547 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

Terodil is right though. Yes the creators don't have any input on how you view their creations, but you certainly don't get to decide what their intent was either.

 

It's also laughable that you gave Inquisition as an example of a game that was balanced in terms of sexualised characters per gender. It is incredibly skewed, it's just that it's in the opposite direction to what we normaly see. We have Dorian, Iron Bull and Cullen as examples of overtly sexualised males, whilst for females we have.....? Having almost every female npc wrapped up in thick furs, chantry robes or full plate, and having many male npcs baring their abs does not a balanced representation make. 

 

Also, having more male companions does not make Bioware sexist. If anything it logically ensures that there will be more romance options for women and gay guys (which was the case in Inquisition, at least for straight gals.)  This is the kind of thing I was talking about before when I said that devs just can't win. They have more male companions, so people accuse them of being sexist and not wanting to represent various female characters who are distinct and varied. Had they had more female companions (and straight guys had got the lion's share of romance content, like with the ME trilogy) people would have said that they were pandering to the straight male gaze. It seems you're sexist  damned if you do and sexist damned if you don't.

 

I guess you did not read my post. You are making a hyperbole out of nothing.

[zestalyn]

So than, again, tell me - for whose benefit did the developers of God of War decide to 'sexualize' Kratos so much?

 

Cause I still think the naked, muscled male chest can easily be presented as an attribute of strength and power, without any sexualization involved. The same can't happen with a naked female chest, precisely because of the different ways they are viewed.

Agreed. For example - I seriously don't think there are that many women who really find your generic comic book superhero figure actually attractive, as in 10/10 'would bang'. More like 10/10 'scary as sh*t don't touch me'. Seriously, soo many chicks I know find those hulky massive super muscular chests very unappealing. Most women gravitate towards leaner muscular bodies, i.e. Olympic swimmers, soccer players, or supermodels. Not heavy weightlifters or something crazy looking like that.

Yet alot of these comic book artists are men, who are infamous for drawing their dudes as super massive, heavy weightlifting types, clearly to show off the character's strength and masculinity despite being unappealing to conventional female taste, and drawing their women as...you know...having broken spines to show off the obligatory boobs and butt pose with their grapefruit-sized assets, which is commonly enjoyed by dudes from a sexual point of view. I stopped reading comic books several years ago, so maybe times have changed.. but probably not enough to have really diminished this stereotype (as Eschergirls.tumblr.com has so fervently shown me, lol...)

 

I had no idea that the hypocrisy spread to the DLC as well, since I have not played it. Yet more double standards. Thanks for pointing this out. 

You are welcome, except I personally would not consider this a very convincing example of double standard in video game sexualization. Across all mediums of entertainment/marketing, the practice of making men look more sexually appealing than what realism calls for does not happen nearly as often as it happens to female figure. In this case, Bioware notably deviates from its peers in the kind of attention they show to hetero-female tastes. IMO, if you take Bioware out of the picture, there is alot less 'double standard' in the world of video games.

To me, the frequency of this happening between male and female figures matters, because women endured a longer and more intense history of objectification, which has always fed into the sexist construct of our society, and therefore will always be more disenfranchised by this sort of thing than their male counterparts ever will be.

[Dreamer]

Agreed. For example - I seriously don't think there are that many women who really find your generic comic book superhero figure actually attractive, as in 10/10 'would bang'. More like 10/10 'scary as sh*t don't touch me'. Seriously, soo many chicks I know find those hulky massive super muscular chests very unappealing. Most women gravitate towards leaner muscular bodies, i.e. Olympic swimmers, soccer players, or supermodels. Not heavy weightlifters or something crazy looking like that.

Yet alot of these comic book artists are men, who are infamous for drawing their dudes as super massive, heavy weightlifting types, clearly to show off the character's strength and masculinity despite being unappealing to conventional female taste, and drawing their women as...you know...having broken spines to show off the obligatory boobs and butt pose with their grapefruit-sized assets, which is commonly enjoyed by dudes from a sexual point of view. I stopped reading comic books several years ago, so maybe times have changed.. but probably not enough to have really diminished this stereotype (as Eschergirls.tumblr.com has so fervently shown me, lol...)

 

Lots of projection and anecdotal evidence here...

