55 réponses à ce sujet

[duckley]

So I need to pick my specialization. I have played as a tempest previously and wasnt crazy about it. The other specializations seem like they may be best for dual wielding daggers. How are the other spe ializatio ns for Archers?

[DomeWing333]

Assassin works like a sniper. Target one enemy, take them down, move onto the next. Relies very heavily on stealth. Absurdly high single target damage potential with Mark of Death and has a great option for crowd control with Knockout Bomb. Sub-par focus ability.

 

Artificer requires maximizing crit chance for yourself and your team. Once you have that, you can just constantly spam your arrow skills over and over again like you would with the Tempest's flask of fire. The actual skills in the tree aren't that great, though, except for the focus ability.

[Xerxes52]

As said above, Artificer is great for boosting your entire team's crit chance.

 

The traps are actually quite fun to use, even for Archers. Run up and plant a Spike Trap right on an enemy (can even be done in Stealth when upgraded, and the trap has no priming delay), then fire your Leaping Shot to get back out of range. Get your crit chance up, grab "Looked Like It Hurt" (+10 stamina per crit) from the Sabotage tree, combine that with "Opportunity Knocks" (team crits reduce your cooldowns) and you can really start spamming abilities.

[Bigdawg13]

So I need to pick my specialization. I have played as a tempest previously and wasnt crazy about it. The other specializations seem like they may be best for dual wielding daggers. How are the other spe ializatio ns for Archers?

 

How exactly does artificer "best for dual wielding daggers"??????

[Xerxes52]

How exactly does artificer "best for dual wielding daggers"??????

 

Personally I find Artificer works great on both, but with Dual Daggers you're already in melee range, may as well drop some traps. Also with the Thieves' Lantern upgrade you can separate a troublesome enemy (like a mage) from their group and shred them first.

 

I still favor the Archer though for Artificer.

[Tharkun]

I have a dagger Artificer that finished the game and just now am running an Archer Artificer.  Archers are the bomb with Artificer, no kidding, pun intended.  Hook and Tackle+, Elemental Bombs+, Leaping Shot, so much fun.  For my dagger run, Spinning Blades was the main skill I wanted to be 0 recharge.  For my Archer it is Leaping Shot.  The 12 second base recharge on Leaping Shot is better than the 16 second base recharge on Spinning Blades.   That combined with the greater number of shots in LS vs SB means that LS is reliable so much earlier in the playthrough.

 

Plus I love click target, Hook and Tackle escapes.  On my dagger rogue I tended to use evade and stealth more.  On my Archer I am all about the hook and tackle.  I have Stealth+ so I can self-dispel poison, fire,etc but I move around in combat by strafing and hook and tackle.

 

TBH archery/artifice is my favorite spec in the game.  I don't like Assassination Rogues, mostly because PC controls are a bit clunky for movement and you need fluid controls to cleanly move around as an assassin.  Since I can't get the PC controls setup right for me to move like I do in WOW, I don't like assassination in DA:I.  I can't comment on tempest yet since I haven't gotten around to a tempest build yet.

[Bigdawg13]

Look, I'm not saying you can't have a DW artificer.  The OP implied that artificer was best with DW.  I want to know under what mindset can anyone think that artificer is not primarily a ranged spec?

[Tharkun]

I put in 10 hours with my archer artificer recently.  Holy cow!  I spec'd into Elemental Mines+ early since Leaping Shot already was recharging super fast. So I started using it and wow.  I think the movement around the battlefield is hugely fun with an Artificer Archer.  It is also fun with those shadow type enemies who I can confirm have a self teleport after stealthing.  I tab-targetted one and hit hook and tackle.  He moved around the same time and I went BACKWARD to his current location.  It was pretty nuts.  I threw mines+ rather than using leaping shot afterword.  I like mines for both their offense and their defensive use.   And omg the glory of using mines with stamina boosting items.  I am going to hit hissing wastes next (did Suliden Keep first thing time) and get my +50 Sta Amulet.  I am currently using the +25 one.  I am considering making a bow with +Sta fade touched.

 

Leaping Shot is recharging so fast that sometimes I accidentally activate it twice in a row and find myself too far away to hook and tackle.  I had one weird experience where a mine drop was going off under me as I hit leaping shot, somehow the engine decided that knocked me up VERY high and I came down taking falling damage.

 

I also like to drop mines off battlements, cliffs or ladders.  If you know something is down that short ladder into darkness drop mines, it is hilarious.

[Inex]

The assassin skill tree works really well with archers. You need stealth from the subterfuge tree for it to work though.

