138 réponses à ce sujet

[PapaCharlie9]

However, on the other hand, my issues lie with Gaspard, Briala, and Celene. I really didn't feel like I was effectively deciding the fate of an entire country. The choices presented lacked the impact that they should have had. At least to me.

 

And yes, I think it should have had more dialogue and "intrigue". And the whole sneaking around the palace felt way, way too easy. Especially climbing on the garden fence when half the damn nobles are literally two feet away.

That may be due in part to WE,WH being the epilogue of The Masked Empire novel by Patrick Weekes. I'm not saying reading the novel was expected or required, but you do get more out of that adventure if you know the backstories of all the characters, particularly Briala.

 

At least WE,WH follows naturally from the plot of The Masked Empire and adds to it. I can't say the same for The Calling by David Gaider. It's like DAI told the same story again, only on a larger scale.

[Heimdall]

Perhaps, but I struggle to think of how you could have tied those specific locations to the Mage Templar arc.

Well, what I'm suggesting would be a larger overhaul of the way the whole game fits together now.

[Korva]

Anyhow, this in particular is something I felt was sorely lacking. This might sound controversial, but I think some of the main story missions should've been gated behind a certain set of objectives in the relevant zones. Here Lies the Abyss is the best example for me, the mission is to invade an ancient fortress. It makes sense to me that the Inquisition would first gain control of the surrounding region before pushing onwards to the fortress. Instead it's simply gated behind power. I'd prefer it also if the location of the story mission is in a section of the open world zone, in this case Adamant, that you'd go to once the Inquisition is prepared.

 

Given how many people have expressed a desire for plot and game world to be more closely connected, I don't think that sounds controversial, and I very much agree with you. I recall looking for Adamant while I was in the Western Approach, and being rather disappointed that it wasn't even on the map and that there was no preparation for the siege at all. Having to establish a route to that place through exceedingly hostile territory, ensuring the availability of supplies (water for a whole army in the desert!) and a safe staging point (i.e. giving an actual purpose to taking Griffonwing), would have been really neat. Granted, you could say that's the job of Leliana's and Cullen's people ... but that applies to pretty much everything else we do, too. If we can scatter some dead guy's ashes and herd a druffalo home, surely we can be involved in the preparations for the Inquisition's first major campaign.

 

Speaking of that, it was Corypheus' power that made Skyhold levitate. Shouldn't it come crashing down when he was defeated?

 

The ruins and the mointainside in the final battle, yes. There is some rumbling and stumbling after he dies, but it's laughably minor. Everyone on those floating rocks should be bloody dead when they plummet back to earth from that height. It's one of the issues that make the final battle feel so over-the-top, silly and tryhard.

[Beregond5]

As others said, I really wished for something more out of the Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts arc. The dance with Florianne and how your answers gain court approval? Awesome. The little romantic dance with your LI? Sweet. But I haven't read Masked Empire, and the fact that I was expected to feel *something* for Briala, or Celene or Gaspard in spite of that really rubs me the wrong way. The way it's played out, the only thing I got from this was that they're all jerks and I wish there was an option of pulling a Cassandra on them and just walk away with a disgusted noise.

[Digger1967]

yet you still want to cut the Templar mission entirely and have nothing but praise for what is a very crappy intro to the Venatori

 

"Tevinter cultists show up and want to kill you, now let's make the face of them someone who is sympathetic and not exactly a leal subject of the Elder One"

 

Well truthfully it would make a little more sense from an RP aspect.  Even if you side with the Templars other than at the Battle for Haven not much really changes, you still end up dealing with Red Templars as one of your primary enemies and you really don't see much of the rebel mages after that.

 

Also the templar quest is awful - a seemingly never ending series of horribly long cut scenes filled with the nonsense spouting doofus in the silly hat, followed by you having to run back and forth and back and forth to save the templars in the main hall a dozen or so times.  That and the loot sucks.  i mean do I really need 400 pieces of red lyrium?  Doesn't seem to serve any purpose at all really.