[zestalyn]

Lots of projection and anecdotal evidence here...

 

 

So one has to have quantitative data to support TheRatPack's point of view? Sorry to disappoint you. I'm just a girl, who used to love comic books, grew up with alot of girlfriends, and read up on alot of opinions on print and online, and I'm just telling you what I've seen, and know alot of girls like. If anyone's got their own anecdotal evidence to prove the opposite of what I said, by all means, I'd be glad to hear it because I like being surprised. I am here for open discussion, after all.

As for the facts, yes it is true that most comic book artists are men. And the Eschergirls.tumblr.com blog does a good job of gathering abundant evidence of out-of-context female sexualization in pop culture, especially from comic books. Since the number of male comic book creators (that includes artists, writers, etc) outnumber female creators nine to one it's safe to speculate that a good amount of the comic book-related evidence collected by Eschergirls were created by male artists

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So...is your disagreement that sexing up a non-sexual character for the sole purpose of fan-service is okay? Or that interweaving sexuality into a character is bad?

No, my disagreement is the criteria I think has to be met before it can be considered negative sexualization is different than the criteria you think has to met before it can be considered negative sexualization. 

 

For example, I think that as long as the outfit serves a practical purpose than it is not sexualization, but rather that any such sexualization that occurs from it is a possibly unintentional or innocent side effect. You have shown to disagree. Or it is not sexualization if it is a part of their character, which we have agreed on, albeit to different extents. 

 

So this was a simple difference in personal criteria that got too heated. I apologize for any rudeness on my part. 

[DomeWing333]

If anyone's got their own anecdotal evidence to prove the opposite of what I said, by all means, I'd be glad to hear it because I like being surprised. I am here for open discussion, after all.

 Well for starters, here's some 450-odd pages of anecdotal evidence that plenty of women (and men) do enjoy big hulking muscley men. 

No, my disagreement is the criteria I think has to be met before it can be considered negative sexualization is different than the criteria you think has to met before it can be considered negative sexualization. 
 
For example, I think that as long as the outfit serves a practical purpose than it is not sexualization, but rather that any such sexualization that occurs from it is a possibly unintentional or innocent side effect. You have shown to disagree.

That something has a practical purpose does not mean that it can't be used for sexualization. Nudity has practical purposes in allowing a character to bathe or change from one outfit to another, but in contexts for which that practical purpose is not being served or when that practical purpose seems to be used as merely an excuse, it can of course be used to sexualize a character.

 

I don't mind Samus's Zero Suit when it's featured in an appropriate practical context (although it's difficult to imagine an appropriate practical context for wearing heels in a spacesuit). If it were used about as much as the Spartan under-armor you were talking about, that would probably be fine with me. When I mind is when it's used as a visual treat for gamers for completing the game really fast and especially when it's made to be half of her representation in a fighting game. It's like putting Batman in a fighting game as a fighter alongside an alternate "Swimsuit Batman." It's just dumb fan service.

[zestalyn]

 Well for starters, here's some 450-odd pages of anecdotal evidence that plenty of women (and men) do enjoy big hulking muscley men. 

Fair enough, but I wonder how much they represent popular taste proportionally. For instance, what if you held a popularity contest between IB, Dorian, Cullen, Alistair, etc based on sex appeal? I would not be surprised if IB's fans are vastly outnumbered by the other respective fans who represent more conventional hetero-female tastes in their choice.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

That something has a practical purpose does not mean that it can't be used for sexualization. Nudity has practical purposes in allowing a character to bathe or change from one outfit to another, but in contexts for which that practical purpose is not being served or when that practical purpose seems to be used as merely an excuse, it can of course be used to sexualize a character.

 

I don't mind Samus's Zero Suit when it's featured in an appropriate practical context (although it's difficult to imagine an appropriate practical context for wearing heels in a spacesuit). If it were used about as much as the Spartan under-armor you were talking about, that would probably be fine with me. When I mind is when it's used as a visual treat for gamers for completing the game really fast and especially when it's made to be half of her representation in a fighting game. It's like putting Batman in a fighting game as a fighter alongside an alternate "Swimsuit Batman." It's just dumb fan service.

