!)?

 

Because that's how video game women supposed to be female 'power fantasies' (by gamers themselves at least, because developers don't even bother to advertise them as anything like that usually) often are depicted.

[Terodil]

The problem is that a lot of female characters are designed to be sexually attractive to a male audience before anything else, and they have to be like that all the time.

Uh.

1. Some women find those two attractive too. Some men don't find them attractive at all.

2. You cannot establish that there is indeed one criterion that supersedes others. Every character is a package of attributes, and both of these have 'stunningly beautiful' in the package, along with 'brilliant mind' for Miranda, or 'cheeky' for Isabela, along with many, many others (their history, motivations, ...). If you consider one criterion (beauty) more important than others that's your prerogative, of course, but it's hardly representative or indicative of anything.

3. It is often implied (by you and others) that somehow being sexually attractive makes an NPC or a person less valuable. How so? If we agree that not being a stunner by itself neither makes people less of a man or woman, nor less lovable, then how can being gifted by nature make them any less valid as characters (NPCs) or less lovable people?
 

To take your examples, Isabella and Miranda are capable, interesting characters but they don't 'look fantastic' when it suits them, or makes sense [snip]

Technical limitation. Cullen doesn't have a bad hair day either. Blackwall always looks as if he hasn't had his cup of coffee for the day yet. Are you seriously arguing for that level of detail in a computer game that has limited models and textures? (I would personally rather have ONE good hair day for my protagonist.)
 

Miranda shouldn't need to wear an arsesuit and war heels whenever she goes into battle for us to register as a good looking woman.

You're trying to carry owls to Athens. I specifically said that the outfit doesn't make the wearer any sexier or any less sexy, and this kind of generalising assumption is getting both tiresome and offensive. Miranda could probably make a potato sack look sexy.

Do I think that Miranda's default outfit is sexy? Hell yes. Do I mind it not being realistic? No. You don't like it? Fair enough, switch her to her heavy armor looks. Everybody is happy.

[In Exile]

Exactly, I also find it to be a cop out when we hear the muscular man = male power fantasy line.  It's also just a coincidence that women tend to find fit and (if not overly) muscular characters attractive is it? These are the kind of people that would have Barbie banned because she sets un unreasonable standard for women to look up to, whilst keeping every male equivalent looking like He Man.

 

It's a silly argument because there are so many men that have no desire to look like that, it's also extremely limiting as to what a power fantasy actually is, and operates under the illusion that guys get to live out theirs more than women do in videogames.  

 

For example, I know i'm not alone when I say I get a far bigger kick out of trying to save the world  than I do playing through the eyes of an "attractive" character or someone with beach muscles, in that sense i'm living out more of a power fantasy playing as Lara Croft than I do playing as Kratos, who by the way is an almost naked muscular man. 

 

I don't know where you're getting the idea that women find huge, jacked dudes attractive. While I'm sure such women exists, the general attitude I've seen is that women generally much prefer e.g. Bratt Pitt in fight club to Hughe Jackedman in Days of Future Past. Which is to say cut over buff/jacked. 

 

Anyway - and not that I necessarily disagree with your point that it's not some universal that men want to look like they're hobbies include abusing steroids and HGH - the idea behind "power fantasy" is that it reflects some societal idea, not an aggregate of every person's ideal. 

[Panda]

Exactly, I also find it to be a cop out when we hear the muscular man = male power fantasy line.  It's also just a coincidence that women tend to find fit and (if not overly) muscular characters attractive is it? These are the kind of people that would have Barbie banned because she sets un unreasonable standard for women to look up to, whilst keeping every male equivalent looking like He Man.

 

It's a silly argument because there are so many men that have no desire to look like that, it's also extremely limiting as to what a power fantasy actually is, and operates under the illusion that guys get to live out theirs more than women do in videogames.  

 

For example, I know i'm not alone when I say I get a far bigger kick out of trying to save the world  than I do playing through the eyes of an "attractive" character or someone with beach muscles, in that sense i'm living out more of a power fantasy playing as Lara Croft than I do playing as Kratos, who by the way is an almost naked muscular man. 

 

I simply disagree. If you look something like Dragon Ball, He-man, some superhero comics from DC and Marvel (like Superman and Batman), those are in my opinion clearly more male power fantasy than something that was designed in women in mind. I'd say something more close to Final Fantasy is what lot of women find more attractive than muscular and topless bodies.

 

I think this is much closer to women's fantasies: http://kaijupop.com/...ldren_cloud.jpg

 

Than this: http://www.internati...uk/h/heman2.jpg

 

You can see lot of topless male characters in entertainment aimed for boys especially if it's action or fighting. I'm not saying that the power fantasy is very good model or one that satisfies everyone though, but popular media usually follows stereotypes when designing something for demographics, sometimes they work and sometimes not.

