430 réponses à ce sujet

[hitorihanzo]

Orogenic wrote...

hitorihanzo wrote...


Case in point:  There was a guy who made movies- some of the most successful ever made.  He then made a prequel trilogy to those movies and tried to "reinvent the wheel', be be revolutionary, so to speak.  The majority of the prequels didn't have the same "feel" as the ones that preceeded it.  Consequently, he did great damage to his brand. 


For my money, ME2 is better in just about every way.

Funny that you bring up Star Wars... I started thinking about Jar Jar Binks about halfway through the first mission in ME 2....

I'm trying to think of what qualifies as the first mission.  Freedom's progress colony?

[infinityBCRT]

The shooter elements added and refined in ME2 would not have hurt the game concept of ME1 to the fans of RPGs. It was the removal of the other stuff that gave some depth to the world and gameplay that weren't executed that well is what is disappointing to fan of RPGS whereas shooter fans couldn't care less it seems. But I think both sides would have enjoyed the game had they refined the flawed elements from ME1 instead of throwing them out.

Modifié par infinityBCRT, 29 janvier 2010 - 06:37 .

[screwoffreg]

I am bored of all the negative criticisms. Bioware took some risks with the reliable RPG formula and I think it paid off. This is coming from someone who thought dinky shareware RPG's like Exile were fun and who loves Final Fantasy IV as much as I do Baldurs Gate II.



There is NO other company like Bioware on the market who reliably makes quality story driven games and there are few other companies that care what their fans think and actually INTEGRATE their wishes into the game. ME 2 was basically huge fanservice as they took every valid complaint and corrected it the best they could. Hell, they even added the most fan demanded romance and I am sure if we demanded a white wedding scene in the third game they might even add that.

[rockchild123]

As I play the game more and more I am coming around to enjoying it. I think my intial negative reaction was based purely on TOO much change without giving it a chance. Having said that, a serious intelligent discussion needs to be thrown around about the resouce scanning. I literally feel asleep scanning my second planet and I had not been playing all that long. It is too much of a chore and is not stimulating at all.

[Schneidend]

Even after the game's been out for days, this kind of perspective still prevails? I just can't understand how people see ME2 as less of an RPG than ME1. I mean, the emphasis of the gameplay is on powers, rather than just gunplay. An Adept in ME1 couldn't kill enemies simply by hitting them with Master Warp, but the explosion caused by Unstable Warp on a group of Singularity'd/Pull'd enemies can certainly kill them. That's just one combination.



People were complaining this game was going to be a shooter. How can that possibly be the case if the skills have greater emphasis than they did in the first game? In the first game you HAD to shoot your guns. A lot. In the sequel, Engineers, Sentinels, and Adepts can murder hordes of enemies without firing a single shot. If the game has more emphasis on character building, skill use, and strategy, how is it not an RPG?

[Twitchmonkey]

Nope, not bored, I'd say ME2 has a lot more replayability than ME1 really. ME1 had big areas of talking (the Citadel quests, anyone?) which while I loved the first time through and replaying them differently in the next playthrough, really started to become a drudgery in the third and fourth playthroughs. ME2 is just fun to play, the story is there and it does progress, but you're never more than 10 minutes away from some shooter goodness.

[rockchild123]

Schneidend wrote...

Even after the game's been out for days, this kind of perspective still prevails? I just can't understand how people see ME2 as less of an RPG than ME1. I mean, the emphasis of the gameplay is on powers, rather than just gunplay. An Adept in ME1 couldn't kill enemies simply by hitting them with Master Warp, but the explosion caused by Unstable Warp on a group of Singularity'd/Pull'd enemies can certainly kill them. That's just one combination.

People were complaining this game was going to be a shooter. How can that possibly be the case if the skills have greater emphasis than they did in the first game? In the first game you HAD to shoot your guns. A lot. In the sequel, Engineers, Sentinels, and Adepts can murder hordes of enemies without firing a single shot. If the game has more emphasis on character building, skill use, and strategy, how is it not an RPG?

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you.  I do not see any real character building in this game other than small choices and upgrades.  You are basically force fed your limited powers.  And the lack of a "true" inventory also limits your perspective in terms of more control over your character.  I dont have the feeling of exploration and overwhelming scope that a great RPG provides.  On the other hand this is not a strong argument to go back to the ME1 version either it simple looks and plays (combat) too good to revert to ME1 play style.  I think the RPGers should agrue for compromise in ME3.  Throw us a bone.

[Orogenic]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

ME2 is just fun to play, the story is there and it does progress, but you're never more than 10 minutes away from some shooter goodness.

I say this with zero sarcasm and nothing but respect:

I believe you have hit on the heart of the issue here.

To those that love shooters, this is a good thing.

To those of us that look at shooting as a means to an end, this is perhaps not such a good thing : )

[screwoffreg]

The old style RPG gamers somehow look fondly on some of the very things that made such games NEEDLESSLY frustrating. I have played RPG's for years now, so I know what style of games these people prefer and I like them too! At the same time, realize Bioware is doing something very different with ME, and that is trying to get a solid RPG story with a vibrant and exciting combat experience. In ME 1, I walked into a room, spammed singularity and lift and laughed as everyone flew around and died. In ME 2, I had to use cover, tell squadmates where to go, and coordinate to win battles. That's a huge difference.