*notices that you ignored my offered olive branches* 

 

Ignoring everything else for a moment, what's wrong with there being fanservice? I never got how that is a negative thing in things that are supposed to bring enjoyment to the people experiencing it. Fanservice is supposed to mean "something for the fans to enjoy" but has come to mean "Things other people enjoy but I don't thus it is wrong". Why do the people who like something you don't have their likes less valid than your likes? It's sad that what is supposed to be entertainment for everybody has come to this, really. 

 

To use your Batman swimsuit example and assuming I was against it, I may not like it, but as long as people enjoy it who am I to say it shouldn't exist? Especially since it is optional. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, it shouldn't matter.

[TaHol]

For me it is impossible to see Iron Bull as a sexualized character. He is so darn ugly. I don't think many female gamers look at him and think "well what a wonderful chest let me tap that one". From where we come to my point: men don't know what women like, and when we tell them they still stubbornly argue against it. I say this as a grown up woman who has witnessed this world and relationships for over 40 years. I have discussed this with men, and all men have told to me that they can't say if a man looks good or not for women (I'm talking about hetero-men ofc). Women on the other hand can easaly say if a other women are beautiful or not.

 

I can't recall any woman who has said they like body-builders. I go for effiminate type anyway, but so does many other women too. Most women like men who has a normal bodytype, some muscles, not too much fat. If only men with huge muscles would have been seen as sexually atractive by women there wouldn't be many human beings left. Womans biggest sexual organ is brains. We seek very different things in men than what men think. Because men are typically (I have witnessed this enough myself thank you very much) sexually exited about what they SEE, they don't get that women are not like that. I admire a beautiful man from bottom of my heart, but it does not mean I would want to sleep with him. He might be jerk. He might smell wrong. He might be arrogant. He might be stupid. All things that are a huge turn-off for me. Beautiful face wouldn't help much there.

 

I think that all those bare-chested muscular characters are made by men, for men. FOR MEN. It is their hidden dream to be like that. It has nothing to do with women.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I wonder where this forum would be if we got a male equivalent of Isabela.

 

As in "an Impractically dressed character" or her character to a T just genderswapped? Because I'd be down with that if we're talking the latter. Most Bioware characters I like are the "fun, but not annoying" types - Zevran, DA:A Anders, Varric, Isabela. As opposed to Sera, who is quite literally nails on a chalkboard.

 

You have no idea how ticked off I got when Bioware took a sledgehammer to Anders in DA2 and just wrecked the character. Because Awakening Anders, Varric, and Isabela as a party would've been about the best thing ever. Just for the banter alone.

 

As far as the topic goes - I really wish Bioware would just pick a side and stick with it. DAO was pretty typical fantasy with slight exaggerations - Warhammer-esque pauldrons, the gaps in the leather armors, etc. DA2 was "everything needs to be edgier" and DAI is this weird mix of "we want to be realistic" with "we want to be kind of stupid, too".

 

Likewise, characters returning in new artstyles will always be controversial - Alistair and Zevran looked like they had aged twenty years and gained fifteen pounds in the face in DA2. Varric doesn't really look that much like he did in DAI, and Cassandra's entire facial structure is different, plus added scar out of nowhere. Morrigan and Leliana are pretty samey, Cullen got an upgrade, and Loghain found the friggin' Fountain of Youth.

 

The artstyle in general in DAI bothers me because Bioware doesn't know what it wants to be. For every character like Cass who is more "realistic", you have Vivienne's boob window (that disappears the second you give her a new outfit), and Iron Bull's "Movie Conan cosplay" outfit. Iron Bull having a bare chest and jiggling manboobs doesn't bother me, but that outfit somehow counting as Heavy Armor does. Unless he's got a permanent force field, anyone want to explain to me how that works?

 

It's odd because the backgrounds and environments are beautiful, even on the "we didn't bother putting any effort into this port" 360 version. Everything else is just so hit and miss. There are only a handful of decent armor looks, because everything either has a leather coat or is painted beige somewhere. There are so many leather coats it makes me wonder if DAI is actually in the matrix, and someone at Bioware must've ran out of other colors to use, because there's too damn much beige. The pajamas are beige. Some of the armors are beige. Some of the coats are beige. The armor they stick you in for the "founding the Inquisition" cutscene is silver/steel with beige pads.

