547 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanth]

I'll keep repeating this like a broken record, but The Iron Bull isn't sexualized any more than Kratos is sexualized. Or maybe I'm just not feeling the sexy because he is ugly to me. Still, I don't remember a single scene outside of romance focusing on TIB's buttocks or package. An exposed male chest is not sexualization in and of itself. The only male sexualization moment in DAI could be Cullen in the optional Wicked Grace scene, and that's basically treated as a gag, not titillation for female audience.

 

I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. How can you even say that with a straight face? His body is way way way exaggerated and unrealistic, in my opinion beyond that of the exaggeration of the women in the OP; he walks around almost naked for most armour choices; and his manner and bearing is incredibly suggestive. And I haven't even mentioned all the "ride the bull" references.  Like I said, it is not really a problem for me, but you don't get it both ways - you can't complain about the objectification of women in the fantasy genre and then condone the portrayal of Iron Bull. 

[Panda]

I remember it well. It was in the thread where someone had taken offense to a "naked" female form sitting atop one of the staff designs. You didn't, however support it, what you actually said was killing women isn't the same as killing men because women are victims. Which I found so silly I chose to not reply to.

 

No, I didn't and I wasn't talking about that thread, it's older thread that was in Story and character part, I can't remember what it was about, but we talked about Witcher in that one among other things. If you think that was my argument I think you misunderstood it. I think as canon fodder it'd be nice to have counter-balance, since it's positive to me to see women who are enemy characters than negative.

[Panda]

1. Some posters feel that female NPCs are expected/demanded to be sexier than their male counterparts. And/or
2. Some posters feel that NPCs in general should not be sexy.

Am I right with trying to condense it thus?
 

 

1. Yes, but not really in DA series in my case, I think DA is pretty equal in it's treatment of genders, but in my opinion some seems to be against that like OP.

2. Depends on art style, I don't think more sexier style, at least in point of what OP posted next to Cassandra would fit to Bioware's story and art style.

 

Let's see, I'll continue to answer bolding your texts, hope it's okay so I can focus on certain points:

 

Then looking at the two reasons...

ad 2: taking this one first, because it's easy. That's a matter of taste in video games in general and definitely not of sexism. You can agree, you can not agree. Fine.

ad 1: There are two possible responses.

 

1a. Bring down *all* female NPCs to the level of perceived unsexiness as their male counterparts (which is the same response as when you agree with 2).
1b. Elevate *some* male NPCs to the level of perceived sexiness as their female counterparts.

 

ad 2: Disagree.
ad 1: Both are equally good to me, but doesn't fit to Dragon Age where I think there is balance already, at least in my opinion.


So my question is: Why does the majority of opponents (of the OP) request 1a, when they could just as well request 1b, provided that they are not (possibly also) falling into group 2 (against sexiness in VG in general)? Speaking as a man, I would be perfectly fine with a thread asking for a, dunno, Zhevran-style semi-unclad companion. Why not? In fact, I'm actually strongly in favour of giving women the same level of eye-candy as men, anything else would indeed be unfair; and if there have to be ass-shots at all, then said semi-clad male eye candy should get a share too. So why don't we see more 'give us a prettier male LI' threads from you, ladies? Are you happy with what you got? Is it just not important enough for you to make such a thread?

 

The thing is that I don't think Dragon Age should be sexied-up, I think that would go against style that Bioware is going with. There is already lot of games that go very sexy, why would Bioware need to go more that way too with DA?

The fact that these threads all tend to grow to dozens of pages and then end up in the bin seems to indicate that it is important to you, though. But then again, I have to ask: Why not simply start another thread with some input for BW to create guys you can feel more attracted to, if you're currently unhappy? And if you are happy, then why not accept that others (either other women or men) are not and would wish for something different?

 

I'm rather happy, but this is discussion forum and OP wants to change DAI into something I'd think is horrible and I'll comment about it ^^

[M_Helder]

Reality VS Fantasy

 

I personally prefer fantasy over realism.  Dragon Age I & II were both fantastical in their art direction.

 

 

 

You've misspelled boobs mora than once, my friend.

 

But seriously though, if you want an adult fantasy go check The Witcher franchise instead. Satisfaction in more than one aspect is 100% guaranteed.
 

In terms of art design, I do agree that Dragon Age has become a Jersey Shore parody with cliched phrases and plastic hair. But I guess that's mostly due to the Frostbite Engine 3. 
What can I say, apparently the people in charge of the franchise didn't get what made Origins an instant classic. 

 

Thankfully, Witcher 3 is coming any day now to remedy the state of the dark, gritty and realistic RPGs. 

