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[Heidirs]

So, I've always been a little confused over this conversation:

 

 

From one aspect, it sounds like Loghain is suggesting that Anora staged the whole incident at Arl Howe's estate - that she never really was in any danger but played the damsel to get the HoF's attention.

 

From another aspect, it sounds like Loghain is underplaying the idea that Anora may have actually believed her father and Howe were going to kill her and that Howe could have been acting beyond Loghain's knowledge.

 

As I said, I've always been a little confused over how to take this conversation. How do other people view it?

[dragonflight288]

I saw it as one of Anora's little political games mixed with a sense of legitimate danger. 

 

I think Howe really did see merit in killing Anora and pinning the blame on the Warden, but it was a situation exacerbated by Anora herself. She put herself in danger then called on the Warden to save her. Two of the largest names at the Landsmeet, one an outlaw (the warden) who was backing Cailan's half-brother and the other a genuine heartless ****** (Howe) who had amassed so much power for himself that it was near impossible to hit him legally, and he supported her father, who had gone mad over his paranoia regarding Orlais. 

 

I think she manipulated the situation so that the Warden would have to help, used Erlina to make it look like she (Anora) opposed her father since he opposed her and tricked the Warden into thinking that Loghain was going to act against his daughter, and let Howe and the Warden have at it. 

 

No matter who won, she'd have political access to one of two rising powers in the country. 

 

She was in no danger from Loghain, but she found herself in danger from Howe and used the Warden to attempt to gain political leverage. There was a good chance she'd get deposed in the game, and being deposed almost always means execution of the former monarch to prevent them from being an issue in the future. 

[TEWR]

So, I've always been a little confused over this conversation:

 

 

From one aspect, it sounds like Loghain is suggesting that Anora staged the whole incident at Arl Howe's estate - that she never really was in any danger but played the damsel to get the HoF's attention.

 

From another aspect, it sounds like Loghain is underplaying the idea that Anora may have actually believed her father and Howe were going to kill her and that Howe could have been acting beyond Loghain's knowledge.

 

As I said, I've always been a little confused over how to take this conversation. How do other people view it?

 

It's a gambit of Anora's that takes its strengths from facts, with just enough thrown in to sell the story.

 

The political situation is that while Loghain is domineering in his regency through the Civil War, a new player has stepped into the arena with equal power to Loghain: Us. Eamon is now a leader for the Bannorn, while Alistair is a new claimant. Anora sees this and knows that this will provide her what she needs. She needs to cement her place as Ferelden's leader, and the best way to do that is to stand with us against Loghain because the nation is turning against him.

 

So she goes to see Howe, knowing that he is far from subtle, and learns of the plot to murder her. She lets herself be imprisoned and sends Erlina to get the Warden's help, knowing Howe won't think twice about her because in his mind she's an Elf, and Elves aren't fit for important duties. They're just animals that to him need to be "culled" from time to time.

 

She's using us to remove the biggest obstacle to Ferelden right now (Howe) while having us rescue her in a covert means that, should we fail to actually do what she needs (which is not blab about her to Cauthrien, who is Loghain's top agent) she can easily go back to her father's side. 

 

The whole thing is a gambit meant to test the waters and get her into Eamon's estate to form an alliance for the same end goal: ending the Regency. If we reveal that she's trying to turn against her father to Cauthrien -- doing the one thing Anora told us not to do, and thus we end up showing our political stupidity and betraying her in the process -- she comes up with the excellent save that we're trying to capture her, which would allow her to easily return to her father's side.

 

 

 

I got the impression that Loghain and Howe really did imprison Anora for speaking out against him

 

Except Loghain had nothing to do with that. Howe did that on his own when Anora went to see him.

[TEWR]

Where does it say that?

 

Erlina said so, and she was there when it happened.

[Heidirs]

Thanks for the replies. I am reading them... and trying to sort out my feelings/interpretation of the matter...

