547 réponses à ce sujet

[trevelyan_shep]

I don't understand the need to over-sexualize female characters more than they already are in most games. Cassandra is fine just the way she is, thanks.

[DirkJake]

 

 

And I believe I was discussing this in terms if Iron Bull is topless, because it's sexy to female gamers or because he seems more powerful like that. I'm leaning towards latter, he's topless, because it fits to character trope of barbarian fighter, similarly as He-man. I don't really think he's topless to boost his sex appeal ^^;

 

 

I am no female gamer (but a gay gamer). He-man's sex appeal is very close to zero. And I find Bull being topless not sext at all (luckily I can craft more "appropriate" armor for him), but at least it does make sense for him.

[Terodil]

 

TBH I got lost with all this talk about male power fantasies. It's kinda funny how you tell me what my fantasies are supposed to be, yet I have never had a power fantasy to begin with, neither with a six-pack and unclad nor without a six-pack and in full metal plate armor. And tbh I find the likes of Kratos just repulsive, whether he gets an ass-shot or a full body pic. I don't mind either guys or gals liking him though, whether because of his natural looks or his quasi-armor. Not my business and such a non-issue that it'd be ridiculous to go campaigning for less Kratos / more Kratos armor because I / most men can't reach whatever standards he allegedly sets.

[SardaukarElite]

You're trying to carry owls to Athens. I specifically said that the outfit doesn't make the wearer any sexier or any less sexy, and this kind of generalising assumption is getting both tiresome and offensive. Miranda could probably make a potato sack look sexy.

 

  Oh dear.

 

I imagine these claims are getting tiresome if you're looking for them everywhere. I didn't say anything about what you thought of the outfits. I didn't say no women found the characters attractive nor that all men found them attractive. I had no intention to imply that sexually attractive characters were worth less, and I'm pretty sure I didn't.  I want sexually attractive characters, but I want more thought to be given to their design than putting them in a heeled catsuit or taking their pants off and calling it a day.

 

The point I'm making is that it isn't common to see women in games depicted as being sexually attractive in a way that isn't stupidly overt. Visually that is. There isn't a woman in Dragon Age who is neck to toe in plate but has fabulous hair and is really proud of that and does what she can to be attractive within the confines of also being a cool knight (realistic knight or stupidly over the top cool knight).

 

You mentioned Cullen as having perfect hair all the time as an example of how technical limitations prevent what I'm asking for, but Cullen is what I'm asking for, as a woman. A woman whose appearance is made attractive around the battle gear, rather than before it.

[SnakeCode]

  Oh dear.

 

I imagine these claims are getting tiresome if you're looking for them everywhere. I didn't say anything about what you thought of the outfits. I didn't say no women found the characters attractive nor that all men found them attractive. I had no intention to imply that sexually attractive characters were worth less, and I'm pretty sure I didn't.  I want sexually attractive characters, but I want more thought to be given to their design than putting them in a heeled catsuit or taking their pants off and calling it a day.

 

The point I'm making is that it isn't common to see women in games depicted as being sexually attractive in a way that isn't stupidly overt. Visually that is. There isn't a woman in Dragon Age who is neck to toe in plate but has fabulous hair and is really proud of that and does what she can to be attractive within the confines of also being a cool knight (realistic knight or stupidly over the top cool knight).

 

You mentioned Cullen as having perfect hair all the time as an example of how technical limitations prevent what I'm asking for, but Cullen is what I'm asking for, as a woman. A woman whose appearance is made attractive around the battle gear, rather than before it.

 

I agree with this, I don't think anyone is on opposite sides here. Some of us would just like some consistency and not have it be dismissed as a male power fantasy when the shoe is on the other foot. Iron Bull is not a male power fantasy.

 

We hear the term "fighting **** toy" being paraded about and being linked to characters like Lara Croft, Bayonetta and Ivy Valentine, Iron Bull actually fit's the trope far more so than nearly any female character I can think of. It will automatically be dismissed however because IB happens to be a guy.

[In Exile]

Were we? I certainly wasn't, I never even mentioned him. That was you, after my initial post. As to comically buff dudes being a male power fantasy. That's something I always se women telling men what their fantasy is, I've never actually seen a guy admit to this being the case however. Either IRL, or on the internet.

It seems to me to be yet another case of people telling men what they like and how they think. I think many people would actually be surprised if they were to actually ask people instead of telling them what they like.

Did you not read the previous posts taking about this point in the thread? People were quite literally posting pictures of Hugh Jackman and in terms of DAI we were talking about the musclebound IB.

On the power fantasy front, this is not an issue of women talking to men. It's an academic theory (and a really poor one at that) trying to explain the different portrayals of men and women in media. It's wrong because it entirely ignores the perspective of most men on this issue and the body image issues that follow. Intellectually it conflates the fact that it's not about sexualisation with some notion that its meant to be empowering. I've been (to no avail) trying to challenge this frustrating view whenever it comes up.

So like I said: I agree with you fundamentally on the point, just not strictly on your description of the source of this (clearly wrong) theory.

[Terodil]

  Oh dear.

No need for that 'smiley'.