 

All in all, artistically, DAI feels like nobody was on the same page. I don't know if it's just how the development worked, or if they were trying to cater to different agendas, or what, but it's just a mess. I just wish Bioware would pick an aesthetic and stick with it. Make everything pretty, or everything "realistic", but stop flip-flopping every other game on this.

[DomeWing333]

*notices that you ignored my offered olive branches* 
 
Ignoring everything else for a moment, what's wrong with there being fanservice? I never got how that is a negative thing in things that are supposed to bring enjoyment to the people experiencing it. Fanservice is supposed to mean "something for the fans to enjoy" but has come to mean "Things other people enjoy but I don't thus it is wrong". Why do the people who like something you don't have their likes less valid than your likes? It's sad that what is supposed to be entertainment for everybody has come to this, really. 
 
To use your Batman swimsuit example and assuming I was against it, I may not like it, but as long as people enjoy it who am I to say it shouldn't exist? Especially since it is optional. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, it shouldn't matter.

I find peace offerings unnecessary when I never realized I was at war. (The real reason is I started responding before you edited that apology in. Accepted.)
 
Giving fans what they want is great, but not when it comes at a cost to the integrity of the art or character. Unlike you, I feel that giving Swimsuit Batman the same amount of attention as regular Batman would do a disservice to him. Because he's not one-half caped crusader, one-half fun-loving beach goer. He's BATMAN. Just as Samus didn't used to be one-half space bounty hunter, one-half girl in skin-tight blue jumpsuit. She was just Samus.

 

If that doesn't make sense to you, then I suppose our differences are intractable.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

 

I think that all those bare-chested muscular characters are made by men, for men. FOR MEN. It is their hidden dream to be like that. It has nothing to do with women.

For some men.  Not all straight (or bi/gay) men think alike anymore than all straight (or bi/lesbian) women do.  For some men, their hero is Gordon Freeman from Half Life (for example,) who's thin and pretty nerdy looking.  Someone that, despite a less-than-perfect-build, can still be a hero.  

 

I don't argue that there is far too many of the more "power fantasy" builds among the male characters, but this notion that this is what all men want is really silly.   If anything, I think a lack of diversity among male and female characters in most games is part of the reason why this whole debate exists.

[Panda]

Iron bull is sexualized I din't think someone need convincing to see it, he is male Isabela. Everyone make jokes about it. "ride the bull"

Alamarri are "naked" because they are barbarian. If someone think they are sexualized I dob't it was intended.

 

 I don't think Iron Bull is sexualised, I think his looks are all about brute strenght, but I think those Alamarri men are sexualised, I don't think their outfit design makes sense in the way it covers a lot, but doesn't chest

 

Terodil is right though. Yes the creators don't have any input on how you view their creations, but you certainly don't get to decide what their intent was either.

 

It's also laughable that you gave Inquisition as an example of a game that was balanced in terms of sexualised characters per gender. It is incredibly skewed, it's just that it's in the opposite direction to what we normaly see. We have Dorian, Iron Bull and Cullen as examples of overtly sexualised males, whilst for females we have.....? Having almost every female npc wrapped up in thick furs, chantry robes or full plate, and having many male npcs baring their abs does not a balanced representation make. 

 

Also, having more male companions does not make Bioware sexist. If anything it logically ensures that there will be more romance options for women and gay guys (which was the case in Inquisition, at least for straight gals.)  This is the kind of thing I was talking about before when I said that devs just can't win. They have more male companions, so people accuse them of being sexist and not wanting to represent various female characters who are distinct and varied. Had they had more female companions (and straight guys had got the lion's share of romance content, like with the ME trilogy) people would have said that they were pandering to the straight male gaze. It seems you're sexist  damned if you do and sexist damned if you don't.

 

Most of DAI's sexualisation is in romance scenes though, for both male and female characters. Except Josie ^^; I don't find male characters more sexualised than Cass, Vivi or Sera.

 

This seems a bit exaggerated. With the exception of Bull, who's perpetually topless, everyone is covered up by heavy robes and armor all of the time, unless you engage in a romance to the point of getting a sex scene. I guess there's Dorian's bare left arm.

 

I wonder where this forum would be if we got a male equivalent of Isabela.

 

Spoiler

 

It's not Isabela if it has pants!