 

Hidden blades: has good range so you don't need to stay too close to your target, plus it's acting as a PRECISION detonator (even though the game doesn't say so).

 

Knockout bomb: good for crowd control and setting up those NIGHTMARE and RUPTURE combos (knockout powder in the subterfuge tree is a bit better though).

 

Mark of death: the most damaging ability that doesn't require focus, provided it is used correctly. Plus it lasts longer if used on an enemy under the Mark of the Rift focus ability (i believe it is because MotR slows down enemies under its effect, last time i did this was on patch 2 though). You can also have Dorian use haste for an even longer mark of death. Even if you don't use focus abilities to boost this, it is still the best single target damage ability out there.

 

Cloak of Shadows: pretty good at higher tiers, because assassins have 100% critical chance under stealth status (knife in the shadows passive). MotR is much better though, so you don't really need to spend an ability point for this.

 

Free critical hits while under stealth means you can craft more gear with '+x% critical damage bonus' insetad of '+x% critical chance'. My archer assassin usually goes with ~25% critical chance and about 220% critical damage bonus. I have seen others going with ~10% critical chance and ~300% critical damage bonus, but at this point even high dragons are a joke.

 

This tree makes stealth + Full Draw a really good starting move. You can also stealth + leaping shot for massive damage against big targets, since it is 100% critical chance for EVERY leaping shot hit and can get you to full stamina if you have 'looked like it hurt' from the sabotage tree.

 

Don't know about artificer spec but from the few times i played varric, i noticed it is definitely good for archers.

[draken-heart]

Look, I'm not saying you can't have a DW artificer.  The OP implied that artificer was best with DW.  I want to know under what mindset can anyone think that artificer is not primarily a ranged spec?

 

Outside of the focus ability, what active skills work at range? None from what I know. I think that might be the thing about that.

[Bigdawg13]

Outside of the focus ability, what active skills work at range? None from what I know. I think that might be the thing about that.

 

Tell me, is there any other specialization where you are locked out of a focus because you chose the alternate weapon style?  Futhermore, fallback plan and stealth are redundant and with the 8-slot limit you really want to use stealth as DW.  So a DW artificer has....spike trap and elemental mines.  Considering that elemental mines, if upgraded, completely drains your stamina it leaves a DW rogue screwed as you are in melee and no stamina to re-stealth or do anything.  In fact, the ONLY thing in the artificer tree that has nice synergy with DW is upgrade spike trap, and spike trap is often just a filler to get to the rest of the tree.

 

But seriously tell me of another specialization that locks you out of a weapon style for the focus?   I'd love to hear it.

[Tharkun]

Outside of the focus ability, what active skills work at range? None from what I know. I think that might be the thing about that.

I see two false premises in your question.

1. That the actives in Artificer are where it is strong
2. That "range" means extreme range.

The Core strengths in Artificer are 3 perks: Opportunity Knocks, Elemental Mines (and upgrade) and to a lesser extent Tricks of the Trade.  All work very well for an archer.  In fact Elemental Mines works better for an Archer than a Dagger rogue since a Dagger Rogue needs to be close enough to stab something and mines are thrown farther than that.

 

An Artificer Archer is ideally no farther than the range of hook and tackle and sometimes as close as the distance where hook and tackle drops you.  So between short and mid range, rarely in melee.  I normally hit Leaping Shot after a hook and tackle unless the H&T was to escape something about to smash me.

My eight are: explosive shot, leaping shot, elemental mines+, Hook and Tackle, Evade (new), Lantern, Stealth+, Mark of the Rift

Mark of the Rift will eventually be Hail of Arrows.

 

I never really use the lantern, except to descend a ladder, click the object and jump back.  I use elemental mines+ a lot.  It is an incredible skill and insanely fun.  They are beautiful, offensive, defensive and fun.  Sometimes I will shoot a Gurn at extreme range with explosive shot then plink away at it and drop mines as it charges at me.  Watching a Gurn plow into a pile of mines is hilarious when you are the target.  It takes a bit to get used to the timing, I did it by accident once and now do it for fun (and hide).

 

Basically I would argue that Elemental Mines are best used by an archer.  I rarely use them on my dagger artificer.  He concentrates mostly on chaining spinning blades and the chaos of multiple procs.  

[DomeWing333]

Considering that elemental mines, if upgraded, completely drains your stamina it leaves a DW rogue screwed as you are in melee and no stamina to re-stealth or do anything. 

Looks Like It Hurt. Since DW artificers tend to throw Elemental mines right on top of enemies, they go off immediately and almost instantly gives him back his stamina.

