812 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

Neither of those are actual articles.  They are prepared Marketing statements made by a PR department for generate buzz for a game followed up by one persons opinion (which may have been bought to help generate more PR.

 

If you linked to articles that involved people in the industry but are not linked to the games in anyway that would be more valid.

Clearly you are going to refute any point regardless of how credible it is. Many of what you, and fellow posters, are complaining about (i.e. a lack of understanding the difference between an expansion and dlc) is explained in those two articles. Write them off as PR, game journalism favoritism, or whatever other nonsense. The truth is there. Accept it or don't. This conversation won't go anywhere as you clearly made up your mind about this thread a long time ago. You may as well move on.

[SnakeCode]

Awakening was large enough to put on a separate disc. As a matter of fact, that's the version I have. That's the only Bioware dlc I know of that would be big enough, though.

Yes, Awakening was labelled as an expansion though wasn't it? Or at least everybody refers to it as such.

[Revan Reborn]

Yes, Awakening was labelled as an expansion though wasn't it? Or at least everybody refers to it as such.

[In Exile]

Todd Howard (Lead Developer at BGS: TES, Fallout), one of the legends and pioneers of the industry, gives his thoughts on DLC versus an expansion: http://kotaku.com/58...expansion-packs

 

No he doesn't. He is talking about the Skyrim DLC plan. This is what he says:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]. They'll feel closer to an expansion pack."

 

This isn't him defining the difference between the two. He sort of touches on them, but the most we can conclude from that is that the difference between DLC and an expansion pack is an ill-defined greater quantity of content, but by his own statement, Skyrim content is DLC and not an expansion pack. 

 

The second link you post isn't a statement from anyone in the industry. As far as I can tell it's a random opinion piece on some no-name site. In any event, all that it says is that the difference is some unexplained amount of content:

 

In the aforementioned stories CDP pins the differentiation on the size of the content, but a lot of publishers just seem to always use “DLC,” even for very large pieces of content. Technically, expansions in the modern sense are just really big pieces of DLC. Dishonored’s two story-based add-ons, which Bethesda calls DLC, together comprise almost as much content as the base game. Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes From Liberty City is a significant expansion. Maybe CDP just needs to inject the word “DLC” with the value that used to be associated with expansion packs, but one developer alone probably can’t do that. In any case, Witcher 3’s “expansion pass” supposedly contains around 30 hours of content for $25, and the October and early 2016 release dates suggests this is not cut content.

 

The reference to cut content is interesting because some old expansion packs were cut content (the best example being Tales of the Sword Coast). 

The underlined comments suggest that the author actually doesn't think an expansion pack is different from DLC. 

[Heimdall]

Todd Howard (Lead Developer at BGS: TES, Fallout), one of the legends and pioneers of the industry, gives his thoughts on DLC versus an expansion: http://kotaku.com/58...expansion-packs
 
Here is a more in-depth explanation of DLC versus an expansion with regard to TW3: https://noplatform.w...meaning-of-dlc/
 
As you can tell, and what I have stated several times, expansions generally are entirely new experiences. As the article suggests, it's in some ways a sequel to the base game. Whereas DLC merely adds to the base game, extending that original experience. Due to technology and the disfavor of expansions in more modern times (because of costs and the shift to consoles), the term and its meaning has become "arbitrary" because of ignorance of the term and an inability to tell the difference.

Yeah, this is my favorite part of the latter article:
 

In the aforementioned stories CDP pins the differentiation on the size of the content, but a lot of publishers just seem to always use “DLC,” even for very large pieces of content. Technically, expansions in the modern sense are just really big pieces of DLC.

[wolfsite]

Clearly you are going to refute any point regardless of how credible it is. Many of what you, and fellow posters, are complaining about (i.e. a lack of understanding the difference between an expansion and dlc) is explained in those two articles. Write them off as PR, game journalism favoritism, or whatever other nonsense. The truth is there. Accept it or don't. This conversation won't go anywhere as you clearly made up your mind about this thread a long time ago. You may as well move on.

 

The problem with those articles is that the source is clearly associated with the product in mentioned thus making the source bias in favour of the topic in mention thus making it invalid and thus it is not truth as truth is something that is widely considered right.  I am not just writing them off, it's that your sources are showing favouritism.  Your sources are equal to someone from Deep Silver claiming that Ride to Hell is one of the greatest games ever made with the only evidence being himself stating so.

 

If you want to prove your stance I will say again you will need to site evidence from a source that is not directly linked to the product of discussion. 