 

Like many I'm not a huge fan of the time travel plot either, but just from a game play standpoint the mage quest seems to be a lot better planned and executed.  It also would have been nice to have been able to have an option where your not more or less hanging one side or the other completely out to dry.  If you go with the mages the low level new to the order templars are screwed, and vice versa, if you go with the templars the rebel mages are toast.  Would have been a lot better I think if you'd had an option not to more or less throw one set of people or the other under a bus.

[Digger1967]

As others said, I really wished for something more out of the Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts arc. The dance with Florianne and how your answers gain court approval? Awesome. The little romantic dance with your LI? Sweet. But I haven't read Masked Empire, and the fact that I was expected to feel *something* for Briala, or Celene or Gaspard in spite of that really rubs me the wrong way. The way it's played out, the only thing I got from this was that they're all jerks and I wish there was an option of pulling a Cassandra on them and just walk away with a disgusted noise.

 

What I want most out of Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts is an end to doors that can't be opened until you run all over the map finding some stupid little key shard or worse yet, a deer statue.  Wow, was that incredibly irritating.  What's the point of having a rogue, and then spending a point on a perk for "masterwork locks" on top of that, only to have the vast majority of the doors in the game inaccessible to you?  It's extremely irritating to say the least.

 

I'd also like the mercenary captain to become a companion - I mean at that point I've already been about cut scened to death and yet that one particular interaction never fails to make me laugh.

[jedidotflow]

For me, I think that was a problem of buildup.

 

We're very suddenly introduced to them and the conflict of the Civil War and expected to resolve it with pretty minimal background.

 

The problem is that the background is featured in a novel which not everyone did, or wants, to read.

[Emerald Rift]

As others said, I really wished for something more out of the Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts arc. The dance with Florianne and how your answers gain court approval? Awesome. The little romantic dance with your LI? Sweet. But I haven't read Masked Empire, and the fact that I was expected to feel *something* for Briala, or Celene or Gaspard in spite of that really rubs me the wrong way. The way it's played out, the only thing I got from this was that they're all jerks and I wish there was an option of pulling a Cassandra on them and just walk away with a disgusted noise.

 

To me it felt like I walked in on the climax and then was given the decision to how it ends with no clarification. If it had been more like Orzammar in DAO where there several quests that tied in where you learnt the key player's motivations and backgrounds so that you draw your own conclusion. Also the fact that I personally didn't feel the Civil War's effects at all and it just felt flat. All style and no substance.

[Qilune]

What Pride Has Wrought

Apparently, Morrigan, who's been living on some Maker-forsaken planet for the past decade  (except the last year or two), knows more about Elves than my own Dalish Elf. My Dalish elf mage had very, very little to say about anything while at the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan had ALL the things to say about it. I would've changed it up so MY elf was the one instigating the talking with Solas doing the adding or correcting quips. This is MY CHARACTER'S CULTURE, Morrigan! Shut your trap and go be a bird somewhere!

 

This one change would have made me feel far more involved, rather than just running around and making some squares light up, especially since my elf was romancing Solas at the time. It would've felt like one more nice thing they could've had together.

[Killdren88]

What Pride Has Wrought
<Snip>

To be fair that is more for the newbies to the franchise so they can understand the context of the story. But I do agree that being an ignorant fool in the third game is a bit silly. Perhaps an option at the start of the game asking you if you want all the basics of the lore is in order.

[RobRam10]

What Pride Has Wrought

Apparently, Morrigan, who's been living on some Maker-forsaken planet for the past decade  (except the last year or two), knows more about Elves than my own Dalish Elf. My Dalish elf mage had very, very little to say about anything while at the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan had ALL the things to say about it. I would've changed it up so MY elf was the one instigating the talking with Solas doing the adding or correcting quips. This is MY CHARACTER'S CULTURE, Morrigan! Shut your trap and go be a bird somewhere!

 

This one change would have made me feel far more involved, rather than just running around and making some squares light up, especially since my elf was romancing Solas at the time. It would've felt like one more nice thing they could've had together.

IIRC an elf inquisitor was suppose to have more say in the Temple but there was some code error or some **** like that.