As for story, there are so many damn lines of text in this game that if you don't think there is enough interaction...well, I don't know what to tell you.

[Twitchmonkey]

Orogenic wrote...

I say this with zero sarcasm and nothing but respect:

I believe you have hit on the heart of the issue here.

To those that love shooters, this is a good thing.

To those of us that look at shooting as a means to an end, this is perhaps not such a good thing : )

I love shooters an I love RPGs, I simply think that a good RPG should have its dialouge and story propelled by solid gameplay. I simply cannot find the enjoyment in 2 hours of concentrated story with no fighting like in the Citadel in ME1, especially not after my first two playthroughs. I feel like ME2 has delivered a significantly longer and deeper experience that can spread out its story elements and not come out any weaker because of it, due to there being so much more content there. I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't know much less story in ME2 than in ME1, just a lot more combat which keeps it from getting stale.

[Schneidend]

rockchild123 wrote...

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you.  I do not see any real character building in this game other than small choices and upgrades.  You are basically force fed your limited powers.  And the lack of a "true" inventory also limits your perspective in terms of more control over your character.  I dont have the feeling of exploration and overwhelming scope that a great RPG provides.  On the other hand this is not a strong argument to go back to the ME1 version either it simple looks and plays (combat) too good to revert to ME1 play style.  I think the RPGers should agrue for compromise in ME3.  Throw us a bone.

Small choices? Limited powers? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. ME2 has made each choice have greater impact. Merely choosing between evolutions is usually a tough decision- (although there are powers where one evolution is clearly cuperior, admittedly- but even before that you have to decide which powers are going to be developed to that point. With Shepard, evolving your class' unique skill is generally your best option, but before and after that you have to make other investments. Even at max level, you can't have every power maximized, especially if you're putting points into a seventh skill. Limitations create choices.

[rockchild123]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

I say this with zero sarcasm and nothing but respect:

I believe you have hit on the heart of the issue here.

To those that love shooters, this is a good thing.

To those of us that look at shooting as a means to an end, this is perhaps not such a good thing : )

I love shooters an I love RPGs, I simply think that a good RPG should have its dialouge and story propelled by solid gameplay. I simply cannot find the enjoyment in 2 hours of concentrated story with no fighting like in the Citadel in ME1, especially not after my first two playthroughs. I feel like ME2 has delivered a significantly longer and deeper experience that can spread out its story elements and not come out any weaker because of it, due to there being so much more content there. I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't know much less story in ME2 than in ME1, just a lot more combat which keeps it from getting stale.

What you call stale some of us call open environment exploration.  The whole end mission screen and being on and off the normandy no longer has a open continuity to it.  Now its just a carrot dangling in front of me in a closed off hallway.  And I didn't want to mention this little small oversight for fear that it will wreck peoples' experience, but I feel complelled.  "Saving Content" message in the bottom left corner of the screen is a big freaking sign that says Enemys ahead.  Again lead down a somewhat predictable path. 

[Orogenic]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

I say this with zero sarcasm and nothing but respect:

I believe you have hit on the heart of the issue here.

To those that love shooters, this is a good thing.

To those of us that look at shooting as a means to an end, this is perhaps not such a good thing : )

I love shooters an I love RPGs, I simply think that a good RPG should have its dialouge and story propelled by solid gameplay. I simply cannot find the enjoyment in 2 hours of concentrated story with no fighting like in the Citadel in ME1, especially not after my first two playthroughs. I feel like ME2 has delivered a significantly longer and deeper experience that can spread out its story elements and not come out any weaker because of it, due to there being so much more content there. I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't know much less story in ME2 than in ME1, just a lot more combat which keeps it from getting stale.

I respect where you are coming from.  For me, long sequences of interaction/ dialogue seemed to cement my connection with the characters and made the combat sequences feel more important (gave them context).

In ME 2 I feel like I'm constantly running around shooting stuff because... I don't know.... it's there?

It may seem odd to you but I've walked away from the game mid-fight on several occasions because constant combat just gets boring after a while.

[Litos456]

I agree with the OP. I hope Bioware learns from these mistakes. They're not terrible, but pretty bad.



Enough to make me feel like there's no point of living unless you are Shepard and you have to save the galaxy though.



But still, I hope that ME3 will be the best game ever, combining the emotional and story aspects of the first game with the technical and entertaining (combat) aspects of the second together.

[Twitchmonkey]

Orogenic wrote...

I respect where you are coming from.  For me, long sequences of interaction/ dialogue seemed to cement my connection with the characters and made the combat sequences feel more important (gave them context).

In ME 2 I feel like I'm constantly running around shooting stuff because... I don't know.... it's there?

It may seem odd to you but I've walked away from the game mid-fight on several occasions because constant combat just gets boring after a while.

