138 réponses à ce sujet

[Digger1967]

The reason why there is a high opinion of Champions of the Just is that it is being compared to In Hushed Whispers. Champions of the Just is a good quest, for sure, but it's not the best in the game. However, In Hushed Wispers is highly disappointing with the really, really stupid time travel element which should not have been in the game. Actually, that's the second thing I'd change. No time travel.

 

Actually I didn't care for it at all.  Far too many monotonous cut scenes, listening to the envy demon drone on endlessly only to be interrupted by even longer scenes of Cole spouting mostly cryptic nonsense followed by more droning on from the demon.  When you finally do get to the combat portion you have to keep running back and forth from the main hall to the next quest location and back again, which really begs the question, why would I bother allying with these putz's when they can't even defend themselves against a few panzy Red Templars?

 

The loot sucks by comparison, the mage quest has a ton of great schematics including the best one handed long sword schematic I've found yet, whereas the only one I ever seem to get out of the Templar quest is a masterwork seeker shield but only if i have a rogue along and i think only if I've also managed to purchase the deft hands perk before undertaking the quest, which is a pain.

 

The running back and forth is annoying, made even more so by the bug that causes the door to sometimes switch and dump you right back where you started after a ridiculously long delay during which the timer (another terrible feature, IMHO) keeps ticking down - often causing Ser Berris to die or the entire quest to fail as a result.  

 

All in all I'd say it's actually worse as a quest than Wicked Hearts, and boy that's saying something.  So I rarely if ever take the Templar plotline for just those reasons, well that and from a role play perspective I have a hard time justifying wasting time going to find out why the templars all have their panties in a bunch while ignoring the obvious, immediate threat of Alexius and his use of time magic.

 

That and the whole Envy Demon, Lord Seeker thing just really doesn't make a lot of sense.  I replayed Cassandras personal quest recently and tried some different dialog options, in one the young dying seeker Daniel does confirm that it is not the Lord Seeker you meet in Val Royeuax but the Envy Demon, and that the Lord Seeker allowed him to take his form and take control of the Templars.  The only explanation for this apparently is that the Lord Seeker went off his rocker after finding out that the Seekers weren't all they were cracked up to be, which really doesn't work well as a motivation for a perspective change of such a monumental proportion.   The guy is more or less flushing his entire life down the toilet, betraying everything he once stood for and the only explanation were given is that he read the hidden history of the Seekers and found out that it wasn't all sunshine and roses.  Just really doesn't wash for me.

 

So ya, not a fan of the Templar quest myself.  I guess some people enjoy it, but not my cup of tea.

[sorentoft]

I'd make both the templar and mage main story quests doable. If you do both then Samson and Calpernia would work together against you, and you would lose the support of about a 1/4 of the mages and templars due to malcontent with your decision. You would be able to proceed without doing both of the quests (thus close the breach) and get what we have now as well.

 

To me the choice between the two seems like a false one. It's extremely forced that no matter when you choose to do them then they happen at the same time. It's silly to me. They would work just as well, if not better, if you could choose to do them both.

[jedidotflow]

What Pride Has Wrought
Apparently, Morrigan, who's been living on some Maker-forsaken planet for the past decade (except the last year or two), knows more about Elves than my own Dalish Elf. My Dalish elf mage had very, very little to say about anything while at the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan had ALL the things to say about it. I would've changed it up so MY elf was the one instigating the talking with Solas doing the adding or correcting quips. This is MY CHARACTER'S CULTURE, Morrigan! Shut your trap and go be a bird somewhere!

This one change would have made me feel far more involved, rather than just running around and making some squares light up, especially since my elf was romancing Solas at the time. It would've felt like one more nice thing they could've had together.

That would be lore breaking since the Dalish, as DAI showed, are wrong about almost everything.

[Catche Jagger]

Actually I didn't care for it at all.  Far too many monotonous cut scenes, listening to the envy demon drone on endlessly only to be interrupted by even longer scenes of Cole spouting mostly cryptic nonsense followed by more droning on from the demon.  When you finally do get to the combat portion you have to keep running back and forth from the main hall to the next quest location and back again, which really begs the question, why would I bother allying with these putz's when they can't even defend themselves against a few panzy Red Templars?

