138 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

I saw it as putting stitches on a wound after applying some remedies and waiting for it to desappear only for someone or something to tear open the stitches and reopen the wound.

[Killdren88]

First off. I would see that the start of the game would be changed to where the breach doesn't happen at the very start. I would like for the PC to have been able to wander the new temple grounds ad talk to people and such. And of course talk to people associated with your background. Like if your human you share some words with one of your bothers or cousins who are with the Chantry. Or if your an Elf the Keeper sends one of your fellow clan mates along with you as back up just in case. For the dwarf you can be talking with one of your fellow carta comrades. And for the Qunari your Mercenary company leader and such...All the while maybe having words with Leliana  and Cassandra, but since you are a nobody at the time, they are brief with you.

 

Secondly during the beginning. We get to share words with Cory. But of course either as Janeka or Larius. Supposedly there on behalf of the wardens as Mediators seeing as they are a neutral party in the Mage Templar conflict. After some cut scenes with political talks and demands for peace terms, Cory them makes his Venatori start attacking and he gets rid of his disguise. Croy them talk his normal talking of power and being better, but the only difference here is that he is not the Elder One. He is his Herald. So he detonates the breach and the prologue is for the most part the same.

 

What I'd like to see change next is draw out the Age Templar conflict. Have go beyond just the Hinterlands. Have the PC deal with both Mages and Templars, trying to find common ground between them. And if you got the extra mile in a lot of things throughout the game, you can make a peace agreement between the two. Then the breach is closed and all is well. Then we meet the Elder One with Cory and Samson at its side. This thing is, with this Elder One, it would be a fade creature, but the Elder One is just so terrifyingly powerful he needs the veil totally gone from Thedas before he can reach his maximum. So what we face is essentially a weaker Elder One. Haven gets wrecked as normal, and the Inquisition forms as normal.

 

There are the major bits anyway. Hawke gets Cory the Inquisitor gets The Elder One. Add a dash of a expanded conflict of the civil war in Orlais, and that is about it. For me anyway.

[Catche Jagger]

Er, how is it good? It does nothing at all to elaborate on the red templars beyond "blaaargh, mooks!," is largely taken up by Envy's machinations, and the idea of a shapeshifting, identity-stealing envy demon doesn't even particularly make sense (demons don't necessarily embody what they represent, which is why not all sloth demons are slothful and why not all desire demons are lustful; rather, they seek to impart it in others). The Fade sequence is... somewhat interesting, but has nothing to do with the templar plot; really, if you're going to go with Envy, you could just have Envy be the assassin in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, which would be a better plot than Florianne's anyway.

The reason why there is a high opinion of Champions of the Just is that it is being compared to In Hushed Whispers. Champions of the Just is a good quest, for sure, but it's not the best in the game. However, In Hushed Wispers is highly disappointing with the really, really stupid time travel element which should not have been in the game. Actually, that's the second thing I'd change. No time travel.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

You can get the gist of all of that just by reading the codex entries for red templar enemies, except for the details about the knight-vigilant. I never felt as though the red templars came out of nowhere on the mage path.

 

 

The only codex entry from the red templar enemies that talk about what happened at Therinfal is the Red Templar Knight codex entry IIRC. So while one is made aware that something happened, it's not the same as seeing it first hand and getting a more detailed look at it. 

 

 

 

The thing is, though, that none of this is necessary or even really fitting for the templar issues; again, you could put this into Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, and make that mission rather more interesting as well.

 

I still think Envy and his visions are fitting for the templar path. The nightmare serves as a warning for what could happen if the inquisitor abused their power in the most extreme way and by extension the danger of any group with power and authority should it use those things selfishly.

 

Having a vision that shows the possible danger of a paramilitary organization that also have a strong religious element does seem rather relevant to the templars in my opinion.

 

 

 

The foreshadowing isn't needed either, as we have that in In Hushed Whispers.

 

That goes both ways.

[Xilizhra]

I still think Envy and his visions are fitting for the templar path. The nightmare serves as a warning for what could happen if the inquisitor abused their power in the most extreme way and by extension the danger of any group with power and authority should it use those things selfishly.

 

Having a vision that shows the possible danger of a paramilitary organization that also have a strong religious element does seem rather relevant to the templars in my opinion.

The problem is that Envy is just a cartoonishly evil dictator; none of the visions have anything to do with religious dogma being misused, or the decay of institutions over time, or even the problem of such institutions existing.