[Terodil]

@Panda: Fair enough if you are against a sexier DA in general, but then I don't know why this whole thing devolved into a sexism debate.

Also, again, there's no clothes at all -- few clothes -- some clothes -- many clothes -- tin can -- gramma's woolen christmas sweater and another 50 shades in between. I personally wouldn't like the slider right at the left. But something in between would be nice, because DA:I definitely moved towards the right compared to previous installations, I can't remember seeing anything like



in DA:I. And I liked that outfit, realism be damned =(

Why can't I get that as one option along with all the stinky christmas sweaters?

[SnakeCode]

I'll keep repeating this like a broken record, but The Iron Bull isn't sexualized any more than Kratos is sexualized. Or maybe I'm just not feeling the sexy because he is ugly to me. Still, I don't remember a single scene outside of romance focusing on TIB's buttocks or package. An exposed male chest is not sexualization in and of itself. The only male sexualization moment in DAI could be Cullen in the optional Wicked Grace scene, and that's basically treated as a gag, not titillation for female audience.

 

 

How about instead of the option to beat up prostitutes they give us sensibly armored female mooks alongside the already present sensibly armored male mooks?

 

No more sexualised than Kratos? Come now, your bias is showing. Camera angles aren't the only thing that sexualise a character, but you already know that. It's his posture, it's his manner, it's the things he says. I also like how you specified outside of romance because you know that there are suggestive camera angles when it comes to IB. As I said before IB is basically a "fighting **** toy' if ever there was one, he's the walking talking embodiment of that trope. Being large and horned doesn't cancel that out, or are we going to argue that She Hulk or the Asari aren't supposed to be sexy as well? It's amusing to see the mental gymnastics people are using to try and convince themselves and others that IB isn't overtly sexualised.

 

 

What has that got to do with my post? It would look very odd to see women dressed in full plate in GTA don't you think? All joking aside, yes it would be nice, but that wasn't what I was saying. Devs can't win, because people cry sexism either way.

[xkg]

Sexism - a joke word. Lost all of its power during past few years. Whenever I see it, it's just a sign there is no more rational discussion to be had because other side run out of arguments.

 

Same as for example "true RPG". If any given game has any RPG elements in it and you don't like it - "not true RPG". Synonym of "I don't like it"

 

Sexism - If there is something, anything, that you don't like and you can even remotely somehow put the blame on men - call it sexism. New synonym for "I don't like it".

 

Yeah, some of you people overusing it mad it completely meaningless. Good job.

[TheRatPack55]

I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. How can you even say that with a straight face? His body is way way way exaggerated and unrealistic, in my opinion beyond that of the exaggeration of the women in the OP; he walks around almost naked for most armour choices; and his manner and bearing is incredibly suggestive. And I haven't even mentioned all the "ride the bull" references.  Like I said, it is not really a problem for me, but you don't get it both ways - you can't complain about the objectification of women in the fantasy genre and then condone the portrayal of Iron Bull. 

 

He wears giant clown pants. His head is peanut-sized, as discussed in another thread. Even if someone finds his proportions attractive, I stand by my opinion - 'male attractiveness' isn't 'male sexualization' unless I can see a detailed package and butt. I demand crotch shots.

 

No more sexualised than Kratos? Come now, your bias is showing. Camera angles aren't the only thing that sexualise a character, but you alreadny know that. It's his posture, it's his manner, it's the things he says. I also like how you specified outside of romance because you know that there are suggestive camera angles when it comes to IB. As I said before IB is basically a "fighting **** toy' if ever there was one, he's the walking talking embodiment of that trope. Being large and horned doesn't cancel that out, or are we going to argue that She Hulk or the Asari aren't supposed to be sexy. It's amusing to see the mental gymnastics people are using to try and convince themselves and others that IB isn't overtly sexualised.

 

 

What has that got to do with my post? It would look very odd to see women dressed in full plate in GTA don't you think? All joking aside, yes it would be nice,but that wasn't what I was saying. Devs can't win, because people cry sexism either way.

 

What I said above. Romance doesn't count, because everyone gets sexualized in sex scenes, women and men. Sex will do that, you know. You see as much female boob as male butt in DAI.

 

And I'm saying that the way to go for developers is to give us female mooks similar to male mooks, in general. Not 'you can beat up policemen and female prostitutes'. Then no sexism is involved.

[Panda]

@Panda: Fair enough if you are against a sexier DA in general, but then I don't know why this whole thing devolved into a sexism debate.

