459 réponses à ce sujet

[Toasted Llama]

I don't see much extra cost, but I went over it in the last post. The upside if you don't care about the HoF, I'd try to sell you on, is a full expansion with a new character, a new adventure in new places, with a new party (with a few returning series favorites), in an upgraded, next level iteration of DA:I, with just as much content whether you play the HoF or not. There's no rule that says the story has to be all about the Warden cure, or spend a lot of time in the Deep Roads or whatever. Who knows what the story entails? It's as wide open as any other potential expansion, with the added benefit of potential major franchise storytelling moments for those of us that care for them, and a complete adventure for everyone with other new big new moments for everyone.

 

edit: In short, if you don't want the HoF, don't get hung up on the HoF, because you'd have a big shiny new full featured expansion either way. HoF optional.

 

edit: @GenericEnemy 

..Or look enthusiastic, innovative, smart, and independent. Depends on your attitude.

Then what's the point of adding the HoF? Extra unnecessary costs when you admit some random new character with a blank slate for a personality might as well do the trick.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The Warden is too OP for Inquisition since he can be a dual wielding multi-specialized Warrior, every poor Sod in Thedas would die.

[Jackums]

No.

 

The only thing more mind-numbingly repetitive than the HoF returning would be another thread about the HoF returning.

[cindercatz]

Decisions are made exactly based on that. It's cost vs. reward risk calculation. If you're saying sometimes risks outweigh the cost failure, sure. But it's ridiculous to think that you should never take negative consequences into account when deciding to pursue a given course of action. 

I'm not saying you don't weigh the potential cost against reward. I'm saying the extra cost is negligible, the risk of failure is minimal, and the reward is high value, in terms of sales, franchise story coherence, and potential emotional resonance. 

 

I'll say this: The cost of not doing it is far higher from my perspective. It's the difference in maintaining suspension of disbelief, because as is, it's nonexistent unless this gets fixed. Right now to me, DA:O is a great story and one of my favorite games. DA:I is a cute toy with thankfully better love scenes, but regressed almost everywhere else. Until this is fixed, I'm feeling pretty ambivalent about the series, because I know they're not really committed to making the best games and presenting the best story possible, so much as they're making safe little toyboxes that try to tickle just enough chins to keep the ship afloat. I don't really care for the gameplay anymore, the aRPG way it's gone, so if they aren't committed to the best story and continuity possible, I won't really care anymore. I'm most likely done trying to get through a second pt until there's some really good dlc to break up the monotony. I'm only invested at this point because DA:O was great and the potential in continuity is great. But they're playing with a handicap of their own making. So they need to raise the bar, or there's no point. Doing the HoF's reappearance right, committing to stronger continuity and higher storytelling standards would open up those possibilities. Continuing to disregard this, continuing to play it safe and generic (outside their meta goals), would fail to meet that standard.

 

Some things are better in this game (primarily in-game romance scenes and general graphics), but to me it's like an olympic sprinter running with a torn tendon. There's no way it can live up to its potential with these severe, self-imposed limitations.

[cindercatz]

But you're layering a second set of reactivity on top of the existing reactivity, right. That still strikes me as a substantial cost, especially when you talk about going Citadel with the DLC. Whether the expenditure is "unreasonable" depends on the expected payout of adding the feature. Of course it's going to look reasonable to you, since you really want the Warden back. And for those of us who don't?

Though I think you're on the right general track with the argument. You're not going to sell people on bringing the Warden back being a good thing, but you might be able to sell some of them on the feature not doing enough damage to be worth opposing.

I'd go semi-Citadel with any expansion, featuring any lead character though. That's the bar for any expansion as far as I'm concerned. Might as well be a simple dlc otherwise. That doesn't mean it's just DA:Citadel though, just that you need some unique relationship based scenes just like the core game has. The second level of reactivity would usually only apply as an npc. The actual number of instances I'd expect it to matter in that case, you could count on one hand. So really, the extra cost would still be minimal. As far as I see it.

[DuskWanderer]

Nope. Don't want the HoF returning. Nothing you can do will convince me otherwise. 

[cindercatz]

And I don't trust it to be done right.  Not as you described it, not in any way I have yet heard.  I want my Warden's fate to be left to my imagination.  I don't want a heroic end.  I don't want a last adventure.  My Wardens already saved Thedas once.  That's plenty.

 

Heck I didn't even want Hawke to make an appearance.  I certainly didn't want him to leave Merrill behind in Kirkwall, especially after Varric said she stayed at his side.

 

 

Gameplay has nothing to do with it:  it's story.  I'm happy with how my Wardens' stories ended, and I don't want to disturb that.  Give me new characters, and new companions, to go with the new stories.

I respect that, but like the OP said, their story's already changed as of DA:I, and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to send them off to headcanon land and play the game with a new character. You'd get to keep BioWare's paws off your HoF and play a new character. Since the HoF has to be replaceable anyway, the price of doing that is a menu option at cc and an epilogue style write up, along the lines of the existing DA:A epilogue slides. Your choice. But those of us who want that story handled on-screen would get that opportunity. I could also continue my story as intended. That's all I'm saying.