 

I would agree that it'd be better to have a quest happen at Therinfal Redoubt, but I think it could be later in the game, after Skyhold, and possibly be linked to Samson's arc personally (with the Shrine of Dumat perhaps linking to Calpernia still).

[Korva]

You mean the end of the game? You place a bandaid on the breach at two different points but it's never closed until the end.

 

We do close the Breach. This is confirmed during In Your Heart Shall Burn, but there are a few inconsistent moments in which NPCs act as if it was still there -- off the top of my head, the one I can remember for certain is during Leliana's personal quest. It makes me wonder if the Breach was originally meant to remain for most of the game, and they failed to find and change all references to that when the main plot changed.

 

(Also, as far as I'm concerned, Champions of the Just is possibly my second-favourite main mission, and Envy is one of the best additions to the setting while time travel is one of the worst things anyone could put in a story. Only two issues weaken Envy's part a bit. The first is the fact that the CRPG genre is unfortunately badly suited to that kind of mental horror trip because the players KNOW their protagonist is an untouchable god whose sanity or mental defenses or willpower NEVER break because there are no game mechanics for that, and every problem can be solved by hitting it until its health bar is empty. For the Envy part to really work, you have to be the kind of person who puts story before game mechanics and ego. The second is the fact that a mental horror trip controlled by a demon whose stated intention is to learn about its victim would work better if we had been given more options to define our character and thus give Envy more specifics to work with.)

[SgtSteel91]

The reason why there is a high opinion of Champions of the Just is that it is being compared to In Hushed Whispers. Champions of the Just is a good quest, for sure, but it's not the best in the game. However, In Hushed Wispers is highly disappointing with the really, really stupid time travel element which should not have been in the game. Actually, that's the second thing I'd change. No time travel.

 

I don't see how some people think Time Travel plots are dumb, but what I wanted was for Fiona and the Mages to respond to the Venatori like Ser Barris and the Templars do to the Red Templars. Have them work with you to bring down the threat. Like, it almost happens but then you get thrown into the future and when you get back Alexius surrenders. I think the hate Fiona and the Mages get would have been lessened if that happened.

[Xilizhra]

We do close the Breach. This is confirmed during In Your Heart Shall Burn, but there are a few inconsistent moments in which NPCs act as if it was still there -- off the top of my head, the one I can remember for certain is during Leliana's personal quest. It makes me wonder if the Breach was originally meant to remain for most of the game, and they failed to find and change all references to that when the main plot changed.

Well, the Breach kind of exists as a series of swirling green clouds that don't go away until the end of the game.

[Korva]

The swirling clouds are not the Breach, though, they are basically scar tissue around what used to be a critical wound in the world. It is definitely closed -- if it wasn't, it would completely change feel of In Your Heart Shall Burn and present a colossal WTF-oversight in the following plot development since it should always remain on the agenda as a huge problem instead of dropping completely off the radar.

 

(Although playing hot potato with story arcs is one of the problems with the game and why the main plot feels rather disjointed at times.)

[Xilizhra]

The swirling clouds are not the Breach, though, they are basically scar tissue around what used to be a critical wound in the world. It is definitely closed -- if it wasn't, it would completely change feel of In Your Heart Shall Burn and present a colossal WTF-oversight in the following plot development since it should always remain on the agenda as a huge problem instead of dropping completely off the radar.

 

(Although playing hot potato with story arcs is one of the problems with the game and why the main plot feels rather disjointed at times.)

It's closed, but not sealed. Corypheus can reopen it in Doom Upon All The World, and it's not completely sealed until the end of that quest. That's why the clouds are gone afterward.

[Duelist]

A small change for me: I'd like the war table mission that's specific to each specialisation to be playable.

Some of them, Leliana's suggestion for an Artificer springs to mind, sounded fun.

[Master Warder Z_]

A small change for me: I'd like the war table mission that's specific to each specialisation to be playable.

Some of them, Leliana's suggestion for an Artificer springs to mind, sounded fun.

I'd have enjoyed that although some of them sound less then pleasant.

[Junebug]

Initially, I would agree about Grey Wardens suddenly listening to demons and corrupt blood mages to end a Blight. It made no sense. If my experience in DA:O were any evidence, Grey Wardens would never stoop so low especially not without suspicion. However, I understand that the Calling is a horrific side-effect to being a Warden that could only be described as schizophrenic auditory hallucinations (ex: something similar to this + nightmares). If the Calling sounded anything like that, I'd freak the hell out hearing that too. If they did it so that the Calling stopped at Orlais and didn't affect Wardens anywhere else, I wonder what reason they would have to come up with for that to happen. People would most likely criticize them for not having it affect Ferelden. But I get where you're coming from. They're actually respectable order and I did everything in my power to help them rebuild.
 