 

 

As for current topic, I think most attractive feature of Iron Bull is his personality, that's what wins me over, I don't find him that attractive lookwise. He's bit like Garrus in that, too alien-looking, but has great personality that makes up to it.

[Terodil]

[snip] From where we come to my point: men don't know what women like, and when we tell them they still stubbornly argue against it. I say this as a grown up woman who has witnessed this world and relationships for over 40 years. I have discussed this with men, and all men have told to me that they can't say if a man looks good or not for women (I'm talking about hetero-men ofc). Women on the other hand can easaly say if a other women are beautiful or not. [snip]

I agree, that was exactly my point 3 or 4 pages back (yet I openly said that I (we?) don't know, so I don't know about "subbornly arguing". It seems quite evident to me that we can't know going by our own resources only). Yet to be frank, I have to say: How could this be? Why would there still be such a lack of understanding (if indeed there is, I think so too but I can't prove it obviously) if this has been a problem in the VG industry for a long time?

Judging by this forum, I can give you one very weighty reason: You (used in a general sense) don't speak up to tell developers what you want. Instead you tend to spend all your energy on trying to tell men why they shouldn't want what they want, in this case enjoy the looks of a sexy-looking female NPC, practical or not. That's why I suggested that you get vocal in a productive way, make threads about how you consider the LIs for straight females lacking, so that the situation can be remedied. Everybody should have something to be pleased at. What these threads tend to gravitate towards is the opposite: everybody is unhappy (women because they still don't get what they want, and men because they are told they're bad for wanting what they want and can no longer get it). (1)

Re the question of a male Isabela-equivalent: I believe I've clearly stated my opinion about that idea before, so the repeated question is kinda... repetitive. I'd be perfectly fine with it. I actually might romance that character with my female protagonist.


(1) For the sake of readability I did not include LGBTs in here. Please read my comment so it fits your shoe, too. The gist of my post naturally applies to you as well: You should be able to be happy with a LI.

[Xetykins]

men don't know what women like,

Quoted for truth. 16 years with my boyfriend and he still insist I like him more with longer hair, when in truth I always come after him with scissors and hair trimmer every month.

And yes, I personally don't find Iron Bull attractive physically. I'm more for the lean and mean type. But that does not mean I'm forever trying to hold on to my knickers to keep them from falling, when I see one of those. I do find Bull's personality attractive though, if you don't include the bedroom aspect of his personality :-)

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense, but there you go.

[TaHol]

For some men.  Not all straight (or bi/gay) men think alike anymore than all straight (or bi/lesbian) women do.  For some men, their hero is Gordon Freeman from Half Life (for example,) who's thin and pretty nerdy looking.  Someone that, despite a less-than-perfect-build, can still be a hero.  

 

I don't argue that there is far too many of the more "power fantasy" builds among the male characters, but this notion that this is what all men want is really silly.   If anything, I think a lack of diversity among male and female characters in most games is part of the reason why this whole debate exists.

Ofc I did not mean all men. I just feel it is too taxing (and especially when using foreign language) to remember to formulate every sentence that in mind. I would write very little if I had to remember to be so freaking neutral and polite. Belive me, writing anything takes good half an hour allready. I have this belief that people understand that I'm not so stupid that when I say "men" I mean every man in this planet. "Like" for reminding me of Gordon Freeman, though you don't see him that much in game, you just are him.

 

There are stereotypes. Too many people, men and women, believe in stereotypes. I have been too many times in situation where a man gets angry at me for not being stereotype woman. Literally angry. Literally hurt. It has happened so often I quite frankly don't know if I can take it anymore without throwing the man out of the door. At the same time, if stereotype is pointed out to person, telling him/her you are bringing stereotypes in this situation (which might be a situation where you expect to be treated as an human being, not an object), person gets angry because they believe the stereotype is their personal thruth. They are that deep ingrained. Takes concious mind to see through them. Few people are that concious. 

 

@Terodil

 

I understand where you come from. Though I'm not those women who demand less sexualized women. I think we (women generally) are so conditioned to not ask what we want, we then try to feel empowered by demanding that men don't get what they want either. I'm one of those women who drool after pretty men and take a lot of joy of them existing in this world, so I have no need for demanding that men don't get to see boobz. Sometimes I just feel that adding boobz just for adding boobz is juvinile, but I don't see that as a problem with BioWare games. That happens in the games where developers clearly has assumption that 99,99% of players will be men, aka shooters etc.