 

It's about portraying female characters in sexy and revealing clothes, but male characters not and also going against art styles that have female characters in non-revealing clothing like it's something bad or unattractive that Bioware has to chose go with this way.

[Terodil]

@RatPack and Panda: The simple reason we're not discussing sexy male characters so far is that 1- the OP was a straight man. As am I, so I cannot presume to know what exactly you would be looking for if you wanted a sexy male companion; and 2- that none of the female posters here, including yourselves, has actually come up with something constructive if you wanted both sexes to be treated the same (I think apart from a brief episode that went under in the sexism debate).

So far all I've seen you do is put down people asking for a sexy/sexier female companion. Why not even the score by coming up with the ideal male NPC that's pleasing to your eyes? There's nothing wrong with wanting eye candy from time to time.

I can understand not wanting a sexier DA in general, that's fine. But please stop complaining about men being interested in female NPCs and yelling sexism for that alone. Instead, I humbly suggest talking about what you / women would find interesting / hope to see in male NPCs that's currently not there.

[TheRatPack55]

@RatPack and Panda: The simple reason we're not discussing sexy male characters so far is that 1- the OP was a straight man. As am I, so I cannot presume to know what exactly you would be looking for if you wanted a sexy male companion; and 2- that none of the female posters here, including yourselves, has actually come up with something constructive if you wanted both sexes to be treated the same (I think apart from a brief episode that went under in the sexism debate).

So far all I've seen you do is put down people asking for a sexy/sexier female companion. Why not even the score by cmoing up with the ideal male NPC that's pleasing to your eyes? There's nothing wrong with wanting eye candy from time to time.

I can understand not wanting a sexier DA in general, that's fine. But please stop complaining about men being interested in female NPCs and start talking about what you / women would find interesting / hope to see in male NPCs that's currently not there.

Conjecture: The opposition to such a thread would be significantly less than to this thread.

 

Excuse me? Does your straight male gaze just selectively blind you to my repeated loving descriptions of big packages and ass-shots on attractive bisexual men?

 

Also, I'm tired and I need to get off the net, so I can't grace you with my personal fantasies atm, but if anyone starts such a thread and manages not to make it off-topic or another battlefield, I'll happily contribute.

 

PPS: Just one more general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular:

Imagine Mass Effect. Imagine the Asari being exactly as they are, with one minor difference - they're a monogendered male race. Recall all Asari encounters in the games (the Consort, anyone?). Imagine the reaction of the majority of straight male gamers. Watch the universe implode.

 

But since they're female, it's a-ok, right? Who cares how straight female gamers feel about them.

 

Well, tell you what - in that case, I want male 'Asari' in my games. Make it happen, BioWare.

[Xetykins]

It's about portraying female characters in sexy and revealing clothes, but male characters not and also going against art styles that have female characters in non-revealing clothing like it's something bad or unattractive that Bioware has to chose go with this way.

Out of genuine curiosity. How would you dress the male DA characters to make them even with female sexualization? Like, would you dress Zev in a slutty pvc? Dont get me wrong, I rather like the idea of watching Alistair, Cullen and even Sten half naked when they go to battle. But that would also break my immersion greatly.

I also wont mind seeing a male desire demon. But I an't begin to imagine how they will do it. Elephant pouch instead of tooty tassle?

[Panda]

Out of genuine curiosity. How would you dress the male DA characters to make them even with female sexualization? Like, would you dress Zev in a slutty pvc? Dont get me wrong, I rather like the idea of watching Alistair, Cullen and even Sten half naked when they go to battle. But that would also break my immersion greatly.

I also wont mind seeing a male desire demon. But I an't begin to imagine how they will do it. Elephant pouch instead of tooty tassle?

 

I think in DAI they are pretty much even already. Zev already shows his tights depending on armour, some outfits show cleavage.. although I think some mage robes in DAO went overboard for this for both sexes, but at least they look equally outrageous ^^;

 

Male desire demon would have been nice, but it seems like Bioware instead of making that choose cut desire demon design entirely, I guess that's easier, but I wouldn't have preferred it. I think some fanartist have had some takes on what would fit as look of male desire demon like this (NSFW): http://bluewickedbeh...demon-384916698 so Bioware could have done something similar ^^

[Grieving Natashina]

I also wont mind seeing a male desire demon. But I an't begin to imagine how they will do it. Elephant pouch instead of tooty tassle?

Loin cloth.  