Kinda unrelated but it affects progressing to plot-points: I'd make it so that side-quests weren't mandatory to proceed. On my first playthrough, okay. I admit, I enjoyed it. It's not an innovative mechanic but it was relaxing because of the beautiful environment, added to interesting lore, and had intriguing stories within each area. On my second playthrough however, I just wanna breeze through to see what would happen if I made different decisions. Power-farming gets tedious really fast. So maybe make it so that, for people who've finished the campaign, they have the option not to have to farm power to play again.

[Carmen_Willow]

I would've changed In Hushed Whispers. As cool as it was to see the dark future, I still think time travel should've never been introduced in Dragon Age universe.

I thought Hushed Whispers was the worst. The mages seemed to prove everything bad the templars and even crazy Meredith had tried to tell us all along. Disorganized, yielding the moment the fight gets really hard, selling themselves right back into the same sort of slavery they'd tried to escape, I came out having no respect for the rebel mages at all. I would have done something like have us help the rebel mages fight off a take-over attempt by the Tevinters or something like that. And Time-Travel magic?  Nothing but a McGuffin.

[Shechinah]

It would benefitted to have the rebel mages actually play a more important part in "In Hushed Whispers". The likelihood that not all were keen on Fiona's acceptance of the deal is high and having some be suspecious of the Magister and his forces could also involve acknowledging what happened to most of the Tranquil in Redcliffe with the Inquisitor finding out and revealing it be amongst the things that causes the rebel mages to turn hostile against the Magister and he resorting to time magic to deal with it.

 

Unlike the "Champions of the Just", the mages felt somewhat like background characters in their version of the quest. The only one who seemed to have some presence was Fiona and she really needed a counterbalance. I like the dark future bit but it should have somehow been its own quest because it took over "In Hushed Whispers" so it became the quest rather than being about the rebel mages.

 

I'll edit this tomorrow after some sleep.

[SACanuckin Oz]

For the record: The Grey Wardens have shown in the past that they are extremely corruptible, and are also very self-serving.

The Soldier's Peak story tells how Sophia Dryden used the Wardens to stage an unsuccessful coup in Ferelden, which led to their expulsion from Ferelden in the first place. During the siege at Soldiers Peak, Sophia Dryden actively encouraged (demanded in fact) that the lead mage, Avernus, use blood magic to try and turn the tide of battle. It didn't work out so well for them then either...

 

So, I am not sure they deserve a lot of sympathy on that front. Duncan was also ruthless, and very self serving: in saving the human noble origin, his offer of "saving" included a shortened life span and likely death by darkspawn. And he did not offer to save the mother...even though he could have. He pretty much railroaded the mage (who was actually helping the First Enchanter - in my version at least) into joining the Wardens. And he kept the little - "you might die drinking this beverage" from all the recruits until it was to late for David....

 

It is only to USE them, that I will save their sorry butts

[SACanuckin Oz]

Also, as a previous poster pointed out, the 'Hero of Ferelden' was a complete noob to the order, and more than that made of good moral fiber (helping a friend as mage, trying to save family as noble, saving cousin/helping cousin escape as city elf, etc.). Combine that with Alistair's naive idealistic outlook and Flemeth's manipulations.....

 

They might not really represent the order as a whole. And, as Warden Commander, you had to choose to either save Vigil's keep or Amaranthine, and if you didn't save Amaranthine you burned it to the ground, with everybody inside! And you could make a deal with the Architect, a darkspawn,...

 

Not so noble.

[SACanuckin Oz]

In terms of plot line though, I felt cheated from not having the opportunity to meet with the Templars like I had with the mages. Lord Seeker Lucius just brushed the inquisition aside in Val Royeaux, and with Fiona then inviting the inquisition to Redcliffe, it almost feels like you are being nudged a certain way (even the background chatter in have was like "we will need all those mages...well, the templars could also help, what, really??..are you sure?..)

 

Nudged for sure

 

I probably would have chosen the mages anyway, but feel the templars never got to put their best foot forward

[Xilizhra]

Also, as a previous poster pointed out, the 'Hero of Ferelden' was a complete noob to the order, and more than that made of good moral fiber (helping a friend as mage, trying to save family as noble, saving cousin/helping cousin escape as city elf, etc.). Combine that with Alistair's naive idealistic outlook and Flemeth's manipulations.....