[Revan Reborn]

No he doesn't. He is talking about the Skyrim DLC plan. This is what he says:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]. They'll feel closer to an expansion pack."

 

This isn't him defining the difference between the two. He sort of touches on them, but the most we can conclude from that is that the difference between DLC and an expansion pack is an ill-defined greater quantity of content, but by his own statement, Skyrim content is DLC and not an expansion pack. 

 

The second link you post isn't a statement from anyone in the industry. As far as I can tell it's a random opinion piece on some no-name site. In any event, all that it says is that the difference is some unexplained amount of content:

 

In the aforementioned stories CDP pins the differentiation on the size of the content, but a lot of publishers just seem to always use “DLC,” even for very large pieces of content. Technically, expansions in the modern sense are just really big pieces of DLC. Dishonored’s two story-based add-ons, which Bethesda calls DLC, together comprise almost as much content as the base game. Grand Theft Auto IV: Episodes From Liberty City is a significant expansion. Maybe CDP just needs to inject the word “DLC” with the value that used to be associated with expansion packs, but one developer alone probably can’t do that. In any case, Witcher 3’s “expansion pass” supposedly contains around 30 hours of content for $25, and the October and early 2016 release dates suggests this is not cut content.

 

The reference to cut content is interesting because some old expansion packs were cut content (the best example being Tales of the Sword Coast). 

The underlined comments suggest that the author actually doesn't think an expansion pack is different from DLC. 

You are misinterpreting what Todd Howard is saying then. He is making a distinction because Dawnguard and Dragonborn, from his perspective, aren't just "DLC." He uses the DLC packs in Fallout 3 as a separation to show what he defines as traditional "DLC," and then Skyrim add-on content, which is different. He makes a parallel to Skyrim being closer to an expansion pack to suggest that Dawnguard and Dragonborn aren't as massive in scope as Shivering Isles, Tribunal, or Bloodmoon, but they are very much in the same spirit of that kind of experience. Dawnguard and Dragonborn are neither DLC or expansions, they are somewhere in-between.

 

You are missing some major arguments of the second post. The author clearly notes that there is a difference to what expansions were a decade or so ago to what DLC is today. Part of it is due to technology. Part of it is because the term "expansion" had a rather strict meaning while "DLC" was ambiguous. The issue today is that developers and alike have largely made the terms synonymous, when they never were, leading to this "arbitrariness" that you, and others, keep making an argument for.

 

The point is there was a difference between expansions and DLC in the past. Today, it's not so clear, thus there is a lot of confusion. What CDPR is arguing for is a return to the older days when expansions meant something, as CDPR argues "DLC" is a term that has largely lost meaning and been diluted, much like the phrase "MMORPG." To truly understand and grasp the depth of this situation, you have to appreciate and follow the history of these various terms, what they applied to depending on the particular platform, and how things have changed.

[Revan Reborn]

The problem with those articles is that the source is clearly associated with the product in mentioned thus making the source bias in favour of the topic in mention thus making it invalid and thus it is not truth as truth is something that is widely considered right.  I am not just writing them off, it's that your sources are showing favouritism.  Your sources are equal to someone from Deep Silver claiming that Ride to Hell is one of the greatest games ever made with the only evidence being himself stating so.

 

If you want to prove your stance I will say again you will need to site evidence from a source that is not directly linked to the product of discussion. 

Todd Howard is a developer who has created both expansions and DLC packs. He is merely giving a distinction between to what degree one is versus the other. Fallout 3 clearly had DLC packs. He is making an argument that Skyrim contains add-on content more synonymous with expansions BGS used to make. There is nothing biased about that if it's true. If you've actually played the post-release content in Fallout 3 and Skyrim, you would know Dawnguard and Dragonborn are substantially bigger in what they offer compared to all of the content in Fallout 3. There is no bias in his statement.

[wolfsite]

Todd Howard is a developer who has created both expansions and DLC packs. He is merely giving a distinction between to what degree one is versus the other. Fallout 3 clearly had DLC packs. He is making an argument that Skyrim contains add-on content more synonymous with expansions BGS used to make. There is nothing biased about that if it's true. If you've actually played the post-release content in Fallout 3 and Skyrim, you would know Dawnguard and Dragonborn are substantially bigger in what they offer compared to all of the content in Fallout 3. There is no bias in his statement.

 

He works for the company and made the content.  That right there is considered Bias as in the article he is trying to sell you the product he made.

 

Again, you need to find someone not associated with the product for a valid form of evidence as someone who is associated with the product has been told what to say and how to say it by his employers.  He is being paid by the company that made the product, his livelihood at the time was based on if the product sells well so they will use any marketing strategy to make it sound better and generate more sales.