[segurissima]

Many people are asking here for closure for the HoF. What kind of closure? I think the story of HoF was prety much and pretty well closed in DAO, either he/she is dead, went throuh the Eluvian, is a queen, or king or stayed a warden. Anyone seriosly expecting some DLC a' la " I want to see the blue children" in Mass Effect?

[Mummy22kids]

(as I said in another thread) If you want closure I have it- Every Warden (HoF or orlesian) fails to find the cure and dies on their calling. Done and Done.

[Broganisity]

On the topic of possible companions, you forget the current and growing stable of champions from the Multiplayer Mode. They feature in the Single Player via physical appearance and story missions. It would not take as much writing to flesh them out more into the companions of a hero.

[cindercatz]

Too bad none of this actually matters since half the community has a dead Warden due to the Ultimate Sacrifice. Face the facts and recognize the Warden will not be returning. David Gaider, lead writer and authority on all things Dragon Age, has already explicitly said the Warden is not coming back, getting another game, getting any kind of DLC, or any other nonsense. His/her minor presence in DAI was purely fan service for those whose Warden actually lived either because of the dark ritual or they sacrificed another warden. The same will be the case of Hawke, who the player could either choose to live or die. Hawke's role in Thedas is now over and he/she will not return.

 

The only character that matters at all at this point is the Inquisitor. Knowing Gaider, he'll likely jump to a new hero and the Inquisitor will become irrelevant. That has been the trend of Dragon Age, unlike Mass Effect. Better get used to it...

Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with David Gaider or half the outspoken devs for that matter. And I was right then too. No disrespect, I like him well enough. Probably most of the good things about this game (other than inside creative aspects like the cast of characters, etc.) are things David or another dev made statements against at some point, and I argued for. Probably everything but improved graphics.

 

edit: ^^^^ I agree about promoting a few of the mp characters to full companions. I don't play mp, but some of them could be very interesting.

[cindercatz]

Then what's the point of adding the HoF? Extra unnecessary costs when you admit some random new character with a blank slate for a personality might as well do the trick.

Continuity, getting all those important missing story beats in there (some of which have been anticipated for years), dramatic weight, series story cohesion, and removing that shackle so characters that should be in a scene can be from now on. Suspension of disbelief can be restored. Having Leliana and Morrigan prominently in this game without the Hero is like a double++ reminder that they just don't want to do it, no matter what makes sense for the story. But they still want their toys. And I agree that characters should be available to continue on, especially great characters like M&L, but that also includes player characters. Otherwise the story breaks down. You don't have natural progression. Then it's just like a toybox with a semblance of story tacked on. Like you're playing Barbie or G.I.Joe in your playset.

 

The DR for instance, has to be minimized. What does a character's survival even matter? How does the Well of Sorrows ever pay off if Quizzy can't show? Why have characters involved in the Ferelden monarchy if that just means everything around it can never be anything more than a footnote precisely because it was a 'significant' choice you could make? It has the effect of trivializing everything you touch. So who cares about any of it?

 

(edit: It's seriously to the point that 'choice' in these games is almost a running joke. Who expects any decision you make to ever pay off at all now? Who expects anything you want to see pay off to ever actually matter? That's my proof. That's why it's important. It's killing the whole idea of choice driven narrative. It's personally why I can't wait for Tell Tale and Quantic Dream games, but I'm getting increasingly ambivalent about BioWare. I don't even follow the updates about Mass Effect, and that's definitely been the superior series so far. Couldn't care less about their mp game, whatever it's called.)

 

The disappearing hero schtick is an artifact that needs to go away imo. But I understand some people still prefer total headcanon, or are convinced it can't be done right at this point (by how they didn't give us options with Hawke or whatever). I'm fine if you have that option. The HoF was a silent protag that can live or die, so it's easy to accommodate.

[Cz-99]

My Hero was an elven blood mage who let a Tevinter slaver use blood magic to sacrifice a handful of elven slaves so that my Hero can get +1 Constitution. He also shagged or attempted to shag every woman he met.

 

He's far too busy visiting health clinics and avoiding a well-deserved prison sentence to come back and be a hero once more.

[TK514]

Nah, my Warden is dead, and he had a very nice tomb in Redcliffe.  When the last of the Therins finally kicks the bucket without issue, my warden's brother is the most likely candidate to take the throne, so even the family is rising the greater heights.

 

Couldn't ask for anything better than that.

[Mikka-chan]

Having the HoF suddenly come back would probably make me drop the series, honestly.  Half of my Wardens are dead, the other half I have my own ideas about, and all of them Bioware would never get right.  If possible, I'd rather not hear anything about the HoF again.