 

The loot sucks by comparison, the mage quest has a ton of great schematics including the best one handed long sword schematic I've found yet, whereas the only one I ever seem to get out of the Templar quest is a masterwork seeker shield but only if i have a rogue along and i think only if I've also managed to purchase the deft hands perk before undertaking the quest, which is a pain.

 

The running back and forth is annoying, made even more so by the bug that causes the door to sometimes switch and dump you right back where you started after a ridiculously long delay during which the timer (another terrible feature, IMHO) keeps ticking down - often causing Ser Berris to die or the entire quest to fail as a result.  

 

All in all I'd say it's actually worse as a quest than Wicked Hearts, and boy that's saying something.  So I rarely if ever take the Templar plotline for just those reasons, well that and from a role play perspective I have a hard time justifying wasting time going to find out why the templars all have their panties in a bunch while ignoring the obvious, immediate threat of Alexius and his use of time magic.

 

That and the whole Envy Demon, Lord Seeker thing just really doesn't make a lot of sense.  I replayed Cassandras personal quest recently and tried some different dialog options, in one the young dying seeker Daniel does confirm that it is not the Lord Seeker you meet in Val Royeuax but the Envy Demon, and that the Lord Seeker allowed him to take his form and take control of the Templars.  The only explanation for this apparently is that the Lord Seeker went off his rocker after finding out that the Seekers weren't all they were cracked up to be, which really doesn't work well as a motivation for a perspective change of such a monumental proportion.   The guy is more or less flushing his entire life down the toilet, betraying everything he once stood for and the only explanation were given is that he read the hidden history of the Seekers and found out that it wasn't all sunshine and roses.  Just really doesn't wash for me.

 

So ya, not a fan of the Templar quest myself.  I guess some people enjoy it, but not my cup of tea.

 

I feel like responding to this will lead nowhere, but I'll give this a shot. It seems you don't like the envy demon because of "droning," I don't really know how to argue this because if I say that it does more to build up the fight at the end by having us deal with the antagonist throughout, you'll just say you found it annoying so I see this going nowhere objective.

 

I can argue that calling the templars putz's would imply the same of the mages as they show the same, if not a greater degree, of incompetence.

 

I never really cared about loot drops so that wasn't a factor in my judgement. I'll give you that one.

 

During In Hushed Whispers, you must run around to find red lyrium crystals instead of templar veterans. This is a similar practice except it lacks any sense of tension or urgency. It is simply tedious.

 

It makes about as much sense as Fiona's deal with Tevinter and her "not being in Val Royeuax."

[Snapdrgn]

Korva-

 

Good point on the dragons. 

 

Here is something I thought of-

 

If Dagna was able to figure out a way to break Samson's Red Lyrium armor to weaken his defenses and make him vulnerable then she could do the same with Cory's Red Lyrium Dragon.

That would make much more sense and be more logical than the nonsense the writers  pushed on us.

 

Such a big ass deal was made out of getting The Arcanist and then she was barely a part of the storyline considering she was somewhat of an expert on Red Lyrium or at the least, very knowledgeable about it, and the Red Lyrium theme was such a huge factor throughout the game.

 

The thing with the well always seemed like such an 'easy out'  no matter who drinks out of it.  Just my opinion but I wouldn't expect end game fights to be easy or to just have a solution handed to me.

 

 

 

 

[Xilizhra]

Edit: Plus, I really dislike having plot exposition vomited all over me instead of being allowed/expected to use my own resources, wits and allies to find out what's going on and how to solve a problem. She's not needed for anything. Even the vaunted Well isn't needed for anything. We have to figure out how to kill Corypheus' dragon? Fine. It's not like one of our advisors is a veteran of the Fifth Blight, including a high dragon battle and the climactic showdown with the archdemon (unless killed/not recruited). It's not like one of the only two mandatory companions is a dragon hunter from a long and proud line of dragon hunters. It's not like we have killed up to ten high dragons already. It's not like we have a ton of other magical, military and mundane resources at hand. Surely between all of that, we can manage to devise a plan to ground the damn thing (damaging a wingsail or wing muscle will do the trick, as Riordan demonstrated single-handedly), which is the biggest issue with a dragon but not rocket science.