 

Also, an upgraded fallback plan serves an entirely different function from stealth and is in fact best used with stealth to help you kidnap enemies away from their group to deal with them one by one.

[KaiserShep]

I love assassin archer myself. So much deadly sniping.

[Bigdawg13]

Looks Like It Hurt. Since DW artificers tend to throw Elemental mines right on top of enemies, they go off immediately and almost instantly gives him back his stamina.

 

Also, an upgraded fallback plan serves an entirely different function from stealth and is in fact best used with stealth to help you kidnap enemies away from their group to deal with them one by one.

 

Assuming you don't mess up when you use them that is.  It happens.  And when you screw up as a DW rogue, you re-stealth.  Except...oh wait you can't if you use elemental mines.

[Tharkun]

Looks Like It Hurt. Since DW artificers tend to throw Elemental mines right on top of enemies, they go off immediately and almost instantly gives him back his stamina.

 

 

That is not actually true.  I ran a dagger rogue from beginning to end on nightmare, I finished at level 24.  Elemental Mines are tossed 5 or so meters out not at point blank range.  I can gauge the distance by eye.  If you are facing a single small enemy or even a giant at point blank range and toss mines you will miss your target.  If you toss mines on a Dragon at point blank range it will work.

 

Additionally Dagger rogues can't move and stab as smoothly as archer rogues can shoot and strafe.  The dagger animation plants you.  This is a big deal and archer rogues are the most mobile class in the game.  This matters when you are trying to keep flanking, achieve the right distance for your next attack and avoid hazards.  Why does this come up in an elemental mine discussion?  Because if you do flatline your stamina an archer keeps shooting and positioning, a dagger rogue is either doing no dps and moving or stuck in dagger animations that control your location and movement.

[DomeWing333]

Assuming you don't mess up when you use them that is.  It happens.  And when you screw up as a DW rogue, you re-stealth.  Except...oh wait you can't if you use elemental mines.

How could you possibly "mess up" throwing elemental mines from melee distance? It's a bunch of hitboxes thrown in front of you in a wide arc. I suppose if you only using them on one enemy and that enemy happened to teleport at the right moment or something, but that's why you only use them on crowds or large lumbering targets.

That is not actually true.  I ran a dagger rogue from beginning to end on nightmare, I finished at level 24.  Elemental Mines are tossed 5 or so meters out not at point blank range.  I can gauge the distance by eye.  If you are facing a single small enemy or even a giant at point blank range and toss mines you will miss your target.  If you toss mines on a Dragon at point blank range it will work.

Personally, I've never thrown elemental mines as a DW artificer and had less than a quarter of them hit the enemy, but I guess experiences will differ.

[Bigdawg13]

How could you possibly "mess up" throwing elemental mines from melee distance? It's a bunch of hitboxes thrown in front of you in a wide arc. I suppose if you only using them on one enemy and that enemy happened to teleport at the right moment or something, but that's why you only use them on crowds or large lumbering targets.

Personally, I've never thrown elemental mines as a DW artificer and had less than a quarter of them hit the enemy, but I guess experiences will differ.

 

They don't instantly go off.  And often the enemies will flock to another location, especially if the AI tank taunts.  Sometimes they don't throw them out in the direction I expect, or the enemies get yanked by a pull of the abyss or other CC out of the way.  Regardless, elemental mines is usable by DW but it really hurts as a DW if you are left there naked without any way of avoiding damage.

 

But hey, if you want to argue that Artificer is really intended for DW go for it.  I won't argue anymore  I just don't see, nor agree, that Artificer is intended to be anything but ranged.  Until Bioware makes Hail of Arrows work for daggers, I'll stand by that assertion until the end of time.

[KaiserShep]

After controlling Varric for a while, I don't think I'd have as much fun with a dagger artificer.

[Duelist]

They don't instantly go off. And often the enemies will flock to another location, especially if the AI tank taunts. Sometimes they don't throw them out in the direction I expect, or the enemies get yanked by a pull of the abyss or other CC out of the way. Regardless, elemental mines is usable by DW but it really hurts as a DW if you are left there naked without any way of avoiding damage.

Evade, Flank Attack, Parry, Fallback Plan and possibly even Deathblow if the enemy's health is low enough.
A melee Artificer isn't defenseless after Elemental Mines.

I do agree that it's a spec geared more toward archers though but, IMO, it does offer more variety in how to build one's own archer than any other spec.

EDIT: Also, Spike Trap.

[draken-heart]

Bigdawg13: I was just pointing it out that the abilities sound like they were designed with a dual wielder in mind. The passives are designed for both sides, so work regardless. Long shot in the archery tree only does decent damage at 15 meters, quite a distance if you think about it. at five meters, I would probably be more focused on getting my archers AWAY from the fighting.

