820 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

I'd have to agree with the view that emergent story moments feel transient and unimportant. Largely this is due to the inability of games to incorporate such moments into any larger narrative. I remember one guy relating his Skyrim experience where a quest-giver was talking, and a bear came up and killed her and then left. He loved it and said it was his favorite moment because of how unexpected yet poignant it was (the quest-giver was talking about what a crappy life she had led), and all I could think of was, "I'd reload instantly." The moment means nothing to the larger narrative: she doesn't get a funeral, you can't relate the experience to anyone or incorporate it as anything but headcanon, and ultimately it feels like a hindrance to my experiencing the game's content, rather than being content itself.
 
It's no surprise based on the above preferences of course that I dislike all the Elder Scrolls games and usually stop after about 20 hours of playing them.

I agree with everything you've said, though the other thing that's always made it difficult for me to enjoy such storytelling is how random it is. Yes, I know that's part of the charm, but it also means it's unreliable. Honestly I've rarely had anything terribly interesting happen to me when I play games where that's possible and when it does it's often an annoyance because I'm in the middle of doing something else.

Occasionally it works well for headcanon narrative, I'll grant. For example, first time in Skyrim, after receiving the summons from the Greybeards I started heading west trying to get to Windhelm. I got thoroughly lost and stumbled onto a shrine to Talos in the middle of the woods. I didn't think much of it at that moment, but as I finally figured out where to go and approached Windhelm I began to work it into a story in my head. The story about how my Dragonborn, a Nord former mercenary, disturbed by the sudden revelation of his destiny, stumbled blindly through the woods until he came across the shrine and became inspired by the belief that his newfound destiny was a sign from Talos and that he should defend the Nordic ways. And that's how Brand the Talos Fanatic was born.

...I'm not entirely sure that counts as emergent storytelling, but I'd take that over an NPC being killed by a bear while I'm trying to talk to them any day.

[phaonica]

I find perspectives that enjoy emergent gaming fascinating, because I've never enjoyed it. A huge part of that is that it's so limited that to me it's always immersion breaking. To me the richest and most enjoyable part of RP comes from interaction. Having chaotic events happen within the confines of a game engine is, if anything, immersion breaking for me.

Not challenging your perspective; just finding it fascinating.

It's true that a lot of current "emergent" stories have to do with glitches or some kind of unrealistic physics. Or its based on interacting systems that have no story context (such as the stories created when playing The Sims games). I can understand how having an event happen that makes you say "that probably wasn't intended" could be immersion breaking. To me, the idea of emergence is fascinating because it could be used to create truly reactive worlds that grow and change based on your actions and decisions. I don't know exactly how it could work, and the illusion of emergence might be good enough, but I think that it could be used for some really interesting storytelling, even if perhaps, no one has really managed it yet.

Edit: And just to clarify, while "emergent" does seem to connote "random", I think that it could be used for something more interesting than that. I'd like to think that emergent systems could be reactive to your actions, rather than being the random and often silly results of systems that supposedly have their own ambient agendas.

I don't want to get too off topic. I just wanted to point out that I do think Revan Reborn has a point about how too many choices can get out of hand.

Edit2: I also think that a game that relied *entirely* on emergent storytelling would probably not work very well. There would have to be a balance of active and reactive storytelling. Otherwise you end up with a game with countless insignificant stories but no plot.

[LPPrince]

I'd rather define a character myself rather than have it all predefined for me, so I'll take the DAO/DAI approach.

 

Though if a happy medium can be found, I'd like that too.

[Knight of Dane]

Before Inquisition came out I would have religiously disagreed with you.

 

Now I am not so sure:

 

Varric gives you the idea that he will maybe return to Hawke and travel with him/her plus romance interest and surviving sibling.

 

Funny thing is that, for some reason, that sounded much more appealing to me than continuing to play my Inquisitor.

[Heimdall]

Before Inquisition came out I would have religiously disagreed with you.
 