[Wulfram]

I'd think if they were at the point where killing Anora was even being discussed, and Loghain wasn't taking drastic action against the person suggesting it, then things were pretty dire

[dragonflight288]

I'd think if they were at the point where killing Anora was even being discussed, and Loghain wasn't taking drastic action against the person suggesting it, then things were pretty dire

 

That is if Loghain even knew that Howe was planning it at the time before the Landsmeet. 

[Wulfram]

That is if Loghain even knew that Howe was planning it at the time before the Landsmeet.

Loghain says that Howe suggested it, he rejected it and that was the inspiration for Anora's story. So clearly he did know.

Very possibly Loghain wasn't in a position where he could move against Howe, but that still leaves Anora's position as extremely precarious.

[sylvanaerie]

I think it's a little of both.  

 

Anora was manipulating things to her advantage.  Both Loghain and Anora kind of misrepresent each other.  While I feel Anora was exaggerating her danger (from Loghain) if Howe thought he could get away with it, he would have killed her.  Possibly even turned it to his advantage by claiming the Warden himself did it.  Loghain's motives were partially to protect his daughter, so I don't believe he would have killed her.  Did Anora feel that was a possibility?  I do believe she may have perceived that.  Her father was getting further and further away from her and he does say "There is nothing I would not do for my homeland".  I can see her thinking, what would have stopped Uberpatriot from killing his own daughter if it meant Ferelden's welfare?  He sacrificed Cailan already, and that was his best friend's child, a man he helped raise like a son.  Remember, WE can see what happens at Ostagar, Anora can't.  She has only conflicting reports and the ultimate result to go by which left her a widow and clinging desperately to the throne, and an increasingly unstable father who refuses to provide any kind of answers.  And there is Howe, grabbing as many pieces of the pie as he can get his greedy paws on, influencing her father, making him even more someone she doesn't know.

 

So, did she believe Loghain would kill her?  I think, to some extent she did, even if Loghain himself admits she was never in any danger from him.  We are dealing with perceptions here.  No one in the game has a guide book telling them "This and that is so..." and in this respect I think the writing was very well done.

 

By the same token, Loghain states (in referenced conversation) that Anora would do anything, 'throw anyone under a bus' to keep her throne.  Yet, if you say "Loghain must die" or insist in any way he must be punished, she draws the line and sides with her father.  Regardless of what she wants (the throne), she wants to save her father as well.  She argues logically for his life, and if she loses the argument, accepts what's happened.  She's not one to cry over spilled milk.

[Heidirs]

Loghain says that Howe suggested killing Anora and he rejected it. So, in Loghain's mind, end of story. But I wonder how much control over Howe Loghain actually had. Howe could have made plans to go on with his suggestion, regardless of Loghain's opinion. I think Anora may have genuinely feared for his life from both Loghain and Howe - whether or not she was in any actual danger. Of course Loghain is going to play it up as Anora "dramatizing" it all. But I wonder how much of it was Anora being genuinely afraid for her life while also using the situation to gain leverage with HoF.

[sylvanaerie]

Loghain says that Howe suggested killing Anora and he rejected it. So, in Loghain's mind, end of story. But I wonder how much control over Howe Loghain actually had. Howe could have made plans to go on with his suggestion, regardless of Loghain's opinion. I think Anora may have genuinely feared for his life from both Loghain and Howe - whether or not she was in any actual danger. Of course Loghain is going to play it up as Anora "dramatizing" it all. But I wonder how much of it was Anora being genuinely afraid for her life while also using the situation to gain leverage with HoF.

 

I think it's a little of both.  I think Loghain felt he had more control over Howe than he actually did, and never intended to harm Anora, though Howe's intention was another story altogether.  Anora may have felt her life was in a precarious position, but she did manipulate events to her advantage, playing up the danger angle. And both she and her father were struggling under their own perceptions of the situation, which had some element of truth to it, but were ultimately wrong (IMO).

We won't ever truly know how much was simply perceived and how much was truth, and it is up to each individual to sift through the clues to make their own determination of the situation, though I suspect the answers lie in a mingling of both perspectives.

[andy6915]

She staged it all. If you refuse to support her at the Landsmeet and she turns on you, and you respond with "but he [Howe or Loghain] tried to kill you!"... Her response is "Did he? Are you certain of that? *blahblahblah* I needed to know your mind, Warden".