We are indeed d'accord, because I will sign
 

I want sexually attractive characters, but I want more thought to be given to their design than putting them in a heeled catsuit or taking their pants off and calling it a day.

in a second. In fact, this is more or less a rewording of what I wrote about Isabela and Miranda. Reducing them both to their beauty *only* does them a disservice. I'm saying this looking at both sides of the fence; I'd be sorry to learn that the majority of men looked at them as mere ornaments (I certainly don't), but I'm also sorry to see them dismissed by women simply because they're beautiful, as some have indeed done in this thread.
 

There isn't a woman in Dragon Age who is neck to toe in plate but has fabulous hair and is really proud of that and does what she can to be attractive within the confines of also being a cool knight (realistic knight or stupidly over the top cool knight).

I'm not sure where you're going with this; is this an illustration or a criticism? because I'd love a beautiful and kick-ass warrior in plate mail and with fabulous hair, proud of what she does etc.!

(Snark incoming: In fairness, nobody in DA has fabulous hair.)

Miranda actually fits that picture pretty well. She is extremely confident -- with good reason! --, she's proud of what she does, she is beautiful AND kicks major ass. You can even make her run around in the ME equivalent of a tin can if you choose to, though I'm not sure if that isn't a DLC, could be. Though I would actually argue that it makes sense for her to wear what she does (well minus the heels, perhaps, but then she isn't a melee fighter but ranged with both biotics and guns, and she's even deadlier in an HQ posting than on the battlefield). She's a perfectionist, and she would not be caught in a potato sack, or without eyeliner, for that matter. Ever. And not because she wants to look pretty for a man, but because she wants to, full stop!
 

You mentioned Cullen as having perfect hair all the time as an example of how technical limitations prevent what I'm asking for, but Cullen is what I'm asking for, as a woman. A woman whose appearance is made attractive around the battle gear, rather than before it.

I think we're talking over crossed wires again. I thought you called it unrealistic that NPCs would ever look the same, so if an NPC is beautiful she always is, and bad moods or inopportune timing etc. never show...? Because I agree that Cullen is a great LI!

[DomeWing333]

The point I'm making is that it isn't common to see women in games depicted as being sexually attractive in a way that isn't stupidly overt. Visually that is. There isn't a woman in Dragon Age who is neck to toe in plate but has fabulous hair and is really proud of that and does what she can to be attractive within the confines of also being a cool knight (realistic knight or stupidly over the top cool knight).
 
You mentioned Cullen as having perfect hair all the time as an example of how technical limitations prevent what I'm asking for, but Cullen is what I'm asking for, as a woman. A woman whose appearance is made attractive around the battle gear, rather than before it.

There does seem to be a bit of an odd perception that trying to look good and being a cool, respectable knight are somehow at odds with each other. I mean take Cullen for example. You listen to some of the things said about him in-game: comments about how he's just there to look pretty and making fun of him for styling his hair, and it's clear why BioWare thinks they should avoid having a fashionable female knight.

 

The other issue with it is that typical female fashion tropes (cleavage, long hair, hour-glass figure, heels, and skirts) do tend to be more difficult to implement in practical battle armor than typical male fashion tropes (broad shoulders, short hair, v-shaped torso, large frame, and the appearance of musculature).

[zestalyn]

We hear the term "fighting **** toy" being paraded about and being linked to characters like Lara Croft, Bayonetta and Ivy Valentine, Iron Bull actually fit's the trope far more so than nearly any female character I can think of. It will automatically be dismissed however because IB happens to be a guy.

I will dismiss IB from that trope not because he's a guy, but because he's a qunari. Qunari, from visual point of view, serve a niche group of people to begin with. Qunari are inhumanly enormous, with weird skin color, and uh... horns. To the layman, those things are way more distracting than the fact that he's shirtless, and I think alot of people can agree that none of those things particularly say 'sexy' lol..

[Panda]

Hmmh, I think male power fantasy is discussed more as it appears in media than what demographic truly sees as ideal. My point is that I don't think Iron Bull is shirtless to boost his sexual appeal like I said previously, I think it follows trope of ultra-masculine warriors. If you search: barbarian from google, you get outfits close to his.

[DomeWing333]

I will dismiss IB from that trope not because he's a guy, but because he's a qunari. Qunari, from visual point of view, serve a niche group of people to begin with. Qunari are inhumanly enormous, with weird skin color, and uh... horns. To the layman, those things are way more distracting than the fact that he's shirtless, and I think alot of people can agree that none of those things particularly say 'sexy' lol..

I don't know, "Tall, dark, and horny" seems like it'd be a pretty good OkCupid profile.

[TheRatPack55]

I don't know, "Tall, dark, and horny" seems like it'd be a pretty good OkCupid profile.

 

 

I will dismiss IB from that trope not because he's a guy, but because he's a qunari. Qunari, from visual point of view, serve a niche group of people to begin with. Qunari are inhumanly enormous, with weird skin color, and uh... horns. To the layman, those things are way more distracting than the fact that he's shirtless, and I think alot of people can agree that none of those things particularly say 'sexy' lol..

 

Point still stands... 