[Catche Jagger]

To be perfectly honest, I feel like it should have been impossible to save Celene. Yeah, I know Celene's fans would have been pissed, but the stakes really needed raising during that quest and it would have reminded us of the fact that Corypheus is still a threat.

The option to let Celene die in the game also seems weird in the first place. The objective was to save her. To abandon to support one of two candidates that we would have known for only a few hours can be a bit difficult to reconcile if roleplaying.

[Melbella]

As others said, I really wished for something more out of the Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts arc. The dance with Florianne and how your answers gain court approval? Awesome. The little romantic dance with your LI? Sweet. But I haven't read Masked Empire, and the fact that I was expected to feel *something* for Briala, or Celene or Gaspard in spite of that really rubs me the wrong way. The way it's played out, the only thing I got from this was that they're all jerks and I wish there was an option of pulling a Cassandra on them and just walk away with a disgusted noise.

Trust me....reading the book won't make you like any of them any more. I believe your conclusion is correct.   

[SgtSteel91]

I would change In Hushed Whispers so that when Alexius was raving about the Elder One ruling the world, Fiona would have immediately switched sides and the rest of the mission was you, her, and the Redcliff Mages clearing Redcliff Castle of the Venatori.

 

Like after you thwart Alexius' trap he retreats, then you, your companions, your agents, Felix, and Fiona fight your way to the castle gate so Fiona can get mages from Redcliff to help you. Your agents hold the gates while you and your group starts clearing the Venatori inside the castle. Your companions express doubt if Fiona will keep her word or just bail on you. Felix offers to go with her or stay and help your agents defend the gates (if he leaves with Fiona, then your agents all perish holding the gates or something). While fighting through the Castle, you get cornered by the Venatori before Fiona and mages from Redcliff come in and save you. Then it's a big brawl with you and Fiona's forces clearing the way to Alexius. Fiona's a Knight Enchanter so you see her busting out a spirit blade. But when you get to Alexius he uses time Magic to stop time to try and kill you, but Dorian counters it since he helped develop it. The final fight with Alexius has the battle moved to different time periods as his health goes down (The Frostbacks when the Breach first opens, in Val Royeaxu during the Grand Cleric's speach, and Redcliff Village when Alexius first made his offer to Fiona; time's still frozen so everything's just scenery). At the end he's exhausted his magic and surrenders at Felix's urging.

 

Then the rulers of Fereldan come in with their army and everything proceeds the same in whether you recruit the Mages as allies or conscripts.

[PapaCharlie9]

everything pointed to a siege of Skyhold

I'm holding on to the hope that we'll see a battle at Skyhold in a DLC, or maybe a big part of DA4. Otherwise, this is my #2 choice for plot point to change. Skyhold is a textbook Chekov's Gun setup. Don't show me a stronghold that you leave vulnerable (because all the forces are still on their way back from the Arbor Wilds) and then stage the climatic battle in the ruins next door that no one cares about.

[Beregond5]

Trust me....reading the book won't make you like any of them any more. I believe your conclusion is correct. 

Oh, okay then.

[Basement Cat]

What Pride Has Wrought

Apparently, Morrigan, who's been living on some Maker-forsaken planet for the past decade  (except the last year or two), knows more about Elves than my own Dalish Elf. My Dalish elf mage had very, very little to say about anything while at the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan had ALL the things to say about it. I would've changed it up so MY elf was the one instigating the talking with Solas doing the adding or correcting quips. This is MY CHARACTER'S CULTURE, Morrigan! Shut your trap and go be a bird somewhere!

 

This one change would have made me feel far more involved, rather than just running around and making some squares light up, especially since my elf was romancing Solas at the time. It would've felt like one more nice thing they could've had together.

Well, if you consider who Morrigan's mother is... She would know a great deal about the ancient elves.

[Sifr]

Well wasn't the false calling essentially restricted to Fereldan and Orlais anyway? I'm pretty sure other orders weren't affected. Also I was under the impression the exile wasn't any worse than the historical banishment from Fereldan. I thought the point was that the Wardens were to leave Southern Thedas only whilst Corypheus remained a threat. And I think the events at Weisshaupt sound quite intriguing, seems like DLC material to me. They're just going through a rough patch, it would be weird if they didn't since Corypheus has such power over them.