 

See for yourself, very first outcome in the video.

 

[Heidirs]

She staged it all. If you refuse to support her at the Landsmeet and she turns on you, and you respond with "but he [Howe or Loghain] tried to kill you!"... Her response is "Did he? Are you certain of that? *blahblahblah* I needed to know your mind, Warden".

 

That's interesting. Good find!

[TEWR]

 

 

 If you refuse to support her at the Landsmeet and she turns on you

 

Kinda hard for someone to turn on you if you told them right to their face you weren't going to be allied together in the first place.

[Lavaeolus]

@above: Technically speaking, she can also work against you if you don't actually speak to her, or tell her right to her face that you're going to kill her father.

Neither of these options really mark the most tactful person.

[andy6915]

Kinda hard for someone to turn on you if you told them right to their face you weren't going to be allied together in the first place.

Still proves the point that no one ever actually tried to kill her or that she was ever in danger to begin with, and that your "rescue" was no more than a test of character. She played you right from the start.

That's interesting. Good find!

I found this out last playthrough. I was going to be queen and rule beside Alistair since I was a Cousland. Anora was in my way to that goal, so I told her I wasn't supporting her. It was fine, I got enough support that her and Loghain SOUNDLY lose the landsmeet. She underestimated my political ability, she thought siding against me would make me lose. I still acted shocked though, acted expecting of it made me lose the first time... Not kidding, exact same argument to Loghain both times, but losing if I acted unsurprised and WINNING if I made it clear she manipulated me by acting shocked. Never knew that mattered to winning, but apparently how you respond to her betrayal makes a difference.

[sylvanaerie]

Still proves the point that no one ever actually tried to kill her or that she was ever in danger to begin with, and that your "rescue" was no more than a test of character. She played you right from the start.


I found this out last playthrough. I was going to be queen and rule beside Alistair since I was a Cousland. Anora was in my way to that goal, so I told her I wasn't supporting her. It was fine, I got enough support that her and Loghain SOUNDLY lose the landsmeet. She underestimated my political ability, she thought siding against me would make me lose. I still acted shocked though, acted expecting of it made me lose the first time... Not kidding, exact same argument to Loghain both times, but losing if I acted unsurprised and WINNING if I made it clear she manipulated me by acting shocked. Never knew that mattered to winning, but apparently how you respond to her betrayal makes a difference.

Bolded #1: Actually it does nothing of the sort.  Loghain and Anora both lie through their teeth at the Landsmeet, aside from the warden, who does speak the truth?  How Anora responds is determined by the player himself.  In this situation, Anora is trying to discredit you.  It would hardly do her cause service if she hems and haws and grudgingly admits you 'saved her life'.  If you support her she has a different tale to tell about the situation, where she backs up the 'the warden rescued me'.  Both are things she says at the Landsmeet, do you think both are 'gospel truth'?  Far more believable is the story has some basis in truth, (a half lie being more believable than an out and out fabrication), and the answer lies midway between both extremes, or in her perception of the truth.

 

Bolded #2: How do you perceive telling her to her face "F* you, I'm gonna be queen." constitutes Anora 'betraying you'?  You flat out tell her to her face you won't be supporting her, then expect her to just say "Sure, I don't mind giving up the crown to an untested/untrained bastard who doesn't want it anyway, and the woman--a warden who aren't supposed to be political--who manipulated herself within a stone's throne of Ferelden's throne."  Not the first time I've seen someone complain of this one, but I still think it's a case of a rather inflated version of the 'specialness' of the warden in question.  Apparently some players believe the warden can ****** all over anyone, and they should still be in your cheering section.

[andy6915]

edited too many timed, check next post

[andy6915]

Bolded #1: Actually it does nothing of the sort.  Loghain and Anora both lie through their teeth at the Landsmeet, aside from the warden, who does speak the truth?  How Anora responds is determined by the player himself.  In this situation, Anora is trying to discredit you.