[Revan Reborn]

He works for the company and made the content.  That right there is considered Bias as in the article he is trying to sell you the product he made.

Again, you miss the point. He is obviously trying to sell a product, but he is also being transparent and truthful about the distinctions. Now, you can be a hopeless cynic and not listen to the advice of any professionals who have made both expansions and DLC. Or, you can recognize the two were different and learn from those who actually have expertise in the field. The choice is yours.

[In Exile]

You are misinterpreting what Todd Howard is saying then. He is making a distinction because Dawnguard and Dragonborn, from his perspective, aren't just "DLC." He uses the DLC packs in Fallout 3 as a separation to show what he defines as traditional "DLC," and then Skyrim add-on content, which is different. He makes a parallel to Skyrim being closer to an expansion pack to suggest that Dawnguard and Dragonborn aren't as massive in scope as Shivering Isles, Tribunal, or Bloodmoon, but they are very much in the same spirit of that kind of experience. Dawnguard and Dragonborn are neither DLC or expansions, they are somewhere in-between.

 

You are missing some major arguments of the second post. The author clearly notes that there is a difference to what expansions were a decade or so ago to what DLC is today. Part of it is due to technology. Part of it is because the term "expansion" had a rather strict meaning while "DLC" was ambiguous. The issue today is that developers and alike have largely made the terms synonymous, when they never were, leading to this "arbitrariness" that you, and others, keep making an argument for.

 

The point is there was a difference between expansions and DLC in the past. Today, it's not so clear, thus there is a lot of confusion. What CDPR is arguing for is a return to the older days when expansions meant something, as CDPR argues "DLC" is a term that has largely lost meaning and been diluted, much like the phrase "MMORPG." To truly understand and grasp the depth of this situation, you have to appreciate and follow the history of these various terms, what they applied to depending on the particular platform, and how things have changed.

The articles you posted literally do not say these things. I understand that this is your position, but what you cite is not support for it. Todd Howard does not distinguish between "DLC" and Skyrim add-on content. He calls the product DLC. There are three quotes in the article:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]. They'll feel closer to an expansion pack."

"With Fallout 3, it was, 'Ten dollars is the sweet spot for us and we know we want to put out five of them. And we had overlapping teams. We were coming off Fallout 3 and right back in." He describes that development cycle as "a real hardcore loop," but adds, "we just think we can do better content if we approach it a different way."

"Because that gap is going to be bigger, we want to put litle things out for free in between. We've already done that for PC with the high-res pack. We're trying to figure out what those things are."

There is absolutely no possible world in which these comments could be taken as a commentary by Todd Howard on DLC, expansions and Bestheda products other than Skyrim and FO3. I

 

At this point the only conclusion is that you do not read the articles that you post. 

[wolfsite]

Again, you miss the point. He is obviously trying to sell a product, but he is also being transparent and truthful about the distinctions. Now, you can be a hopeless cynic and not listen to the advice of any professionals who have made both expansions and DLC. Or, you can recognize the two were different and learn from those who actually have expertise in the field. The choice is yours.

 

and you are making the choice of ignoring anything that goes against your assumed preconceptions.

 

In any proper and civil debate any information that is from a person who is involved with one side or the other can not be used as it could be biased in favour of that side.

 

So any wording he said in that article could have been pre-approved by his employer which invalidates it as being truthful and honest.  Oh and guess what, a lot of companies have there employees sign NDA's or sign agreements to always show content created by the company in a specific light, so again that invalidates them as proper evidence and support.

 

Plus on top of that there is more and more evidence showing that you yourself are not checking what you are submitting as evidence.

[o Ventus]

 

Plus on top of that there is more and more evidence showing that you yourself are not checking what you are submitting as evidence.

I'm pretty sure he's doing it on purpose at this point.

[wolfsite]

I'm pretty sure he's doing it on purpose at this point.

Ya I'm pretty sure this thread hasn't so much de-railed but fell of the track into a deep chasm and exploded twice.

[Heimdall]

At best, the statements in the first article define an expansion to be some nebulous content size, which apparently none of Skyrim's DLC quite reach despite your insistence that Dragonborn is an expansion.

 

The second writer (Though what authority he's supposed to have, I don't know) is talking about what expansions vs. DLC used to be and actually points out the ambiguity of the whole situation now.

 

So the jokes on you.

[Revan Reborn]

The articles you posted literally do not say these things. I understand that this is your position, but what you cite is not support for it. Todd Howard does not distinguish between "DLC" and Skyrim add-on content. He calls the product DLC. There are three quotes in the article:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]. They'll feel closer to an expansion pack."