 

And I believe I was discussing this in terms if Iron Bull is topless, because it's sexy to female gamers or because he seems more powerful like that. I'm leaning towards latter, he's topless, because it fits to character trope of barbarian fighter, similarly as He-man. I don't really think he's topless to boost his sex appeal ^^;

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ah, double standards. I've missed you. 

[SnakeCode]

I don't know where you're getting the idea that women find huge, jacked dudes attractive. While I'm sure such women exists, the general attitude I've seen is that women generally much prefer e.g. Bratt Pitt in fight club to Hughe Jackedman in Days of Future Past. Which is to say cut over buff/jacked. 

 

Anyway - and not that I necessarily disagree with your point that it's not some universal that men want to look like they're hobbies include abusing steroids and HGH - the idea behind "power fantasy" is that it reflects some societal idea, not an aggregate of every person's ideal. 

I said fit and (if not overly) muscular. What about that lead you to believe I meant jacked? 

[In Exile]

I said fit and (if not overly) muscular. What about that lead you to believe I meant jacked? 

 

Because we were talking about Hugh Jackman circa DoFP, and more generally, the "male power fantasy" line, which is always a reference to comically buff dudes? Male power fantasy isn't a reference to lithe, attractive, cut men (unless you're in Japan). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Perhaps because in plenty of societies, people will see a topless man outside and think "maybe it's hot outside" or even just "seriously dude?" Meanwhile seeing a topless woman outside and it's "call the police, it's public indecency". Thedas doesn't seem any different, since Isabela gets frap for having a skimpy outfit. Morrigan too (her 'covered in eels' banter with Sten). I haven't noticed any similar ones about topless men (like Bull).

 

Maybe if topless women wasn't treated like nudity and sexual irl, there wouldn't be such a big deal about it in games/TV/films. Same goes with 'near nudity' (e.g. a breast strap/bikini top).

Personally I think if women have to wear shirts outside, so do men. Bare breasts are bare breasts. 

[FKA_Servo]

Nobody should be required to submit to the tyranny of shirts.

 

Pants, too.

[Grieving Natashina]

Nobody should be required to submit to the tyranny of shirts.

 

Pants, too.

I apologize, but as a very long time MST3K fan, this came to mind.

 

[SnakeCode]

Because we were talking about Hugh Jackman circa DoFP, and more generally, the "male power fantasy" line, which is always a reference to comically buff dudes? Male power fantasy isn't a reference to lithe, attractive, cut men (unless you're in Japan). 

 

Were we? I certainly wasn't, I never even mentioned him. That was you, after my initial post. As to comically buff dudes being a male power fantasy. That's something I always se women telling men what their fantasy is, I've never actually seen a guy admit to this being the case however. Either IRL, or on the internet.

 

It seems to me to be yet another case of people telling men what they like and how they think. I think many people would actually be surprised if they were to actually ask people instead of telling them what they like. 

[TheRatPack55]

Some research data under a spoiler cause wall of text.

 

Spoiler

Since both the majority of playable video game characters and video game players are male, it could be assumed that an unrealistic male body image would be widespread within the medium and have a strong influence on its audience. Interestingly, an in-depth content study of male video game characters revealed that although the majority were larger than an average American male, they also did not reflect the idealized male body image propagated by mainstream media such as television, movies and popular magazines. The study showed that, unlike most female video game characters, male avatars did not possess unattainable proportions, and were is some aspects, such as the chest-to-waist ratio, even below the stereotypical ideal. In fact, the conclusions drawn from the research suggested that a disparity between body proportions of the examined samples of video game characters’ and real males’ measurements resulted from the increasing obesity rates among American males, rather than from the virtual characters being rendered with unrealistic or unnatural proportions (Martins, Williams, Ratan, and Harrison, 2011:48).

 

Additionally, male video game characters are very rarely presented as overly sexualized. An analysis of gaming magazines showed that nearly as much as sixty percent of female characters depicted within were over-sexualized, and less than one percent of male characters were presented in a similar manner. Among real people whose pictures appeared in these magazines, mainly video game developers and players, less than four percent were regarded as stereotypically hyper-masculine, while almost forty percent of females depicted were considered beautiful, and over twelve percent as sexualized. In addition, the attractive women pictured were often treated as a ‘decorative element’, playing the role of a trophy girlfriend for a male gamer (Dill and Thill, 2007:858).

 

[roadrunnerNM]

I would like to point out for the benefit of a certain poster before posting what I am going to post that it is not spam.  It is a relevant and exhaustive response since a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

Now that that is out of the way, my stock exhaustive and relevant response to Cassandra criticisms:

 

 

Deal.With.It.

 

Bioware, please continue doing your wonderful job of merging realism with fantasy.  Roly greatly approves.

 

I don't know, Roly, I think that picture shows off her eyes better. Also her nose and mouth. Yeah, great rebuttal. Case closed.