• Elemental mines sounds cool for an archer, until you realize that they are best serves as a close quarters control tool against GROUPS. Now if the enemy was coming AFTER you specifically, I could see it, but by then you are probably screwed or should stealth away anyways.
• Spike Trap is a melee control tool. I would assume as archer is not getting that close to an enemy.
• The passives are just that, passives, which work no matter your style of combat.
• Fallback Plan sounds like it was designed for dual wield rogues who are always in the melee and thus always at risk of getting smashed to pieces, while archer are at best mid-range in the end.

 

I personally feel that none of the specialization are best for archer or dual wield. If the party does it's job, all the specs will faceroll as either style. Artificer is, in my brain, the PASSIVES specialization, assassin is the Mark of Death/Hidden Blades spec, and Tempest is Flask of Fire/Flask of Lightning spec.

Modifié par draken-heart, 15 avril 2015 - 08:49 .

[Tharkun]

I base my Artificer Archers around Leaping Shot rather than Long Shot.  Long Shot isn't even in my chosen skills.  An Artificer Archer is like Yoda in Attack of the Clones.  He bounces around like mad and there is lightning everywhere.  

 

I use Explosive Shot as my long range shot but I also use it up close and mid range when I want to knock something down.  It is also how I get the attention of Gurn or other wildlife.

 

I use Hook and Tackle+ to move around in combat and Leaping Shot to bump up the distance.  When you are constantly changing your distance and vector to the target you start noticing how elemental mines has a pretty long range.  I also use Evade when I am out of Hook and Tackle range for closing with my target or just moving around.

 

I use Stealth+ for the opener and to remove fire, poison, etc.  An Artificer Archer is a weird combo between the Legolas from the movies and Yoda.  It isn't a classic archer.

 

I am not arguing that an Archer archetype is best suited to use traps.  I am arguing that of the DA:I implementations the Archer Rogue has a better skill set for the Artificer spec than the Dagger Rogue.  So not a Platonic ideal archer but the way the game works with Archers.  The strafing, the range of the attacks, and the tactics those mechanics enable make the Archer a more natural Artificer than the Dagger rogue.

 

Note an Artificer Archer uses totally different skills and tactics than an Assassin Archer or Tempest Archer.  The Rogue specs are actually some of the most different in the game.  Mage specs aren't all that different from one another.

[draken-heart]

I hate it when people try to justify a particular specialization as a specific weapon style. Archers and dual wielders can both make use the artificer tree just like they both can utilize the assassin and tempest specializations. The way I see it, there is no "archer specialization" in the sense of "this spec is just made for archers". Instead the archer specialization is the archer tree, not any of the specializations in game:

• Artificer is best used with a party that has high crit chance, otherwise it cannot utilize it's abilities (archery or Dual wield) at all. The only real differences between the two styles of artificer are which trap (mines/spike) and the focus ability. Otherwise it is the same for both.
• Tempest requires chaining the flasks to be any good, not a single weapon style
• Assassin may seem like a dual wield specialization, but you can still use it well with an

[draken-heart]

In the end, all specialization play differently for both weapon styles. Artificers play differently as dual wield compared to an archer, assassin has a different playstyle for an archer rather than dual wield, etc. IT all depends on what the player wants from their character.

 

I plan to play either two handed champion or two handed templar Qunari myself, as I find having more than one rogue is just plain overkill.

[Duelist]

I hate it when people try to justify a particular specialization as a specific weapon style. Archers and dual wielders can both make use the artificer tree just like they both can utilize the assassin and tempest specializations. The way I see it, there is no "archer specialization" in the sense of "this spec is just made for archers". Instead the archer specialization is the archer tree, not any of the specializations in game:

• Artificer is best used with a party that has high crit chance, otherwise it cannot utilize it's abilities (archery or Dual wield) at all. The only real differences between the two styles of artificer are which trap (mines/spike) and the focus ability. Otherwise it is the same for both.
• Tempest requires chaining the flasks to be any good, not a single weapon style
• Assassin may seem like a dual wield specialization, but you can still use it well with an

On Artificer: the beauty of that spec is that there is more than one way to play it.
Myself, and Tharkun it seems, prefer to use Hook And Tackle to join the fray with Leaping Shot and Elemental Mines to lower cooldowns without relying on party members.

Tempest on the other hand is...odd.
Flask of Frost is better for melee but the other two flasks are good for either melee or ranged.

Assassin works for either but it works even better with a bow, if only to get the most out of Full Draw.