Let's be fair: the only reason the archdemon was killed in the Fifth Blight was because one suicidal Grey Warden was lucky as all hell and managed to ground him. And Cassandra isn't actually a dragon hunter, just from a line of them. In any case, the final battle takes place floating in the sky and the red lyrium dragon probably would have been unbeatable had it not been for our own.

[Digger1967]

Initially, I would agree about Grey Wardens suddenly listening to demons and corrupt blood mages to end a Blight. It made no sense. If my experience in DA:O were any evidence, Grey Wardens would never stoop so low especially not without suspicion. However, I understand that the Calling is a horrific side-effect to being a Warden that could only be described as schizophrenic auditory hallucinations (ex: something similar to this + nightmares). If the Calling sounded anything like that, I'd freak the hell out hearing that too. If they did it so that the Calling stopped at Orlais and didn't affect Wardens anywhere else, I wonder what reason they would have to come up with for that to happen. People would most likely criticize them for not having it affect Ferelden. But I get where you're coming from. They're actually respectable order and I did everything in my power to help them rebuild.
 

Kinda unrelated but it affects progressing to plot-points: I'd make it so that side-quests weren't mandatory to proceed. On my first playthrough, okay. I admit, I enjoyed it. It's not an innovative mechanic but it was relaxing because of the beautiful environment, added to interesting lore, and had intriguing stories within each area. On my second playthrough however, I just wanna breeze through to see what would happen if I made different decisions. Power-farming gets tedious really fast. So maybe make it so that, for people who've finished the campaign, they have the option not to have to farm power to play again.

 

I did like some of the side quests, but some of them even on the first playthrough seemed pretty ridiculous.  I'm trying to save all of Thedas from demons - I really don't have the time or the inclination to track down someone's lost druffalo.

 

I would have liked to seen a lot more stuff that was related to the main story - and for the side quests that do to actually have at least a little impact on it.  I spent a ton of time stumbling all over the Storm Coast and nearly wore out the jump button on my controller only to discover that there was really nothing to be gained by tracking down the Grey Warden camps.  

 

I would have also liked to have seen more interaction with Cory, really by the time I did the final battle i had almost no emotional involvement there at all.  When I killed the Lord Seeker - that had a lot more satisfaction attached because I had just discovered what a real bastage he was after speaking with the dying seeker - but with Cory, eh - it was pretty much just another boss fight.

[berelinde]

Regalyan d'Marcall's horse threw a shoe on the way to the conclave and he was forced to winter over in Jader. He'll show up next game wondering why everyone looks like they've seen a ghost every time his name is mentioned.

[Digger1967]

I feel like responding to this will lead nowhere, but I'll give this a shot. It seems you don't like the envy demon because of "droning," I don't really know how to argue this because if I say that it does more to build up the fight at the end by having us deal with the antagonist throughout, you'll just say you found it annoying so I see this going nowhere objective.

 

I can argue that calling the templars putz's would imply the same of the mages as they show the same, if not a greater degree, of incompetence.

 

I never really cared about loot drops so that wasn't a factor in my judgement. I'll give you that one.

 

During In Hushed Whispers, you must run around to find red lyrium crystals instead of templar veterans. This is a similar practice except it lacks any sense of tension or urgency. It is simply tedious.

 

It makes about as much sense as Fiona's deal with Tevinter and her "not being in Val Royeuax."

 

Well I get what they were shooting for with the Envy demon cut scenes, having your companions with the knives killing each other, etc.  Even on my first play through it really didn't creep me out at all, I mean I barely knew these people.  The running around to find the key shard thing is somewhat annoying in Hushed Whispers, I don't deny that.  But at least there are some variations in location - the Templar quest you run out, grab a vet, run back, then run out, grab a vet, run back - and several of the locations are nearly identical.  It's just tedious, I think my real big issue isn't so much that but rather that buggy door problem, I get hit with it at least once everytime I play that quest, sometimes more because I'm in a hurry and I don't always pay close enough attention to catch the fact that the label on the door switches when I get close enough so that it no longer opens to my desired destination but instead becomes some sort of magical revolving door that dumps me right back where I started after chewing up a ton of time.

 

If they could fix that and maybe add some decent loot I'd probably consider playing the templar side of things more often, as it is the quest is just so aggravating it isn't worth it for me personally.  