"With Fallout 3, it was, 'Ten dollars is the sweet spot for us and we know we want to put out five of them. And we had overlapping teams. We were coming off Fallout 3 and right back in." He describes that development cycle as "a real hardcore loop," but adds, "we just think we can do better content if we approach it a different way."

"Because that gap is going to be bigger, we want to put litle things out for free in between. We've already done that for PC with the high-res pack. We're trying to figure out what those things are."

There is absolutely no possible world in which these comments could be taken as a commentary by Todd Howard on DLC, expansions and Bestheda products other than Skyrim and FO3. I

 

At this point the only conclusion is that you do not read the articles that you post. 

Where in any of those quotes does Todd Howard state Dawnguard and Dragonborn are DLC? What he does say is he wants to take more time to have more meat for add-on content more closer to an expansion pack. He does not explicitly call anything in Skyrim "DLC." Again, you try to invalidate my argument but you don't even closely read what I am posting to start. Do you not see how ridiculous your stance is? Really?

 

and you are making the choice of ignoring anything that goes against your assumed preconceptions.

 

In any proper and civil debate any information that is from a person who is involved with one side or the other can not be used as it could be biased in favour of that side.

 

So any wording he said in that article could have been pre-approved by his employer which invalidates it as being truthful and honest.  Oh and guess what, a lot of companies have there employees sign NDA's or sign agreements to always show content created by the company in a specific light, so again that invalidates them as proper evidence and support.

 

Plus on top of that there is more and more evidence showing that you yourself are not checking what you are submitting as evidence.

I gave you the opinion of a well-established professional in the field we are discussing. He has had substantial experience with DLC and expansions, thus his words hold merit. Now, you can muddle the discussion with PR, marketing considerations, bias, etc., but that does not invalidate the entire message of his statement. Nothing of what I have posted is contradicting my stance. You are merely interpreting it that way.

 

At best, the statements in the first article define an expansion to be some nebulous content size, which apparently none of Skyrim's DLC quite reach despite your insistence that Dragonborn is an expansion.

 

The second writer (Though what authority he's supposed to have, I don't know) is talking about what expansions vs. DLC used to be and actually points out the ambiguity of the whole situation now.

 

So the jokes on you.

Funny how you keep on repeating yourself. I merely stated Dragonborn is like an expansion because it holds many characteristics of what previous BGS expansions were. I've already clarified that BGS has never called it an expansion. Yet, you somehow rationalize this to me stating it is an expansion and you can't tell me otherwise.

 

There is no joke. I merely proved my point that expansions and DLC were different in the past and now the terms are ambiguous. This is part of the reason there is such an uproar over what CDPR is doing as they are making an attempt at paying homage to expansions of the past. It's something, you, and many others, fail to grasp because you merely see the term as arbitrary with little difference in meaning. The only one left in the cold here is you refusing to put two and two together...

[In Exile]

Where in any of those quotes does Todd Howard state Dawnguard and Dragonborn are DLC? What he does say is he wants to take more time to have more meat for add-on content more closer to an expansion pack. He does not explicitly call anything in Skyrim "DLC." Again, you try to invalidate my argument but you don't even closely read what I am posting to start. Do you not see how ridiculous your stance is? Really?

Is this a joke? Literally the first two sentences say:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim].

 

He's calling it DLC. "Them" is a reference to DLC. He's calling it DLC. 

[Heimdall]

Funny how you keep on repeating yourself. I merely stated Dragonborn is like an expansion because it holds many characteristics of what previous BGS expansions were. I've already clarified that BGS has never called it an expansion. Yet, you somehow rationalize this to me stating it is an expansion and you can't tell me otherwise.

 

There is no joke. I merely proved my point that expansions and DLC were different in the past and now the terms are ambiguous. This is part of the reason there is such an uproar over what CDPR is doing as they are making an attempt at paying homage to expansions of the past. It's something, you, and many others, fail to grasp because you merely see the term as arbitrary with little difference in meaning. The only one left in the cold here is you refusing to put two and two together...

You said up front that you considered Dragonborn an expansion.  Whenever I asked you to tell me why it was an expansion as opposed to Jaws of hakkon, you responded that it was due to content.  You never said "It's not an expansion, it's just like one".  So you didn't just say it, you defended it (ineffectively).  Try and change your story all you like, it doesn't change what you've said.

 

I know I can't tell you otherwise.  You're apparently ruled by an internal narrative that has little to do with what's actually true or said.