 
Well, no. In fact, her saying that is what makes you gain even more points at winning the landsmeet. Your response to her betrayal effects her own response, and you acting betrayed and lied to and her literally confirming that she toyed with you actually makes her MORE LIKELY TO LOSE HERSELF AND FATHER VOTES. So either she's a complete moron who so misread the landsmeet about as bad as a person could to the point of saying something that actually makes her own position worse practically on purpose, or she was being honest and merely not considering how that would make her come across like. Considering she's often talked about as if she's a master politician, the former is exceedingly unlikely. I suspect complete honesty in that answer, considering.
 
In the case of her backing "my" story, she's merely going along with the official talking points lie. That's all. We don't know it's a lie when she does it because she doesn't want to make us realize she played us for fools, but she herself sees that story as false. From her view, you were just an idiot she played like a fiddle who is best off continuing to think you saved her.
 
It's a betrayal because before she was all "my father has gone crazy and needs to be stopped or we're all f***ed!" to "this Warden is an evil person who is trying to steal the throne out of malice and greed!"... Yeah, no betrayal there . If she really thought that of her father she would still have sided against him for the good of the country because he's lost his mind, and if she didn't think he lost his mind than she was using you as a tool to solidify her own power (a tool she discards when it doesn't do what she wanted) because she told you that she really did think he had lost it meaning she told you a falsehood about her own opinion to better manipulate you.  Either way, that moment really is a betrayal because either way it shows she was just a lying b!tch who either was lying about her father being nuts and needing rescued or lied about how you're trying to steal the throne out of greed.

[Xetykins]

I think what she says about loghain is telling you what you want to hear. She clearly loves her father enough to endanger her well crafted manipulation if you tell her you would kill him. Unfortunately, I cant say the same thing about loghain's feelings for her daughter. Because, damned if I let anyone get away with anyone wanting to kill my daughter to my face and not suffer greatly.

[sylvanaerie]

 
Well, no. In fact, her saying that is what makes you gain even more points at winning the landsmeet. Your response to her betrayal effects her own response, and you acting betrayed and lied to and her literally confirming that she toyed with you actually makes her MORE LIKELY TO LOSE HERSELF AND FATHER VOTES. So either she's a complete moron who so misread the landsmeet about as bad as a person could to the point of saying something that actually makes her own position worse practically on purpose, or she was being honest and merely not considering how that would make her come across like. Considering she's often talked about as if she's a master politician, the former is exceedingly unlikely. I suspect complete honesty in that answer, considering.
 
In the case of her backing "my" story, she's merely going along with the official talking points lie. That's all. We don't know it's a lie when she does it because she doesn't want to make us realize she played us for fools, but she herself sees that story as false. From her view, you were just an idiot she played like a fiddle who is best off continuing to think you saved her.
 
It's a betrayal because before she was all "my father has gone crazy and needs to be stopped or we're all f***ed!" to "this Warden is an evil person who is trying to steal the throne out of malice and greed!"... Yeah, no betrayal there . If she really thought that of her father she would still have sided against him for the good of the country because he's lost his mind, and if she didn't think he lost his mind than she was using you as a tool to solidify her own power (a tool she discards when it doesn't do what she wanted) because she told you that she really did think he had lost it meaning she told you a falsehood about her own opinion to better manipulate you.  Either way, that moment really is a betrayal because either way it shows she was just a lying b!tch who either was lying about her father being nuts and needing rescued or lied about how you're trying to steal the throne out of greed.

 

It isn't a betrayal.  Betrayal implies you were actually supporting each other (or on the same side--and you aren't).  Anora wants Loghain stopped, not dead and she expects you will kill him if you remove all voice from her--even if you support her, she will withdraw her support from you if you insist her father must die.  Ultimately, Anora is doing this for Anora first and foremost, her father and Ferelden are second.  Telling her to her face you won't support her and expecting her to cheer you on to the throne is naive and simplistic, and not very politically minded either.