Now I am not so sure:
 
Varric gives you the idea that he will maybe return to Hawke and travel with him/her plus romance interest and surviving sibling.
 
Funny thing is that, for some reason, that sounded much more appealing to me than continuing to play my Inquisitor.

In all fairness, Inquisition has the disadvantage of being originally designed for humans only and later adapted for multiple races.

[Knight of Dane]

I suspect it's also the MMO format of the majority of the quests. DAII just felt more interactive and alive to me.

[Heimdall]

I just wanted to point out that I do think Revan Reborn has a point about how too many choices can get out of hand.

Well, certainly. I just disagree with where he wants to draw that line.

[Heimdall]

I suspect it's also the MMO format of the majority of the quests. DAII just felt more interactive and alive to me.

You know, watching Bioware release games has always felt a bit like watching a pendulum to me. Whenever they try to correct something, they overshoot and create new problems even when they solve the old ones.

[Knight of Dane]

Pretty good description actually.

[frostajulie]

Yep. I think people need to think about it more broadly. Look at Mass Effect. Look at how being human and overcoming the odds was such a crucial element of the trilogy. That wouldn't have been possible had Shepard had the choice of being a hanar or an elcor. BioWare would have had to dilute the experience being Shepard is a "Spectre" and that would have been the extent of the character development. It's just not as compelling.

 

I understand the want for there to be more races, but you just end up hurting the story and hurting character development in general. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's just not financially feasible nor practical.

Not true my DAO experience begs to differ.

[Toasted Llama]

You know, watching Bioware release games has always felt a bit like watching a pendulum to me. Whenever they try to correct something, they overshoot and create new problems even when they solve the old ones.

That's precisely how I felt when people began to complain about  "too much empty space" for DA:I

Because one of the major complaints about DA:2 was "not enough space! so tiny omg why?!"

[Shechinah]

(to Revan Reborn) You know, I've never been fond of that proverb because I could never see sense in it. What's the entire point of me having a cake and not being able to eat it? Am I suppose to enjoy its external structure, admire its color and possibly elaborate appearance? Am I sharing it, am I throwing it, am I suppose to give it to someone else? Is the cake a gift? Why is it that I have that goshdarn cake but cannot eat it too?

 

The proverb "Like throwing pearls before swines" makes sense but the goshdarn cake proverb still does not even after years!

[phaonica]

You know, watching Bioware release games has always felt a bit like watching a pendulum to me. Whenever they try to correct something, they overshoot and create new problems even when they solve the old ones.

I feel the same way. I only have experience with Dragon Age, but it seems like they overcorrected between DA2 and DAI. Overall, I like DAI better and would rather they not overcorrect back in the other direction again, but that's just me. I'll certainly be curious to see what they do with the next game.

[Morroian]

I highly recommend you play Skyrim. It is the epitome of a game with choice, and that often works to its disadvantage. You can choose to be Dragonborn, the Dark Brotherhood Listener, the Archmage of the College of Winterhold, the leader of the Companions, and the leader of the Nightingales all in one. Even though some of these groups are sworn to hating the other (the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild do not like one another), you have the choice to join and lead all of them.

 

Its up to the player to make those choices its hardly the fault of the game.

 

He will certainly be there, but he's not crafting the story (the writing team is). This is how the writing process works. The lead writer crafts and develops the main story. The other writers craft and develop side quests, companions, etc. The creative lead provides vision and direction over the entire project, but more so gives advice and feedback rather than making any definitive or concrete decisions. If Walters was calling the shots, he'd still be the lead writer like he was in ME3. The reason he is not is because BioWare wants to go a new direction with Mass Effect after the original trilogy.

 

If they wanted to go in a completely new direction he wouldn't be working on the game at all. If he is involved in plotting he is involved in determining the direction of the story. These things aren't necessarily set in stone.