 

Yeah, Duncan/Loghain/Stroud explicitly said that "Every Warden in Orlais began to hear the Calling", without indicating that this was true of all Wardens everywhere, so the effect could be only affecting Wardens that were within Orlais at the time it manifested? While the Fereldan Wardens have vanished, we don't know if it's at all related and since they're a small chapter compared to Orlais, it could be that they just closed ranks and went to ground when they realised something was up with the lot next door?

 

As for stuff I'd change... well, that's rather difficult as I honestly felt the entire game never really accepted the sheer level of calamity that was supposed to be going on and that everything was simply too easy to resolve?

 

Part of what I liked about the previous games was how in DAO, the Warden often was given a few choices in various situations on how they could deal with them, while DA2 was interesting because Hawke was often was stuck in no-win scenarios where the right choice was never cut and dry?

 

In comparison, the Inquisitor feels very railroaded and they're not really involved in actually making the decisions that resolve the situations they find themselves in? By the time we show up, most of the conflicts have fizzled out and stalemated, so half the time I felt less like the last hope for Thedas who making the touch decisions and more like the guy walking in at the end and simply announcing who the winner was?

 

Truly, I'd have liked to have worked to guarantee our victory a lot more, forcing us to go on the defensive at times? At no point after Haven did I feel like Corypheus was endangering the Inquisition or it's people and we just kept winning over and over, making it rather dull?

 

Likewise, it should have been harder to resolve the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian Civil War so that whatever side we chose, we had to deal with the consequences and repurcussions rather than have them limited to just a scant few war-table missions?

 

Gaspard or Celene loyalists should not have so easily stood down after Halamshiral? If Celene was assassinated, then her loyalists should have been unwilling to bend the knee to Gaspard and instead launched a plot to remove him from power, while if Gaspard is executed, perhaps his forces rally around another claimaint that we have to deal with? Perhaps the losing side could have gone rogue like the Freeman of the Dales or decided to keep fighting the war regardless, forcing us to step in and help restore order?

 

The Mage-Templar War also felt hugely anti-climatic because it never really resolved so much as stopped? Honestly it felt sometimes like Corypheus should have been given the accolades for ending that conflict, because his taking control of the side you didn't ally with really ended the war, not us?

 

The game should have been a lot harder to resolve, but it kept giving us victory on a silver platter and praising us for it?

[PapaCharlie9]

Yeah, Duncan/Loghain/Stroud explicitly said that "Every Warden in Orlais began to hear the Calling", without indicating that this was true of all Wardens everywhere, so the effect could be only affecting Wardens that were within Orlais at the time it manifested? While the Fereldan Wardens have vanished, we don't know if it's at all related and since they're a small chapter compared to Orlais, it could be that they just closed ranks and went to ground when they realised something was up with the lot next door?

Interesting, I didn't recall that. I found a video of the whole cutscene and indeed, Stroud says what you quoted.

 

BUT

 

In the same cutscene, he also says some contradictory things that muddle the interpretation.

 

"If the Wardens fall, who will stand against the next Blight? It is our greatest fear."

 

Why would he say that if Wardens outside of Orlais are not affected and/or have not disappeared?

 

When the IQ asked if Stroud heard the Calling also, keeping in mind that this meeting is in Crestwood, which is in Fereldan:

 

"Sadly, yes. It lurks like a wolf in the shadows around a campfire."

 

So maybe Stroud only meant to say what he knew. He knows through his investigation that all of Orlais was affected and he fears it goes beyond that. He hears the calling even then, in Crestwood.

 

Honestly, I want to agree with your interpretation, since that basically is the way I would change the plot anyway, but I have to go with my first read. That conversation and the bulk of the rest of the game lore, particularly in the encounter in the Western Approach, suggests to me that the false Calling affects all Wardens and puts the entire Order at risk.

