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Yup, videogames as a rule are entertainment artforms (I say as a rule because there are a new wave of indie devs purposely making games that aren't fun- Depression Quest, Papers Please, and I Get This Call Every Day being examples.)
Don't insult the medium by saying that Depression Quest and I Get This Call Everyday are video games. Papers, Please! can be argued, but the other two are interactive Flash garbage. All you do is click on text.
Don't insult the medium by saying that Depression Quest and I Get This Call Everyday are video games. Papers, Please! can be argued, but the other two are interactive Flash garbage. All you do is click on text.
So basically visual novels?
They are usually seen as games though 
So basically visual novels?
They are usually seen as games though
and that's depressing :3
So basically visual novels?
They are usually seen as games though
Visual novels usually have some sort of visual element to them (hence the name). Depression Quest is literally all text, save for some snapshots at the start. At least I Get This Call Everyday has pictures, albeit crude MSPaint drawings that look as though they were drawn by a 5 year old with Parkinson's. It doesn't help that both Depression Quest and IGTCE are made by 2 of the most reprehensible "developers" to ever grace the industry. Depression Quest in particular is almost an insult to people actually suffering through depression with how abysmal the writing is. It's so melodramatic and overemotional.
Don't insult the medium by saying that Depression Quest and I Get This Call Everyday are video games. Papers, Please! can be argued, but the other two are interactive Flash garbage. All you do is click on text.
I actually agree with you. I was just using those examples because some of the devs behind them themselves said that gaming needs to grow up and that videogames have evolved past pure entertainment, that they need to be politically aware and don't need to be fun to play.
I actually agree with you. I was just using those examples because some of the devs behind them themselves said that gaming needs to grow up and that videogames have evolved past pure entertainment, that they need to be politically aware and don't need to be fun to play.
And those people are wrong. Depression Quest isn't actually a game, it has a disclaimer on the title screen saying as much. Same thing with IGTCE. Papers, Please! is an actual game with gameplay that goes beyond clicking words, with actual mechanics.
If anyone says that games "need to be politically aware and don't need to be fun to play", they can shove it. A game should be fun, first and foremost. Whether the fun comes from the storytelling or the game mechanics, it needs to be fun.
Never said otherwise. I agree with everything you're saying.
@Panda - Yeah, I know. It's just that the definitions given by Commander Rpg seem rather broad, and if one was to go by them the entire game would be one giant orgy of fanservice, since, you know - pretty much everything in a game is supposed to please the audience. I'm not exactly running around murdering Cory's lackeys out of a sense of duty to the virtual land of Thedas.
Not to mention even if it were, I consider (at least certain kinds) of "pornography" to be pretty inspiring, empowering, and interesting at any rate. Someone else mentioned Aphrodite but pretty much all of the great revered "classical art" was pretty excessively titillatory (or whatever the word would be). You really can't go three steps in most museums without stumbling across a completely naked male or female in a garden or whatever, but for some mysterious reason every display of the naked human body after say the year 2000 is pretty much immediately categorized as smut.
The question should simply be whether there is a way to please people more than by just throwing naked bodies at them, and which may very well be a possibility.
I would seriously question someone's business in the entertainment industry if they weren't motivated by a desire to please on some level.
Never said otherwise. I agree with everything you're saying.
I wasn't arguing against you, if that's what it looks like. I was just chiming in with my opinion on those indie devs. The pretentious, artsy garbage that gets churned out by Liberal Arts post-grads with a rudimentary knowledge of Flash or C++ who have a "statement to make", as though they know anything about the world or "the human condition" are the cancer of the indie game scene. And it's not just Zoe Quinn or what's-his-name who made IGTCE. Phil Fish, Jonathan Blow, and Tommy Refenes (just to name a few) are all a bunch of pretentious "we're better and smarter than everyone else, you should play our games because AAA games are the devil" overgrown children who act like they're trying to save us, the humble consumer, from the evils and treachery of modern AAA gaming and subverting gaming as an art form with artsy, pretentious crap that barely qualifies as a "game".
And when they're not being pretentious, they're being straight-up ***holes. See literally any of Phil Fish's tweets on his Twitter page for some examples. When he isn't going on a 140-characters-or-less swear-laden rant about how some guy messed up on his coffee at Starbucks, he's explicitly calling the everyman gamer a rapist.
Still, credit where credit is due, Braid is actually a pretty fun little diversion, and Super Meat Boy is insanely fun and addicting.
Don't insult the medium by saying that Depression Quest and I Get This Call Everyday are video games. Papers, Please! can be argued, but the other two are interactive Flash garbage. All you do is click on text.
I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I ran into Cassandra at the supermarket.
It could be the most terrifying ordeal of my life, or the most adorable meet-cute ever.
I second that statement.
Cassandra is adorable and an excellent romance option, especially when compared to Isabella.
I wasn't arguing against you, if that's what it looks like. I was just chiming in with my opinion on those indie devs. The pretentious, artsy garbage that gets churned out by Liberal Arts post-grads with a rudimentary knowledge of Flash or C++ who have a "statement to make", as though they know anything about the world or "the human condition" are the cancer of the indie game scene. And it's not just Zoe Quinn or what's-his-name who made IGTCE. Phil Fish, Jonathan Blow, and Tommy Refenes (just to name a few) are all a bunch of pretentious "we're better and smarter than everyone else, you should play our games because AAA games are the devil" overgrown children who act like they're trying to save us, the humble consumer, from the evils and treachery of modern AAA gaming and subverting gaming as an art form with artsy, pretentious crap that barely qualifies as a "game".