Fair enough. People bought Shenmue (myself included, pretty good game actually) so I suppose not everyone minds long periods of pure story and dialouge. My only issue is one of replayability, I don't see those elements holding up to subsequent playthroughs as well as combat elements, but that's me.

[Orogenic]

Twitchmonkey wrote...


Fair enough. People bought Shenmue (myself included, pretty good game actually) so I suppose not everyone minds long periods of pure story and dialouge. My only issue is one of replayability, I don't see those elements holding up to subsequent playthroughs as well as combat elements, but that's me.

I can see that.  It's nice to be able to share different points of view in a civil and constructive manner, btw : )

Modifié par Orogenic, 29 janvier 2010 - 09:10 .

[rockchild123]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

I respect where you are coming from.  For me, long sequences of interaction/ dialogue seemed to cement my connection with the characters and made the combat sequences feel more important (gave them context).

In ME 2 I feel like I'm constantly running around shooting stuff because... I don't know.... it's there?

It may seem odd to you but I've walked away from the game mid-fight on several occasions because constant combat just gets boring after a while.

Fair enough. People bought Shenmue (myself included, pretty good game actually) so I suppose not everyone minds long periods of pure story and dialouge. My only issue is one of replayability, I don't see those elements holding up to subsequent playthroughs as well as combat elements, but that's me.

I actually dread a replay through with scanning planets again. 

[Feanor_II]

Some changes have been for good (Hack and unlocking minigames, combat system, the research and improvements of weapons, armor...), others not (wiping out inventory and planet exploration, BioWare, the target was to improved them, anyway I think that something in the middle between ME1 and ME2 should be the objetive), but overall it's very good game. I wouldn't dare to say that's worse than the first chapter.....

[Twitchmonkey]

rockchild123 wrote...
I actually dread a replay through with scanning planets again. 

True. I can see the benefits of having resources for the sake of the research system, but you really should have been able to fund your research with resources found in missions, with planet scanning available if you missed something or wanted to speed research along. As it stands, finding resources in missions barely supplements scanning, forcing you to scan to be able to unlock anything really.

[NoBrand0nMe]

Beaten ME1 atleast 10-15 times and enjoy it every time. Just started on my second ME2 playthrough and it has gotten very dull. The entire game seems to involve getting a crew together while ME1 was just an epic story.

[Wintermist]

2 complete playthroughs and several half through ones. I'M SO NOT BORED YET. Not by a longshot.

[infinityBCRT]

screwoffreg wrote...

I am bored of all the negative criticisms. Bioware took some risks with the reliable RPG formula and I think it paid off. This is coming from someone who thought dinky shareware RPG's like Exile were fun and who loves Final Fantasy IV as much as I do Baldurs Gate II.

There is NO other company like Bioware on the market who reliably makes quality story driven games and there are few other companies that care what their fans think and actually INTEGRATE their wishes into the game. ME 2 was basically huge fanservice as they took every valid complaint and corrected it the best they could. Hell, they even added the most fan demanded romance and I am sure if we demanded a white wedding scene in the third game they might even add that.

No, they didn't take some risks. An Gears of War esque-game is not a risk. An RPG with light shooting elements is not a risk. A RPG-Shooter hybrid (where both the RPG and Shooter elements are fleshed out but easy to comprehend for people who are only into one side of the equation) would be a bolder move by BioWare.

[Godzilla vs Xenu]

Nope.

[Orogenic]

infinityBCRT wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I am bored of all the negative criticisms. Bioware took some risks with the reliable RPG formula and I think it paid off. This is coming from someone who thought dinky shareware RPG's like Exile were fun and who loves Final Fantasy IV as much as I do Baldurs Gate II.

There is NO other company like Bioware on the market who reliably makes quality story driven games and there are few other companies that care what their fans think and actually INTEGRATE their wishes into the game. ME 2 was basically huge fanservice as they took every valid complaint and corrected it the best they could. Hell, they even added the most fan demanded romance and I am sure if we demanded a white wedding scene in the third game they might even add that.

No, they didn't take some risks. An Gears of War esque-game is not a risk. An RPG with light shooting elements is not a risk. A RPG-Shooter hybrid (where both the RPG and Shooter elements are fleshed out but easy to comprehend for people who are only into one side of the equation) would be a bolder move by BioWare.

Have to agree.  I couldn't imagine a "safer" move businesswise than what they did... making the sequel into a simplified, linear TPS that really requires no thought at all.  A playthrough feels like being on a conveyor belt.. I don't even feel like I really need to be there (sometimes I wish I weren't).  I'm still trying to give this game a chance... but every time I boot it up I just get angry thinking about what might have been.

[pawpal]

I completed ME 2 last night and I regret buying it. While there are nice aspects to the game it's incredibly generic and simplified. Really really dumbed down.



Additionally, why have us spend so much time building (or rebuilding if you've played ME) up our teams just to finish the main story line in two missions? It's like watching a three hour movie that spends most of the time on the first act, has no second act, and finishes off with a brief five minute third act. It feels more like a reboot of ME to cater to a wider audience