[AresKeith]

 

Interesting, I didn't recall that. I found a video of the whole cutscene and indeed, Stroud says what you quoted.

 

BUT

 

In the same cutscene, he also says some contradictory things that muddle the interpretation.

 

"If the Wardens fall, who will stand against the next Blight? It is our greatest fear."

 

Why would he say that if Wardens outside of Orlais are not affected and/or have not disappeared?

 

Because the other Wardens probably wouldn't show up in time if a Blight would happen in Orlais 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I would eliminate Champions of the Just and include both Samson and Calpernia as adversaries in one playthrough.

 

Yeah, let's remove one of the best main plot mission Bioware has made yet.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, let's remove one of the best main plot mission Bioware has made yet.

Er, how is it good? It does nothing at all to elaborate on the red templars beyond "blaaargh, mooks!," is largely taken up by Envy's machinations, and the idea of a shapeshifting, identity-stealing envy demon doesn't even particularly make sense (demons don't necessarily embody what they represent, which is why not all sloth demons are slothful and why not all desire demons are lustful; rather, they seek to impart it in others). The Fade sequence is... somewhat interesting, but has nothing to do with the templar plot; really, if you're going to go with Envy, you could just have Envy be the assassin in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, which would be a better plot than Florianne's anyway.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Er, how is it good? It does nothing at all to elaborate on the red templars beyond "blaaargh, mooks!," is largely taken up by Envy's machinations, and the idea of a shapeshifting, identity-stealing envy demon doesn't even particularly make sense (demons don't necessarily embody what they represent, which is why not all sloth demons are slothful and why not all desire demons are lustful; rather, they seek to impart it in others). The Fade sequence is... somewhat interesting, but has nothing to do with the templar plot; really, if you're going to go with Envy, you could just have Envy be the assassin in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, which would be a better plot than Florianne's anyway.

 

With the red templars we see the attempted corruption of the order and the conspiracy that existed within the officer corps first hand, we learn more of the details of how they managed to get so far in their plot with the murder of the knight-vigilant. As opposed to the mage path where we see them leave Orlais then suddenly turn up red.

 

Envy was interesting because it was a demon that had a different approach than what we had seen before. And I admit I am not that much into the details of the DA setting, but by your own words of "don't necessarily" it seems that while demons usually don't only embody what they represent, it is not impossible. And while the nightmare sequence technically do not have anything to with the templar plot, it is there to help foreshadow Corypheus and tell about the demon army and the murder of Celene. Fortuneatly, whoever made this level was smart enough to know not to have the entire level take place inside the character's mind as that would make most of what happened inconsequential. 

 

Those are not the only reasons of course, there are others such as the pacing of the level, the variety of the level's different sections, the tone, the characters and just the general writing. 

[Xilizhra]

With the red templars we see the attempted corruption of the order and the conspiracy that existed within the officer corps first hand, we learn more of the details of how they managed to get so far in their plot with the murder of the knight-vigilant. As opposed to the mage path where we see them leave Orlais then suddenly turn up red.

You can get the gist of all of that just by reading the codex entries for red templar enemies, except for the details about the knight-vigilant. I never felt as though the red templars came out of nowhere on the mage path.

 

 

Envy was interesting because it was a demon that had a different approach than what we had seen before. And I admit I am not that much into the details of the DA setting, but by your own words of "don't necessarily" it seems that while demons usually don't only embody what they represent, it is not impossible. And while the nightmare sequence technically do not have anything to with the templar plot, it is there to help foreshadow Corypheus and tell about the demon army and the murder of Celene. Fortuneatly, whoever made this level was smart enough to know not to have the entire level take place inside the character's mind as that would make most of what happened inconsequential.

The thing is, though, that none of this is necessary or even really fitting for the templar issues; again, you could put this into Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, and make that mission rather more interesting as well. The foreshadowing isn't needed either, as we have that in In Hushed Whispers.

[In Exile]

I would change how early we close the breach. I felt that that should have been a threat throughout the game, getting larger the further you got and destroying more places. It just felt way too simple

You mean the end of the game? You place a bandaid on the breach at two different points but it's never closed until the end.