 

Women actually got fan-service in DAI, Cullen is that. He was wanted as a LI and now he is. I just want Zevran back.

[Panda]

I agree, that was exactly my point 3 or 4 pages back. Yet to be frank, I have to say: How could this be? Why would there still be such a lack of understanding (if indeed there is, I think so but I can't prove it obviously) if this has been a problem in the VG industry for a long time?

Judging by this forum, I can give you one very weighty reason: You (used in a general sense) don't speak up to tell developers what you want. Instead you tend to spend all your energy on trying to tell men why they shouldn't want what they want, in this case enjoy the looks of a sexy-looking female NPC, practical or not. That's why I suggested that you get vocal in a productive way, make threads about how you consider the LIs for straight females lacking, so that the situation can be remedied. Everybody should have something to be pleased at. What these threads tend to gravitate towards is the opposite: everybody is unhappy (women because they still don't get what they want, and men because they are told they're bad for wanting what they want and can no longer get it). (1)

Re the question of a male Isabela-equivalent: I believe I've clearly stated my opinion about that idea before, so the repeated question is kinda... repetitive. I'd be perfectly fine with it. I actually might romance that character with my female protagonist.


(1) For the sake of readability I did not include LGBTs in here. Please read my comment so it fits your shoe, too. The gist of my post naturally applies to you as well: You should be able to be happy with a LI.

 

Oh, believe me, female consumers have gave quite much feedback on what they like. How ever, you seem to think female players should give feedback about male characters in the game instead of female characters? At least that's the impression on what I understood

 

In reality, there has been more feedback towards female characters and how they are being presented & treated in different medias. For example Witcher and Saint Row as series have developed better in how they treat female characters, because of feedback and critic they have got. So the critic has been often towards how female characters are presented & treated. Feedback towards Marvel and DC have seem to stem new comic series with female characters as leads, which is pretty nice. I think this criticism is more important than female players and consumers giving feedback on what kind of male characters they want. Especially, when there doesn't seem to be that much desire from female players to change current male characters.

 

However, there has been some feedback from female players to Bioware at least about romances for female PC's. Mostly I have seen it being about how romances play out, for example female PC seems to have quite bad luck with love in terms of getting cheated and left by Jacob, getting widowed by Thane, getting left by Solas and lied by Blackwall etc. Numbers has been complained in sense of ME3, where it was possible for female PC to not have any LI's (though in ME sense gay PC have been screwed more than female). Well other than that, there hasn't been much negative feedback towards male characters, how unattractive or unsexy they are or some other feedback on what kind of LI's female players would want. Not only Bioware sense, I don't think there has been much complains about male characters by female consumers in any media.

 

So I'd say that to female consumers how female characters are being presented and treated has been bigger issue than what female players want from male characters. And I think feedback towards female characters has worked in sense of in recent years there has been more female characters in medias and it seems like they have been treated "better", at least in way that makes female consumers happier.

[Seraphim24]

It sounds like your theoretical "hot fantasy Cassandra" concept is only skin deep, it's not going to change anything simply by whisking her clothes off her body.

 

She'll still be the same frigid-ish Cassandra, just minus some clothes. If changing outfits changed the game then Bethesda could just put in the half-naked mod into Skyrim and then sell another 20 million copies.

 

Although, it seems your topic has provided an opportunity to discuss a host of tangentially related issues.

 

As far as that goes I agree the standard for attraction is generally thin and kind of "normal" looking, not muscular and beefy/weird, which applies to both males and females.

[Grieving Natashina]

Oh, believe me, female consumers have gave quite much feedback on what they like. How ever, you seem to think female players should give feedback about male characters in the game instead of female characters? At least that's the impression on what I understood

 

In reality, there has been more feedback towards female characters and how they are being presented & treated in different medias. For example Witcher and Saint Row as series have developed better in how they treat female characters, because of feedback and critic they have got. So the critic has been often towards how female characters are presented & treated. Feedback towards Marvel and DC have seem to stem new comic series with female characters as leads, which is pretty nice. I think this criticism is more important than female players and consumers giving feedback on what kind of male characters they want. Especially, when there doesn't seem to be that much desire from female players to change current male characters.