[Rannik]

 

Sociology is always fun  

[Panda]

<snip>

 

Sociology is always fun  

 

I doubt anyone here is saying that women don't find topless men or muscles attractive at all. That doesn't mean everytime man without shirt is aimed for women and it's supposed to post sex appeal of the guy. It it was so it wouldn't make any sense for things that are aimed to boys have topless men in them. There is popular trope of powerful men having tons of muscles and showing them also in fights, I think this trope is less popular nowdays than before, but it's the power fantasy people are talking about and this is why I still don't think Iron Bull is shirtless to boost his sex appeal in the game. I think it's just to show that he's strong and careless qunari, who charges into battles without caring about scars. I think it's to give him this "barbarian" stylish feel as well.

[TheRatPack55]

 

Sociology is always fun  

 

Tell me something, do you really believe the developers of, say, Gears of War, or the aforementioned God of War created their characters with a female audience in mind? That they thought 'Hmm, we wanted the PC to be a skinny average guy, but think of all the female players we're gonna lose, no, we must make him buff to appeal to their tastes!' ?

 

You do realize the manner of presentation matters? Please show me the men in the games presented in the manner these female characters are:

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Terodil]

Can somebody remind me please what we are actually discussing about?

 

I thought the topic was whether games should offer a choice of outfits to appeal to different tastes.

 

Now we have somehow arrived at a competition of 'who has it worse' (I'm sorely tempted to 'contribute' a rant about the disposable nature of men in video games), we are discussing some obscure concept of male power fantasies, we are theorising about what may or may not have been a primary design goal of NPCs, etc., and everybody seems to be talking to themselves.

[Lady Artifice]

I apologize, but as a very long time MST3K fan, this came to mind.

 

 

Nobody should be required to submit to the tyranny of shirts.

 

Pants, too.

 

Servo is the best bot.  

[Panda]

Can somebody remind me please what we are actually discussing about?

 

I thought the topic was whether games should offer a choice of outfits to appeal to different tastes.

 

Now we have somehow arrived at a competition of 'who has it worse' (I'm sorely tempted to 'contribute' a rant about the disposable nature of men in video games), we are discussing some obscure concept of male power fantasies, we are theorising about what may or may not have been a primary design goal of NPCs, etc., and everybody seems to be talking to themselves.

 

Topic originally isn't that if you look OP, from that the topic seems to be that should Bioware go to more "artistic" style (meaning more attractive and sexy) for female characters over realistic that OP feels they are going for with DAI.

[TheRatPack55]

Can somebody remind me please what we are actually discussing about?

 

I thought the topic was whether games should offer a choice of outfits to appeal to different tastes.

 

Now we have somehow arrived at a competition of 'who has it worse' (I'm sorely tempted to 'contribute' a rant about the disposable nature of men in video games), we are discussing some obscure concept of male power fantasies, we are theorising about what may or may not have been a primary design goal of NPCs, etc., and everybody seems to be talking to themselves.

 

Nope, the OP wanted women in DA (and other games) to be more sexualized. Some people who agree with him try to defend their opinion by claiming men in DA (and other games) are sexualized. Which is bs. There.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I thought the topic was whether games should offer a choice of outfits to appeal to different tastes.

The answer to that topic is yes they should. 

[Terodil]

Yeah, in any case the thread has blown up to the point of not being recognisable any more

 

I think I'm out now. Somehow discussions about simple matters of taste end up as political battlefields that don't help anybody. If anything, they create confrontations where we should work together.

 

I maintain that having options is better than trying to boil everything down into a mush that fails to please anybody. I agree that there are issues for both sexes (btw you get no quarrel from me that some of Miranda's ass-shots were ridiculous, but that's not a matter of character design but camera direction), but I think we'll never solve those by blowing up a discussion about wardrobes.

 

(PS @RatPack: So what? Men may not be as sexualised as women in computer games, yes. Instead, they are cannon fodder. Would you like to swap? -- my point is... this has devolved into a pissing contest.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Nope, the OP wanted women in DA (and other games) to be more sexualized. Some people who agree with him try to defend their opinion by claiming men in DA (and other games) are sexualized. Which is bs. There.

I don't agree with the OP, but there are men in games, Bioware games included, who are sexualized. 

[DomeWing333]

Tell me something, do you really believe the developers of, say, Gears of War, or the aforementioned God of War created their characters with a female audience in mind? That they thought 'Hmm, we wanted the PC to be a skinny average guy, but think of all the female players we're gonna lose, no, we must make him buff to appeal to their tastes!' ?
 
You do realize the manner of presentation matters? Please show me the men in the games presented in the manner these female characters are:
 
-snip-

Not that I disagree with the general point but Solid Snake's stupid sexy ass is easily on par with Miranda's. That's just what happens with skin-tight jumpsuits.

[TheRatPack55]

Not that I disagree with the general point but Solid Snake's stupid sexy ass is easily on par with Miranda's. That's just what happens with skin-tight jumpsuits.

 

I'd say MGS is a... special series overall. That said, there is still plenty of female sexualization in it to balance the catsuit out, and I dare say there are more closeups of EVA's or Naomi's breasts then there are deliberate ass-shots of Snake, if any.