 

They might not really represent the order as a whole. And, as Warden Commander, you had to choose to either save Vigil's keep or Amaranthine, and if you didn't save Amaranthine you burned it to the ground, with everybody inside! And you could make a deal with the Architect, a darkspawn,...

 

Not so noble.

Nothing ignoble about dealing with the Architect, I think.

[Patchwork]

I think Here Lies the Abyss could have made the Wardens actions more understandable if while in the Fade Nightmare used the fake Calling against the group - a song that distracts/entrances different members of the group at several points during the quest. Keep the heckling but if this demon is supposed to be powerful let's see it do something more than the mindreading trick Cole's always using. 

 

It's the same with In Hushed Whispers, it doesn't need to be something big just a cut scene where a captured mage is still resisting the Venatori who is using blood magic to corrupt their mind would be enough to hint at what went on behind the scenes. Seeing Leliana in that quest was great but a southern mage (even Fiona) in her place who hasn't given in, futile as it may be would make the quest more effective. 

 

I'm annoyed that the mages don't get Ser Barris style war table quests instead you either have to pay for their damages or they prove they've learned nothing and try to blow up Skyhold.

[Cyberpunk]

I would like more explanation as to why Fiona doesn't remember meeting me. Also I would like more closure on the Grey Wardens at Vigil's Keep. 

[Duelist]

I'd have enjoyed that although some of them sound less then pleasant.

Any in particular?

The only one that springs to mind for me is the Assassin one, which seems as pointless as it is unpleasant.

[Snapdrgn]

Korva-

 

I am happy to see someone else who hates Morrigan.  I don't see any reason why she has to be the one to help defeat Corypheus.  A better choice would have been Flemeth, considering she is the host for Mythal.  Better still the ancient Elves.

I also see no reason why she has to spend the rest of the game in Skyhold, when she is only involved in a couple missions.   Not to mention how tired I am of seeing her in the war room when I am just  working on side missions at the moment.

 

I resent the fact that this character was forced on us from the beginning of Origins.  Everything about her screams for attention, to an obnoxious degree.  From the way she looks to the way she speaks. 

She is cruel, selfish, manipulative and can't ever speak without sounding sarcastic or getting that snarky expression.  Let's not forget her Dark Ritual BS and her blatantly using the Inquisition  to get to the Well of Sorrows before Corypheus does.

She is always portrayed as the only one who knows anything, and the only one who can save the world.

I too would like the option to remove her from my game. 

If others want to keep her, that's fine, just make that a choice.

[Korva]

Re: the Breach -- Cassandra explicitly calls it both "closed" and "sealed" and says the Inquisition needs a new focus now. IMO it also really wouldn't make sense for people to celebrate as they do if all we'd managed to do was slap a temporary bandaid on. From a narrative perspective, that clear victory sets the tone for the beginning of In Your Heart Shall Burn, and makes the following loss hit harder. It's an important part of the overall emotional rollercoaster, the "lift hill" that kicks the whole ride off, if you will.

 

@Snapdrgn: Exactly. The combination of being an abject assh*le character you can do nothing to or about AND being a big, mandatory show-stealer makes her utterly beyond the pale. Both issues on their own are problematic enough, in combination they're a disaster and make for the only character in Bioware's history whom I truly, honestly hate.

 

Edit: Plus, I really dislike having plot exposition vomited all over me instead of being allowed/expected to use my own resources, wits and allies to find out what's going on and how to solve a problem. She's not needed for anything. Even the vaunted Well isn't needed for anything. We have to figure out how to kill Corypheus' dragon? Fine. It's not like one of our advisors is a veteran of the Fifth Blight, including a high dragon battle and the climactic showdown with the archdemon (unless killed/not recruited). It's not like one of the only two mandatory companions is a dragon hunter from a long and proud line of dragon hunters. It's not like we have killed up to ten high dragons already. It's not like we have a ton of other magical, military and mundane resources at hand. Surely between all of that, we can manage to devise a plan to ground the damn thing (damaging a wingsail or wing muscle will do the trick, as Riordan demonstrated single-handedly), which is the biggest issue with a dragon but not rocket science.

[Digger1967]

They weren't getting possessed they were binding a demon army.

 

Oh, well, that just makes it all better then.. lol.

 

I'll have to go through that section again on my next play through but the dialog that I do recall seemed to suggest that they were planning on allowing themselves to be possessed.  Either way as stupid ideas are concerned either way this one pretty much tops them all.