 

However, there has been some feedback from female players to Bioware at least about romances for female PC's. Mostly I have seen it being about how romances play out, for example female PC seems to have quite bad luck with love in terms of getting cheated and left by Jacob, getting widowed by Thane, getting left by Solas and lied by Blackwall etc. Numbers has been complained in sense of ME3, where it was possible for female PC to not have any LI's (though in ME sense gay PC have been screwed more than female). Well other than that, there hasn't been much negative feedback towards male characters, how unattractive or unsexy they are or some other feedback on what kind of LI's female players would want. Not only Bioware sense, I don't think there has been much complains about male characters by female consumers in any media.

 

So I'd say that to female consumers how female characters are being presented and treated has been bigger issue than what female players want from male characters. And I think feedback towards female characters has worked in sense of in recent years there has been more female characters in medias and it seems like they have been treated "better", at least in way that makes female consumers happier.

Awesome post.  For the part I bolded, I know it is true for me.  

 

Also, in context to this thread, I'm more concerned about consistency with existing art style, and not having all of the characters being sexy.  I did agree with Hana here. <did some re-reading of the thread earlier and sure enough, I had missed a point.>

 

No, my disagreement is the criteria I think has to be met before it can be considered negative sexualization is different than the criteria you think has to met before it can be considered negative sexualization. 

 

I see where you're coming from, I hope.  

 

I think sexualization is inherently negative, but being sexy isn't.  With that in mind, I completely agree that they aren't one and the same.  It's a fine balance.  I think they did a good job with Isabela, but I've also met plenty of other folks that felt BioWare pushed it too far.   I think that line between the two can be hard to pinpoint because it's a matter of taste.  That's a heck of a mine field, because what is sexy and what is sexualized can be a big subject of debate.

 

The reason why I've liked some of the posts from both sides of this debate is because I can see in some cases where both sides are coming from.  I'm keeping an open mind about this, and I'm trying to get more perspectives.   Besides, I've liked posts that I might not agree with, but I do see the merit in a well-presented point.  

[xkg]

I get it, i just don't care... I'm sorry if that makes me a bad person but i kinda like it in my gaming, as long as its aesthetically pleasing.

 

I play fantasy as fantasy, not reality.

 

Not being prude doesn't makes you a bad person in anyway and you shouldn't feel sorry about that. Quite the opposite AFAIC 

[Terodil]

So I'd say that to female consumers how female characters are being presented and treated has been bigger issue than what female players want from male characters. And I think feedback towards female characters has worked in sense of in recent years there has been more female characters in medias and it seems like they have been treated "better", at least in way that makes female consumers happier.

I get that. However I dislike a substantial portion of the idea behind it. It implies that NPCs are more or less direct representations of women IRL, AND that by extension, some women need to/should/may tell other women (NPCs in this case) how to dress, how to behave, etc.

Now before you get your guns out, I, for one, appreciate that Marvel, for example, now includes more women among their superhero cast. I also appreciate, as a matter of principle, that women get out of their 'damsel' historical gravitational hotspot into more active leadership positions. That's been long overdue, and I think we have reached at least equilibrium, for example, in TV crime series with female investigators taking the lead positions.

However I draw the line where I perceive, candidly speaking, that feminism goes too far -- and I'm not just speaking from my own perception here but also from what I gathered from a lot of talking with female friends and relatives. Women are right to throw off the shackles that have kept them back from enjoying equal opportunities. However they are NOT right in creating new shackles for their consexuals by coming up with ideas about how *all* women should behave.

If a woman wants to feel sexy (for herself and/or for attracting male attention, it simply doesn't matter) and therefore dresses quite provocatively, it's not progress if other women tell her to cover up. Besides, dozens of million women do that every Friday night (and actually take ass-shots selfies, so I can chuckle about the 'Miranda ass-shot' argument sometimes, even though I do see its merit). If a random female character happens to behave like a damsel, and this gets decried as backward, misogynist etc., it's not progress, because it reduces characters to this one attribute and completely disregards the fact that we, as humans, simply have a very large bandwith of preferences and behaviour.