 

I wanted to add something:  I have no problem with some companions and NPCs scantly clad.  I took Isabela seriously, and all the cleavage in the world doesn't change that.  Funny thing is that she tends to get hit like someone wearing a lack of armor.  She's very much a Glass Cannon.  I use constitution as her dump stat once I get her dex and her cunning to where I want it to be (edit: Varric suffers from much of the same problem and I use the same approach with him.)  I also feel her look suited her character, and would not have suited, say, Merrill or Aveline.  It works for a pirate rogue.

 

Going into ME2, I also took Jack very seriously despite her lack of a top.  Frankly I thought that anyone in the ME universe that dressed like that was dangerous.  She has the skills to back it up too (bowling for Husks using Shockwave for the win.)  Again, that outfit suits the character and her background.  I do think that Miranda's catsuit really didn't fit the character well (not to mention that god awful Butt-Cam,) but that's what alternative appearance packs are for.  I would have preferred no catsuit at all (in other words, I'd rather have her in armor ala the alt appearance packs,) but I don't sweat it too much.

 

Edit: I also wanted to mention that I have no issues with the original Desire Demons returning.  I figure that the devs didn't include them because those kinds of demons aren't the fighting type.  They'd probably try to stay as far away from tears in the Veil as much as possible.  I doubt they are gone for good and I also doubt any sort of feminist agenda caused their removal.  I'm a feminist and I didn't give a crap about the desire demons, the brothels and the prostitutes.  I used the brothel in NWN, and had a 3-some with 'Bela in DA:O, so I'm not one to judge.  I didn't use the brothel in DA2 because I didn't find any of the workers attractive.  <shrug>  

 

So I'd like to see them return in the next game. However, it would be nice to see a male version as well.

[Xetykins]

Loin cloth.  
 
I wanted to add something:  I have no problem with some companions and NPCs scantly clad.  I took Isabela seriously, and all the cleavage in the world doesn't change that.  Funny thing is that she tends to get hit like someone wearing a lack of armor.  She's very much a Glass Cannon.  I use constitution as her dump stat once I get her dex and her cunning to where I want it to be (edit: Varric suffers from much of the same problem and I use the same approach with him.)  I also feel her look suited her character, and would not have suited, say, Merrill or Aveline.  It works for a pirate rogue.

Same. Scantly clad females does not bother me as long as it fits their personality and background. The first thing I noticed about Isabella was not her clothes or lack thereof, but the cheeky personality. Although, later on I kept on hoping she won't do backflips. Same with Morrigan, thank god there's no back flips in dao.

[Terodil]

I like the last posts! Thank you!
 

Also, I'm tired and I need to get off the net, so I can't grace you with my personal fantasies atm, but if anyone starts such a thread and manages not to make it off-topic or another battlefield, I'll happily contribute.

Nice quip, let me quip back: You would have to derail your own thread. Or get me to make a ruckus about why your thread about sexy male NPCs didn't include sexy women.

But in seriousness, I could not. That would take one of you.
 

[snip] Imagine the Asari being exactly as they are, with one minor difference - they're a monogendered male race. Recall all Asari encounters in the games (the Consort, anyone?). Imagine the reaction of the majority of straight male gamers. Watch the universe implode. But since they're female, it's a-ok, right? Who cares how straight female gamers feel about them.
 
Well, tell you what - in that case, I want male 'Asari' in my games. Make it happen, BioWare.

I know what you mean, and I agree: a- the universe would implode... or explode... <Mordin voice> mental picture... unpleasant </M v>, probably, considering the insane amount of crap that got thrown around following Dorian. That was certainly not a proud moment for my consexuals. b- It is unfair to straight female gamers. Yes. And just for that reason I'll even resist the urge to nitpick from a lore perspective! *hnnng* So yeah, here's a vote for a 'male' mono-gendered species that has large packages and gets their fair share of ass-shots in one of the next BW games.

I still want at least that pretty light armor set back though. >.>

[Grieving Natashina]

Same. Scantly clad females does not bother me as long as it fits their personality and background. The first thing I noticed about Isabella was not her clothes or lack thereof, but the cheeky personality. Although, later on I kept on hoping she won't do backflips. Same with Morrigan, thank god there's no back flips in dao.

 

The first thing I noticed about Isabela was that little smirk before she wipes the floor with Lucky.  I knew I was going to like her.  As far as watching her backflips, I'm usually either playing a mage busy with Fireballs/anything from the Gravity tree (which they completely gutted this game, with the gravity spells spread between the Rift and KE trees) or an archer busy with Arrow Volley.  So I guess I didn't notice.  

[Hazegurl]

I don't get why we can't have both female types or a variety of female types.  Some women just have big boobs and like to show them off, others like to keep them covered.  I think it sucks that desire demons were excluded from the game in an attempt to not offend.  There's a place for women like Cass and Isabella. One doesn't have to excluded.  Sadly, I think we'll be seeing less diverse women in DA future titles.  As a trade off we may see more diverse male characters.