 

What you proved is a failure in reading comprehension.

[fhs33721]

I'll let my good friend Corypheus sum up this thread:
 "I once read this thread in order to serve the old gods in person. I found only chaos and corruption. Dead whispers. For more than a dozen pages I was confused. No more! For I have seen the the arguments of the OP and they were empty."

 

Yeah, basically all just random assumptions, completely subjective interpretation sold as certainty and praises for content that hasn't even been released yet (Import function for TW3 will make a huge impact? LOL, I'll only believe that once I see it. The one in TW2 was so bad it made Bioware imports look god-tier like in comparison. And Biowares import has little impact to begin with. Honestly even if it was just put in late in developement as an afterthought I'd say no import function at all would have been better.). Oh and let's not forget constantly passiv-agressivly belittleing the cognitive abilities of other posters whenever someone points out the hilariously faulty argumentation.

 

So in conclusion I say, somebody needs to give this blighted thread the nation and god it requires or something along those lines.

[Revan Reborn]

Is this a joke? Literally the first two sentences say:

 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs," Howard told me during an interview last week at the DICE Summit. "That was a very aggressive path for us. Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim].

 

He's calling it DLC. "Them" is a reference to DLC. He's calling it DLC. 

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs" is in reference to only Fallout 3.

 

"Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]." In isolation, this would sound as if he explicitly means DLC from the previous sentence, but you fail to continue reading. He goes on further to state "they'll feel closer to an expansion pack," modifying "them" to mean more than just "DLC." Thus, going back to my point previously that Todd Howard is suggesting Dragonborn and Dawnguard are more than just "DLC," but not quite "expansions" either. Context clues, my friend. They'll take you a long way in life.

[wolfsite]

I found this and thought is was funny

 

http://www.gamespot....c/1100-6424891/

 

Excerpt:

 

Late last year, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt developer CD Projekt Red announced that it plans to release 16 free expansions for the open-world role-playing game. But why not charge for this content?

 

 

Got to love errors...... while I'm going to assume it's an error.... be funny if he actually said that.

[Heimdall]

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs" is in reference to only Fallout 3.

 

"Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]." In isolation, this would sound as if he explicitly means DLC from the previous sentence, but you fail to continue reading. He goes on further to state "they'll feel closer to an expansion pack," modifying them to mean more than just "DLC." Thus, going back to my point previously that Todd Howard is suggesting Dragonborn and Dawnguard are more than just "DLC," but not quite "expansions" either. Context clues, my friend. They'll take you a long way in life.

He's suggesting that they are NOT expansions, by virtue of the "almost".  He does not suggest they are not DLC, just that they are "meatier" DLC than Fallout 3.

 

At no point does he exclude them from being DLC.

[In Exile]

"For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs" is in reference to only Fallout 3.

 

"Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on them [for Skyrim]." In isolation, this would sound as if he explicitly means DLC from the previous sentence, but you fail to continue reading. He goes on further to state "they'll feel closer to an expansion pack," modifying them to mean more than just "DLC." Thus, going back to my point previously that Todd Howard is suggesting Dragonborn and Dawnguard are more than just "DLC," but not quite "expansions" either. Context clues, my friend. They'll take you a long way in life.

 

That's insane; "them" and "they" is a reference to DLC. He's saying:

 

For Fallout 3 we did five DLCs.

Our plan now is to take more time, to have more meat on the DLC for Skyrim. 

The Skyrim DLC will feel closer to an expansion pack.

 

He's not saying it'll be "more than just DLC". That phrase appears nowhere. There's absolutely no way to put the meaning you want on the word "them" and "they". 

[wolfsite]

Found the article I was looking for

 

http://www.gamespot....v/1100-6391019/

 

 

Excerpt

 

"If today's DLCs offered the same amount of content they would be worth paying for, but in most cases players think they are overcharged for what they receive," Tomaszkiewicz said. "That’s why we offer expansions to our game for free. This is also a way of saying 'thank you' to the people who decided to buy our game instead of copying it from an unauthorized source."

 

                                                    CD Projekt Red game director Konrad Tomaszkiewicz

 

 

So this does show that CDProject has changed there stance on things over the years and the people who are complaining have valid criticisms and are concerned that CDPR may decide to do other things that they have originally said was a problem in the industry.

 

 

Now to wait for a certain person to say I can't use this or that it doesn't matter.

[badboy64]

 Skyrim DragonBorn was called a DLC right from it release on steam and says so right when you purchase it that it was called a DLC from the beginning. As is Dawnguard and Hearthfire also.