That said, looking on the other side of the fence, we (and I'm also looking at my consexuals here, because they contribute a lot to the issue persisting) definitely need to change what we perceive as acceptable and non-acceptable in men. As long as men cannot be accepted as victims, weak, and in need of support, without being also considered less of a man for just that, we'll never reach a state where we can simply accept every human as a human with a myriad of properties, where sex is just one among many. Every man, every woman, can be a hero, a coward, a victim, a perpetrator, sexy, ugly or whatever.

This is a RL consideration. In videogames, I'd generally be in favour of a slightly unrealistic positive bias. I don't play VGs to play a RL simulator 2.0, I play to enjoy myself. There's enough drama, sadness, hurt and ugliness in the world that we don't need, imo, to multiply it into fantasy realms as well simply for the sake of realism. So I'd generally want prettier, stronger, friendlier people in my games than uglier, weaker, or unfriendlier (while still maintaining a somewhat healthy mix, it'd be boring otherwise. I know this is a spongy statement).

[Vanth]

My least favourite character in DA2 was Isabela and my least favourite character in DA:I was Iron Bull. I certainly wasn't consciously disapproving of their behaviour while playing the game, but looking back I wonder if I was subconsciously objecting to their overt sexualisation in the game. 

 

I would much rather have none of this sexualisation of characters, but I think that is an entirely different thing to having characters looking pretty (or hot, or whatever you want to call it). I like my fantasy adventures to be full of good looking people because it is a fantasy! So please let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's allow characters to be good looking without feeling the need to over sexualise them, but for god's sake let's not make all the npcs ugly just because we are scared of not being representative to ugly people. 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Terodil is right though. Yes the creators don't have any input on how you view their creations, but you certainly don't get to decide what their intent was either.

 

It's also laughable that you gave Inquisition as an example of a game that was balanced in terms of sexualised characters per gender. It is incredibly skewed, it's just that it's in the opposite direction to what we normaly see. We have Dorian, Iron Bull and Cullen as examples of overtly sexualised males, whilst for females we have.....? Having almost every female npc wrapped up in thick furs, chantry robes or full plate, and having many male npcs baring their abs does not a balanced representation make. 

 

Also, having more male companions does not make Bioware sexist. If anything it logically ensures that there will be more romance options for women and gay guys (which was the case in Inquisition, at least for straight gals.)  This is the kind of thing I was talking about before when I said that devs just can't win. They have more male companions, so people accuse them of being sexist and not wanting to represent various female characters who are distinct and varied. Had they had more female companions (and straight guys had got the lion's share of romance content, like with the ME trilogy) people would have said that they were pandering to the straight male gaze. It seems you're sexist  damned if you do and sexist damned if you don't.

well, i think there is potential to derail this thread to character writing, to explain what some females consider attractive and why some of them think they're not getting it.

let's not.

it's easier to say what is annoying - sexualization. as in removing clothes, complex personalities and/or unattractive traits from a NPC to make him/her more appealing despite any common sense (cue Miranda's butt close ups). why females are touchy on this subject? dunno. why am i touchy? long version is.. well, too long. short version? Tomb Raider 2.

it's about removing something important from the character - in Cass's case practicality, the one of the most important traits, and replace it with chainmail bikini. i don't think women like to be precieved as sexual objects only.

 

yes, i agree: those guys really are oversexualized. and that's why i never felt the need to talk with any of them, being a female and a huge fan of Isabella that i am. pants or no.

[TheRatPack55]

>snipped to conserve space<

 

I agree with you. However, this is also why for fictional characters the issue of context/presentation becomes so important, since they are not in fact living people who can choose what they want to wear or how to behave - it is decided for them by developers, and it often happens that female characters end up being designed by male artists, with a male audience in mind.

 

Isabela was a well presented character because she talked about why she chose to be the way she was. Random half-naked npc with no lines or story is just there for the player to ogle, no matter how someone may try to 'imagine' them a motivation for their manner of dress.

 

Still, like I said, agree with the general gist of what you're saying. I just hope for more characters like Isabela, for both genders, rather than just giving everyone skimpy clothing and calling it a day.

[TheOgre]

Holy crap, I honestly clicked on this thread thinking i'd see something different than what was in the OP. Another Brevnau post?

 

You need to just stop, just stop please :/ No insults from me, all I'd ask is that you cease beating this dead horse over and over again.