 

Ok, so on the mage side of things, The Fiona points you brought up are right on, I have problems with both of those as well.

 

The time magic thing doesn't explain how you would remember the meeting but she wouldn't, if the effect of altering time were localized like that the whole thing would be useless in changing the past so that makes pretty much zero sense.  If it were the mark that allows you to remember the meeting even after Alexius alters time, well that also doesn't quite work because your companions also seem to remember the meeting as well.

 

It also really doesn't make sense why she and the other rebels agree to this deal with Alexius in the first place.  Frankly the whole time travel thing just makes me go ugh from the get go.. lol.

 

I refer to the templars as putz's only because really, that's how they are presented in the quest.  I think it would have been much better if the designers had given the templars a little more credit and not made it so you had to keep running back to save their bacon every five seconds.

 

I know a lot of folks are rah rah mage or rah rah templar for one reason or another and unwilling to discuss the possibility that the group they dislike might have some merit, but me I'm not one of those folks.  i see problems with both quests and both plotlines.  

[PapaCharlie9]

Regarding the collective response that the Grey Wardens are no heroes and got only what they deserved ...

 

Well, it's no accident that they are called the "Grey" Wardens, after all.

 

I never said what it was I liked about the Order, so it was reasonable to assume that my complaint about them being next to destroyed in DA:I was because I thought they were great heroes. Understandable, but not correct.

 

Great tragic heroes is closer to the mark. They are one of the best set-ups for tragic drama on the whole stage of Thedas. The followers of the Qun are the only other set-up that comes close, in modern times anyway.

 

Of course the Wardens do bad things and justify it in the name of their oath. That's what makes them so interesting in terms of story. If they were the Holy Order Of Shiny White Paladins who never did wrong, they'd be boring as heck.

 

So my complaint is that BW is painting themselves into a corner, storywise, by blowing up the Grey Wardens and taking them off the war table. Who is going to represent the moral grey area in the next story? The Inquisition? And Maker help them if there is a Blight.

 

BTW, in a recent replay, I stumbled across another bit of lore that confirms that the Wardens went missing from both Orlais and Fereldan. When you get the Blackwall quest from Leliana, she says,

 

"Several months ago, the Grey Wardens of Fereldan vanished. I sent word to those in Orlais, but they have also disappeared."

 

It's clear that the false calling is intended to be a widespread calamity. While it is an assumption, it seems to make more sense to assume that all Wardens are affected, rather than just those in southern Thedas.

[King Dragonlord]

Quite. I actually thought Here Lies the Abyss was one of the strongest plot arcs. And I thought it truly epitomized the Grey Warden methodology.

 

It made them look like idiots. I can't believe that NONE of them (aside from Straud/Loghain/Alistair) question it. 

 

And just to get ahead of you, them freaking out is not an excuse. They're already committed to a life of fighting Darkspawn with an inevitable premature death. There's no way this would rattle all of them that much, or even most of them. 

 

And there have to be a couple of other Avernus types out there who understand the Taint on a more advanced level. They wouldn't trust an outsider over their own people. Its just stupid. 

[Dabrikishaw]

If I could make 1 change to the plot, it would be not closing the Breach at all until after we defeat Corypheus. Remember how the Darkspawn presence kept growing on the map after each main quest we completed? I wanted the Breach to work like that the whole game. 

[Melbella]

If I could make 1 change to the plot, it would be not closing the Breach at all until the after we defeat Corypheus. Remember how the Darkspawn presence kept growing on the map after each main quest we completed? I wanted the Breach to work like that the whole game.

I was actually surprised my first PT when closing the breach so early on worked. I thought it was a set up for an epic fail.

[King Dragonlord]

If I could change one plot point, it would be that when you close the breach, all the rifts disappear but you still get that encounter with Corypheus so YOU know he's a threat but people doubt you. You conflicts from without and within to try to hold the Inquisition together in the wake of a seemingly invisible threat. Meanwhile Corypheus begins to emerge as a deific figure to fill the void left by the Maker. More and more people begin to question why you would follow the Chantry when Corypheus is real and does real good.

 

Ok, thats not one little change but thats what I would want. You could rework other plot points. Like exposing Corypheus' plot to kill Empress Celene could then serve as proof at least for some that Cory is not what he's cracked up to be.