And when they're not being pretentious, they're being straight-up ***holes. See literally any of Phil Fish's tweets on his Twitter page for some examples. When he isn't going on a 140-characters-or-less swear-laden rant about how some guy messed up on his coffee at Starbucks, he's explicitly calling the everyman gamer a rapist.
Still, credit where credit is due, Braid is actually a pretty fun little diversion, and Super Meat Boy is insanely fun and addicting.
Damm... someone is really dropping the truth bombs.
I'm so triggered right now.
I wasn't arguing against you, if that's what it looks like. I was just chiming in with my opinion on those indie devs. The pretentious, artsy garbage that gets churned out by Liberal Arts post-grads with a rudimentary knowledge of Flash or C++ who have a "statement to make", as though they know anything about the world or "the human condition" are the cancer of the indie game scene. And it's not just Zoe Quinn or what's-his-name who made IGTCE. Phil Fish, Jonathan Blow, and Tommy Refenes (just to name a few) are all a bunch of pretentious "we're better and smarter than everyone else, you should play our games because AAA games are the devil" overgrown children who act like they're trying to save us, the humble consumer, from the evils and treachery of modern AAA gaming and subverting gaming as an art form with artsy, pretentious crap that barely qualifies as a "game".
And when they're not being pretentious, they're being straight-up ***holes. See literally any of Phil Fish's tweets on his Twitter page for some examples. When he isn't going on a 140-characters-or-less swear-laden rant about how some guy messed up on his coffee at Starbucks, he's explicitly calling the everyman gamer a rapist.
Still, credit where credit is due, Braid is actually a pretty fun little diversion, and Super Meat Boy is insanely fun and addicting.
I like you.
Cassandra looks masculine. Shes a brick faced example of 'ball unfriendly', definately not an ornament that any man should invite for salons. The only good thing about her is that she does not dress herself like a harlot.
Cassandra looks masculine. Shes a brick faced example of 'ball unfriendly', definately not an ornament that any man should invite for salons. The only good thing about her is that she does not dress herself like a harlot.
Oh. It's you.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Cassandra wouldn't want to go to a salon anyway - Swords and Shields doesn't seem like the kind of literature that would be discussed at one. She certainly wouldn't want to be seen as anyone's ornament. So I guess that works out.
I wasn't arguing against you, if that's what it looks like. I was just chiming in with my opinion on those indie devs. The pretentious, artsy garbage that gets churned out by Liberal Arts post-grads with a rudimentary knowledge of Flash or C++ who have a "statement to make", as though they know anything about the world or "the human condition" are the cancer of the indie game scene. And it's not just Zoe Quinn or what's-his-name who made IGTCE. Phil Fish, Jonathan Blow, and Tommy Refenes (just to name a few) are all a bunch of pretentious "we're better and smarter than everyone else, you should play our games because AAA games are the devil" overgrown children who act like they're trying to save us, the humble consumer, from the evils and treachery of modern AAA gaming and subverting gaming as an art form with artsy, pretentious crap that barely qualifies as a "game".
And when they're not being pretentious, they're being straight-up ***holes. See literally any of Phil Fish's tweets on his Twitter page for some examples. When he isn't going on a 140-characters-or-less swear-laden rant about how some guy messed up on his coffee at Starbucks, he's explicitly calling the everyman gamer a rapist.
Still, credit where credit is due, Braid is actually a pretty fun little diversion, and Super Meat Boy is insanely fun and addicting.
There's un-fun games everywhere, they single out AAA and your singling out the independent gaming scene.
Meanwhile the AA on the DS, Wii, and now potentially the 3ds keeps chugging along....
There's un-fun games everywhere, they single out AAA and your singling out the independent gaming scene.
Meanwhile the AA on the DS, Wii, and now potentially the 3ds keeps chugging along....
There's a difference between games that aren't fun and "games" that are purposely made to not be fun.
There's a difference between games that aren't fun and "games" that are purposely made to not be fun.
I don't know just how many AAA games truly qualify for that either... take a look at the LoL forums or any place where you find remnants of hardcore game design, the goal of the designers and often the players is to punish and berate and they arguably have become the most popular because of that quality.
I noticed replaying DA:O for instance also most of the characters/merchants etc will insult you for sounding dumb or "soft in the head." It certainly doesn't feel like Pokemon.
Anyway, I'm not disputing that there are reams of low fi retro graphic indie games that seem completely boring and stuffy.
Er, anyway... it's part of a lot of other topics and ideas and this isn't even really on topic so I'm probably just going to leave it at that....
There are no AAA games that a purpose built to be boring. Did you actually read the conversation? Various indie games were mentioned because the actual devs themselves said that games have evolved past being an entertainment art form. That games need to be politically aware and "send a message" more so than they need to be fun to play. Depression Quest and IGTCE were actually meant to be a slog to get through, they were made to be a chore to play.
Edit- It fits into the Art vs Realism discussion because many of these "games" are meant to reflect the monotony and harsh realities of real life. They completely ignore the escapism aspect of videogames.
Oh. It's you.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Cassandra wouldn't want to go to a salon anyway - Swords and Shields doesn't seem like the kind of literature that would be discussed at one. She certainly wouldn't want to be seen as anyone's ornament. So I guess that works out.
I did not say anything about her needs and whims. Man leads, woman follows. She fails at being beautiful, one thing that truly matters during parades.
I hope that the next game will offer properly looking female companions.
We are locking this thread because the discussion has run its course.
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