 

I will say, yes, she's lying to some extent.  She did manipulate the situation to her advantage, but can you honestly tell me you think Howe wouldn't have killed her (and remember, he got away with a lot of stuff Loghain never knew about) if he had an opportunity--especially if he could blame the warden, something Eamon himself will point out to you?  Do you completely discredit all other dialogue in the game and cast her in so simplistic a villain's role?  I rather think she's a complex and interesting character (for all that she has a smaller role in the story) than that Bioware's writers just wrote a two dimensional 'manipulative ******' character.

 

BTW as a 'person' I would dislike Anora immensely, but as a character I adore her nuances.  She is manipulative and a ****** and she does lie.  But I argue the extent of her lie isn't as great as you perceive. I don't believe it's 'all a lie' or 'all the truth', but somewhere middle ground.  And I've done too many "I don't like you" scenarios to see her turnaround as a 'betrayal'.  It's even more fun to say "I'll support you, but I'm gonna kill Loghain" have her turn on me and STILL give her the crown.  Yea, I like dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight, but mostly I like Alistair far too much to inflict the throne on him.

[Heidirs]

 She did manipulate the situation to her advantage, but can you honestly tell me you think Howe wouldn't have killed her (and remember, he got away with a lot of stuff Loghain never knew about) if he had an opportunity--especially if he could blame the warden, something Eamon himself will point out to you? 

 

This. Like, a lot.

 

No matter how much Loghain insists she wasn't in danger, and no matter how much Anora says she knows her father would never actually harm her, Howe freaking would, regardless of what Loghain told him to do. And I can't get passed that.

 

Anora most likely was in danger from Howe, whether she recognized it or not. I mean, I doubt she had the means to lock herself in the room and put wards on it. Howe wanted her out of the way. He might have not have planned to kill her, but I'd bet money he was thinking about it - weighing the advantages and disadvantages of disobeying Loghain. Then Anora takes the opportunity to send word that she's in danger. She uses the rescue so she can get in the know with the Warden. The Warden's stance, effects how she speaks at the Landsmeet.

 

So yes, she "staged" the rescue to get in the good graces of the Warden, but I still have trouble believing she was never in any danger from Howe (even if Anora didn't see it). That guy did a lot of crazy ****.

 

Yeah... I think that's how I'm feeling about this scene. 

[andy6915]

It isn't a betrayal.  Betrayal implies you were actually supporting each other (or on the same side--and you aren't).  Anora wants Loghain stopped, not dead and she expects you will kill him if you remove all voice from her--even if you support her, she will withdraw her support from you if you insist her father must die.  Ultimately, Anora is doing this for Anora first and foremost, her father and Ferelden are second.  Telling her to her face you won't support her and expecting her to cheer you on to the throne is naive and simplistic, and not very politically minded either.
 
I will say, yes, she's lying to some extent.  She did manipulate the situation to her advantage, but can you honestly tell me you think Howe wouldn't have killed her (and remember, he got away with a lot of stuff Loghain never knew about) if he had an opportunity--especially if he could blame the warden, something Eamon himself will point out to you?  Do you completely discredit all other dialogue in the game and cast her in so simplistic a villain's role?  I rather think she's a complex and interesting character (for all that she has a smaller role in the story) than that Bioware's writers just wrote a two dimensional 'manipulative ******' character.
 
BTW as a 'person' I would dislike Anora immensely, but as a character I adore her nuances.  She is manipulative and a ****** and she does lie.  But I argue the extent of her lie isn't as great as you perceive. I don't believe it's 'all a lie' or 'all the truth', but somewhere middle ground.  And I've done too many "I don't like you" scenarios to see her turnaround as a 'betrayal'.  It's even more fun to say "I'll support you, but I'm gonna kill Loghain" have her turn on me and STILL give her the crown.  Yea, I like dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight, but mostly I like Alistair far too much to inflict the throne on him.

I will honestly tell you Howe wouldn't have. He wouldn't risk Loghain's wrath. And if you tell him you're there to save her, Howe basically tells you "the queen does so love her games" or something like that, meaning even he thinks you're "saving" her on fluffed up reasons even Howe obviously thinks are full of crap. If he reacted different I might believe you, but even Howe backs up the idea that she was just toying with you.