 

If they need it for later in the series, they can just be like 'Oh, one of our best Agents found a cure!' and not go in to details because we're probably not going to be playing a Grey Warden and it's none of our business, anyway.  (People already know far too much about the Wardens, suddenly- how does Inquisitor know that the joining can be fatal when a guy who competed to join the Grey Warden's didn't?)  Personally, I approve of Gaider and Weekes decisions to move on with the series rather then drag along a someone who has no ties to what's going on and attempt to force them to fit just for to make some whiny people happy and add fanservice.

[Leo]

Considering how they handled Hawke, I really don't want to see how Bioware handles the Warden.

[dantares83]

the warden can die in DAO, so that explains why he/she is never going to appear again. anyway, the warden did have closure in DAO/DAA, just not so in Witch Hunt.   i bet by the next game/DLC, the quest for finding the cure proves unsuccessful and he/she died officially.

 

They included Hawke for closure since he/she is not dead in DA2 and the closure was supposed to happen in the expansion pack (Exalted March) but never happen.

[In Exile]

the warden can die in DAO, so that explains why he/she is never going to appear again. anyway, the warden did have closure in DAO/DAA, just not so in Witch Hunt.   i bet by the next game/DLC, the quest for finding the cure proves unsuccessful and he/she died officially.

 

They included Hawke for closure since he/she is not dead in DA2 and the closure was supposed to happen in the expansion pack (Exalted March) but never happen.

 

This whole insanity started when - like NWN:HoTU - the DA:A epilogue ended with saying "And the HOF did not vanish into the ether, but continued to live on after the end of this game and go on to have other adventures". 

 

People immediately took that to be sequel bait. 

[We'll bang okay]

If he does have to come back I want him to have a hero's end no dark ritual or anything like that  

[Nefla]

They'll bring the Warden back as a cameo/enemy when they make a true Dragon Age MMO. They'll disregard any player choice of course and make the Warden a straight white human male with dark hair, stubble, and a "good" personality and they will also bring back Hawke and again disregard player choice and make Hawke a straight white female who is now the Warden's love interest and dies for him.

 

...

 

Yay.

[In Exile]

They'll bring the Warden back as a cameo/enemy when they make a true Dragon Age MMO. They'll disregard any player choice of course and make the Warden a straight white human male with dark hair, stubble, and a "good" personality and they will also bring back Hawke and again disregard player choice and make Hawke a straight white female who is now the Warden's love interest and dies for him.

 

...

 

Yay.

And they'll outsource it to a writer who isn't familiar with the lore, making both Hawke and the Warden mages. 

 

[cindercatz]

(edit: response to a few posts up, not you last few guys, took a while)

 

"Whiney people." >< Most of the people posting didn't even read the OP, nevermind the thread. You'd leave if other people got to progress their characters while you lose nothing? This thread's making me ill.

 

@Dai Grepher

Great OP, but the thread title drew a lot of negative snap judgement from the nah-nah crowd. Sorry about that, man. I'm out.

 

@The people spewing vitriol-

Gotta vent..

I'm glad some of you guys were more fair. So if this doesn't apply to you, it's not meant to. But if this sentiment wins, the only way this thing will go is down. Creatively speaking. Yes that's a gross generalization, no I'm not overstating it, and yes that's a well developed, solidified opinion, with plenty of evidence behind it. Why should anybody care about anything that happens in these games, including the devs, if it's perfectly acceptable to hand wave everything you have any input into?  You may as well have set characters and set stories and no choice, no continuity, no series. You'd at least have some natural story progression, and apparently we're not encouraged to care what happens anyway. But then who would play it if not for the idea of a choice driven narrative? Investment in the actual story isn't rewarded very much, and if you suggest improvement you get the 'shut up' low expectations mob, people that just want to ***** at anybody that disagrees with them. Apparently they want mediocrity. Yes that's sarcasm. No I don't normally use sarcasm. Seems like I'm required to clearly state my intended tone every time I post anything about this. 'That's your opinion!' is not a reasonable response and doesn't add to the discussion. I'm sick of the vehement negativity.

 

You people complaining about the number of HoF threads or any other hot subject like it's the popular thing to do, there's a simple solution: Don't waste your time. Stop bleating about how you're so annoyed to see that somebody has something they want to discuss you might disagree with. If you don't have something to add, don't jump in just to text yell or insult people that do. You're behaving like a schoolyard bully clique. Go join the Drinkquisition instead. Lot more fun.

 

Sorry. This board's making me hate this game today.

Time for a break. No offense to the people who weren't being asses here. Thanks that.

[Sunnie]

That's right. Every fan of Dragon Age wants the Hero of Ferelden to return in the next game, and yes that includes you. This is a fact that I will prove objectively.

No, they don't.

 

Also...

[AlanC9]

(People already know far too much about the Wardens, suddenly- how does Inquisitor know that the joining can be fatal when a guy who competed to join the Grey Warden's didn't?)

I headcanon that my Wardens blabbed to everyone about the Joining.