 

As for IB. I think he's fugly but he is supposed to be the hypersexualized hyper masculine male.  And just look at Cullen, his entire existence is to be fawned over by women...and men. And yeah, his nakedness may had been treated as a gag, but it also meant to be oogle material. Just look at all the slow mo gifs and pics of him naked and running away.

[zestalyn]

Out of genuine curiosity. How would you dress the male DA characters to make them even with female sexualization? Like, would you dress Zev in a slutty pvc? Dont get me wrong, I rather like the idea of watching Alistair, Cullen and even Sten half naked when they go to battle. But that would also break my immersion greatly.

I also wont mind seeing a male desire demon. But I an't begin to imagine how they will do it. Elephant pouch instead of tooty tassle?

The closest I've seen for this is the Avvar male uniform in Jaws of Hakkon. I haven't played the DLC myself, but apparently this is what the dudes wear:


source

If I'm not mistaken, the Avvar tribes are from the snowy mountains, which further proves the impractical skin exposure trope. I don't mind though lol.......

The most they did this in Mass effect is Thane. Like, what purpose does that plunging neckline serve lol

[Xetykins]

If I'm not mistaken, the Avvar tribes are from the snowy mountains, which further proves the impractical skin exposure trope. I don't mind though lol.......

Well, looks like in the middle of summer on those screenshots. And, I deffo don't mind too! In fact I might just get me that DLC that i avoided like a plague :-p

[Wulfram]

The most they did this in Mass effect is Thane. Like, what purpose does that plunging neckline serve lol

Medical reasons.

(Really, that's the in game reason)

[Panda]

The closest I've seen for this is the Avvar male uniform in Jaws of Hakkon. I haven't played the DLC myself, but apparently this is what the dudes wear:

<snippity snip>
source

If I'm not mistaken, the Avvar tribes are from the snowy mountains, which further proves the impractical skin exposure trope. I don't mind though lol.......

The most they did this in Mass effect is Thane. Like, what purpose does that plunging neckline serve lol

<snip>

 

Lol those Avvar uniforms look like mods someone has made. I have to admit that they are sexualised Probaply female Avvars have something similar? Idk, I haven't played it either.

 

In Thane's case canonically I think low-cut was supposed to help him breath/keep him more dry? Since he had that sickness. But that one was likely designed female PC in mind, taking in mind how his whole race was (at least that's the info ME wiki gives on Drells). They did good job with that I think and I don't think Thane was taken too far ^^

[Dreamer]

I'll keep repeating this like a broken record, but The Iron Bull isn't sexualized any more than Kratos is sexualized. Or maybe I'm just not feeling the sexy because he is ugly to me. Still, I don't remember a single scene outside of romance focusing on TIB's buttocks or package. An exposed male chest is not sexualization in and of itself. The only male sexualization moment in DAI could be Cullen in the optional Wicked Grace scene, and that's basically treated as a gag, not titillation for female audience.

 

How about instead of the option to beat up prostitutes they give us sensibly armored female mooks alongside the already present sensibly armored male mooks?

 

As a man who has had to deal with the pressures of socially-constructed concepts of beauty, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not keep repeating this ridiculousness. The male chest (as a result of pronounced muscle mass) is indeed a sexual feature; I encourage you to read about "secondary sex characteristics." The simple version is that differences in the sexes become selected as "ornaments" which are preferred and seen as desirable.

 

I realize that modern concepts of feminism and the push to "think of the skimpy armor!" has led many to believe that only women can be sexualized, but I assure you, when a man takes off his shirt in media, he's not doing it because they want you to think it's warm outside. The key is to stop treating the male and female body as equal in terms of how they're viewed; a trait which makes a woman attractive to some men is not guaranteed to attract some women to men with the same trait.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lol those Avvar uniforms look like mods someone has made. I have to admit that they are sexualised Probaply female Avvars have something similar? Idk, I haven't played it either.

No, they don't. The female Avvar are wearing this: 

[DanteYoda]

Okay, not sure what the point of that was.  So, folks that want to turn off the helm graphics and wear otherwise practical armor are exactly the same as those that want to have a flashy style that looks like a cover of Heavy Metal magazine?  I'm a little puzzled.  

 

I'm not giving you a hard time, but I would like you to explain a little more where you are coming from.

I guess i play fantasy to get out of reality not for reality, maybe that's where the disconnect lays, Different camps expecting different things out of their games.