 

DA:I was the best selling game shortly after release. You have to compare ME 3 5 months sales to DA:I current sales.

 

I think DAI was touted as the best selling DA game not BW game overall.

 

In all fairness, Inquisition has the disadvantage of being originally designed for humans only and later adapted for multiple races.

 

But DAO had a similar issue.

[phaonica]

(to Revan Reborn) You know, I've never been fond of that proverb because I could never see sense in it. What's the entire point of me having a cake and not being able to eat it? Am I suppose to enjoy its external structure, admire its color and possibly elaborate appearance? Am I sharing it, am I throwing it, am I suppose to give it to someone else? Is the cake a gift? Why is it that I have that goshdarn cake but cannot eat it too?
 
The proverb "Like throwing pearls before swines" makes sense but the goshdarn cake proverb still does not even after years!

I've always felt the same way about that proverb, lol.

[stop_him]

I agree so long as the character is not human. I'm not playing a fantasy game with elves, dwarves and qunari--oh my! to invest my time in a boring ass human.

[Heimdall]

I've always felt the same way about that proverb, lol.

Yeah, why would I want to have a cake if I couldn't eat it?

[Heimdall]

But DAO had a similar issue.

As I recall, Gaider said in an interview or something that the reason they didn't want to do origins again was because it meant front loading most of the race specific content (They have a word budget to be concious of). Inquisition often felt like there were more race acknowledgements and specific content scattered in the game itself than Origins, though it could have been better.

[duckley]

I have no problem playing as a human. It is my preference actually. There are games that let you chose race and games that dont. If you dont like playing humans stay away from ME, DD, Witcher, Diablo, etc.

[Patient.Zero]

I have no problem playing as a human. It is my preference actually. There are games that let you chose race and games that dont. If you dont like playing humans stay away from ME, DD, Witcher, Diablo, etc.

 

I really don't think you should be telling people what games they should play. What if I were to say to you that you shouldn't be playing Dragon Age Origins or Inquisition because of the race selection that is available to you in those games? You might be inclined to tell me that you are free to enjoy whatever games you wish, and what you choose to play should be none of my business. Please extend that courtesy to others. 

[wolfhowwl]

If they do this I hope the protagonist is better designed than Hawke. He looked like a jackass.

FemHawke was hot though.

[Rannik]

Oh look, people is throwing VGChartz's bullshit around... again.

[AlanC9]

Again, this goes back to my point if Mass Effect is obviously more popular and successful, perhaps going the defined protagonist with one race option is the best way to go. Clearly, that is more profitable than what DAI did. Outside of a few people on BSN that keep promoting multi-race, there is no reason to believe that the general populace wants multi-race in BioWare games, nor that they care.

Why couldn't you interpret greater ME sales to mean that fantasy is the problem, and ME did better because it was sci-fi? Or ME did better because it had shooter mechanics? If I was less lazy I'd come up with more potential interpretations.

Also, you really shouldn't jump from sales to profitability that way. Unless I've missed something, public data on the production budgets is even sketchier than the sales data.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 avril 2015 - 03:19 .

[Draninus]

Let the DAII hate flow. It fuels me. In all seriousness though, DAII is a much better story than many give it credit. I had a much deeper connection to my Hawke than I ever did my Inquisitor or my Warden Commander.

 

You do realize that this is purely your personal preference, right?  This will never happen due to Bioware effectively morphing completely into EAware, but my personal opinion is that DA4 should be a true spiritual successor to DAO, which is the only game in this series that is a quality gaming experience, IMO.

[wolfhowwl]

Uh...


Where the f*ck is VGchartz getting their data from when Bioware/EA isn't releasing any numbers and the only numbers you can't "guess" don't include digital sales?

And if you don't believe Bioware's word on the fact that DA:I is their best selling game up untill now, you might as well drop this argument entirely because in that case you can't believe anyone.

There is a reason why VGchartz is not considered a reliable source.